WHAT? Cybereyes don't cut off full bodily perception?!?!?!?!?! I gotta talk to my GM....

I'd stick to rules, only I'm up against someone who seems to know the BBB less than even I do.

Lol, if you guys say so. Got to love discussion Trolls. I wouldn't want you rigger type to feel inadequite. I'd sure I'd be dead even tho I won initittve and surpise, roll 21 (ok some is combat pool) only dice for that AR, partial cover during firing, and yellowjacket has a whole what 2 body and 3 armor. Yeah, ok. If someones firing full auto AP rounds at you the last place you want to be is in a yellowjacket 50 meters up. Seriously guys, the pilot would have been dead long before he even thought about firing let alone before that blender spun up. Only reason I did the flash was to freak the GM out and because he had no shot until we commited.

Not to mention that the gun should've been spun up as soon as they got close…

~J

IIRC miniguns can spin without firing tex

You can, and in real life, you don't even need to spend a ridiculous amount of time spinning up, despite what canon says. But in canon, you can't spin up without shooting.

Are you certain on that? I'm pretty sure I remember a separate time limit on spinning than that enforced by ammo levels (batteries or somesuch)…

~J

I could be wrong. I'm remembering this more from another thread than from the CC. Give me a moment to check.

[edit]

Wow 1 combat turn, I thought it was just 1 combat phase. I must agree I think the Vindi rules are nuts but I think its to offset the awesome power of a Vindi leadshower. I don't think it would matter much, those yellowjackets aren't meant to take a beating.

We could beat this subject to death but I stil don't see anything saying vision thru sensors protects completely from flash. It could give flare comp but that gives only a -2 , not much if your close enough to take the stun. Ultrasound might help but I'm honestly unclear on the rules for how it replaces normal vision.

Yep, but does allow for spinning without firing, unless I'm misreading (which I might be. It is, after all, four in the morning and I haven't slept for the past two nights).

~J

Kagetenshi any GM that allows for that kind of dry spin (for lack of a better term) I would hope would give you the +2 for changing targets as your basically "firing" at spot other the exactly where the target is.
And if I'm reading this right your also basically using all your remaining complex actions that turn (assuming you have more then 1) to do nothing but prepare for the next combat turn. I'd also hope a wise GM would make you commit at least 1 complex action of the next combat phase to firing just to keep riggers from constantly spinning their Vindis 24/7, which I must say sounds pretty lame.

Eh? I see no reason why I would give any negative modifiers unless it was left on for hours at a time, in which case I would jack up maintenance costs. And changing targets? That's absurd. The gun is dry-spinning, not being aimed at different targets in quick succession. It's not like the rigger is actually spending the time to aim and fire. Do you make complex actions to keep your car engine running?

~J

show me somewhere in the rules that says it doesnt take a turn to keep the engine running

Kagetenshi think about it. Your aiming at either a rough location (ie blindfire) or nothing at all and firing. Yes Firing. As in pulling the trigger and commiting a complex action. just like any other full auto weapon, its just taking 3 seconds to warm up. This wouldn't matter if you could see the target but at this point you can't because by your logic your starting the spinup just before you get within range so you have no wasted turns.
Yes it takes another turn before the cartridges are actually firing but by that time your assuming your going to see the target and fire at him. At that point you've now switched your target from a general location or nothing at all to a person you can see. Thats changing targets because your now taking the effort to reaim/reposition a firing weapon. Keep in mind the bullets don't have to be flying yet for the weapon to be considered firing.
If your doing searching fire thats different but from what your first message says it sounds like your saying "hey by doing X I'll be ready by the time I get there to fire on the characters". I think those types of negatives are completely fair considering its a turn you wouldn't even get to fire normally if you flew up and then started firing.

Cutter... show me where in the rules it says you have to fire if you spin up. As far as I read it, it said you had to spin up before firing... but it didn't say you had to fire if you got it spinning. The reason most people wouldn't do that is it makes your position extreamly obvious, due to the noise. I'd also put in a movement penalty since it would be a bit unweildy. Still... by your logic, you have to switch targets every time you aim any weapon, and that's silly. I mean, haven't you switched from the general location your pistol was aiming at to the specific person?

