I'm Sorry, but that is just dumb. On a whole bunch of levels.

Who do you think makes more money if anything with those after-market mods installed needs an expensive certification process to be legal?


@DeathStrobe

I'm not saying it's nanotech, but...

See, that's the icing on the cake - they can't even use "because nanites" as an excuse, because they decided to slag them all for zero reason for 5E.

I mean seriously - even if we buy that that all extant nanites went bonkers and imploded somehow (as well as magically slagging things that were nanite-forged but which contained zero actual nanites themselves after the manufacturing process), why the hell can't people just make new nanites?

If it was some one-time thing like a "virus", shouldn't newly crafted and unexposed nanites be fine? Shouldn't isolated nanites likewise be fine? And if it's not just a one-time thing, surely that means it's some new quirk of reality and physics akin to magic and technomancy that's causing the nanites to fail? But even then, why can't they go back to older versions of nanites? If your Nanobot 3.0 keeps crashing, why not dust off and boot up Nanobot 1.7 instead?

I guess we're lucky we even got any rationale at all? I mean, they flat out retconned skinlinks into never having existed without a word of mention.

~Umi

Clearly people forgot how, just like they forgot that attaching literally everything to the Matrix was a bad idea despite Deus giving them a several week long and inventively bloody clinic on exactly why.

Admittedly "nanites" was the magical cure-all excuse in 4th and got got nuked with the edition change (which I'm damn happy about).

So, the official 5th Edition mem: http://i.imgur.com/JANwGDS.jpg

- Making new nanites when something causes nanites to go haywire obviously would be as useful as making new children in the face of a deadly plague
- Nanoforged stuff was not supposed to contain any live nanites after manufacture, but if the nanites went haywire...
- I haven't read anything indicating that "fresh" nanites in hermetically sealed environment don't work

Could you provide me with a page number for the optional rule to ignore limits? I can't find it...

Well if they did work, nanoforging would be back in business.

~Umi

That's not dumb. That's awesome. What's dumb is the idea that the Matrix is so invasive to everyday life in the Sixth World and yet it can't do anything worth wild, because apparently no one should run with wireless on, and everything should be unhackable and skinlinked.



I don't think the problem is that new nanites can't be made, but that no one would trust them. Horizon had a marketing campaign that literally reprogrammed people using nanites and on top of that there is some kind of mysterious Matrix threat that is able to steal your body with seemingly any nanotech.

Skinlinks aren't retconned out - they just haven't been reprinted yet, per various commentary. I get the impression that they're not sure how they want them to work yet.

And I'm gonna guess that the nanopocalypse had SOMETHING to do with Dissonance.

i'm gonna go ahead and take a guess as to how skinlinks will work.

regular use: blah blah blah blah blah, we didn't really bother putting anything here because we're still trying to go all passive-aggressive on you and force you to agree with us that connecting your spinal cord and eyeballs to the matrix so that people can start fires in them is a great idea.

wireless bonus: your skinlink actually works the way it should work, except through the matrix because reasons.

there you go, the summary of what i expect the official version of skinlink to look like. you saw it here first.

Regular use: As per 4th but tasers your genitals for 12s every minute.

Wireless: Reduces damage to 4s.

12P and 8P.

Evo has working nanoforges, per R&G. And manufacture processes are always background info, not something which needs to be mentioned explicitly...

They slag nanites in 5E, then bring them back in the first splat book. What.

~Umi

Evo, the guys with the Mars base, the guys where this whole nanotech problem started, you don't think that's at all suspicious that they're the ones with working nanoforges?

So... Took an actual look at Runa and Gun. Let me get this straight. Out of all the Martial arts in the world, not ONE mention of Kung Fu (with its hundred variations of martial training) makes it into the book? NOT ONE? Are you kidding me? I am speechless once again. *sigh*

Not really, no. It is just another example of the design team not having a coherent idea on the matter. *shrug*

It is, Wushu is listed as a variant of Karate. Game mechanically, there wouldn't be much of a difference between them.


Why do you assume that the writers are idiots and don't know their own metaplot?

No, they are saying that a triple-A is able to operate undefined "nanoforges" (which may just mean manufacture at nanometer scales) in a hermetically sealed environment that's literally not of this world. That's about as far removed from cure-all drexlerian nanobots as having working nuclear power plants is removed from a 50$ wristwatch drawing energy from quantum fluctuations.

Before you get too fussy, there is technically a Kung Fu in the book: Wudang Sword (part of the Wudang Quan style) is the basis for a lot of internal martial arts. For example: Tai chi.

