Which means nothing. Pepsi and Disney own half the US today but you don't see them sending out hit squads. If they have some much power why don't they overthrow UCAS ?

Also Lone Star is a private security company, not the police. Police implies they have the full backing of the goverment and full reign of the law or at least the ability to pass issues outside thier control to other government agencies. LS is just a glorified rent-a-cop service, and by no means the best.

Even if they weren't most LS are about like todays cops: fat guys in thier early 40's who don't know dick about using thier service weapon. Now some of the chromed LS can hang in numbers but those are more of the HTR teams. Most runners are long gone by the time they roll up.

That's true if Lone Star doesn't have any competition. But they do, when it comes to securing contracts from the govt. for 'areas to protect'. Unless you're telling me Knight Errant or rival security forces don't exist, and they have Microsoft equivalent monopoly, in which case I'll start believing you. Right now I'd more readily believe your GM's giving you an easy time. Houseruling indeed.

Back on topic. What about energy weapons, like lasers? Sure, they're expensive, but you'd think the experienced runners might pack one O' those...

The only real bonus that I've ever found is the ability to select the starting damage level. Lugging those damned power packs is not fun.

Cutter, your ignorant comment on "the way real life cops are" is a direct flame on myself and the people I work with. I'll ask you to refrain from blatant insults.

And read the Lone Star Sourcebook. You are bathing in a sea of ignorance on the topic of Lone Star.

I've never read (or even seen) the LS sb so some of this could be incorrect.

I've never viewed LS as cops either. I'm sure some LS employees see themselves as real police officers, but I doubt all of them do. LS employees are like any megacorp employee or guard, and I don't see a reason for an "OMG cop killing is baaad!!" sentiment with them. If corpers get killed in your game, LS is no different (conceptually).

Specific precincts, and I'd expect areas of cities (Downtown, Tacoma, etc.) would have the sort of fraternity that real police do, but I doubt it'll resemble the kind police have today. If a runner is a known "cop" killer, meaning deliberately goes after LS employees or killed a bunch over time, then it'd make sense for to go after that runner, but that's more self-preservation and sending a message to the shadow-community.

As for real life police, my experiences with them have been good. They were always professional and had a reason for talking to me. They have a lot of annoying procedures (the flashlight!), but I understand that it's for their own protection.

Then again, some of my friends and acquaintances have had bad experiences with police. It's a profession that attracts a certain personality type. I'm sure a lot of cops joined on for the uniform, badge, gun, and because they're turned on by authority they're not responsible enough to handle; but a negative portrayal of all police is inaccurate and pretty stupid.

I expect a lot of LS employees are like that though. Since they're not a government police force, a lot of them would be out-of-towners and lack the emotional connection to the place they're supposed to be protecting: it won't be "home" to them, so they'll care less. Also, since a lot of the employees won't be originally community members, it'd be hard to keep out the unprofessional, unfriendly, authority junkies since you can't know a person until you meet them. If LS had a battery of regular psych exams the number of bad employees would be cut down, but I don't see a reason for HQ to do this or to care.

In the SR world there's the additional stress of every stop in Seattle (or wherever) becoming a combat situation. Without the staff and bone necklace it's hard to say to say who "looks like a mage" and without a LMG in hand, any adult could be a shadowrunner (can't see dikoted spurs with venom sacs anyway). So even "good guys" that join LS out of some sense of public duty could (and I expect do) turn into stressed out, trigger happy bastards.

What was my point?..... oh yeah. Killing LS employees is just as bad (or not bad) as killing any other corp employee. The employee's friends will want the runner's blood, but all of Seattle isn't coming down on shadowrunners for one tagged-and-bagged LS employee. If a runner isn't too stupid, and doesn't make a hobby out of killing them, it shouldn't be some huge problem.

Seriously Cutter... you should know better than to make a rediculus flame like that.

JaronK

The Corporate Download book is pretty specific about why the corps leave the governments in place, theres no profit in overthrowing them. On the other hand I have to admit that I love the idea of Disney hit squads. How scared would you be if Goofy kicked your door in and opened up with some full-auto fire?