JaronK

IIRC the M61 Vulcan used in all american fighters starts firing from a 'spun down' start, iirc the first round goes when you pull the trigger and it's spun up to its full 6000rpm in around .25 to .5 secounds.

And yes, you can spin miniguns without firing them you just turn the mortor on, but dont pull the trigger. You don't leave the gun spinning all the time b/c it would run up your maintenance costs. Think of it a bit like idiling your car... Someone not expecting anything would have to start their car, but you can bet the getaway driver has the engine running... Any LS choppoer responding to a 'shots fired' incident will have spun up the gun already.

Carrying the gun around yourself while it is spinning might be a bit difficult, (say -1 combat pool, unless using a gyromount, which should just eat the spin up...)

Batteries are irrelevant on vehicles, as well.

Anyway, what type of helo was it? Most have really bad sensor arrays, which would preclude flare comp (which only comes standard on rating 5+ sensor systems). That specific component could always be added in as an upgrade (Rigger 3, p30) and I'd see it as being not a bad idea.

I'd make a rigger whose vehicle is hit with a superflash suffer the effects like anyone else, but halve the vision modifiers because visual modifiers are generally half as effective on vehicles (Ruthenium, for instance) because of the wide variety of sensors they possess.

I also don't see how the rigger managed to crash from a 12M stun hit... Maybe it was his first day on the job?

The minigun thing, revving it up and all, has been beaten to death here.

Like JaronK said, it would be utterly ridiculous to require a "changing target" TN modifier if you pick a target while the barrels are rotating. You are not aiming while "idling" the minigun any more than you would be without rotating barrels.

Most underrated? Hold-out pistols.

This may be because I don't always force the system on the players... but quite frankly, if you stick a .22 in someone's ear and pull the trigger, drek is going to happen.

Just to clear up some misconceptions:

I dunno I always fire my pop-up turrets a few times before I bother to pop them up, it keeps the team on its toes.

Er, I meant start. Have I mentioned the lack of sleep the past three nights?

Edit: furthermore, I also meant neither of which are disadvantages on a vehicle. I'm really not doing so well this morning.

~J

Indeed, you got ridiculously lucky. Remember this isn't GTA or some movie, where a helicopter should get anywhere near you, especially not in range of a superflash grenade or a pathetic assault rifle. Any attack copter pilot with an ounce of sense would be several hundred feet up in the air--specifically, about 500 feet or so feet at least--which is well out of even Extreme range for your assault rifle, let alone anywhere near where you could have lobbed a "nade". This of course would have only put him within Long range on his Vindicator. Even at that range Sensors shouldn't have been a problem, with the 100X magnification that comes standard with Sensors 2 (on a helo that should be upgraded anyway), and all the stuff that comes standard with Rating 2 sensors (list on p. 135).

So, base TN of 5-6 for sensor-enhanced gunnery (what's your Sig, anyway? Keep in mind lots of cyberware lowers this number), +2 for Urban area, plus 0 for "Interrupted LOS" (Blind-fire for Sensor-enhanced gunnery; Direct LOS is -3), -3 for a Smartlink w/ Rangefinder, which is no doubt standard issue for anyone who's already shelled out the cash for a VCR and an attack helo with a frickin' MMG attached to it. So, end TN is about 4-5, and the rigger'll be throwing his considerable Gunnery skill at this TN plus most of his Combat Pool. Yeah, you shoulda been pretty screwed.

As a side note, where does it say that Trolls have a base Sig of 5? I can't find the rules for metahuman signature anywhere, except that little bit on p. 133 where it says that the Sig for a human-sized biologival form is 6.

Toward the back of Cannon Companion where it's talking about signatures for things not human sized.

[edit] page 104 [/edit]

Ee-yikes! A troll sammie has a Sig of 4!? Sucks to be him, I guess.

Just a quick nitpick: 500 feet in the air != 500 meters of range. You probably could still hit a helicopter and it probably would be within range, though certainly not close. Whether you could do anything to it is another matter entirely.

