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JongWK
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Because this is the latest of the new, strong government/ strong law enforcement books. And the thread on the general board spawned off this one, because of this discussion. I've continued replying here because my posts keep getting replied to here.


I don't see any problem with strong government/strong law enforcement. In fact, some places that fit that description could and do make for excellent SR games. Maybe the stakes are higher, but who's going to object some criminal darwinism? wink.gif


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As Thanos and Dutch have pointed one's man garbage is another man's treasure.


Obviously this is true, but as a company making a product, FanPro should be seeing which idea makes it the most money.


It's been what? Three years? I think FanPro seems to know which idea makes the most money. Otherwise SoE would have never come out after SoNA.


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Of course the "feel is more European", you do realize this is a sourcebook on Europe don't you? Sorry for being flippant but that should go without saying. I fail to see how it makes the book any less "cyberpunk with elves". But that's besides the point


This is the latest book in the series, it just happens to be about Europe.
When I speak of Euro-vs US style, I mean more along the lines of Big Government vs ineffectual government. I'm wondering how shadowrunners operate in the controlled environment, are they all on par with spy agencies?


You're making a mistake here. Big Government does not necessarily translate into effective government. In fact, they can make for horribly ineffective ones--just take a look at the former communist states, Mussolini's Italy, or modern-day democracies like Argentina or Uruguay (trust me on the last one wink.gif).


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In fact, now the Shadowrunners basically are part of the criminal element, and perhaps that distinction wasn't realistic, but some of us enjoyed it.


Sorry, but shadowrunners were, are, and shall always be criminals. You could, however, say that they are freelance criminals.

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From your posts I'm pretty sure than when Shadows of Asia comes out featuring really exotic locations your problems with the style will be even bigger.


If Hong Kong's shadows are diminished, then probably. Japan has long been asked for definition, but really it's more of it's impact on other nations that makes it central to SR, rather than the nation itself. China would be interesting to see, but it's more of a place to stop by for an artifact, rather than a place to run in.


Wrong again. See, I do want to play in Japan and China, and I don't think I'm in the minority on that one. I also think there are more things in China than artifacts (take a look at mid-20s China... now, that's a setting asking for runners!)


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Chief among them because the vast majority of American readers lack the cultural references to understand why the Czech Republic reacted so differently to the Night of Rage than the UK (A reference that goes back to 1st Ed)


If you're going to use the Ignorant American role, then you might also wish to use the Uncaring American.
I surely won't understand why the Czech republic acted differently, true. Nor do I care. it's enough to say they did. If I need more, I have the internet.


I won't address the stereotypes issue (someone did it before me, IIRC), though I think you misunderstood Synner. I'm a South American and I don't know all the subtle differences (both in North America and Europe), but I do want to know a bit about them, because I want a better, different gaming experience. Why travel in the first place if not?


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, how and where the French nobility have been hiding all these years (another reference from 1st Ed)

Right, doesn't matter to the game. Are they here? fine and dandy.


Wrong again. You'd be amazed to know that a lot of people actually appreciate such explanations. For example, I know a lot of people who first though SR was a lame game ("D&D with guns", anyone?), until they start understanding the basics behind it --then they become addicts. grinbig.gif


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, why the hell use the title Lord Protector (another 1st Ed reference) and its implications,

implications are cool, that's what shadowtalk is for. "Hey, what's Lord Protector" "well, what it really means is this" with a short, paragraph of implications. I don't need history, thanks.


Don't you think that the shadowtalk explanation would actually need to mention history? In any case, this a matter of style, not substance.


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Now, I'm not that isolationist, but I think the city, the urban shadows, are more important to Shadowrun than the actual nations.


A city without some national background is useless to me. It could be anywhere on Earth and would probably lack true local flavor that made it unique. I don't want bland, I want spice.
Synner
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 1 2004, 10:23 PM)
And this is the crux of my argument, and my criticisms:  This is a bad way to make not just a Shadowrun book, but a gaming book.  I'm sure that 50 years of fictional history for european nations is academically fascinating to some people, and I can even sort of appreciate such exercises myself.  But as a game tool, it's really really weak.  If you can squeeze it in after more useful information has been supplied, great.

To some History is pure fluff and irrelevant to their games. To others its an essential element. You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

In this particular case, I would argue, however, that history and its ramifications are a very real and living element of European life. One which provides not only roleplaying guidelines (to use some very broad examples: Portuguese characters will always put down Spanish characters on principle any chance they get, Mareinbad secessionists are seen as turncoats by many AGS nationals, the Scand "Union" hides a lot of ill-will towards the Swedes from their neighbors, etc) but more importantly contribute directly to current ongoing plots (to name but a few: the European Restoration/NEEC, the FBV/Nachtmeister/Proteus situation, Spinrad vs. Lofwyr, the Aspecting war, fate of Poland) and while these may be of absolutely no interest to yourself or your gaming group just a gander through the various country threads will show you that this isn't the case with everybody.

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Because like Voce has said, if I'm running a game, players don't care. 

The operative bit there is when you're playing a game. Other people's games are different.

For instance many people draw on the history to give characters (both PCs and NPCs) backgrounds' context. I've seen too many Euro-Wars veterans references to not want to underline the fact that the Wars have been over for at least 30 years and any vets out there are going to be going on 50 at least.

By the same coin, if I were playing a "fallen" Catholic priest character (another rather unexplicably common "archetype") I would appreciate to know what's now available in SoE regarding the Church and its true position on Magic and metahumans (since previous material had apparently contradictory information). Plus the material should give me all the stuff to make the RCC actually an active and multifaceted element in my games (if I so chose) whereas previously it might have been seen as simply yet another boogeyman threat.

Note however that not all the chapters in SoE are history heavy. For instance both Portugal and Italy don't have those histories or have them presented in other contexts . Why? Because the history isn't as important to understand the state of the nation, it is only incidental to certain elements in those cases.
Domino
I think you are trying to joust windmills at this point Synner. They are unable and/or unwilling to get the point you are trying to make.
Birdy
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Aug 2 2004, 01:42 AM)
You're missing the point. There are some things the players will always have to go through you for, but say, for instance, Runner H is planning an escape from the Blue Bevy but needs to pick something up in Butler, then they flee to Chicago. Suddenly, there's an interstate that magically goes way the hell south of where it goes IRL. Where did it turn? Does it go through Chicago? Is it an entirely new road? Suddenly, something that they could have researched themselves using some knowledge of UCAS/NAN borders and a map of the US interstate system turns into something they can't get information about except through you. If Don Giardi is suddenly the big boss in Seattle, the players can't look up some common background information on the Bigios and have it mean anything; again, they have to go through you where they previously didn't need to. I recently had to smuggle a package from Chicago to UCLA. I whip out Wordman's map and bang, there's a route right through the PCC and another through Sioux territory. PCC border security is tight, but what's this? We can get PCC shares? Bingo, we've got our route.

All without talking to the GM, because the GM knew that these tools were out there and was counting on us to use them. If we'd asked he'd have told us, but because we had the books, he didn't need to.