Isn't that already on the cover of Cannon Companion?

Whatever you say Bit. I think I hit a note of truth there your not ready for. I respect LEOs who put themselves in harms way but many are like most local government employees and you know it. The "insult" wasn't directed at you directly but to those that fit that group which you may or may not be in. If you took offense then perhaps you need to take a realistic look at our LEO stucture of today. In most cities there are more LEO enforcing traffic then following response calls or doing beat.
You may be one of those fine individuals that makes a difference, thats for you to decide. But coming into a post and spewing non-related self-rightous claims is not going to earn you any points for the public. And if you think LS is a good representation of ideal police then you must have a pretty boring day at work.

BTW making an insult and asking for them to cease in the same post is ignorant in and of itself. Drop it and move along please.

Hehe, I just got an image in my head of Porky pig with an LMG. 'Th-th-th-that's all, motherfuckers!"

Of course this leads us to the inevitable question...Which group of cartoon characters would make the most effective runner team?

Can I get a freaking ignore option on this forum PLEASE? I will not reply and degenerate this into a flame war.

Hmmm... Well, Bugs'd have to be the face of any team...

The Biker Mice from Mars.

The fact that corps in real life don't have hit squads is irrelevant, since Shadowrun is a fictional game taking place sixty years in the future. Incidentaly, Disney is known for using cutthroat business tactics. There's a saying in businiess; "Don't mess with the mouse." It's not a reference to small companies in general. It's a reference to Disney. Also, corporations do have a bit more leeway to use armed guards and the like in some other countries. In fact, when the fundamentalists overthrew the Shah in Iran, Ross Perot had some employees who were stuck in the country and weren't being allowed to leave. Do you think he sued? Hell no, he hired mercenaries to rescue them. And it worked.

As for cops, real life police officers are pretty professional. They may not be especcially good with their guns, but that is simply because they hardly ever use them. Lone Star is a corporation, like any other, and does engage in underhanded business tactics. I imagine it doesn't do so quite as much though, since they aren't invloved in research or manufacturing. Mostly they would try to find intelligence on or sabotage attempts by a rival corp to win a city policing contract. However, most lone star cops probably do think of themselves in much the same way modern cops do, although the same can't be said of the executives. Since privatization has completely replaced local police departments, they do have the full backing of the law, and will generally be given the benefit of the doubt in civil liberties cases, unless someone sues. The sworn officers of Lone Star would probably be kept pretty seperate from the rest of the corporation, so security guards at their corporate offices wouldn't have gone through police academy, and police officers couldn't just apply for a transfer to corporate black ops. If the police in Shadowrun are more corrupt and ineffectual than police today, that is just a sign of the times. They are no worse than, say, the police in the great depression during the heyday of the Italian-American mafia.

My vote has to go to the guys from the Robin Hood movie. Robin would be a great face/sniper, Little John is your heavy weapon guy, Friar Tuck covers magic. I dont know about decker/rigger, maybe those church mice? Plus they are already a proven paramilitary force.

Bah, don't let the trolls get you down Bit.

Hmm, I think Daffy Duck would be great for a Shadowrunner, as would the Dodo. Those two can do darn near anything... including infiltrating a compound by drawing a door on a wall and going through it. Elmer Fudd would be okay, since he seems to have a shotgun with unlimited ammo and an amazing rate of fire, but he can't seem to hit anything... maybe Bugs with Elmer's shotgun?

JaronK

Seriously Bit sorry if I offended you. My point wasn't to say all police are worthless because thats completely false. Only that your view of LEOs is way bias. I was a EMT-P and I know there is an unpleasant side to the police population. But mostly its that police are a undertrained, underpaid force strecthed too thin due to politics and groups like MADD. Fact is if your a citizen and you get robbed, attacked, etc you will not get the help you need in time. Same for most businesses. I'm sorry but the police today are not some superforce of crackshots. Most first responders can't keep a 6" pattern at 20 yards, which can seriously endanger the public. Once agan sorry if that insults you but you came in here looking to flame.

Dont forget Wile E. Coyote, that guy must have some serious contacts in Acme, not to mention some hefty B/R skills. He'd be like Q.