And, yes, I agree, you can spin without firing. Not that you should need to, of course, but if you stick to canon, there should be none of this +2 for switching targets nonsense.

Another nit-pick -- 500 feet does not equal 500 meters.

-Siege

Your range gap is only between 551 and 800 meters for the minigun. All of which is at extreem range (but doable). The likely safe distance for most calls is 100 meters or so (outside of shotgun range). I don't know that the Star regualrly anticipates ARs at the site of most disturbances.

Seeing as how it makes no difference for spotting/surveillance purposes whether the helicopter is hovering at 5 kilometers or 50 meters, as far as the Sensors have enough range (which they usually have on any decent helo) and there's no immediate need of transportation with the helicopter, all police choppers might as well start out very pessimistic and fly in 200 meter circles 1km above the target area. That way they are out of range of most weapons they could reasonably expect to encounter -- Sporting Rifles are certainly not rare and can readily drop an unarmored helo.

They should fly at their Speed rating, too. Makes them more difficult targets, allows them to get away/close in fast, and they can always decelerate quick if that allows them to engage targets better.

If they might face HMGs, Assault Cannons or missiles, they shouldn't have helicopters flying anywhere in LoS.

The only effective way to protect a chopper against those is the good ole VCR-3/superhuman rigger/FBW3/SA3 Combo for a Rigging Pool the size of Alaska. 30 points of armor, the minimum to provide meaningful defense against the Great Dragon ATGM, is difficult -- although not completely impossible -- to fit on aircraft.

Fortunately, a good Rigger should have no problems generating four successes on a Hiding test.

~J

it's a LMG for purposes of range, IIRC

I'm guessing it's there only to make it clear that the Vindicator doesn't fire LMG ammunition. Why, though? I mean, I can barely understand why LMGs don't fire AR ammunition (just barely), but I cannot figure out why a LMG-ranged, LMG-damage minigun doesn't fire LMG ammo.

Doubly silly because the MMG and HMG versions are exactly that: Vengeance and Vanquisher use MMG & HMG ranges and ammunition, respectively.

Eh.

Also, another underestimated weapon, your riggers front bumper

With a good van, you can expect to knock the damage Power down to 2 on anything less than 520 KPT collisions.

~J

I was meaning Van+acceleration+pedestrian=*squish*

I think its funny how people seem to think a Vindi with 7 points of recoil, +2 for urban, firing from a moving vehicle, blindly firing thru brink walls at extreme range seems dangerous. The TN to hit use would be pretty sad and he knew it. This isn't the movies where all the bad guys instantly fall down. Sensors only help so much just as smartgun isn't a replacement for LOS. But all this is pointless when you have 3 runners poaring plenty of AV firepower long before that gun goes off, even if he came in spinning the round before. Even without wining init fact is its alot safer fighting from a bunker then a 2 body fuel can be 5 stories up.
Maybe the flashbangs wouldn't have worked, its iffy at best. I still say sensors are immunity, just like flare comp isn't immunity. Sometimes you just got to try stuff for laughs. But if I considered the chopper a serious threat he never would have got that close. We could have dropped half a dozen yellowjackets that turn.

Theres a time and a place for everything and this wasn't the time for a chopper. He should have sent a riot-tank with some gas launchers.

Never the less this subject has gone on waaaay too long. Lets keep on topic, other then this side discussion I think theres been some really great points.

It's also obvious that your game does not stress the fear of Lone Star that mine does. People don't shoot at Lone Star because of the consequences.

Well, there are different types of games. In some games, engaging the cops is ok, part of the cinematic action. They are faceless, incompetent stormtroopers meant to die. In other, IMO more closely approaching realistic response, engaging the cops stirs up a hornets nest NO team can compete with, and each cop killed leaves a wife and 2 goblins starving on the streets. Whatever floats yer boat.

So weapon range modifiers don't matter to sensor enhanced gunnery?

[edit someone mentioned TN mods. [/edit]

Does Sensor enhanced gunnery get smartlink and rangefinder mods? Doesn't seem like it would.