I don't recall many corporations in D&D. Then again, there isn't really a "D&D" setting. The primary difference between D&D and Shadowrun as products is that D&D is a primarily a rules set, while Shadowrun is primarily a setting. Thus, Shadowrun is more comparable to say, Forgotten Realms. Which is teeming with overly complex and silly plots and uber-powerful characters, too. Which is the primary (although not sole) failing of the setting--it's not player-focused.

Oops. Double post.

Intellectual Property.

And why did Thanos vanish?

~J

I'm not going to enter the "where the Shadowrun world is going" discussion myself. But I'm afraid you're doing a wrong judgement of SoE when you say it's vague.

The Spanish chapter (the one I can talk about with more knowledge) was written with a complete draft of about 20 pages for each of the Communities (twelve). Such drafts dealt with the history of the Community, local events and players (ranging from AA corps to B corps, for example). It described each major city in detail, and even gave local descriptions of neighborhoods and local places to visit and people to know. As it stood at the end, they were like New Seattle, SoE and a bit of SSG altogether.

Obviously, such an amount of information couldn't fit in a single sourcebook for all Europe. What is more important, who gave a damn for a complete description or Ourense, a second-line city in Galicia? And, what's more, how many had the previous knowledge to really use such detailed information? If I tell you Vigo sits on around a hill, no problem, anyone can use such "vague" information; if I say that the City Hall lies in the eastern side of a hill, such info is still usefull, though lacks the general info (there's only one hill). And, if I keep entering in detail, or wordcount rises again a lot, or the general picture is lost and info is unusable for people outside the city.

In fact, one of the biggest problems was cutting down the chapter in size. And I don't only mean about such detailed descriptions, I mean complete Communities had to be left aside mostly, and tons of plothooks and important players in them had to be left as references in the best case. It had to be that way.

The corporation = feudal lord is irrelevant. I mean for pete's sake, SoE is written like someone raided their European History primer. Complete neo-Medievalism. There's a third defenestration of Prague!! Anyway, the basic setup of an adventure, in any game, is ludicrously simple.

The players are Party A. They are Party A because they are the players. Party B will reward the players if they accomplish X goal. X goal will require a certain amount of planning and research, but primarily a good deal of exploration, problem solving, and combat. That is a basic formula for pretty much every adventure written for any game. Party B can be anyone, and usually plays only a peripheral role in the game.

Ultimately my issue with this book arises from three factors: One is that the thematics have completely diverged from the original Shadowrun theme. That doesn't even seem to be in dispute. The second problem is that in doing so, it has focused too much on Party B, and the unseen Party C, i.e. the employer and the target of the adventure. Both parties are necessary, but ultimately arbitrary and peripheral to what is actually going on. My THIRD problem is that as a location book, SoE is much less helpful than pretty much any other "location guide." It spends an inordinate amount of time on history and politics, and not nearly enough on interesting and useful locations; as a result, I think I'd get more useful information about the nation in an encyclopedia.

I don't say this merely to be disagreeable or mean; I say it because I think criticism is important.

About SR / DD comparison : Shadowrun has published many rule books, people complained about not having setting info. Now focus is on setting books since all rules are already covered, and people complain because DD books are more useful because they contain only rules. Well, buy SR rulebooks and you have the same. SR propose setting in addition of that, not in place of that.

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere.

Yeah, I've seen T:AW. I'm saying that earlier books did a better job. Seattle. New Seattle. California Free State. Denver. Even less focused books like Target: UCAS and Target: Smuggler's Havens, often gave me a better idea of what the cities they were talking about were like. Even London and Tir na Nog, which I didn't care for as much, gave more useful information. I won't address the other points, because you avoided making any counterpoints in favor of being snarky.

It's some of both. Short of going over the books page by page, there's not much I can say I haven't already said.

*squezze the clowns nose*

so it isnt your dads SR any more, many reacted the same to D&D3. stop flaming about it and just forget that there is a 3rd release of the core rules (man i wish they had set up a part of this page so that the old hats had a place to go with SR2 or older).

personaly i dont have a problem with the books and im looking forward to getting my hands on SoE

SR isnt and never have been pure cyberpunk, its a mix of cyberpunk ideas (cyberware, omnipresent and near omnipotent corps) with magic and lately a good dose of real life. in real life noone is perfect at anything, everything have flaws.

history have a bad habbit of repeating itself, just with better tech. first we had ceasar, then we had the church (not realy a emperor but it still started wars based on some ideal/dream), then we had napoleon, then hitler and who comes next? most likely it will come when its the least expected.

the only thing that keeps a group of humans stable (in a non-dictatorial system of control) is a outside threat that can only be defeated by sticking together. when its not there we start to disintigrate socialy as an effect of greed. for 45 years there was the cold war, now they try to focus on terrorism.