Also as far as martial arts styles go a lot of the martial arts styles are named one thing, but can be used to refer to any number of abilities (Which is the fluff way of simplifying the crunch as it were.) Under "Karate" (japanese) it indicates that similar styles would be Hwarangdo (korean), Wushu (chinese, also can be termed as kung fu) and Zen do kai (australian, derived from karate)

Now should they have done a better job of illustrating the more major martial arts styles and giving them more specific rules? Sure! But from a setting that uses the japanese term "omae" to mean "friend," well, you can only expect so much.

It's not so much that the writers are idiots, but that managment is.

Most of the writers are freelancers who essentially work in vacuums. They aren't all on one big team, they don't work together, they get bits and pieces farmed out to them individually with rough guidelines, and then CGL "edits" their individual contributions together. (And we all know how stellar their editing is, neh?)

If there does happen to be some grand unified vision of the Shadowrun metaplot floating around somewhere at CGL, it's clearly not being properly conveyed to the people who actually write the books. It's kind of like a page out of the George Lucas book of directing.

~Umi

Thank god it didn't - now no one can say "I know kung fu".

Oooh... An honorable mention for an art that is much more influential than something like Carromoleg, Gun Fu, or even Karate. So not impressed.

What? And completely ignore a defining moment of Skillwires? The Shame.

Sadly, skillwires can't teach an MA style.

Because the products they publish show no knowledge of their own metaplot, and plenty of evidence of idiocy? I mean, giving folks the benefit of the doubt is well and good, but this is what, the sixth sourcebook in a row with major holes and flubs?

Mechanically it'd be treated as the same as Karate. If you want it to be so insanely different from karate, then make your own martial art. It's clearly not that difficult. You name the style and then pick some maneuvers. What more do you want?

Mechanically, what would you do different from Karate?

Yep, Sadly. And yet, you can get a Tutorsoft to learn them (at least you could in SR4), go figure.

Mechanically it is no where at all the same as Karate (though some sub-styles could/would be similar enough). And the fact that the Style has been around for a good lot longer than 90% of the listed styles in the book, you think it would get more of a mention than a mere byline. And yes, I will likely be the one to design the various styles and sub-styles of Kung Fu. But you know what, I should not have to. Again, one of the most prominent (and influential) styles should have had its own section.

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question.

How is, using Shadowrun's mechanics of skill + attribute + modifier, how is Karate and Kung Fu going to be different? I assume they'll both still add + 1 or so modifier. So what difference does the flavor text make to how the mechanics are in SR5?

And this is why I subscribe to the UMAT (Unified Martial Arts Theory).

Care to highlight said differences as they're relevant to the mechanics? There is certainly some commonality to be found, I'm sure - I'm more familiar with one side of the comparison than the other, but going to history for a second, the two do descend from the same root.

Notably, though, the existing Martial Arts rules are kind of bad at handling the variance of different styles within a martial art - for example, there are some styles of karate which, to build mechanically, you'd have to combine with Jiu Jutsu to have a character know. But that's getting into a pretty serious level of detail.

The level of detail you mention is exactly what I am looking for. And yes, they do a poor job of it in my opinion.
As for the Actual GAME mechanics, Still going over the Maneuvers - they cannot apparently put them all in the same place for ease of reference. And yes, there are many commonalities to be found; the flavor lies in the Differences, though. Otherwise why have styles at all?

And While the UMAT™ that Sendaz mentions is okay, I strive for a bit more detail, and definitely subscribe to MUCH more detail in the fluff. Definitely more than the throw away line that was included in the book itself.

you can't teach kung fu outside of china. it is one of the nation's treasures. if you do, don't go back to china, or let anyone know. It's why Bruce Lee was killed because he started teaching non-chinese, plus they extended their revenge and killed his son. Don't mess with the Triads.

So, since organized gangs & crime grew when the world when down in shadowrun and stayed relevant, i'm sure any school teaching or advertising the instruction of kung fu BY a chinese national; the triads would probably burn it down. and kill em.

I'm a huge martial arts fan, i haven't seen a listing of all the styles in Run and gun, but wushu is a style of kung fu.

Why am I not surprised?

Why am I not surprised that the Developers cannot put out a quality product? Hmmm, I wonder. *shrug*

Yes, I know - And yet it is relegated to a byline rather than a relevant slot of its own. And yet we get Arts that are hardly a blip in the history of Martial Arts (and even some made up crap), comparatively, and they get their own section. Disconnect Much?

