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Bagpuss
I've only read the UK section so far but you did a good job Peter. The feel of the place was right from my eyes, even if i now live in the Stinkfens biggrin.gif

No on to read the rest of the book
Synner
Thanks, Bagpuss. A significant part of the credit for UK's atmosphere needs to go to Alistair/Beeste though. He nailed Anonymous Botch's English "tone" perfectly and all I had to do was run with it.

I hope people liked the surprises and the twists we added to the original London sb material, especially the P. and the whole counterculture revolution feel.
Dutch-DK
QUOTE (Pistons)
QUOTE (Dutch-DK @ Jul 16 2004, 05:57 AM)
This is the same complaint I can put against any book in SR concerning the American continent. So no surprise you feel the same way. It is not that I have not been in the US, but Americans are just as proud about America as Europeans are about Europe.
So that said we should agree to disagree.

Yes it is unfortunate that the Baltics are not included. Had we gotten the space for it Adhoc could have added more. At least in his games there is some and it could have been build into more.

Psst -- Bull's "review" was a joke on his part. Disregard everything but the last line. wink.gif

Cool enough. I got caught. biggrin.gif
BIG BAD BEESTE
QUOTE (Bagpuss)
The feel of the place was right from my eyes, even if i now live in the Stinkfens biggrin.gif

Well, it could be worse - you could live in London! Admittedly, a LOT was cut out and I originally included deeper descriptions about the sprawls and Toxic / Wild Zones. These had to be condensed into smaller sections due to wordcount limitations.

Oh well. time to press for sticking all the stuff leftover into any old space I can in future sourcebooks.

Thanks for the commentry there Bagpuss - its great to think the feel came over correctly. That's what matters to me as a GM and writer. Now, how to deal with the floating ramshackle blackmarket swamptown of Norwich...
Bagpuss
QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE)
QUOTE (Bagpuss @ Jul 17 2004, 09:55 PM)
The feel of the place was right from my eyes, even if i now live in the Stinkfens biggrin.gif

Well, it could be worse - you could live in London! Admittedly, a LOT was cut out and I originally included deeper descriptions about the sprawls and Toxic / Wild Zones. These had to be condensed into smaller sections due to wordcount limitations.

Oh well. time to press for sticking all the stuff leftover into any old space I can in future sourcebooks.

Thanks for the commentry there Bagpuss - its great to think the feel came over correctly. That's what matters to me as a GM and writer. Now, how to deal with the floating ramshackle blackmarket swamptown of Norwich...

I never knew you visited Norwich smokin.gif

But yeh more stuff on the Wild lands and toxic zones would be cool. Lets hope a great big slice of the cut stuff is put up on the website
Skeptical Clown
Got it today. Haven't finished reading it yet. From what I've seen so far, I like the basic smaller scale descriptions of places, but I'm disappointed in the overall arc of where Europe is heading. And now that I see it, I can see what it was about Shadows of America that I didn't care for either. It's nationalism and regional conflict. It doesn't work for me. Governments and wars are an ill match for Shadowrun. I thought the whole point of the Native American uprisings and the Eurowars was to basically eliminate government as a factor, and warfare as a valid form of conflict. If governments are powerful enough to take action, shadowrunning doesn't really work.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
If governments are powerful enough to take action, shadowrunning doesn't really work.

I don't really agree with that. Russia even now is a weak government with powerful corporations pulling the strings behind the puppets. They have massive violent crime and smuggling; paranoia is rampant and everyone is expected to cheat on their taxes; the environment is falling apart; and thousands of other problems are compounding themselves in the background. Yet they find time to fight wars. The same is true of almost every African nation. Wars, rebellions, corporate powers all increase criminal activities, not the opposite. The nations are just faces for the corporations in SoNA expect Tir and the UCAS; the former is falling apart and the latter is attempting to become a superpower once again... The struggle to succeed against the corporations only leads to more shadowrunners (both as agents fall to the wayside and as operatives of secret agencies).
shadd4d
QUOTE
It's nationalism and regional conflict.


I forget who said those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, but that's the history of Europe from, I daresay, since the Medieval period. I actually like the neo-Feudalistic tone that is arising in Europe, leading to conflict between the old and new powers that be.

Something about the SoE that one has to understand is that it does depict a believable Europe. Having spent lots of time there, I can see where this all comes from and why it's believable.

Governments aren't destroyed in Shadowrun; they are still powers, but to a lesser extent than the Megacorps, although that is still in debate (due to a debate of the word extraterritorial at Fanpro, for instance). Also look at Europe in light of the view that nationality still defines or is the defining characteristic of many people. To name names, look at Cochise (Tut mir leid, wenn ich dich damit beleidige. Habs so nicht gemeint, aber möchte ich nur deine Nationalität zeigen, damit man weiß, dass Nationalität bzw. Staatsangehörigkeit doch noch eine Rolle spielt). The guy is the best rules lawyer I've met, and probably one of the best at fanpro.com. And he's German. Nationalism does still define people, something that isn't over with.

Remember the line in Fields of Fire: Sometimes people want something very bad and compromise is not a fitting solution to whatever the problem might be. That is a validity for war.