And that is the books doing their jobs.

~J

Sometimes there are IRL / in SR "history" bits that clash because information known to players/GM that's unknown to the writers (i.e the Miners Underground in Rhein-Ruhr extends further than most believe or real-world Autobahnen exist that are not part of SR and wouldn't due to SR history, the MagLev(Transrapid)system in D and it's effects on certain airports etc) And then your example breaks down unless the players use only "official" or "augmented official" (GM changed) material. Most players I know don't own any of the books or only their "Munchkin's focus"

Agree on the Crimelord background. OTOH a "make your syndicate" article would be even better, allowing me to add some of my own, write them down and add them to a "official players folder". Now if maybe FanPro could start printing a "what players can learn" sheet for mayor "official" SR-gangs etc. at the back of the book (i.e. New Corp book and at the back there's a one page overview with "street-level/street-speak" data on each corp to use/copy for the players)

Sourcebooks are a fine line, balancing useful data and uninteresting data (Subjective values as they are) so the majority likes the book (after all it is a commercial venture first). While I'm not a big fan of SoE and some of the thinks they did there (too much Surge, choice of countries[4]) I do like the way the stuff is represented. At least for a GM that's what you need to "get into" a country and start developing scenarios. For a player the stuff is IMHO less useful since they get facts+talk [1] instead of the shadow view (so I can't just hand them the book for research) So if i.e you bring out a Target:Eurowars book detailing the areas where that war took place and how they look today [Are there still christian enclaves in muslim lands i.e) in the SoE-style, I'd be interested.


[1] Question: I own DidS2[2] Could I copy/scan some stuff on say Pomoyra, black out parts of the text and give this as a flyer to my players or does this break into "illegal copies"?

[2] I know I critisise the german setting heavily. My ADL turns out quite different from the book (Actually it's still the BRD and quite a few things never happened[3]) But as above: Some of the stuff is nice and useful. Enough for me to buy it. With SoE there's nice stuff in there but not enough.

[3] I know what a Grubenwehr is. Unlike i.e Mr. Hans "f*****" Alpers it seems

[4] Unlike DidS or T:W the useful:uninteresting ratio was not high enough here

Birdy
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Birdy)
Sometimes there are IRL / in SR "history" bits that clash because information known to players/GM that's unknown to the writers (i.e the Miners Underground in Rhein-Ruhr extends further than most believe or real-world Autobahnen exist that are not part of SR and wouldn't due to SR history, the MagLev(Transrapid)system in D and it's effects on certain airports etc) And then your example breaks down unless the players use only "official" or "augmented official" (GM changed) material. Most players I know don't own any of the books or only their "Munchkin's focus"

But that's already covered by the fact that, even if you have to go to the books, you don't have to go to the GM. You can, if sufficiently motivated, grab the official sourcebooks and go from there. I'm not saying that a real-world map should supplant the books, but that wherever there is nothing in canon, allowing them to be completely or mostly accurate just expands the immersiveness.

As for the copying, it nominally falls under the Fair Use Clause, but if there's alteration of the text (blacking out, etc.) or the inclusion of art, it could still be in violation. That said, I doubt FanPro will go after you unless it's a lot more extensive than you imply.

~J
Birdy
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Birdy @ Aug 2 2004, 06:26 AM)
Sometimes there are IRL / in SR "history" bits that clash because information known to players/GM that's unknown to the writers (i.e the Miners Underground in Rhein-Ruhr extends further than most believe or real-world Autobahnen exist that are not part of SR and wouldn't  due to SR history, the MagLev(Transrapid)system in D and it's effects on certain airports etc) And then your example breaks down unless the players use only "official" or "augmented official" (GM changed) material. Most players I know don't own any of the books or only their "Munchkin's focus"

But that's already covered by the fact that, even if you have to go to the books, you don't have to go to the GM. You can, if sufficiently motivated, grab the official sourcebooks and go from there. I'm not saying that a real-world map should supplant the books, but that wherever there is nothing in canon, allowing them to be completely or mostly accurate just expands the immersiveness.

As for the copying, it nominally falls under the Fair Use Clause, but if there's alteration of the text (blacking out, etc.) or the inclusion of art, it could still be in violation. That said, I doubt FanPro will go after you unless it's a lot more extensive than you imply.

~J

I agree with the "if nothing in cannon reload er if nothing in canon use IRL stuff" but I disagree with the "if...motivated" stuff. They don't own and won't (sometimes: can't [Studends]) buy the books and since the lack information anyway even if the do, they don't get the whole picture.

Add in that I have to "fill in" areas that simply can not be covered (Unless they do a Target:Duisburg, Target:Moers, Target---) book and those are often the bits that interest them, the use is limited. Don't know for the USA (them highrises are a bit difficult to get rid of an them farms get relocated by a strong wind anyway) but "urban reneval" in germay can change a city extremly in 20+ years so city maps are useless. So it would be useful to have an official "highway/airport/train" network of a state/region and some "data-cards"

As for the alteration: It's even less than you might think. I'd just cover the "black out" passages with paper and copy/scan&print the stuff so it'll still be Fasa/Fanpro Shadowrun, including page numbers etc. No WEB-presence, a real-world Aktenordner (physical File folder)


Birdy
Skeptical Clown
QUOTE (Domino)
I think you are trying to joust windmills at this point Synner. They are unable and/or unwilling to get the point you are trying to make.

I get what he's saying perfectly. I simply don't agree that this kind of information is of high value. It's of value, but as support for more solid information. By his example, I might know that Portuguese will always put down the Spanish... but I still don't know enough to run an adventure there, so it's no practical use.
Michael
I picked up Shadows of Europe this past weekend and I've enjoyed the read. Speaking as an American player of Shadowrun, I enjoyed the European history and background. It's nice knowing what is currently happening, but I believe it's just as important to know why they're happening. I think the background presented in the book does a good job of giving you historical reasons for current situations.

In regards to the game direction, I feel it's important for the world to be moving even without the players. While it is true that their incarnation of the world would stop without them, I think the game must always go forward. I like to have a story going on without the players; that way, it always gives them more options.

For instance, I spent a decent amount of time putting together an adventure. I was hoping for it to last for a few weeks, maybe even monthes. It never even started. Maybe it wasn't interesting, maybe I'm a poor GM, or maybe they just had different ideas, but we never got around to it. Due to other stories going on at the same time, totally independent of the players, I was able to present different options, just by them asking around for work. I was able to give some opening lines on what was happening in different area's, tell them about whispers in the shadows, and allow them to direct where they'd like to go. I think, while their story is the most important one, there should always be a few stories going on in the background.

A final note, seeing posters on dumpshock published in a sourcebook is pretty impressive. It's a nice touch of familiarity. It's nice seeing people who you can converse regularly with be successful in a venture. Hopefully, it will lead to me working on a submission. It can't hurt, and by seeing people on a message board you frequent (or lurk at), it makes you feel like you have a decent shot if you put in the effort.