The amount of political conspiracy people attach to VIP deaths never seizes to amaze...

Yeah, tell me about it.

But there's nothing célèbre and glamorous about dying from an obscure (to the public, at least) medical condition such as cerebral edema, or being killed by an undetected squib load produced by simple negligence, so some folks feel the need to reinvent reality to be more in line with the fantasies that surround the person they place on a pedestal.

~Umi

Hell, Bruce Lee was teaching Jeet Kun Do, not kung fu...

But he was The Best At Fights™ and there's no way he could have died to something lame like a bad reaction to pain killers, instead of something super exciting that would make for a great movie!

It had to be something badass and dangerous, like the Triads! It totally makes sense that they would hate him and secretly kill him in a vast conspiracy, because the Triads totally care more about a movie star teaching martial arts than they do about pushing drugs, pimping out prostitutes, running illegal gambling rackets, and all sorts of other actually profitable crimes! They'd definitely risk a massive investigation into the death of one of the most famous men in the world for absolutely zero material gain!

/sarcasm

~Umi

Um... we ARE talking about a game, right? A game in a setting rampant with conspiracies. I assume the "you can't teach kung fu outside of China" is in reference to the fact that it's not detailed in R&G, thus requiring some conspiracy to explain (you know, like "we wanted to rebalance the price of cyberware" requiring some contrived "all nanites blew up everywhere" conspiracy), and not a serious real-world comment.

And if they are going to highlight that explanation as a possibility, make sure it is detailed somewhere, because when you are playing IN CHINA, you SHOULD BE ABLE TO LEARN KUNG FU.
The fact that is it glossed over shows they did not even care THAT much (or someone does not consider King Fu to be of any significant importance).

Ok, going from Wikipedia here for a moment "Kung Fu" originally meant reaching a high skill in something, often but not limited to martial arts, while Wushu being the actual martial arts practiced in China. SO what exactly is the problem?

It is only mentioned as an afterthought. Should have its own section. Considering that there are over a hundred or so sub-styles, you would think that it would hold more importance than a Martial Art that is complete fantasy in origins, but has its own section. Hell, it has had FAR more influence than even some "Modern" martial arts, which ALSO have their own sections. *shrug*

As for the veracity of Wikipidia - Hopefully you don't trust everything you read there as infallible and inviolate. It is a good place to start, but you should always dig deeper.

As I only have glancing interest in this whole discussion, I figured that any major flaw in that Wikipedia sentence would be corrected here.
So, the only problem is that you want Kung Fu/Wushu mentioned over an other martial arts like Karate? Thats all?

And using Wikipedia again, Wushu is now only 60 years old. It does have several ancient and no doubt important sub styles, but as a whole I don't see why it would be all that important except to Hollywood.

The issue is that they mostly ignored it (except as an afterthought, at best) and when it was brought up, was dismissed out of hand as irrelevant. Just more of the same, in fact. So, The way it was treated and then the way it was diminished when addressed irritates me a bit. That is all.

In the end, I will likely work stuff up for it in my spare time (as well as many of its sub-styles - Fluff Matters, at least to me). Though I do maintain that I should not have to do so for something that has the history that Kung-Fu (Wushu) has.

I sounded pretty much like he was talking about the real world...in-universe, the reply would be "which China?"

ok that was just a theory. find another actor who died like brandon lee. any. his dad died age 32 in the prime of his life INN hong kong, 1973 where he didn't live. my bad for de-railing. he invented jeet kune do, he learned kung-fu.

kung fu is a general term. it's chinese boxing basically, the default. wushu is a more practiced fighter. there are many many styles of kung fu. they all mostly blend though since china wasn't united until 200bc but martial arts was practiced before.

karate & judo is Japanese. tae kwon do is korean. tang soo do is korean meets chinese styles. muay thai is from thailand. jiu jitsu is new japanese technique which spread to brazil in the late 1800's. europe wrestled and boxed. and russians punched each other in the head. and now we have mma! there's some history

besides china doesn't exist in shadowrun. so maybe kung fu doesn't exist! who knows what these tricky writers are doing!! just learn tae kwon do do it

As we just discussed in the other R&G thread, mix-ups between live rounds/weapons and blanks, training dummies, or toys are a thing that happens. Hence the fancy muzzle plug on rifles during exercises with blanks, they don't just help the weapon cycle, but also stop accidentally loaded live round (or at least slow them a bit...).


People who travel the world might get ill or or even die abroad. News at 11...


Well, I expect a situation like China and Taiwan today: Everybody is the one real China