Hmm, cartoon runners:

Melee Specialist:
Bun-Bun, nobody beats the mini-lop with the Switchblade. No way in hell he's not an Adept with 5,000 initiations.

Cutter, please stop baiting me into talking about things non SR related. as I stated above I will not reply to them and it is derailing the thread.

Back on Topic:

Lone Star is, from the ground up, designed to work like a Law Enforcement Agency. They do not have managers and mid managers they have Chiefs, Captains, SGT's ect. As far as the Law Enforcement employess are concerned it is a totally paramilatary Law Enforcement Agency. The beuracaratic division, the actual cops never deal with. This Corp is designed to look and be the cops for most intents and purposes.(paraphrased, Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 10-12)

Lone Star provides 62% of non governmentally controlled Law Enforcement contacts in the UCAS to Knight Errant's 32%. (Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 14)

Lone Star Spends far more money on each contract than it takes in from the actual contract payment, making up the difference in equipment sales, corporate protection contracts, media, merchandizing and other means. (Lone Star Sourcebook Pg 24-25)

If anyone wants any details about anything Lone Star related, ask and I'll look it up.

Bottom line is that Lone Star provides a better law enforcement service to a city because they are a mega, but as far as the city is concerend Lone Star is the Cops, that's all they see. As far as the Lone Star Officers are concerend they are the Cops, that's all they see. The corp is designed that way from the start. Lone Star has divisions that handle Air Patrol, Ground, Highway, Paranatural, even Incarceration and Penal systems. The whole ball of wax.

Bit, not baiting. Just was clarifying. BTW no ones forcing you to read this thread.

Chicken wtf are you talking about? I'm talking US PDs, not international. You have no freakin clue on city/state police/HWP. I shoot at the range with these guys, and talk to them every day. Most only have to test twice a year or less and even then the stardards for accuracy are pretty low. Now don't get me wrong, there are some fine shots but there are also some guys that have no business firing a gun running around enforcing the law. I've even seen some carrying weapons that have been recalled such as the early S+W 9mm autos Even seen a video the other day of a female officer nearly shooting her partner while he was cuffing a BBG. The shot went off inches from the BBGs head and her partners leg.
Here is a few stories shared by others:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?...&threadid=82742

Hell I wish we had Israel's police force, they are hella good shots and very well armed. And thanks for calling me kid, Its good to feel young again.

As far as LS is concerned they are big but they are nothing great. Most are setup to be a hassle for most runners. By no means are a pair of squad cars w/ 4 LS response cops any real challenge for even a starting group of runners. I've never went GTA as its been said but I think a group of moderately experienced runners come hold out for a good while if they had some cover. LS's big advantage is that they have numbers and gear galore. Literially you could justify wave after wave of LS HTR units before they'd have to call for something more serious. And magic to the mix and you coud really make things bad for LS. That is til the LS combat mages roll up.

Question: Stun batons. When beating someone with a stun baton do you add club damage to it as well? I assuming the stun damage is purely the for the shock.

Wow Dave your funny. You got it all figured out. I guess I should hang up my thunderbolts and retire from running. After all no one can top Lone Star.

I agree. If you are in that position, I suggest you each grab a revolver, run outside, and cut to end credits. Double points if there are only two of you and the Bolivian army is outside.

I gave him an equally sarcastic response to his. He knew this but I'll guess I'll explain. Some people just like flame after all.

You tier the respone with the threat as it increases. You should know this of all people here. This is why you don't carry m4s in squad cars.
First its squad cars on the scene because the issue hasn't been assessed, then backup of squads as needed. Then air support as needed and then tactical if the issues can not be be dissolved. LS is the same way, they'll call out the big guns when they need them as the best can't be everywhere at once.
As for LS as the LS force increases should the force against them. Police plan according to the assumed response from the attacker. For example if AV rounds were used thier going to send in hardened vehicles and magic. If you counter thier counter with the right response you succed. Of course most runners are in out and long gone before LS is even en route. If the runners were going to holdout for awhile they should plan for it, be ready for the shitstorm. A well armed team with some mages of thier own and some Great Dragon ATMs could keep LS busy for awhile. LS doesn't have anything the BBGs can't get themselves. But like you said your pretty well screwed cause sooner or later that fish, you know, the ones thats always bigger, will come. But hell it makes for a great ending or mega karma points if you make it to a sewer drain.