Hope I made some sense.
Michael
Dutch-DK
QUOTE (VoceNoctum @ Posted: Aug 1 2004, 08:06 PM)

This is the latest book in the series, it just happens to be about Europe.
When I speak of Euro-vs US style, I mean more along the lines of Big Government vs ineffectual government. I'm wondering how shadowrunners operate in the controlled environment, are they all on par with spy agencies?


They use brains and are not on par with any agency.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Birdy)
I agree with the "if nothing in cannon reload er if nothing in canon use IRL stuff" but I disagree with the "if...motivated" stuff. They don't own and won't (sometimes: can't [Studends]) buy the books and since the lack information anyway even if the do, they don't get the whole picture.

Add in that I have to "fill in" areas that simply can not be covered (Unless they do a Target:Duisburg, Target:Moers, Target---) book and those are often the bits that interest them, the use is limited. Don't know for the USA (them highrises are a bit difficult to get rid of an them farms get relocated by a strong wind anyway) but "urban reneval" in germay can change a city extremly in 20+ years so city maps are useless. So it would be useful to have an official "highway/airport/train" network of a state/region and some "data-cards"

As for the alteration: It's even less than you might think. I'd just cover the "black out" passages with paper and copy/scan&print the stuff so it'll still be Fasa/Fanpro Shadowrun, including page numbers etc. No WEB-presence, a real-world Aktenordner (physical File folder)


Birdy

Of course there will be things that aren't covered, but the more you can tie it in with stuff that is covered, the more effective the books will be. If it's completely disconnected from anything the books cover (and your examples do not count! Duisburg, regardless of whether or not it is covered in any detail, nonetheless has a specific location in relation to the Shadowrun borders. This is valuable information that you can get without a GM filling anything in, unless the city has migrated by fifty kilometers or more), then the odds are that the player wouldn't know anything about it without checking anyway. Even if they did, you can obviously make this break down by going remote, but that doesn't change the fact that one ought to be able to use the canon books to make informed decisions about the areas that are covered.

And I'm not saying that FanPro's going to mind, I'm just saying that one could theoretically argue that it is alteration of intellectual property. Though come to think of it, so is including something without its surrounding context (the book in its entirety), so it's probably protected. Also, I'm talking US law, so that's semirelevant at best anyway.

~J
Sepherim
Okay, I know this is a bit late, but I've been away a couple days so I couldn't answer before.

QUOTE (Thanos007 @ Aug 2 2004, 01:04 AM)
I can only quess that the Basques have there own country now. Well why? How did that happen? Centuries of oppression and repression and violence by Spain. Well why? Well they are ethnically different from most of the population of Spain and had their own county at one time. When the awakening come and the year(s) of chaos they fought for independence. They still don't get along with Spain.

The story is a bit long and depends a lot on everything that happens in Spain from 2005 to 2030. Still, the most important fact is that the spanish military and police grids were affected by the Crash virus, and Basque diplomats quickly used this to gain their independence in the moment of weakness.

Still, having their own country and being different from the Spanish is nothing speciall about them. Spain was built uniting four different Kingdoms (not taking into account Spanish's close relationship with Portugal), each of which had their own traditions. As a simple example of this, in Spain (a country quite small in size) four different official languages are spoken, and two more are trying to obtain the official status.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Domino)
I think you are trying to joust windmills at this point Synner. They are unable and/or unwilling to get the point you are trying to make.

Quite the opposite. I understand their opinion completely, yet disagree. It seems more so that my opinion is being misunderstood.

1) Flavor text is good, but should be based on what will best push forward a setting based on characters that are shadowrunners. If history is needed, it should be a high-point style.

2) The sourcebooks can't provide every detail, it's unrealistic to expect so. Try to focus on the details important to the game and remember what the game is about.

3) Shadowrunners are criminals, but they are on a tier of their own. They are not organized crime, nor are they random thugs. They have a system in place, and numbers of comrades. Moving repeatedly and leaving contacts and settings behind to avoid jail is not fun.

4) Shadowrunners are repeat offenders. They could take all the precautions to prevent everything, but frankly the intricate level of detail and planning is tedious. The game is a game.

While I can understand that folks dont' agree with me, I'm met with posts saying runners don't need to know what streets are where (though I never protested detailed road maps in each SR product, I do indeed believe they would be a mistake. Therefor I suppose that was a valid criticism of my opinions that were unstated at that point. I hereby concede that field to the Pro-Roadmap folks. smile.gif
When I say folks have influence, I'm told they don't. When I point out what influence means, I'm told yeah, but they earned it.
I'm told Shadowrun has evolved, like any game must, and yet at the same time, I'm told it hasn't changed and my perceptions are at fault. smile.gif

So, perhaps my groups former and present are unprofessional. We don't worry about every intricate detail, subsuming many details into background stuff that the PC may know, but the Player doesn't need to. Its not important how to get somewhere, and no Shadowrun product will tell me if there's a ice cream parlor on the street if a player asks. That's what a GM is for.
We don't worry about having to hide the presence of our car from everpresent cameras, because if so, they'd point out exactly where we are at every moment, and the game would break down.

So, yes, if someone doesn't understand how I feel at this point, rebutting me again or calling my opinions "wrong" won't change my opinions.

I will say I like the country maps in SoE better than previous maps. Very handy in general. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
A note on my stance: Runners often don't need to know what streets are where, and streets can usually be fiated. However, it's usually a bit more important to know, even if generally, what highways are where.

~J
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A note on my stance: Runners often don't need to know what streets are where, and streets can usually be fiated. However, it's usually a bit more important to know, even if generally, what highways are where.

~J

Yes, though in a more general attitude it's required to know their presence or absence.

It's generally easier for a player to tell me "I'd like to plan a route to the nearest highway heading South and blah blah blah" then it is for me to list what highways are there.
Kagetenshi
But that's why we buy books, so the GM doesn't have to list off every highway smile.gif

~J
Thanos007
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1) Flavor text is good, but should be based on what will best push forward a setting based on characters that are shadowrunners. If history is needed, it should be a high-point style.


Not quite sure what you mean by "a setting based on characters that are shadowrunners."

No I wasn't mocking you. I was over exageration to make a point. Which BitBasher's link tells me is bad. So, ok. I was mocking you. But just a little smile.gif

Your most recent post has cleared up your stance for me, which previously I had taken as a very minimalist/non-existent fluff stance. You indicate that you don't actually mind fluff you just have problems with it's execution.

On to Kagetenshi. I generally try to stick close to cannon. My players do take notes. However (and I don't really mind this as it makes my job easier) they don't really do research out side of game sessions.

Thanos
Skeptical Clown
I regret even mentioning the terms "Fluff" and "Crunch," because I think it sets off peoples' little "Role-playing good, Roll-playing bad, Hulk Smash!" alarms (or vice versa). Once that alarm goes off people just stop thinking and start seeking blood.

I tend to think of game information as having three tiers. Tier 1 information is the kind of information that is of immediate and practical use to all players and gamemasters alike. This is primarily the rules and game statistics that are used in establishing the game world, although it's also the most basic setting information (Shadowrun is a game about the a dark, magical near future; The players are shadowrunners, whose job it is to break into corporate facilities for pay, and other assorted dirty work, etc.)