Getting back on topic. I do like SoE. I haven't read it all yet, (only got it yesterday) but the sections on European history and Great Britain I like.

I like to be able to set games in other places than Seattle (though I do game there a lot), as travel has got more rapid in the sixth world it is reasonable for runners to travel to other places. I need the information on other places to be able to set runs there.

I need background books that do deal with what the Megacorps are doing so that I understand the background behind the run. I need this as my players almost never do what I expect them to do and go off on various tangents. Having background information enables me to follow up on these tangents.

I do agree with an earlier poster who said that some of the pictures were too dark to see what was happening. Was this a problem with the print reproduction? The history section was about the right length and detailed enough to make it useful for gaming. The only point I must take issue with in the Great Britain section is the succession to the British Crown. Charles' third son became George VII. As there was no mention of his marriage the son is illegitimate and cannot inherit. If he married Camilla Parker-Bowles his son is still illegitemate as far as the crown is concerned as C P-B is a divorcee. Even if he did take the throne and was killed and later his son because he turned into a troll, Prince Andrew would become king. After him, his daughters, after them Prince Edward, after him his daughter, after her Princess Anne, after her her projeny. There are very strict protocols for inheritance. I know it's a small point, but it did spoil the GB section slightly.

People were asking earlier about the numbers for the corporations and for more details about the orders in the Catholic Church. I would like them too, but if I had to choose I would prefer (but only just) the numbers for the corporations.

Thanks for all the work put into the book. I will post more comments when I've read the rest of the book.

Evolution implies a natural progression.

I just bagged a copy of SoE off of Ebay. Now I gotta wait a week for it's arrival.

Ooops, that was me, I just didn't log in.

To sum it up:

Borrowed SoE over the week. Gave it back today. Won't buy it.

Writing/Style:

Nice to really good.

Art:

FanPro finally got rid of Prescott&Laubenstein. Good!!!! Art is acceptable to good

History of Europe:

aarrgh. As some already said, European History 101. Sorry guys but "Turks at Vienna" no longer make sense. About the only thing I like is that the NEEC

Nations:

France: Some nice ideas, looks playable

Italy: I like the concept of "italian states".

Germany/Austria/Swiss: You had to work with the "Dusseldorf crap"

Poland: Useless (Go Ruskies!) Should have been cut for Balkans/Greece. If I want to play in "Post WW III Poland with Ruskies" I play Twilight:2000.

Portugal/Spain: Sounds a lot like CP's old "Eurosource Plus"[1]. Might actually work

ireland: Running in the Fey version of the 3rd Reich is boring. Should have been cut for Russia etc

GB: Nice. I like the magical stuff and the references


Most interesting parts (Scattered Balkans, Greece, Russia) is missing.


Companies:

Every third-tire nation seems to sport at least one AA corp. I always thought of those as mayor player like todays EADS or Daimler-Chrysler. Well, the "Proteus Virus" seems to be spreading.


Magic:

Some nice tie-ins (Leylines etc) and references but often not coordinated (GB<->Brittany have mytical links etc)

Tooo much references to Surge and the comet. Everyone seems to have at least three times the problems of the UCAS



Birdy




[1] Besides: SouthAm was one of the few regions never covered in detail by an Cyberpunk SB. The rest was quite nicely.

I haven't read the book yet, but I thought I'd throw myself into this discussion.

I like SoNA and all the new location books, I do. But somehow I still miss those ols ones like the London one or Seattle. Why? Becuase you had so many cool places in them (with short descriptions). Whenever my players want to do something or go somewhere in Seattle I just pick up my old book, go to the right chapter and I can give 'em the name of a cool pub and a quick description and it's quicker than if I would have to think it up myself. And I miss this.

However... if they were to do this with every country (or even city! ) in Europe.... man... insane amount of books (and money!).

In conclusion: I like both the new AND the old books and they both have their uses.

I'm halfway through the book, and right now i'm in heaven no serious complaints. Except perhaps the fact that the Chez chapter was a little bit to perfect for my taste, the only really bad thing that is happening there are the shedim and that doesn't really count in this context - it's all well and good that not all countries are in the gutter, but come on it's more or less a picture perfect place, and man does the writer like to remind the reader about that on every page. I would just have liked a little negative backlash from the commentaries but NO! Makes it all a little to nice and sweet.