Don
Skeptical Clown
I agree that it portrays a believable Europe. I just don't think a believable Europe is necessarily the best Europe for Shadowrun.
Synner
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Jul 21 2004, 11:12 PM)
Haven't finished reading it yet.  From what I've seen so far, I like the basic smaller scale descriptions of places, but I'm disappointed in the overall arc of where Europe is heading.  And now that I see it, I can see what it was about Shadows of America that I didn't care for either.  It's nationalism and regional conflict.

Honestly I don't see where you're getting the regional conflict bit. With the exception of Poland, Europe is pretty peaceful (even compared to North Am), what's more its moving towards greater integration - to the benefit of some. There are numerous culture shocks bubbling under the surface but that's a fact of life in the culturally diverse global village.

If anything Europe is about multi-layered intrigue. Things are not clear cut. There are no strict distinctions between political shadowruns, economic, military or media ones.

Your employer one day might be an Alta Commissione godfather who wants the dirt on an NEEC politician to give the French aristos to keep on their good side in the impending war, and the next Mr Brackhaus might have you working for S-K sabotaging a Red Army depo in Warsaw to win the AW revolutionaries' trust. Everyone is linked to everyone some way. Corps are in bed with governments, governments are in bed with old money aristos, old money aristos are in bed with the Church, the Church is in bed with the Mafia, the mafia is in bed with the corps and so on.

A good example of this is how Saeder-Krupp is addressed in the book. With the exception of the AGS, Austria and Poland, the AAA apparently only gets a passing mention here and there. But if you look at the book carefully you'll find Lofwyr and S-K have their claws in every single chapter and their influence is actually pervasive - it just doesn't always show up in the places you'd traditionally expect for a megacorp.

Political and social intrigue are just as much an element in European runs as underworld interests and corporate manipulation. And to some extent the very status quo of the Sixth World is fueling the fires of nationalism, fascism, kneejerk socialism, environmentalism and utopism that are lacking in current day political ideologies and making the political scene much more vibrant. I don't know about you, but personally I find this extremely fertile terrain for shadowrunning.

Regarding "nationalisms" in Europe especifically, I think you're missing the point entirely. There is a small but immensely meaningful difference between the way Europeans think of "nationality" and "nationalism". We have buckets full of the former but only a fair share of the latter.

Europe is not "a great melting pot", it never has been. People are still fighting and dying for pieces of land that have been in dispute for 900 years! If I travel 1500 kms today from Lisbon in the right direction, I will cross 5 countries, seven distinct language groups and nine ethnic groups. Call the Portuguese Spaniards like one American artist recently did and get booed off stage by 30000 people. For that matter, call the wrong Basque a Spaniard, or Corsican a Frenchman, and you're asking to get punched. This has all to do with "nationality". The same Portuguese who'd knock you over for saying Lisbon is a provincial capital of Spain works hand in hand with the Spanish and owes them 55% of the country's tourism and trade balance. Spanish women are prized and we root for Spanish football teams right after our national ones. That's not to say we're not very different, but there's a type of fraternity and unity amongst us that is almost inexplicable until you realise how much Europe has changed in the past 50 years and what it's seen in the past 1000. We prize our "nationalities" but we also have an underlying belief in a common fraternity which can't be fully explained. Comments like "Old Europe" are laughable to anyone here.

"Nationalism" is also different here. It's a fact of life alright, however unlike what we see in America, it is deeply tied to our cultures and heritage (which date back not decades or a couple of centuries, but in some cases millenia). It has to do with a perception of history which is inherently different. To paraphase someone's quote in the book, "In America a hundred years is a long time, in Europe a hundred miles is a long way."

The nationalisms or cultural shocks described in SoE are actually tamer than those in real life. The reactionary trend people here have described as neo-feudalistic is present but it has more to do with the elites coming to recognize their hold on power has slipped into the hands of others (the megas) and using nationalism as a platform for grasping at power again. This, like other trends, provides the focus of political intrigue and as is suggested in the NEEC section to some extent the governments and the corps believe they stand to gain by cooperating on (apparently) even footing.
Sepherim
And you say that powerful governments don't get along with shadowrunning. Shadowrunning has nothing to do with the contractors, but with two key figures: "deniable assets" and "keeping your hands of the dirt". Governments like both options. Though they might use on times especial forces in their army, those are not deniable (too much time spent in training, money in equipment...) and are easier to track down in case the drek hits the fan. And, obviously, using the military inside the country is a big risk for the enormous problems it can arrise in the public opinion if it becomes known.