Second-tier information is material that is a step removed from the characters, useful for players to know but nearly essential for gamemasters to know; this is information like which megacorporation is which and what their essential attributes are, what Seattle is and where the significant places and neighborhoods of the city are, etc, although also some information that's occasionally directly relevant to the players, like availability and critter statistics.

Third-Tier information is comprised of information primarily or exclusively the domain of gamemasters, which includes the contents of books like Threats, deep-seated historical facts, the plots of various powerful entities, and also game stastics that are used for more uncommon situations, like manawarps, or situations that don't directly affect the runners, like corporate statistics.

It's good to have third-tier information. It can even be handy to have an entire book full of third-tier information, sometimes. But in a location guide, I expect it to take up less space than second-tier material. It's supplemental information, as opposed to applicable information.
Paul
I think thats an intresting way of classifying information presented, but I do wonder how and when you draw the line?

After all what you call third tier information could suddenly play an essential role in character generation or even a game while so called first tier information becomes of secondary importance to the game.

I'd also take issue with this statement:


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Third-Tier information is comprised of information primarily or exclusively the domain of gamemasters, which includes the contents of books like Threats, deep-seated historical facts, the plots of various powerful entities, and also game stastics that are used for more uncommon situations, like manawarps, or situations that don't directly affect the runners, like corporate statistics.


All of that directly effects every player. Maybe its effects vary in both scope and power, but each of those events you decribed can effect/affect your characters actions. They are a part of your world. Its like saying what happens at NASA means nothing to people on the street. Go to your local supermarket. See tang? Viola.

But none of this has anything to do with reviewing SoE.
Skeptical Clown
See, that's not a direct effect. That's an INDIRECT effect. NASA didn't come and hand you Tang personally. Tang reaching your hand was the result of a long chain of events. That's what direct and indirect effects are.
tjn
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
It's supplemental information, as opposed to applicable information.

For a cohesive setting, such as SoNA or SoE, give me what you term as supplemental information any day.

I can derive what you term applicable information from the supplemental and still maintain a cohesive and logical setting. Applicable information is of less use due to it's inheirant singular and disconnected nature.

Give me the Why, and I will come up with a multitude of interrelated, and logical, Whats.

Give me only the Whats and the inferred Whys will have to do some logical acrobatics to make any sense.
Kagetenshi
Not necessarily. FanPro and the writers need a why, but they don't need to tell us all of the why, they just need to use it to come up with the whats. A little why is good, but whats from a single why, if there are enough of them, ought to be reverse-engineerable to at least one sensible why.

~J
tjn
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Not necessarily. FanPro and the writers need a why, but they don't need to tell us all of the why, they just need to use it to come up with the whats. A little why is good, but whats from a single why, if there are enough of them, ought to be reverse-engineerable to at least one sensible why.

~J

Personally, I don't need Fanpro to come up with the whats. I come up with the what off the cuff ten times a night when I gm, so long as I have the why down firm.

And while one should be able to reverse engineer the why in an RPG sourcebook, often times it's impossible because the whats were never even created with a why in mind from the start.
Synner
I beg to differ on that one, at least as regards SR, my experience is that almost everything that sees print has a Why built in, even if it's unclear - often this doesn't carry down to future writers though. However having the What's detailed the way they are in books like SoE and SoNA should allow a GM a decent run at creating his own Whys.

Getting back on subject while I understand Skeptical's categorization I throughly disagree with it simply because each game dictates different things. Most of my players get to read all the sourcebooks and "fluff" therein. In this way their characters (which almost uniformly have access to Shadowland) have access to everything they want (if they can remember or access it on the fly is something entirely different). For instance, when researching Poland on the flight to Lodz on a mission, they did Shadowland searches and dredged up the file in SoE as well as numerous other handouts I had prepared.

Also Skeptical is taking a throughly functional approach to the material, one that is far too limited from my perspective as a gamer. As a reader I don't think in functional terms. I want some rules (not many SR is complex enough as it is) at the back, lots of background I can use on as many levels as possible (as a player, as a GM, for background, for plothooks, to ground my own plothooks, etc) and customize. This later part is very important as people's games have already covered vacuums in the setting and rules on their own. New rules and developments can fly in the face of what has been established in someone's game so writing stuff is a balancing act (Crimsondudes POV if I read him correctly). Skeptical's first category is only really necessary in a corebook. While sourcebooks are known as such because they provide source material that covers the setting on multiple levels that overlap his second and third categorization (although I disagree that "third-tier" information. The vast majority of current day players prefer it that way).

However people are failing to make an important distinction here. There are two issues at stake there is "format" and there is "contents" (something I've tried to underline before with regards to VoceNoctum's posts). These should ideally be discussed as distinct issues. As relates to SoE, and the subject of this thread, the former sets a style, depth and limits upon the latter.

VoceNoctum's and Sketpical's, while not commenting on the different aspects, have been aimed indistinctly against both the contents and the format. However from what I've been understood of their complaints they're essentially pointing fingers at the format, since this dictates the type of contents(not only of SoE but of the Shadows of and other recent books).

For instance it seems a lot of what VoceNoctum's comments seem to indicate he'd be okay with Seattle-format books for sprawls rather than the Shadows of format. That is one issue. If a "Shadows of" book does not allow for individual locations or gangs within a city (although SoE had both here and there) then it isn't really reasonable to expect them in such a book (especially when there is already a reference on hand to compare to) - hence someone who has a problem with this (or the fact that its abotu distant unusable countries, etc) is actually complaining about a given "format" of book (and assumes all future "Shadows of" books follow the same style).

Another issue entirely is evaluating the contents provided by a certain book within an established format. Some of VoceNoctum's comments regarding strong government, though arguably unfounded, are directly aimed at the contents rather than the format while most of Skeptical's complaints for instance are appeear to be derived from the limitations imposed by the "format".

VoceNoctum - At least as regards the statement about "Shadowrun evolving" the problem is you are implying that evolution means that the foundations or basics have essentially changed. However, many of the people who have been replying to you have been argueing that the fundamentals are still the same, SR has just grown out, but the core is still exactly the same. So their statement isn't necessarily contradictory, evolution does mean change but that change can be attained by simply adding new depths rather than changing what was there.
Thanos007
What a long strange trip it's been. But worth it.

QUOTE
It's good to have third-tier information. It can even be handy to have an entire book full of third-tier information, sometimes. But in a location guide, I expect it to take up less space than second-tier material


Well, if not there, then where?

Thanos
Skeptical Clown
QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 3 2004, 08:44 AM)
However people are failing to make an important distinction here. There are two issues at stake there is "format" and there is "contents" (something I've tried to underline before with regards to VoceNoctum's posts). These should ideally be discussed as distinct issues. As relates to SoE, and the subject of this thread, the former sets a style, depth and limits upon the latter.

