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tisoz
QUOTE (shadd4d)
The original use is basically a paint gun with capsule rounds. The thing is filling those capsules with whatever you want. Heck, who gets arrested for a paint gun. You can still claim it's legal.

I think you might still be able to mount a gernade launcher.

As for the 3rd ed source, I can't remember if it's in M&M (due to chemicals) or CC. I think it's in CC in German and M&M in English, but don't quote me.

Don

It is legal. No Recoil, Silenced. 50 shot clip (beware, need to change air canister, too.) Mounts over and under barrel. Doesn't it use assault rifle skill and range, too?

Fill those nuyen.gif .5 rounds with nuyen.gif 5 pepper punch (also legal), and do 7M Stun bursts, then let them make Body5 tests or get some more modifiers.

Too bad it's Availability 9 and SI2, which makes little sense since it is legal. Could a character not just go buy it legally?
Phaeton
[random]

Dual-purpose dual-splash grenade loaded with splat glue AND slip spray. silly.gif

Would that defeat both purposes? grinbig.gif

[/random]
TinkerGnome
Probably. I don't know that smoke and splat glue would work too terribly well, either, since the particulates in the smoke might coat the glue making it less effective.
Modesitt
The Colt Manhunter is overrated. The laser sight takes up the barrel mount. No barrel mount available = No silencers. Instead, you should look at the Morrissey Elite & Alta. Both of them feature an underbarrel laser sight(Remember, normally pistols have no underbarrel mount), the elite is cheaper, and their conceal is higher.

The Large netgun is underrated. It's great for quickly immobilizing heavy targets. Their armor and body doesn't help them at all, all they can do is try to dodge at higher TNs and hope you don't get half their quickness in successes. Bonus points if you can convince your GM that a built in smartlink doesn't count as a mounted accessory.

Too bad it uses Shotguns though. Still underrated IMO.
Phaeton
Wait...The Manhunter can't mount a silencer and pistols normally can't mount underbarrel accessories?!...Um, wow. What the hell.

Just...What the hell.
Austere Emancipator
I guess the lack of underbarrel accessories is there because the game designers wanted to stop people from adding bipods, vertical front grips (I always forget the correct name of these) and UB GLs to pistols. I guess they couldn't be bothered to add "Cannot be added to pistols" into the descriptions of those modifications.

Just ignore all of it if you know better. If you don't know anything about modifying weapons, you might as well go with the rules.
Siege
I'll go with Aus on this one.

Although I thought an integral laser system didn't negate the barrel option. And yes Virginia, you can go out and buy an underbarrel laser sight and/or high power tac light today -- but the technology gets lost in 56 years.

-Siege

Austere Emancipator
And then there's this. Unlike the rifles with built-in TV sets, this one's not an imagemanip either.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And then there's this. Unlike the rifles with built-in TV sets, this one's not an imagemanip either.

...What the bloody hell IS that?! It looks like they took about 1/3 of one of those gadgets you see in an optometrist's office and stuck it on an MP5...
Austere Emancipator
I was going to say something about giving frenchmen german weapons, but decided against it, just because this looks really cool. (13E Regiment de Dragons Parachutistes training in Sweden)
Shadow
Most underrated weapon in the Shadowrun game:

Your Brain.
A Rodent of Unusual Size
I've seen some of the brains of players out there. Trust me, they're not underrated. wink.gif
Siege
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
And then there's this. Unlike the rifles with built-in TV sets, this one's not an imagemanip either.

Take a look at this illumination system.

While I won't vouch for whether or not it's actually seen combat in a configuration like that, I think it is a testament to what people can and will attach to their weapons.

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
As we all know, the absolute minimum modifications you need for any shoulder arm are:
Reflex sight, thermal imaging scope, backup iron sights, visible laser, IR laser, visible light, IR light, sound suppressor, underbarrel GL, bipod, vertical foregrip. Plus low-light & thermographic goggles.