So, shadowrruners are as useful to governments as they are to corps, for the same exact reasons.
Crimsondude 2.0
Never really saw the difference between the various players in Europe and anywhere else. [EDIT] By which I mean, I see no difference in that not applying in NorthAm, for instance. Hell, in Seattle alone. There is such a plethora of self-interested entities out there willing to hire runners, and they basically form the entire community. So it's not like I need to be told that you can be running for the Vory one day and the Vatican the next, following by a stint in Lisbon with mercs before a jaunt over to jolly old England for some work with Transys. I can do the same thing in Seattle. With the language and culture problems. Runners are like lawyers--sooner or later, almost everyone need them.[/EDIT]

Europe has always been described as S-K's playground, so it's not surprising except in the lack of overtness

Only punched you say? But by how many of their friends?
Skeptical Clown
The reason governments don't mix with shadowrunning is that governments, even corrupt ones, work in the interest of society. It might not be a compassionate interest in society, but it's an interest. It's in a government's interest to control crime. A government that is functional enough to have policemen, provide welfare, or enforce environmental laws is antithetical to Shadowrun, because in Shadowrun all authority is illegitimate. That's what lets Shadowrunners be heroic (in a very cynical fashion.) If that authority isn't thoroughly and totally corrupt, then the Shadowrunners aren't anarchist antiheroes; they're just plain thugs. That's why in the beginning, governments were rarely detailed. That's why there is no police, other than corrupt private contracters. Because government was unimportant; it was a sham, and while people still worked for government, they weren't just powerless, but shameless shills for corporate interests. It was the corporations who had power, and the corporations are entirely void of any ethicality whatsoever. That's why they are always valid targets for Shadowrunners.

Further, on a practical level, if police are at all competent or present in large numbers, then Shadowrunning becomes pretty darned impractical, on a multitude of levels.

I can see why decisions in this book were made, and I cannot fault their logic, but I don't think they mesh with Shadowrun. I don't think governments are necessary for Europe; they're even less necessary than they are in the Americas, really. Europe has cultures that transcend government; the French would be the French no matter what the state of their rulership. Well, ok, I can fault some logic: I find it difficult to believe that France had enough leverage to work out the kind of deals it has with the megacorporations.

Granted, I haven't finished this book yet. My opinions are based on not merely this book, however, but also other plotlines and books in the recent past. I'll weigh in and see if my criticisms hold for this book as well when I'm done.
Crimsondude 2.0
But for the millions of people who lived in countries that may have had legitimate governments, and don't live in arcologies or self-contained little universes unto themselves, governments are necessary for no other reason than to give them the impression a) that someone is in control, and b) in representative governments, they are that "someone."
Thanos007
QUOTE
Further, on a practical level, if police are at all competent or present in large numbers, then Shadowrunning becomes pretty darned impractical, on a multitude of levels.


Then how do you explain crime in oh, say... New York city. Or Los Angeles. Or Chicago. Or London. Or Paris. Or Moscow. Or... well you get the point.


Thanos
Snow_Fox
Ok I got it today and so far have only read in detail the sections on France, Faeries and part of Italy wink.gif (yay I'm SR immortal!) I really like it. My brain is already burning with ideas to set something up. I like the idea of nobles, apparently recreating history, maybe a king or maybe heading back to the Bastille again. and Belgium being overrun again.

I really love Brittany! I have some relatives I'd like to indroduce to that fog by the way, anyone got a contact number for the druids?

I did notice that Portugal has roughly the same population as all of Scandanavia. hmmm.

for who ever wrote the part on magic in Europe (Tim banned the book from the bed room, it's in my study right now, for what you wrote about Wicca,thank you. very very good on all counts.
Skeptical Clown
Crime in modern New York is stealing a car or knocking over a gas station. Shadowrunners break into highly secure facilities, steal highly sensitive corporate data, often exchange in gunfights, and then escape high-speed through the city streets. You try that in a modern day New York, or Seattle, or Paris, you're going to get caught. End of story. Yet in the vast majority of shadowruns, the runners get away. Why? Because while the targets themselves are often in well-guarded, secured locations, much of the city is a lawless urban wasteland. And even in the place where Lone Star (or whomever) might have a presence, they're corrupt, incompetent, or both.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
I really love Brittany! I have some relatives I'd like to indroduce to that fog by the way, anyone got a contact number for the druids?

Really? I was a bit dissapointed in Brittany.
otaku mike
We got comments on the art, but can anyone tell us what they think of the corps logos?
shadd4d
I like most of them. Pity Proteus isn't there. It's really interesting to see the logos and think about giving some of the AAs a real face. My hat's off to all of you on that count.

Don
Synner
Hi Snow, you're one of the people I'm hoping will review the book, since I know your expectations were high.

France - I hope you liked France and Brittany; Otaku Mike and crew really didn't take to the return to artistocracy or monarchy in the local France sb, but I think their twist on the situation is rather unique and far more believable. Note France isn't the only place where this neo-aristocratic movement is creeping in though...

Portugal - We're only lagging slightly behind the Scands these days and that doesn't count the Black Tide up North and the Great Brazilian Exodus down here...

Italy - If you haven't yet, read Italy carefully, there are a few surprises in there I know you'll appreciate and IMHO a pretty decent treatment of the RCC.

Wicca - Though a lot of editing and rewriting by several people went into it, it was my pleasure. More soon.

shadd4d - There's a post-Shockwaves Proteus one upcoming, I'm not sure if it passed muster but it might be in B:ADL along with a new DeMeKo one.
shadd4d
Cool. I'm already planning on picking up B:ADL on general principle. There is a logo on the last page of Shockwaves as an underlay, but it's rather difficult to make out, as is, unfortunately, the FBV logo (it does exactly what you said, making it difficult to make out).

Don
lorg
QUOTE ("Snow Fox")
I did notice that Portugal has roughly the same population as all of Scandanavia. hmmm.