The problem is that both the format and the content are related. To borrow someone else's terminology, Shadowrun is a game that is viewed from the bottom-up people live in the shadows and gutters of civilization (figuratively.) The game is supposed to be viewed from their angle. In earlier books, this was obvious; many of the sourcebooks were "official" documents that were intended for the norm, but hacked by runners and anarchists and given their more jaded viewpoint.

This kind of viewpoint has shifted over time, through all editions really, but it's most apparent in the more recent 3rd edition books; now we see many things from a top-down perspective. The point of my tier-system wasn't to rate the importance of information, but the way in which information flows. 1st-tier information is required just to run a bare-bones game; 2nd-tier information gives the game flesh, but is only useful if the 1st tier information can support the game world provided (it's useless to have descriptions of magic and monsters if there aren't rules for magical effects and critters); 3rd-tier information is only relevant insofar as it supports the 2nd-information (It doesn't matter that Ares owns the city of Detroit, if you don't know anything about Detroit.)

Although within the conceit of the fictional world, the movers and shakers may be important and powerful, within the practical application of the game, they exist primarily for the benefit of creating atmosphere for the players and the context for their characters. The setting may not revolve around the shadowrunners, but the GAME does. This is important to keep in mind. The flavor of the game depends on who the players are and what they see and do. Thus, the format of the book is inevitably going to affect the flavor.

I am hard on SoE not because it is a terrible book; there are things in it I like and may use. But I find that it's overall style has the wrong approach, and because it also represents a trend that I dislike. I've also criticized the non-punk atmosphere of the book, but that has been addressed already. People don't understand the approach I'm coming at about the format, so I have to address that at least.

Addendum: And I don't think my "tiers" applies purely to the practical side of gaming either. The runners aren't going to be directly concerned with the schemes of high-level figures; they're concerned with the more immediate impact that has on them. A run does not go from the corporate executive to the runners; the executive might have some over-arcing plan, but it goes down through various corporate managers and functionaries. Who knows what happens between there and the Mr. Johnson. Suffice to say, the average runner simply isn't going to see more than a small piece of the larger plan; just glimpses. It can be handy to have an idea of the over-riding arc, but it's not something that's more than a piece of background infromation flitting past. The more immediate situation of the shadowrun is the more pressing matter on their minds.

That's what kind of made Lofwyr scary and unique in the past. He was inscrutable, a genius, and fearsomely controlling; if there was any being that DID know what was going on everywhere, that COULD scare the runners into thinking that a major power was specifically targetting them, it was Lofwyr. I think that's been diluted.
Thanos007
QUOTE
The problem is that both the format and the content are related


Yes. I belive Syn to be correct on this.

QUOTE
Shadowrun is a game that is viewed from the bottom-up people live in the shadows and gutters of civilization (figuratively.)


It's viewed from the outside in. Eventually, providing they don't die or are incarcerated, your shadowruners will make money. They will be at the very least comfortable if not well off. I mean thats the idea right? To make money by being a professional criminal.

QUOTE
In earlier books, this was obvious; many of the sourcebooks were "official" documents that were intended for the norm, but hacked by runners and anarchists and given their more jaded viewpoint.


Jaded? Yes. Down trodden? Yes. Alienated? Yes. Societal outsiders? Yes. Poor? No. A cyberdeck costs how much? One that can get you in to shadowland, I mean?

QUOTE
The flavor of the game depends on who the players are and what they see and do. Thus, the format of the book is inevitably going to affect the flavor.


Through the filter of the GM.

QUOTE
Addendum: And I don't think my "tiers" applies purely to the practical side of gaming either. The runners aren't going to be directly concerned with the schemes of high-level figures; they're concerned with the more immediate impact that has on them.


I don't know about you but I'm pretty concerned with the schemes of high-level figures in my country. Particularly the Bush guy. He worries me. I just realised, while being snarky (sorry), that you are selling the movers and shakers short. Just look at the present day. You think NAFTA hasn't had an impact on your life (if you live in North America)? You don't think it would have been good to know it's ramifications before hand and take appropriate action? Man just think. A few shadowruns against key voting members and no NAFTA. Wet work, blackmail. What ever it took.

Everybody does runs for Corp B against Corp X (which BTW is my favorite mega). What about internal runs. A lot of runs are probably internal as people jockey for position.

Thanos
VoceNoctum
QUOTE
However people are failing to make an important distinction here. There are two issues at stake there is "format" and there is "contents" (something I've tried to underline before with regards to VoceNoctum's posts). These should ideally be discussed as distinct issues. As relates to SoE, and the subject of this thread, the former sets a style, depth and limits upon the latter.

The two issues are interrelated with SoE though, because both are present. The flavor of the setting is too Controled for my view of SR, at the same time the format focuses on large issues that don't directly affect the game as it applies to Shadowrunners.

QUOTE
At least as regards the statement about "Shadowrun evolving" the problem is you are implying that evolution means that the foundations or basics have essentially changed. However, many of the people who have been replying to you have been argueing that the fundamentals are still the same, SR has just grown out, but the core is still exactly the same. So their statement isn't necessarily contradictory, evolution does mean change but that change can be attained by simply adding new depths rather than changing what was there.
The game style and setting is different. It has evolved to that point. This discussion has actually been very limited to just a few posters, so there don't really seem to be "many" people replying at all, let alone a high percentage against what I said, if they even are sure what I meant at all.
It's about the feel of the game.
Thanos007
QUOTE
The game style and setting is different. It has evolved to that point. This discussion has actually been very limited to just a few posters, so there don't really seem to be "many" people replying at all, let alone a high percentage against what I said, if they even are sure what I meant at all.
It's about the feel of the game.


No. I think they do understand it. The 80's and early 90's are gone. It can NEVER be exactly that game again. Just as the style of films, books, music from those times has mostly ceased to exist and is no longer being produced. The styles have evolved. They still make rock songs about love, violence but they don't sound like they did in the 50's. I have a pretty good Idea as to your response but I'll wait for your posting.

Thanos
Paul
Say how do I pronounce VoceNoctum any ways? Just for my peace of mind.

QUOTE ("VoceNoctum")
The two issues are interrelated with SoE though, because both are present.


Well I should hope they are both present. It wouldn't make for much of a book with out either. smile.gif Seriously though, ever book printed in Shadowrun can be divided in some fashion to content and format.

QUOTE
The flavor of the setting is too Controled for my view of SR, at the same time the format focuses on large issues that don't directly affect the game as it applies to Shadowrunners.


Okay by too controlled do you mean it limits your options in game? because I am just not seeing that? Or do you mean "If I choose to stick with canoon events as presented in the book, I can only see one logical conclusion."? Either way I will disagree with you.

Synner, and the rest of the Euro crew has absolutely no control over how I implement what they wrote. Thats my decision, and to an extent that of my players. We decide what we will concentrate on, and what we will use out of any book.

I will stress what Thanos has already said, I think you guys are selling the "Major Players" (I am not even sure which "Players" you gusy are unhappy with, since in this entire review thread all I have heard is "Well I just don't like the feel" so its hard for me to specifically address specific situations to help you find something useful for your game. That's of course assuming you're looking for something useful.) short.