That's IRL. In SR, you've got to add at least the smartlink, rangefinder, guncam, ultrasound sight & goggles and replace the reflex sight with a magnifying scope (because reflex sights do not exist in SR).
John Campbell
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I was going to say something about giving frenchmen german weapons, but decided against it, just because this looks really cool. (13E Regiment de Dragons Parachutistes training in Sweden)

Obviously, "Dragons Parachutistes" is French for "Sasquatches With Guns". ("Para-" as in "paranormal", plus "chutistes", "shootists". I don't know where the dragons come in. Maybe Lofwyr hired them.)
Phaeton
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I was going to say something about giving frenchmen german weapons, but decided against it, just because this looks really cool. (13E Regiment de Dragons Parachutistes training in Sweden)

...Cool because they're in the arctic? *rimshot* grinbig.gif
Moonstone Spider
Might not be a weapon but I'd say Riot Shields are extremely overlooked. They're bulky and hard to conceal, true, but it's also legal so it's conceal isn't as critical as with weapons. And adding several additional points of armor of both types is a huge help. Finally if you're not a melee expert, it adds 2 to each person's tn in melee combat (we houseruled that when going full-defense the defender has no penalty) and if it does put your armor rating above quickness enough for a penalty, dropping it's a free action after you use it's armor to help you soak, meaning no penalty when you counter-attack if he's got more initiative than you.

I've seen some interesting things done with a blowgun too. Drug delivery, silent as the grave, conceal 7, and it only costs 10 Nuyen (It's needles are really cheap too). If it didn't need it's own cursed skill I'd think it was great, but as is only a few character types can spare the skill to use one like that.
Number 6
QUOTE (Moonstone Spider)
Might not be a weapon but I'd say Riot Shields are extremely overlooked. They're bulky and hard to conceal, true, but it's also legal so it's conceal isn't as critical as with weapons.

Riiight. Loaded crossbow are legal to carry around many cities today. Try it some time.
Kagetenshi
Shields may be legal, but you're going to get questions carrying a riot shield around town.

~J
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Modesitt)
The Colt Manhunter is overrated. The laser sight takes up the barrel mount. No barrel mount available = No silencers.

Where's it say that the laser sight takes up the barrel mount? Is that even possible? I can't remember reading anything about that and the picture of it from Street Samurai Catalogue had it using the underbarrel mount IIRC.
cutter07
QUOTE
It is legal. No Recoil, Silenced. 50 shot clip (beware, need to change air canister, too.) Mounts over and under barrel. Doesn't it use assault rifle skill and range, too?

Fill those .5 rounds with 5 pepper punch (also legal), and do 7M Stun bursts, then let them make Body5 tests or get some more modifiers.

Too bad it's Availability 9 and SI2, which makes little sense since it is legal. Could a character not just go buy it legally?


eek.gif notworthy.gif vegm.gif

Man I'm so all over this next game session
cutter07
BTW I mentioned super flash nades earlier but I also used them a couple of sessions ago to take out a low hovering Lone Star chopper that was pesting us. I thrown two of these bad boys on top of the building we were trapped in and blam the pilot and the sniper (who was looking at the blast thru a 3x scope) were blind and stunned. The chopper crashed and blew without a box done to it.
Kagetenshi
And this is why you leave the autopilot on in combat if you won't need to do much maneuvering.

~J
Number 6
It's also why SOP is for your choppers to do passes instead of hover. Hovering when there are hostiles on the ground = death. (as you illustrate)
BitBasher
And also if the man in the chopper was a sniper, why the hell didn't he just stay outside the range of all the weapons you were likely to carry while staying well inside the range of his rifle, say 800 meters.

You don't use a sniper to perform close range combat if theres not a reason for it. nyahnyah.gif
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (BitBasher)
And also if the man in the chopper was a sniper, why the hell didn't he just stay outside the range of all the weapons you were likely to carry while staying well inside the range of his rifle, say 800 meters.