Ahh them catholics ** hint ** hint ** nudge ** nudge ** biggrin.gif


Today;
Portugal has about 10.5, Sweden is just below 9, Denmark at 5.5, Finland at 5.2 and Norway at 4.5. So currently it would be about 2.5:1 in the scandinavian favour.

Mmm ... perhaps we did a calculation and estimation error here somewhere or perhaps we can chalk it up to alot of immigrants from Amazonia. I also think we mention something about the usual horrors of VITAS and the return of mentioned disease, mmm what else can we blame ... A lot of warm winters so there was less breeding going on.
deeweef
Denmark is the only country with a decline in population in the Union comparing 2063 to today. In addition to the Black Tide, they were also hit very hard by VITAS, killing 20% of the population down there.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
I agree that it portrays a believable Europe.  I just don't think a believable Europe is necessarily the best Europe for Shadowrun.

Interesting point.

Actually, over in the forums of fanpro.com there are many discussion that boil down to the point that many players want more believability.
They demand a world that is believable and logic (not necessarily realistic, with magic and all), that does not revolve around shadowrunners:

Runners are a part of this world. But they do not define it.
If there is a hired security corp instead of a real police force there should be a reason for it, other than "it makes life easier for shadowrunners".
If a city turns into a wasted urban war zone there should be a reason, other than "it's a cool background for runs".

I'm glad to hear that the SoE authors took the "believable" way instead of "kewl".
There were loads of "kewl" ideas when Shadowrun was first created. Some are in fact great, others required some work to iron them out (millions of Amerindians coming from nowhere, cannibalistic restaurants in Berlin...).

I see the game world like a movie set or theatre stage:
Not every prop will be touched by an actor, not every extra will be spoken to or looked at by the heroes of the story, but everything and everyone should have a believable function (or at least pretend to do so).
The set should work even when the heroes are not present - just like the world of Shadowrun should be an interesting and working place if you don't play shadowrunners but something else.

I've always liked how the world of Cyberpunk 2020 is presented:
The urban mercenary/edgerunner campaign is suggested but there is plenty of possibilities for other campaigns.
IMHO Shadowrun is too much focused on shadowrunners. While sourcebooks are interesting to read and the concept of shadowland documents is nice everything is presented from a runner point of view, focused on their interests and opinions.
It does not provide much information beyond that.

It took 14 years until there was a book giving some details about everyday life!
But long before that we had a gazillion guns, knew about global conspiracies and immortal elves, used cyberware so expensive and weird you have to ask where the market for that stuff is and could buy an aircraft carrier if we wanted...

Zen Shooter01
Regionalism and nationalism are big issues because they provide an excuse for shadowruns. For example, this would not have worked out very well as a chapter:

Everyone appreciates everyone else here on a deeply human level, and no one wants what anyone else has.

Besides, you need nationalist issues because if you'd just stuck to the old megacorporate rivalries it wouldn't have been anything new.

Actually, the Europe of SOE reminds me of real-world Europe from 1918 to 1939. You know...half time.

Now that I've read the book more closely, I'm irritated by it's vagueness. I couldn't find any actual dates for the Jihad in the overview. I think that, while a list of Vatican orders would have been too space-consuming, the lack of a simple heirarchy chart is a serious lapse. The Pope is the big boss, the cardinals are his cabinet, archbishops, then bishops, etc. It's odd that that was left out while the NEEC's organization is gone over in superfine detail.

Also, the United Nations still exists, but we can't even get a list of security council members, or even veto members. What good is knowing that there is a United Nations if I don't know who's on it and what it does?
Zen Shooter01
Oh, I'm excited to hear that an Arab world book is being considered. I look forward to that.
Skeptical Clown
In my opinion, drifiting from a focus on shadowrunners is emblematic of everything that's wrong with Shadowrun today. The game is ABOUT Shadowrunners. There might be Big Things going on in the world, but the Shadowrunners are just a small part of it, and those Big Events are just background noise to them, just like they are to most people in the world. I don't care about the personal goals of megacorporate CEOs. What does that have to do with me as a player? What does it have to do with my players when I'm GM? Absolutely nothing. Sure, there are big players that have an effect on the campaign, but they're in the background. My players are never going to meet the local mayor, let alone Damien Knight or Lofwyr. So why do I need entire chapters, entire BOOKS, devoted to information that's really never going to be more than a footnote to my games?

The more I read Shadows of Europe, the more I'm disheartened by the lack of anything that really has to do with shadowrunners. Sure, there's lots of 'stuff' in there that could be used as adventure springboards... some of it interesting. But do I really need a thirty dollar book full of snippets of vague ideas? If I did, I'd much rather have Blood in the Boardroom, which cut to the chase and gave real adventure seeds.

I guess that's why I look forward to D&D books these days, far more than Shadowrun books. It didn't used to be that way. But every D&D book, even the mediocre ones, have at least something that's of practical use to me. They're formulaic, but they get the job done.

Oh, and another thing occurs to me as I read SoE... "History repeats itself, first as Tragedy, then as Farce."
Dax
To be honest, I completely agree with Synner and MYSTIC on this issue. Yes, Shadowrunners exist. Yes they are used by the corps to make their lives easier. But, the SINless population is outnumbered by the SIN posessing population by a very large margin.