Lofwyr decides to take a midnight flight. He flys up high. He decides to execute the deadly, and stinky Dragon-dooky on the run manuever and drops a load on Berlin. I can make a run out of that.

His every action is important. And despite whatever I have read so far in any Shadowrun book I am no closer to understanding him in any real important way. Sure I can assume through what I have read in the possiblely true Shadowtalk sections (Although possibely not true as well) that he wants to power. Well great, him and 6 fraggin' billion other people on this dirt ball. Why? Do you know? I'd be willing to bet that not even the line developers know for certain every aspect of him. Especially since like every character he evolves and changes.

I've come to the conclusion a lot of people are being purposefully obtuse in this matter. I think as soon as I am finished reading the book I'll post my review and give this a rest.
Kagetenshi
By strict latin pronounciation, it'd be wo as in the classic Keanu Reeves "Whoa", ke as in ciceda, and then noc as in knock and tum as in tomb, but a little shorter.

Church latin, it'd be vo as in vocation, che as in Cheney.

~J
Skeptical Clown
I don't think anyone has argued in favor of busting down peoples' doors and forcing them to play Shadowrun one way. That idea is so ludicrous that I think it goes without saying, and thus, no one has felt the need to bring it up. Because it's just assumed that we're talking about the presentation of the GAME, and not peoples' individual games. That said, if you want to run a game about Lofwyr, and his bowel movements are useful to your game, then hey, you run a crazy game and I want no part of it, but I'm not going to stop you. But if you're going to start writing Lofwyr's bowel movements into game material, then yes, I'm going to say that's stupid and you're doing damage to the game. Please stop.

And that's really the point: The game used to be focused on shadowrunning, because the game is called Shadowrun. Now, apparently, people prefer BowelQuest starring Lofwyr. I protest, because I preferred the old game.
Kanada Ten
I always thought they should remane it The Sixth World, as Shadowrun was so 1990.
Skeptical Clown
Maybe they should, since we could at least lay Shadowrun to rest as dead, and the people who prefer to play something that's not, can continue to enjoy themselves wink.gif

Or maybe someone else could resurrect Shadowrun as, well, Shadowrun.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Thanos007)

No. I think they do understand it. The 80's and early 90's are gone. It can NEVER be exactly that game again. Just as the style of films, books, music from those times has mostly ceased to exist and is no longer being produced.

Yes, exactly so, the game has changed to something other than what it was back then. I never said the change was bad or good, though I prefer the other style. Not that I liked everything of the time frame, but still.
If it's selling better now, than the new direction is a good idea, from a business sense.
Sepherim
Well, to a minor degree, they did settle a certain difference when they changed the logo from first and second edition to the new one on the third. And they changed the cover from the BBB too.
VoceNoctum

QUOTE
Say how do I pronounce VoceNoctum any ways? Just for my peace of mind.
You don't pronounce it, since it's only Online. You just type it smile.gif

QUOTE

Okay by too controlled do you mean it limits your options in game? because I am just not seeing that? Or do you mean "If I choose to stick with canoon events as presented in the book, I can only see one logical conclusion."? Either way I will disagree with you.

I mean Controlled in regard to Governmental/ Law Enforcement/ Corporate control in the setting. No FanPro Ninja's striking at the gaming table, just in game stuff.

QUOTE
Lofwyr decides to take a midnight flight. He flys up high. He decides to execute the deadly, and stinky Dragon-dooky on the run manuever and drops a load on Berlin. I can make a run out of that.

Some of us just don't have your Capabilities.
VoceNoctum
blah
Synner
Just to underline my point before we get sidetracked. The reason I brought up format and content is, to put it simply, any gripe you may have against the format isn't really directed at SoE in particular, it could just as easily (as Skeptical pointed out earlier) have been aimed at SoNA. In fact I believe the reason it didn't happen is because SoNA is complemented by at least 8 sourcebooks on North Am nations which fill in a lot of the details (but not all) Voce and Skeptical are complaining about. Meanwhile SoE is complemented by 3 books of which 2 have been OOP since early 2nd Edition (however as I said in the lead up to the release, those of you who possess London, TNO and Germany should be able to see where everything is coming from and how the contents of the books tie together).

Anyway back on subject - in terms of format everything was pretty much locked down - except that SoE needed the extra pages to allocate information that would have been redundant in SoNA (the crime scene, the corps and the underworld). Other than the format was established. It is to be expected that people who own SoNA should know exactly what to expect from another "Shadows of" book... especially when it was said time and time again that SoE would follow SoNA's format and Shadows of Asia should follow that format too. There was no indication anywhere that the "Shadows of" book would adopt a different style and the vast majority of the critiques that have been leveled so far are aiming at the form rather than the contents. So IMHO discussing format as relates to SoE is a bit off point.

Regarding the overall contents however, as people on both sides of this debate have mentioned previously SR has evolved, however, I disagree that its lost any of its essence, its just expanded on it. Yes, it is more cosmopolitan and global - as it should be, professional criminals/independent espionage agents (which is what I believe runners to be) should move around a lot more. This doesn't mean it's less urban or sprawl bound just that its not street-corner bound.

Skeptical said its less punk - I disagree, by definition to be "punk" (even in cyberpunk) is to be anti-establishment, anti-authoritarian and counterculture and if anything SoE is more of all those things.

VoceNostrum said its more restrictive and governments are more powerful, I disagree again but then again I don't share his optimistic view of how modern governments are directed, set their agendas and how efficent they are - in SR their fractured and bickering nature just makes my view of them worse. Finally

The final note is as relates to the major players introduced in SoE and the 'level' of those major players. I'd begin by agreeing with everyone who believes that the major players are exactly what SR is all about simply because of the extent that even the smallest ramifications their actions have. These shockwaves are at the heart of the most important events that trickle down to the shadows to affect runners directly and indirectly. So telling GMs those players agendas allows them to adapt (or not) how those priorities and goals will impact their game - not in a "steal that prototype from Renraku to S-K" way but providing a basic plotline for multiple runs to be constructed around (ie. "S-K is desperately trying to get the inside scoop on Erika's WMI and Transys is trying to keep Golden Snout out because the WMI may mean the end of S-K dominance in the European Matrix sector" should allow GMs to build numerous adventures around the plot if they so choose).
But as regards Europe, there's an additional comment that needs to be made, one which is underlined throughout the book. I'd call it "direct involvement" - its mentioned throughout that Europe is a smaller theatre, that things are done differently and that because of those cosmopolitan aspects (above) make trust a premium - the major players get their hands dirty and are directly involved in the shadows and the underworld (see NEEC, France, Italy, Portugal for numerous examples). As such their agendas are immediately relevant to shadowrunners operating here and more so than in North Am, you might find yourself rubbing shoulders with Johnny Spinrad or Emmanuel Salles or M. de Rochefort in a nightclub talking business. This doesn't detract from the atmosphere if you don't want it to. It should mean these people do not trust anyone else to act as middle men and underlines how intrigue-ladden Europe is.
Skeptical Clown
There had only been one Shadows book. The ideas expressed here had occured to me then, but did not crystallize until I sat down and started reading SoE. The only reason I didn't express these opinions then is because it just didn't occur to me. Prior to SoNA, I really had few problems with location books; most of them were exactly what I expected, and I have few complaints about them. With a Shadows second book, a pattern has been established, and I felt compelled to speak out and say "Hey, this is a bad trend." And really, it is. Because if you're writing new material on a region, why should a buyer be forced to go find some out of print and outdated material just to make use of it?