But the most important thing right now is that it's just great to have a sourcebook with more intel concerning Europe, that will make it alot easier to visit different part of it.

@Birdy:

Thanks for the explanation. I totally disagree with you on the whole theme but hey, everybody has a different taste...

And I still don't know why you call it "Düsseldorf Crap", "Erkrath crap" would be selfexplaining, but...

Okay guys, let's keep it in your pants and let's keep it civil.

Skeptical, Crimson and Voce have made their point. They would prefer to get more crunchiness (for lack of a better word) back into the game. They would like more detail and more toys rather than general information. I'm sure that despite problems with the fiction they would prefer a SOTA style book to any of the current books or a (original) Seattle to something like SoE. They would like more toys, more options and more detail descriptions (bars and nightclubs of London instead of nuggets on the Wild Druids). In fact they probably represent a not insignificant portion of the SR audience.

There are several fundamentals I disagree with Crimson particularly, but that's besides the point he's entitled to his opinions and his assumptions - simply not all of them are correct. I've just come off writing for a book that plugs into SoE's material and offers quite a bit of crunchy goodness for the players as well as providing some of that "useful fictional detail", which in my mind proves his arguments partially unfounded but that may be simply because I'm mildly miffed by the fact that Crimson assumes he knows how Shadowrun was, but the rest of us who've been playing the game since the beginning have somehow lost track .

Skeptical makes some good points though, and believe me it's good to see someone who believes that making things more international does not necessarily imply a change of scale in the action. There's a bunch of things I disagree with him too (governments are mere tools of the elites -be they corporate, ethnical or social-; 35% of all violent crime today in Europe -worse in America- goes unsolved and the stats are getting worse, shadowrunners would make an easy living; nationalisms and politics in general have long ceased to have a truly ideological foundation and are now just the facades for interest groups and corporate powers let alone in 60 years) but his argument seems more productive in several ways.

Regarding the issue of the balance between fiction and rules, I'd point to the huge debates about getting more shadowtalk into the books and seeing more of the Sixth World after the core rulebooks came out, as a sample of what most Shadowrun fans want.

Both Clown and Crimson make a valid point when it comes to the proliferation of metaplots and the fact that most people would never use all of them. I would note however that perhaps this is a question of perception, I would argue that the proliferation of subplots has been a constant since SR1 (and I can point to examples), but that the dominance of specific metaplots during certain periods (the IEs/Harly, the Bugs, the Horrors, the Corp War) overshadowed them and that today the temporary absence of one single overriding plot is bringing many of them to the fore. SoE serves up several examples of this by diving into material that dates back to SR1 books in several places and simply builds on the information therein (notably Prime Runners and Threats).

For instance, a friend of mine and SOE contributor and I argued for days on end, when we were still back in the EuroSB stages of the book, about whether or not so much history and political background. We debated it and discussed it and came up with one simple question that provided the only possible answer to the debate: "could the typical reader (most likely an American RPGer) be expected to understand the underlying foundations that make living in each of these European countries so different from living in North America without resorting to the history and background fluff?" - Had the object of the question been directed a European the answer might have been a "yes", but let's face it what would American's who read "Ragnarok" imply about France from the brief reference to French nobles?

Regardless this isn't really the point that's being debated. From their posts I take Skeptical and Crimson would have prefered a detail book on the ground level fluff with 4-5 major Euro cities (sort of like NAGNA), with individual locations and street level NPCs the characters would interact with. Right guys? Personally, and again this is just IMHO, I don't believe this would work. I honestly believe the audience simply wants a broader picture so they can fill in and mold the details to their specific material.

In the spirit of constructive debate I'd like to ask Skeptical (since Crimson is no longer with us) what he'd like to see for the next 4-5 Shadowrun books. In the interest of keeping this thread flowing and since this has moved way beyond a critique of SOE, I'll start a thread on the general discussion board. Here

Finally got my copy today. Initial impressions are good-its pretty (Always nice), I liked a lot of the art ( I often like the "action" of a piece, so even if it isn't Jim Lee quality I can like a piece. However a lot of really really good art was in the book.), and the chapter on Italy caught my eye so i read the whole chapter right off the back.

A good sign. My congratulations to the EuroSB people. You did a fine job. I will try and get a in depth commentary on what I like and if I dislike anything that too (Hopefully in a constructive helpful way.) up soon.

As Syn sais, I (for example) entered Dumpshock waaay after starting to work on SoE. Maybe it's just that Dumpshock has an EuroSBs feel, and not the other way round!