You don't use a sniper to perform close range combat if theres not a reason for it. nyahnyah.gif

I don't know the reason for it in this circumstance, but I'll give you this to chew on. A sniper is not necessarily one that uses a sniper rifle, just as using a sniper rifle doesn't automatically make you a sniper. He could easily have been using a sporting rifle, heavy pistol with a scope, or hell, even a slug-firing shotgun with a scope. A sniper rifle is unarguably the best tool for the job, but it's not the only one.
cutter07
Bitbasher, he (my GM) was going off the old Lone Star book for what Lone Star sends for thier threat response. And while sniping from long distance is great I think the rigger wanted to get close and personal with this vehicle mounted vindi as we were in a pretty solid building. and there was heavy smoke in the area.
Kagetenshi
Woahwoahwoah; he was a Rigger? There's no way you should have been able to take him down like that… what kind of Sensors was he packing?

~J
BitBasher
IIRC the range on the minigun is about as long as the sniper rifle biggrin.gif

I just think it was a goofy way to run it, especially if he was a rigger, where he's using sensors nad the smoke wouldn't really do jack to him. This is just a difference in GM style, I would never do that because my enemies with tactical training, always act like they have tactical training. smile.gif

Also I dont think a superflash would do much to vehicle sensors, but I could be wrong about that.
Fygg Nuuton
decent sensors have flare compensation IIRC
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (Fygg Nuuton)
decent sensors have flare compensation IIRC

They do. Rating 5+ Sensors have all that plus other enhancements.

Wow. Alright, now I know how to take down Deus! Superflash grenades for all my men!

I find it doubtful that a superflash could blind the rigger enough to make him fail a crash test, if the GM ruled that a crash test was in order.
Kagetenshi
Plus that's all just passive sensors. Active sensors wouldn't even lose the -3 TN for LOS.

~J
cutter07
This was IR smoke, not normal smoke. From what I get sensors are just as useless in IR as normal vision.

Also nothing he could find in the rigger books or main book says sensors protect from flash. In fact I'd think you'd be more vunerable because its like having 360 degree vision without eyelids. but thats just IMHO, not rules. He did give him flare comp but flare comp isn't much vs superflash, let alone two superflash at the same time. The pilot wasn't on auto as he was very slowly circling the building to give the sniper a shot of a doorway or window. At the time of the flash in fact he was banking slightly left going counterclockwise aren't the permeter. Not saying the plan was foolproof but the GM wasn't expecting it . Also think about the nade blast reflecting off the flat rooftop upward almost directly into thier face. Also it was the dead of night and in downtown Dallas, around lots of glass skyscrapers. Not much one can do versus that.

However the got a pilot test and a crash test. Both failed, even with combat pool and using karma pool. The Gm was reaching but the modifiers with the flash made it nasty. He didn't even count the IR smoke modifers.
Modesitt
QUOTE
Where's it say that the laser sight takes up the barrel mount? Is that even possible? I can't remember reading anything about that and the picture of it from Street Samurai Catalogue had it using the underbarrel mount IIRC.


I'm going to throw two quotes at you.

QUOTE (Pg. 280 BBB)
Firearms can mount various accessories, from common equipment like silencers to high-tech ultrasound sights.  The Mount statistic on the following Firearm Accessories Table refers to where on the weapon the accessory must be attached: Underbarrel-mount, barrel-mount, or top-mount.  Only one accessory can be attached to a particular mount.  Integral accessories take up mount locations.


QUOTE (Pg. 18 CC)
Designed by famous bounty hunter Andrea McBaine to perform reliably under the most adverse conditions, the Manhunter is popular among law enforcement officers.  The Manhunter features an integral barrel-mounted laser sight


Bolding is mine.

The laser sight eats up the barrel mount. The rest of the pg 280 BBB quote goes on to talk about how integral means it can't be removed.

I repeat my earlier allegation: The Manhunter is overrated if you go by canon. If your GM lets you remove integral accessories, then you have an Ares Predator with one more bullet in the magazine.
JaronK
I thought most vehicle sensors included ultrasound, which shouldn't be affected.