The fact is that the Shadowrun world will continue to go on and do what it does with or without Runners. The combined governments of the world should exist. Its been established in cannon that the Corps like having governments exist. It keeps them from having to deal with all the breurocratic BS that they would have to convern themselves with if the governments either didn't exist, or were to weak to accomplish anything.

I, for one, want a more realistic world. What I've always liked about Shadowrun is the fact that its one of the most detailed and complex settings I've delt with in my RPG experiance. The more realisitc the game is, the more I can get into it.

So, lets all enjoy the fact that the governments are around. They are just one more possible client for the Shadowy types.
Skeptical Clown
But Shadowrun WOULDN'T exist without the shadowrunners and dregs of society. That's why it's called Shadowrun.

Anyway, I've read a lot more. Like Shadows of America, it's disappointingly a book that won't leave my shelf much. It's been an interesting read, but ultimately, it's useless for consulting if I need detailed information about a location.
Dax
To be honest Skep, I think your missing the point of these recent books. They're more like

"Here's whats happeneing in the real world. Here are how they tie into the shadows and dregs of society. (At least in a minor way.) The rest is up to you."

They aren't concerned with giving the extreme focused view of what runners are like anymore. We've had plenty of books that have done just that over the years, and I belive that the point has been rather well established.

So, lets get the rest of the world fleshed out. Fill in all those gaps that have been in the world for years. I for one think that its about time stuff like this has been done. But that is just my opinion.
Skeptical Clown
I thought it was obvious I did understand it, and disagreed with it entirely.
Thanos007
QUOTE
And even in the place where Lone Star (or whomever) might have a presence, they're corrupt, incompetent, or both.


QUOTE
if police are at all competent or present in large numbers


Incompetent or corrupt there are a lot of them.

Thanos
Snow_Fox
I'm joining in with Dax and Synner. The SB shows us the world, who the mover and shakers are. It's up to the GM to sort out what runners are going to do.

In France you've got various noble houses (ok I wish there had been something on the wine industry, but I won't whine.) In Italy you've got city states vs church and then further divide up the church with waring, secretly, factions.
The irish situation with anti-elven groups who don't get on with each other etc. All of which give much more room for role playing than just corp vs corp.

and yes I like the part on Brittany. Ethnically it is Celtic, not Frankish so there is something good about it being set aside. Now about the family I'd like to drop in the mist....(Dad was from Brittany, mom swears that's where I get my stubborn streak from.)
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (M¥$T1C @ Jul 22 2004, 06:22 PM)
It took 14 years until there was a book giving some details about everyday life!

Shadowbeat covered the media--which is a significantly pervasive presence on everyday life, and it was released in 1990-91.

I have to agree with Skeptical Clown here. Just so I don't have to retype what I already said.
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
See, I never really considered the governments that broken down, because there are still large parts of the U.S. (for example) which are crappy in a way inner cities aren't. That exurban, detached way that makes life just so much sadder. However, it's really not even been discussed IRL until the housing boom of the 90s, and it's very different from the impression of built-up urbanism in my reading of other cyberpunk. It's more like Snow Crash than Blade Runner that way, IRL and in my interpretation of the game.

But I was also thinking that the world was darker in a way years ago because, frankly, we didn't know as much (IRL or IC) about the world. I blame Shadowbeat for actually explaining the world. Sure we get info that bloodsports are standard cable fare, but also it kills a lot of the mystery when we got rules on rockers and a listing of the type of canon trid fare. I did kind of prefer the idea of someone mentioning Neil the Ork Barbarian and leaving you to think, "What the hell kind of show is that?" Basically, it's allowed for a less creative GM in the name of expansion.

I think that's one of the things that bugs me about CD and SoNA (and SoE when I get it), is that characters discuss major events with intimate familiarity like the state of the nations, which is especially amusing in light of the fact that I know most people disucssing government and politics are talking about it straight out of their puckerholes, and even the people paid to talk about it are usually full of crap.  And it makes the whole enterprise look especially amusing when you reduce nations to 14-page spreads. The only utility is in knowing that in 14 pages you still get a lot of room to keep the mystery, and especially if you consider the (shadow)author to be, well, not completely informed. Which is how I have kept myself from hunting down Szeto for writing the PCC chapter of SoNA (well, actually for wasting my time reading and correcting it).

But it'd be very hard to keep it as mysterious as it was in SR1 after 15 years unless you just stop producing material like R. Tal did with CP2020. You just have to look harder for the dark edges, and then keep walking.
Prospero
Crimsondude 2.0: Sounds like what you need is a big book of rules with no title and a couple of vague refrences to what the rules are actually governing. Sort of nihilist rping. I mean, if you don't want to know what the world is about, why buy any of the setting books (as opposed to the rule books, which have little to no setting)? Don't people buy setting books for the setting that someone has sat down and thought out over many hours so that you and I, who might not have so much time to do just that, can benefit? And the beauty of having that info in an IC document is that it can be true or false, a deliberate smoke-screen or a pure lie, and there can be more that is totally omitted. And it all works.