Anyway, I don't see any logical reason for Johnny Spinrad or the Pope to be rubbing shoulders with runners. If that's the angle you were going for, I don't see it in the book at all. Like the punk atmosphere, it seems to be something that you SAY is in there, but doesn't come across from a reading.
Kagetenshi
Spinrad's got lots of reasons. He's in it deep. The pope much less so. Even in the middle ages he had flunkies to do the dirty work for him.

~J
Skeptical Clown
The pope part was tongue in cheek; I was simply pointing out that while Synner might think that Spinrad is likely to interact with runners, I don't see anything in the BOOK to suggest that.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE
Regarding the overall contents however, as people on both sides of this debate have mentioned previously SR has evolved, however, I disagree that its lost any of its essence, its just expanded on it. Yes, it is more cosmopolitan and global - as it should be, professional criminals/independent espionage agents (which is what I believe runners to be) should move around a lot more. This doesn't mean it's less urban or sprawl bound just that its not street-corner bound.

Because SR has evolved into what you like, you don't see it as a major change. I'm sure you always prefered your style and viewed the game through it. The atmosphere the current books have is antithetical to the feel of SR that I got from the early books, and therefor I say it has changed into something I don't like.

Perhaps the early SR was more open to both our play styles, and the current one is closed to my play style. I could study the old books and craft a carefully worded thesis on The Evolution of Shadowrun, but that's somehow unlikely, given my time.

QUOTE
Skeptical said its less punk - I disagree, by definition to be "punk" (even in cyberpunk) is to be anti-establishment, anti-authoritarian and counterculture and if anything SoE is more of all those things.

My problem with it is while you can play a Punk Vs Government system, the Shadowrun culture that seemed to be there in the early books isn't there anymore. The game's playability is the most important factor to me. How useful are those initial two contacts you start with when you have to leave your home turf every 3 runs?
Shadowrun was a delicate balance, freelance cat burglars and information specialists that lived in a city with an entire community of others with teh same skills. There were fixers and Mr Johnsons, and they were mostly independent from organized crime and gangs. Now to say that there are such organizations in every city is one thing,but drawing them out to the point where they're all well known to each other (well known enough to broker a job for a runner new to the area) is just not something I can see.

QUOTE
you might find yourself rubbing shoulders with Johnny Spinrad or Emmanuel Salles or M. de Rochefort in a nightclub talking business. This doesn't detract from the atmosphere if you don't want it to. It should mean these people do not trust anyone else to act as middle men and underlines how intrigue-ladden Europe is.

If I see Spinrad in a club, I'll shoot him and bill Lofwyr. smile.gif
These people shouldn't be in the club, they shouldn't be rubbing shoulders with runners. If they can't trust middlemen they know, they certainly can't trust strangers. And, if the characters know anything about the digital document on Europe that just hit the matrix, then they know exactly who they all are.

Though, that particular thread aggravates me. I liked Lofwyr, always did. SK was the most powerful corp by some outlooks, and giving him setbacks over and over diminishs that. Lofwyr was never a direct player, but FanPro has taken him as some kind of bad-guy dominator type that it's good to oppose. Now the human corps crawl from the woodworks to oppose him because of who he is.
If Graf Beloise couldn't hold on to her corp, that's her own problem, stop blaming the Wyrm smile.gif

Couple that with the diminished role of the ACTUAL AAA's in Europe besides Lofwyr, and Europe really is it's own little world. Haven't finished everything yet, so maybe I've just missed them, but the homebrew's seem more important than the AAA's.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
The pope part was tongue in cheek; I was simply pointing out that while Synner might think that Spinrad is likely to interact with runners, I don't see anything in the BOOK to suggest that.

Dragons of the Sixth World implies it once you know that Weaver is Spinrad. And I just now got the pun.
Synner
QUOTE
QUOTE
Yes, it is more cosmopolitan and global - as it should be, professional criminals/independent espionage agents (which is what I believe runners to be) should move around a lot more. This doesn't mean it's less urban or sprawl bound just that its not street-corner bound.

Because SR has evolved into what you like, you don't see it as a major change. I'm sure you always prefered your style and viewed the game through it.

SR has not necessarily evolved into something I like, in fact, one of the reasons I got into writing was because I hoped to "influence" the game away from some things I didn't like. You'd also be incorrect in your assumption of my tastes and what my game is like (you can look up a sample in the Welcome to the Shadows Forum - the defunct Second Twist is pretty gritty and street-level by anyones standards). I'd even venture to say that between 1991 and 97 my game probably resembled yours. Street-level, gritty, essentially sprawl bound, rare trips out of town for contrast and variety, traditional johnsons offering corp-oriented runs or investigative plots sometimes a personal development dragging the characters into trouble. Then things started changing, mainly because I ran the original Harlequin pretty late, and I discovered my players actually liked seeing the Sixth World beyond the sprawl. In fact one of my players brought up the issue that more that fixers should really be more international in their networking after all how many runs and supply sources are available in a single sprawl at any given time. Also they complained I wasn't doing much with the political scene (my previous Ars Magica game had been particularly political) and that we were getting in a rut. I realized I hadn't been listening to what they wanted and asked them to tell me. They wanted the cyberpunk stuff, they wanted the noir, they wanted the corporate action, they wanted the challenges they were getting but they also wanted more adult and contemporary themes, they wanted me to do with the game what I'd been forcing them to do with their characters (my current players build their characters from backgrounds they first present to me - stats and numbers come after a plausible background). They wanted to know who was doing what to whom in politics, they wanted to carve out their own niche and influence (one wanted to eventually retire and become a fixer), they wanted the stuff that they saw in the sourcebooks reflected in our game not just as background but as part of the whole experience. They wanted to be able to influence their little corner of the world rather than just be the outsiders and neverdowells. I started giving them what they wanted and never looked back.

Note - I'm going to be very careful here and explain what I understand by "influence" above so we get that out of the way too. What I mean by "influence the game" is simply to submit material myself that goes in a direction I prefer. That's as far as it goes. I don't mean "suggest to Rob Boyle that something isn't a good idea", or "lobby for something to be done in a certain way" in my experience that has never happened and I have yet to see a situation where an author has been required to deviate significantly from his submission. As far as I'm concerned if anyone wants to influence Shadowrun all they have to do is make a good pitch and hope Rob likes what he sees, and that is the one and only way I've seen it happen.