First off:

The book states that the cops ARRIVE at those intervals. As for what they actually do when they arrive, they have the same intelligence and self-preservation instinct as anyone else.

I think the most underated weapon is the syringe full of drain-o in a fingertip compartment. Or my favorite booby trap, the "cyberdeck with a taser hard-wired into the jack."

I'm sure that'll do a lot to the optical fiber.

Now, a high-powered laser connected to the jack...

~J

For the past few posts (except that particular response to me) you were talking about MOST or ALL police without any reference to country whatsoever. I thought people 'your age', should know better than that.

Lone Star isn't your normal police force, or perhaps you're still stuck in 1980. year's 206X already, kid...or is that old man? Here's the deal:
1. Lone Star has equipment standard issue better than even Israel police. I'd say each of them is issued SWAT team level equipment. Unlike police forces of today, there's no government and/or citizen lobby control to curb their power. They're private, the government only pays them and then closes one eye.

2. Sure, you can say THIS is the very reason why they can afford to slack off....but you forget the 'private sector' influence. They have competition from their rival Knight Errant, who are just as well, if not better, equipped and trained. 32% may look small compared to the 68% pie, but it's no laughing matter...especially if this force to be reckoned with is the ONLY thing that's between you and monopoly. And, it's catching up, too, and directly challenging your supremacy. If you were LS, could you afford to slack? Nope. $$$ and prolonged contracts are at stake.

3. Given (1) and (2), what do you think the basic response will be? Certainly not the wishy washy, fat 40 year old sleepy cop in a basic patrol car. Uh uh. The minute some idiot fires off a saturday night special, the basic response is more likely to be HMMWVs, crew 3, with at least roof mounted brownings, with --no, not a shotgun -- a grenade launcher or LAW backup. The hell with "brutality"...no big bro's breathing down necks here. It practically has the freedom in normal conditions to act like an army during martial law.

4. LS is INTERNATIONAL, not just the "good ol'" US of A. It should not have to follow US standards.

Lone Star did slack off, once.

Check the timeline for the Week of Sirens.

~J

Just because they are private doesn't mean there are no rules. Not to mention that as a business, they can't just go over budget and pass the debt on to their children like governments can.

Something to consider, though, is that the goal of Lone Star, like any corporation, is to make money. Thus, money is their primary concern, not justice or law. They don't want to waste unnecessary resources or endanger their property any more than they have to, and this can be used to advantage.

JaronK

And neither are you going to get under mine. I'm just returning what you gave me. Without opening the package. Maybe you should follow your own advice, ne?

I don't follow my advice, I live it sir.

Heh. Man, these things come back to haunt you, don't they? It's so hard to retract things when it's written down...

JaronK

Going up against LS thinking "Sheesh, these guys are pushovers!" was one of my first mistakes as a Shadowrun player. I don't remember all the details, since it was a looong time ago, but what I do remember is this: We were happily making our getaway, dropping a few LS cops here and there, when all of a sudden they stopped coming after us.

Maybe a minute later our entire team was dead. Of course we complained to our GM, but she calmly explained to us that a) LS uses whatever means are necessary to ensure the safety of its officers and the people it is payed to protect, and b) sniper rifles really do have a huge range. This experience has made me a much more careful and creative planner.

Lesson here: LS serves the game better if it's not used as cannon fodder, but instead as a device to force players to rely less on the brute-force approach.




Underrated weapon: Female face with cultured, tailored pheromones, high quality (read: subtle) plastic surgery, and oral spurs. OUCH!

At the risk of sounding trite and snarky, I'd have to say that, in my experience, the most underrated weapon of any shadowrunner is intelligence, diligence, and proper planning.

But that could just be the troupes I've worked with.

If you have to pull a weapon, your run's probably already hosed.

Actually, forget the spurs: Oral Whip - the darned thing has a reach of one! Now that would be some pretty intense kissing...