For me, M¥$T1C hit it on the head - the SR world should be like a movie set in motion: even if the characters never interact with any given part of it, that part should have its own life. The set should work even if the characters aren't there, as I think he said. Because that adds to the life of that parts which the runners do interact with. Maybe your runners will never, ever make it to the UK. But having a UK in the Shadowrun world to draw background from is really valuable. Everything outside of Seattle didn't just drop off the map and even if your characters never go there, it might influence them where they are. And even if it doesn't, it's there and can be brought in even just as flavor - a contact from there, or a PC who spent summers there in his childhood, whatever.

Now I do, personally, generally dislike uber-power runs. I agree with Skeptical Clown on that. I don't want my character to deal with dragons directly (well, with perhaps a few exceptions), I don't want him to meet Villiers or Daviar or anybody like that. But every run has - or can have - a million whys and wherefores behind it. And the world is the source of that info. All this info about the power players drips down into the shadows pretty quick. I think its incredibly usefull and makes for the most colorful, interesting gaming out there.

Just to get back on topic: I'm getting my copy tomorrow but I got to page through one in a store today. I really loved the maps. Even though there doesn't seem to be (judging from other posts here) a lot of info on lots of Eastern Europe and the remains of the Jyhad, even just having a map that included the boundaries of the contested areas and gives a good, graphic overview of Europe is usefull. In the past, I've generally taken real-world maps and said something like, "Well, in SR, the boundary is about here or so, I think" to my players. Other thoughts after I devour the book over the weekend.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
Shadowbeat covered the media--which is a significantly pervasive presence on everyday life, and it was released in 1990-91.

You're right.
Shadowbeat presented media, music and sports - a few facets of life. Some others (travelling, what is a coffin hotel like) were in Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life.
Both have been OOP for how many years?

This info was combined and vastly expanded in Sprawl Survival Guide.

I personally like my games (be it Shadowrun or any other system) to be as close to canon as possible. For that I want as much information as possible!
How should I believably play a character iteracting with his suroundings when I have no (or just very vague) idea how that world is like?
After breaking through the apartment door of Joe Public I could slice him with my cyberspurs or blast him with several dozen different guns - but how does his apartement look like? What can I find there?
How does a person live and what is the world like if you look beyond the shadows?

What does my character do between runs? How should I play him going shopping during the day when all info the books give me are about breaking into corporate facilities at night?
I want to play my charatcer not just as a runner but as a person. For that I need a world that makes sense to interact with.

Some groups and GMs like to make their own world description. They don't want everything laid out as that makes integrating own ideas problematic (a hot topic with FanPro's The Dark Eye). There is nothing wrong with that - role-playing is about creativity.
But others who want to diverge from canon as minimal as possible or who are just lazy to produce own ideas might want more information.
They want a game world as detailed as possible. When I read a location book I want information about how that place works not just how it is to be a shadowrunner there.
Guess I'm an info junkie...

Mysteries are another thing. It's nice to leave questions and riddles for the players.
But as a GM I want to know the answers!
I don't like having to make an own solution only to have it smashed by the official one several books and years later, possibly ruining my campaign (as I want to stick to canon but suddenly canon is way different).

Both ways of playing are perfectly valid. But while the first is not hampered by a multitude of information (ignore what you don't like or need) the second one gets problematic when there is not enough info.
I don't like having to retcon things...
BIG BAD BEESTE
OK, several valid points from different perspectives here. It is possible to centre a game upon the runners and only involve their immediate vicinity and make it dark and urban chaos/megacorp uber-power themed. In fact you don't even need to cover things beyond the vague Barrens descriptions and prowling gangs. Personally this is more a Cyberpunk setting and how I see R.Å. Talisorian's Night City. It could be any future city, anywhere in the world and even on any planet of that technological background. The city is the scene and nothing outside it is required. Ideal for in depth short campaigns.

However, Shadowrun is specifically set on this planet and therefore must be influenced by this planets societies and history. The whole concept of the Sixth World encompasses every old legend and nation's folklore into something that is relevant with magic's return. Society is global and that globe is getting smaller due to increasing technological advances.

Overall though, the point behind sourcebooks such as SoNA and SoE is to cover the background of those locations. The importance is to bring across the atmosphere of that locale: its surroundings, its culture, its day-to-day lifestyle. That is where it becomes relevant to shadowrunners. Different places have different rules and different laws, not just official ones, but the everyday things you take for granted. Those little differences are what matter, what make the game world more realistic to play in, and what Gamemasters need to bring their games to life. Metaplots and rules are important, but secondary to having an environment to actually have your characters play in.

Hopefully, that's what we have accomplished here in SoE - a book that brings over the atmosphere of the locations, the essential things anyone (runner or offical citizen) will see, hear, smell, touch, taste and experience in that place. After that its up to the GM to create scenarios to occupy the players. Maybe they'll even use some of our ideas too. smile.gif
MYST1C
QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE)
Metaplots and rules are important, but secondary to having an environment to actually have your characters play in.

Very well said!
Skeptical Clown
See, here's the thing: The world DOESN'T keep going if the players aren't there. Giving the illusion that it does is one thing, but ultimately, Shadowrun isn't about the things Lofwyr is doing. It's about what the players are doing. Shadowrun is a game, first and foremost. I just hate seeing Shadowrun delve into the kind of anti-player territory that the bloated Forgotten Realms treads in.