JaronK
cutter07
I've never read anything about ultrasound being standard. Even if it was standard flashbangs are light + noise. Anyon ehit by one has ringing ears for awhile.

I imagine a pair of superflashes are pretty loud. I'm not even sure a sensitve ultrasound mic could survive that. Maybe but I doubt you'd get much data after a rumble liek that plus the boucing sound waves off the buildings.
BitBasher
QUOTE
This was IR smoke, not normal smoke. From what I get sensors are just as useless in IR as normal vision.
No, vehicle sensors don't even require LOS. In fact, you get a -3 to the TN if they do have LOS, base sensor TN's assume there isn't LOS. Furthermore the smoke grenades dampen the flash from the flash grenades. That's what smoke does. Also the vehicles would have radar and ultrasound, more than likely even thermal smoke doesn't do a lot.
cutter07
Bit I can see your logic but the smoke was on one side of the building and the chopper on the other side. The flash was in-between the two. The smoke covered me throwing it up top at the time of throwing it, but the chopper had move around away from it by the time it went off. The -3 might have helped a little but its still blind fire (+cool.gif. Only slightly more effective then using smartgun 2.

Also the sensors might give negatives to the test but they don't make you immune. Cameras are just as sensitive as eyes when it comes to light. You can see this a little with the nightvision cameras in iraq filming tanks go off. Theres an slight burned image after the bright tank muzzle flash goes off, or bombs in the distance explode.

Point wasn't to destroy the chopper, it was to take it out with class. If I wanted it destory it I had a Ares Alpha loaded with AR that could have did that.
GreatChicken
QUOTE
I've never read anything about ultrasound being standard. Even if it was standard flashbangs are light + noise. Anyon ehit by one has ringing ears for awhile.


IIRC the sensor description goes something like 'as the rating increases, so do the base capabilities of the sensor suite'. Civvies can get up to sensor 4 legally, sensor 3 already giving quite a comprehensive array of equipment. You can be sure anything above sensor 1 has more stuff packed in than the rating seems to tell.

Oh, and the pilot's ears may ring, but he still can SEE. You have little chance crash an aircraft if the pilot still can judge distance and altitude, and the aircraft is in working order. You may cause a loss of communication between the pilot and the copilot, but that's it. Really.
Capt. Dave
Say the grenades did affect him. Base handling on a LS Yellowjacket is 4. He could easily make that TN, even with modifiers from the flashes. He'd also be using Karma, 'cause it's be a really good time to do so.

Then he'd light you up like a Christmas tree, because smoke can't stop searching fire. smile.gif
cutter07
QUOTE
Oh, and the pilot's ears may ring, but he still can SEE.


Quote me where it says VCR makes you immune to flashes.

And while the sensors may get more advanced it doesn't detail exactly what that includes or what it excludes. Your assuming it does and while a PC might get that granular as what his sensors may or may not have the NPC didn't (at least as far as I know, I'm not the GM). IMHO I think a rigger wuld be just as effected as anyone else unless the rules state otherwise. Its not like an illusion when its in the mind. <shrugs>

The GM never said he was blinded or deaf, he only stated he felt it warranted a pilot check which failed.
Kagetenshi
At the very least, ultrasound proximity detectors are part of Rating 0 sensors. There's no way the pilot should have not known where the building was. Furthermore, a rigger isn't in their body at all; there should be no noise-based stun effect, the rigger shouldn't even notice.

There shouldn't be blindfire modifiers at all; roll Sensor rating against a TN equal to 3 (6 Signature for a non-troll metahuman minus three for LOS) and you've got sensor-enhanced gunnery right there. Manual and passive sensor tests might be shot, but not for long.

~J
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (cutter07 @ Jun 3 2004, 01:13 AM)


1. And while the sensors may get more advanced it doesn't detail exactly what that includes or what it excludes.

2 .The GM never said he was blinded or deaf, he only stated he felt it warranted a pilot check which failed.