QUOTE
The atmosphere the current books have is antithetical to the feel of SR that I got from the early books, and therefor I say it has changed into something I don't like.

You believe it antithetical, I (and I believe many more people) believe it to be complementary.

QUOTE
Perhaps the early SR was more open to both our play styles, and the current one is closed to my play style. I could study the old books and craft a carefully worded thesis on The Evolution of Shadowrun, but that's somehow unlikely, given my time.

That I can agree with.

QUOTE
My problem with it is while you can play a Punk Vs Government system, the Shadowrun culture that seemed to be there in the early books isn't there anymore. The game's playability is the most important factor to me. How useful are those initial two contacts you start with when you have to leave your home turf every 3 runs?

My players rarely start off with less than 5 contacts (some have as many as 15) at least one of which is a fixer or dealer with international connections (realistically most fixers will have one), then of course there's Shadowland and all the other sources at the disposal of the team decker (Matrix has quite a bit on this as does Target:Matrix). And then there's Friends of Friends or (less trustworthy) contacts your Fixer can arrange. This isn't a problem if your guys have their wits about them.

QUOTE
Shadowrun was a delicate balance, freelance cat burglars and information specialists that lived in a city with an entire community of others with teh same skills. There were fixers and Mr Johnsons, and they were mostly independent from organized crime and gangs. Now to say that there are such organizations in every city is one thing,but drawing them out to the point where they're all well known to each other (well known enough to broker a job for a runner new to the area) is just not something I can see.

They don't all have to know each other; fixers and Johnsons particularly will have contacts, either with other fixers or with other suppliers.

QUOTE
If I see Spinrad in a club, I'll shoot him and bill Lofwyr. smile.gif

You could try... and then there's the issue of why someone would pay you for a job you've already done for free.

QUOTE
These people shouldn't be in the club, they shouldn't be rubbing shoulders with runners. If they can't trust middlemen they know, they certainly can't trust strangers. And, if the characters know anything about the digital document on Europe that just hit the matrix, then they know exactly who they all are.

I'm not saying its common, just that it happens. Spinrad won't be out in the open, he'll be playing on his hometurf, he'll be in his nightclub but he'll be talking to runners personally and he'll have had them go through trial runs and will have dossiers on them before hand. Runners are there to make money not to be brash and unprofessional. If the runners are better informed by the info they've compiled before the meet better for them - they'll have a better idea of the risks and opposition involved.

QUOTE
Though, that particular thread aggravates me. I liked Lofwyr, always did. SK was the most powerful corp by some outlooks, and giving him setbacks over and over diminishs that. Lofwyr was never a direct player, but FanPro has taken him as some kind of bad-guy dominator type that it's good to oppose. Now the human corps crawl from the woodworks to oppose him because of who he is.
If Graf Beloise couldn't hold on to her corp, that's her own problem, stop blaming the Wyrm smile.gif

There's more to come. The problem is simply Lofwyr has pissed way too many people off. But independently of that he's been on top of the hill too long in the eyes of his competitors and they'll do anything to take him down a peg, even forge unlikely alliances.

QUOTE
Couple that with the diminished role of the ACTUAL AAA's in Europe besides Lofwyr, and Europe really is it's own little world. Haven't finished everything yet, so maybe I've just missed them, but the homebrew's seem more important than the AAA's.

I can see where you might get that view, although I could point to examples of the the pervasive presence of the other megas in the book but I won't. The voices in the book are indeed biased because they are local.
Skeptical Clown
I don't mind the "anti-Lofwyr group" as long as they lose in the end in a big way. Because the whole point of Lofwyr is that 1) He was the perfect fusion of fantasy and cyberpunk, a corporate dragon and 2) he always wins (or more importantly, always gives the impression of winning). I can see how people would respond "But that's boring, wouldn't it be neat if Lofwyr lost??" The answer is, of course, no. It's like asking if Darth Vader wouldn't be more interesting if we knew his back story (No), if Superman wouldn't be better if he stopped being a good guy and started being a villain (No), and if the Mona Lisa wouldn't be better if you painted her some dreadlocks (No). Changes in the game background are fine, if it's good change, or if it adds to what is already there; destroying a perfectly good piece of scenery just for the sake of shaking things up, however, is wasteful. You take Lofwyr down a few pegs, and really, he's just another dragon. What have you accomplished, other than made him less unique?

That's the kind of change I argue against. Both the unnecessary change of elements that worked, and the dispelling of the game's mystique. Thus, the only acceptable outcome of the Graf Beloise/Spinrad conspiracy is if Lofwyr comes out ahead even better in the long run. That stays true to both his character and his purpose in the game. Otherwise he's just another character trashed by a lame plot, like poor Nadja Daviar.
shadd4d
QUOTE (Paul)
Say how do I pronounce VoceNoctum any ways? Just for my peace of mind.


Something like "Wokay, Noktum". Vaguely Latin, based on endings.

Don
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Synner)
This isn't a problem if your guys have their wits about them.

This phrasing comes up sometimes, but let me say this; My group's not dumb. We prefer a game that is less intricate perhaps, but that doesn't mean we can't play the globe hopping anti-government game. It means we don't want to.

We don't need our wits about us, it's just a diversion from reality.
Sepherim
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Dragons of the Sixth World implies it once you know that Weaver is Spinrad. And I just now got the pun.

Another reason why that fact is implicit has been long ago stated. S-K controls all the telecomunications in Europe (check out the Spanish chapter regarding Sol and Terra). And long ago there were stories about how S-K monitores everything that has been said using their telecom grid.

So, meetings have to take place face-to-face, in case those rumours are true. Specially on sensitive missions.
Skeptical Clown
Face-to-face implies that someone has to meet Shadowrunners face-to-face to hire them, but that's almost universally true anyway. It doesn't imply that Spinrad is going out there himself and hiring runners. That would be kind of stupid, really, since runners have no loyalty to him, and might be scared enough of the dragon's wrath that they'd rat on him. It also kind of ruins the whole idea of plausible deniability.
Thanos007
QUOTE
Yes, exactly so, the game has changed to something other than what it was back then. I never said the change was bad or good, though I prefer the other style. Not that I liked everything of the time frame, but still.
If it's selling better now, than the new direction is a good idea, from a business sense.



Are you sure you prefer the other style? Many of my favorite pices of music are from my teens and early 20's. Along the way I found that some don't age so well and were crap and what was I thinking. I also found that some music I dismissed at the time is rather good. In addition to all that I still find current music I like. Now the question becomes of the music from my teens and 20's that I still like, how much of that is based on my standards of merit and how much on nostalgia?

I grant you that the execution of SR has changed. Governments and Corps are no longer staw men for the runners to knock over. I'll even give you that a lot of the recent books were lacking in "energy". (The last 3 that I read seem to have put paid to that problem.) Having said all that I think, and I may have said this already, that you and Skeptic are romantising 1st and 2nd edition.

I'm curious how old were you when you started playing SR and how old are you now? I may be completely wrong and age has nothing to do with your opinions but I'm still curios as to how old you are. You too Skeptic.

Thanos
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