Also, it's not true that early Shadowrun ignored day-to-day life. Forget Shadowbeat; the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life was printed ages before Sprawl Survival Guide, and did a better job. The original Seattle Sourcebook is still one of the best resources for the game, because it gives so much information about things the Shadowrunners might actually be involved with; bars, nightclubs, facilities, restaurants, and gangs. New Seattle in its own way provides a good deal of information too. And even later sourcebooks that lost some of that detail, like California Free State, still understands the essence of societal decay that's critical to shadowrunning. Even in Denver, it seemed basically understood that the flunkies in control of the government had no real authority or legitimacy. They were completely arbitrary, struggling to maintain an aura of importance in the face of impotence.

I think a lot of people forget: Shadowrun isn't our future. It's a worst-case scenario that diverged from our track of history FIFTEEN YEARS ago.
Pistons
When the game was created, it was both a worst-case scenario and our future. A possible one, that is. It resonated so much with gamers then because of that -- it was relevant, it just might happen. For those of us belonging to the generation that grew up with the threat of nuclear war, that's actually a slightly rosier picture and preferable to landscapes of mutation and scrabbling for cups of untainted water.

The new generation (gamers or not) sees things differently. That scenario is no longer quite so viable as even a worst-case scenario. In fact, there's a different sort of worst-case scenario out there. It still has some similarities with the cyberpunk sort of future, but it's no longer just cyber -- it's bioware, it's sentient robots, it's an out-of-control AI, it's governments and corporations that run roughshod over its customers and citizenry in the name of the all-mighty dollar and so much more. Compare the popular science fiction flicks then with now -- there's your yardstick to discover the current crop of future-fear.

Because Shadowrun is a dynamic world, sticking solely with the old themes makes no sense when it comes to putting out new books. Fifteen years and no advances in technology? No changes in even the local government or corporations? I don't know of any place like that. Even if your characters aren't supposed to care about those things, they happen regardless and can affect what goes on in the street.

For people to buy the new books, there needs to be something in there they can relate to on some level. There are some advances in tech NOW, in reality, that are just making their way into the SR books... tech that could have, in the SR timeline, been developed before but the documentation was lost in the Matrix Crash of '29. People can look at that and say, "Hey, I remember reading about this stuff. How can I use it in a game?"

There's also the fact that for Shadowrun to remain viable in the market, it's necessary to put out new books. It's the reality of the gaming market. If we put out nothing but the same things over and over again, the game would be dead in the water. Sure it would appeal to some core fans, but that's never enough to keep a game alive in the market.

I'm sorry that the current crop of books disappoints you, Skeptical Clown. I think it's become clear, however, that they're not aimed toward you and your style of game. I don't think this is a bad thing, as there's plenty of the older sourcebooks for you to play from and be perfectly happy with. This is not to say that we don't try to keep some of the nostalgia going with what we write now and appeal to gamers like you; just that apparently it's missed the mark for you. Other gamers, however, seem happy with it and would like to see more, and it's for them and their games that we continue to write and put these books out.
JongWK
Skep, many gamers want to run games in their countries, and a "Shadows of..." gives them enough background to run them. I, for one, don't regret that FanPro seems to be planning to cover the entire globe.

I also don't want a unidimensional game like Cyberpunk 2020, where all we know about South America is that the continent is ruled by a bunch of petty dictators. Hell, even the lone SouthAm run idea included in a CP2020 book was pathetic.
Skeptical Clown
It has nothing to do with covering the globe. I'm all for globe-trotting. It's the themes and the direction. There's really not much separating Shadowrun thematically from say, the D20 modern setting.

It is pretty disappointing. I own nearly every SR product, and it's pretty frustrating seeing the game go in some completely different direction. Like I said though, more money for D&D books I guess.
shadd4d
Would you mind expanding on that statement. Thematically, I don't see the connection. Never played or read d20 modern, so I really don't understand your statement.

Personally, I like the new books,and yes I do have quite a few of the old ones. The point is what BBB said:
QUOTE (M¥$T1C)

QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE)
Metaplots and rules are important, but secondary to having an environment to actually have your characters play in.


I like the new direction in giving plot seeds. To be honest, the new DidSII is an example of the old direction and well, it's 300+ pages dealing with just 1 country. Something that keeps Shadowrun going, in my mind, is the introduction of a metaplot and this sort of story. Shadowrun is probably one of the more interesting games in that the plot progresses, i.e. the world progresses and lives. The way Shadowrun now mirrors our world and its present is something that can actually make the game more enjoyable.

OTOH, everything were are discussing here comes down to taste. YMMV, so to speak.

Don
Adhoc
If you don't like it, don't use it. Remember: it's your game.

wavey.gif
Adhoc
Skeptical Clown
That's not an acceptable answer at all. As a consumer of Shadowrun goods, I'm perfectly within my rights to bitch about them if I think the quality is poor. And in fact, I sort of consider it a responsibility. I could just stop purchasing them, but until recently I hadn't realized how far Shadowrun had drifted, and I still felt like supporting the (and the few local stores that still carried them; the number has dwindled over the years.)