1: pg. 135, BBB

2: If it didn't blind or deafen him, then this pilot failed a Rotor test against TN 4. Possible, I guess. You'd figure LS would hire decent pilots to fly 70-80 nuyen.gif
aircraft.

GreatChicken
I don't have to quote because the rigger's plugged into the vehicle anyway; i.e he IS the vehicle, the sensor array his eyes and ears. Hell, he wouldn't feel worse for wear even if you threw the FB right into the cockpit.
cutter07
QUOTE
Say the grenades did affect him. Base handling on a LS Yellowjacket is 4. He could easily make that TN, even with modifiers from the flashes. He'd also be using Karma, 'cause it's be a really good time to do so.

Then he'd light you up like a Christmas tree, because smoke can't stop searching fire.


Not saying a rigger couldn't have blew me to pieces but lets follow your math here. +2 because I was a running target, +8 due to blindfire, plus full cover. The chopper was moving as well thought not sure the speed so theres additional modifiers. imagine the building is square and run to the south entrance (6oclock) while the chopper is at eastside (9oclock). He has no LOS and would have to fire at me thru the corner of the building, thru the ceiling and then the wall while I was backing a layup shot on the roof.
Kind hard to do searching fire thru 1 layer of concreate ceiling and 1 layer of brink wall.

Of course I was inside and safe long before he could have shot me, considering it takes forever to wind up a Vindi rotfl.gif

Like I said man, if I was worried about it I would have pumped 18D worth of AV rounds into him. rotfl.gif
cutter07
QUOTE
I don't have to quote because the rigger's plugged into the vehicle anyway; i.e he IS the vehicle, the sensor array his eyes and ears. Hell, he wouldn't feel worse for wear even if you threw the FB right into the cockpit.


So because I have cyber eyes, which are just as mechinal as those sensors I'm immune to flash? Just currious (God I hope my GM is reading this). biggrin.gif

Your assuming this I guess, I don't remember any rule to that effect. And while you got a very valid point I believe thats more of a house rule then a offical rule. You have to watch rigger\decker rules else you get people thinking they are are immune to everything including mind control, physical illusions, etc. We had players thinking if they could jack in fast enough they could resist control thoughts. rotate.gif
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (cutter07 @ Jun 3 2004, 01:29 AM)

Kind hard to do searching fire thru 1 layer of concreate ceiling and 1 layer of brink wall. 

Of course I was inside and safe long before he could have shot me, considering it takes  forever to wind up a Vindi

What, you're never going to come out? How 'bout a nice open shot as you come out the door, since the flash wouldn't have done anything to the rigger?

Edit: If your cybereyes act the same as running full DNI, or closing off all bodily perceptions, sure.
GreatChicken
QUOTE
So because I have cyber eyes, which are just as mechinal as those sensors I'm immune to flash? Just currious


Eyes don't come with flare comp by default, unlike sensors. (1 and above, I think).
Yes, you would be immune if you bought the proper flare comp. (It only costs 0 essence for the first 0.5 essence points of eye stuff. It doesn't cost $0)

Oh, and I hope your GM is reading this....ideas to screw players over. FUN! grinbig.gif
cutter07
If you say so chief. You play your game however you want, we'll stick to the rules not speculation. Whatever your GM rules I'm happy for ya.

You might want to read the actual description of superflash nades tho considering flare comp bearly helps. These bad boys are seriously not to nice to be hit with.

Anywhom back to the topic. Are there any good choices in the heavy weapons area? Never played many gunnery types.
Capt. Dave
QUOTE (cutter07 @ Jun 3 2004, 01:41 AM)
we'll stick to the rules not speculation.

Then erase all your Karma Pool and Good Karma, because you apparently used your Hand of God. By the rules, you should probably be dead.

On topic, the vindicator is a good choice. It takes a combat turn to spin up, but that's about as long at it takes for a grenade to detonate...*clears throat* AHEM...
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