As for the d20 modern comment, it means what it sounds like. D20 Modern, when used with Urban Arcana is basically the "real world," but with magic and elves and dragons and stuff. Basically, dungeons and dragons in a more or less modern setting, with modern being flexible enough to cover the entire modern and near-future age. My point: Shadowrun doesn't really have any discernable theme to distinguish itself from any other quasi-modern fantasy. At least, not anymore.
tjn
Fears of the future Skep. It's one of the major themes of Cyberpunk, but however Cyberpunk is based in the 80's with 80's fears.

It's now 2004, with different fears and different issues pushed to the forefront. In order for Shadowrun to not stagnate into oblivion it needs to adapt these fears to the common age. Things like Nanotech and Globalization.

If this doesn't float your boat, that's fine, it doesn't have to.

But calling it poor for evolving and staying current is a bit out of line IMO.
Pistons
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
That's not an acceptable answer at all. As a consumer of Shadowrun goods, I'm perfectly within my rights to bitch about them if I think the quality is poor. And in fact, I sort of consider it a responsibility.

(snip)

My point: Shadowrun doesn't really have any discernable theme to distinguish itself from any other quasi-modern fantasy. At least, not anymore.

I do agree on the point that you are perfectly within your right to complain. People are indeed listening to what you have to say. Thing is, it would appear that others don't agree with you, and it really does come down to taste (even regarding the theme issue). What you don't like, other people do like. Should the majority of people (potential buyers included) feel the same way as you, naturally book production would head in that direction.

I do think it's possible to play a game and support it in general without buying all the new books; one can buy just what you want to, take what you need from it and leave the rest be, or just play with what you have and try to get others to play with you. I think it's a good sign that some folks are willing to buy books they don't need in order to support the game, but personally I wouldn't want someone to do that and be unhappy with his purchase.

Play the game as you like it. Create the material that you'd like to see, or encourage folks with similar views as you to create that material if they have that sort of time and energy. If you don't like things as they are, by all means say so... but be prepared to understand that you may not be in the majority, and may need to take things in the direction you want to see when it conflicts with what's being produced.
Skeptical Clown
Hey, I'm not deluded into think I'm going to convert anyone. I am curious though, if message boards are the primary measure of what fans want, and if they accurately represent the majority of people who play Shadowrun. The question is probably moot, however.

I don't think my arguments are "out of line" though, and I'm not sure how they could be construed to be. I'm not just arguing that I don't like the change of focus (which I don't.) I'm also arguing that it's an illogical in-game progression, affected by the external preferences of writers or players.
Thanos007
QUOTE
It's nationalism and regional conflict. It doesn't work for me. Governments and wars are an ill match for Shadowrun. I thought the whole point of the Native American uprisings and the Eurowars was to basically eliminate government as a factor, and warfare as a valid form of conflict. If governments are powerful enough to take action, shadowrunning doesn't really work.


NAN didn't eliminate gov't. It created a whole bunch that were in a better place to work against corporate interests then what remained of the old US and Canada. Of course it didn't last long but now the corps have to spread their assets thinner to keep more people happy. Corp power only worked in the beginning by keeping corrupt officials happy with their pice of the pie. Eliminate that pice of pie and corp power goes out the window. Now they have extraterritorality, standing armys (small but they are their) and a few if all have nukes as well as magical assets. Not to mention the corporate court.

QUOTE
The reason governments don't mix with shadowrunning is that governments, even corrupt ones, work in the interest of society. It might not be a compassionate interest in society, but it's an interest. It's in a government's interest to control crime. A government that is functional enough to have policemen, provide welfare, or enforce environmental laws is antithetical to Shadowrun, because in Shadowrun all authority is illegitimate. That's what lets Shadowrunners be heroic (in a very cynical fashion.) If that authority isn't thoroughly and totally corrupt, then the Shadowrunners aren't anarchist antiheroes; they're just plain thugs.


Gov't minimal purpose is to maintain order. That's it. Eliminate chaos. Not make people happy. There are many examples of gov't that do not work in the interests of society. Watch the news sometime.


QUOTE
That's why in the beginning, governments were rarely detailed. That's why there is no police, other than corrupt private contracters. Because government was unimportant; it was a sham, and while people still worked for government, they weren't just powerless, but shameless shills for corporate interests. It was the corporations who had power, and the corporations are entirely void of any ethicality whatsoever. That's why they are always valid targets for Shadowrunners.



No. In the beginning gov't wasn't detailed because there wasn't room in the main book for all the details. Hence source books. They were portrayed as corrupt and in the pocket of the corps but I don't recall reading anything saying they were powerless.

If we take your arguments I see a bunch of city states across the world ruled by corps. Or large areas controlled by one corp. Almost a D&D world only with modern tech. Right? There's no gov't so the corps can do what they want and screw anyone who gets in their way. Corps rely on gov't to keep things in check. Because if they aren't then no one has any money to buy products and corps don't make any money. If things are going into the crapper then people (mistakenly) hold on to their money. I've got better things to spend my money on then the newest phone or trid. degenerate into compleat feudal way of life with the serfs serving a local corp. Yeah D&D all right.

Thanos
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