Oh, it's influence. But it's influence that I've earned; it's not like I picked up the phone one day, said "Hi, Mike Mulvihill? Yeah, you should do a bunch of stuff that I like." and he said "Sure! I'll get right on that, Mr. Jury."

Because - no offense, because you said it first - you're a boob posting on a web board. You want to influence Shadowrun? Do something to influence it. Somebody has to influence the damned thing!

It does boil down to: FanPro can't please everyone all the time. The game has changed, so has the game industry. Is it unfortunate that Shadowrun isn't appealing to some people anymore? Totally. Are those changes helping the game appeal to other people? I tend to think so.

Influence by being on the ground floor when FanPro took over, sure. But the point was that the influence of dumpshock is not in line with the SR we like. I was a member of ShadowRN list, I've been here for a long while, and I remember many times in the IRC channel. Your idea of Shadowrun was never the same as the books, and now the books are changing to match your pattern.

Change for the sake of change means nothing. Change to appeal to OTHER people, rather than MORE people, seems to be what the problem I have with FanPro's SR is.

Shadowrun sales are consistently strong in a very weak RPG industry. Many - if not most FanPro releases have sold out one print run in a relatively short period of time and some of the core books [SR3, some of the rulebooks, New Seattle] have been through multiple printings from FanPro.

Is it reaching the number of people that it was in the early-mid 90s? Probably not - but very few RPGs are, currently.

And with that, I'm done with this thread. I have some massive influence to exert, or something.

What I'm wondering is, does each new book outsell the previous book? Since FanPro took over I mean, as the gap between last FASA book and first FanPro book was different.

Is the quality of the product drawing more people in? people that thought SR was dead when FASA faded?

As I said, each new book brought less and less copies to the local game shops, and now there are none. In my area at least, the trend doesn't seem to be for the new direction.

If SR's feel is so outdated, perhaps it's time to pull the plug, and redo the basis of Shadowrun as a different game. Call it something different, or even SHadowrun: Whatever.

Thanks.

Why?

You've got a problem with where the game's headed, I don't. We could probably poll the dumpshockers, but the thing is, odds are that if the game stops selling something's going to change. Until you see that change, it's a pretty good guess that things are going at least passably.

~J

Adam's answer should be clear enough, but in case it isn't. I have it on good authority (ie. Rob Boyle) that after FanPro hit its stride all the books coming out have sold well above the current industry average (disregarding like WotC and WW but counting SJG and other mid-sized companies) and more importantly are selling better than they were at FASA when it closed (and back then Shadowrun was apparently the line consistently making money). Furthermore Shadowrun sales have been consistently good under FanPro despite the market slump in RPGs in general, and in fact, sales have both increased in volume and speed of sellthru in corebooks (including recent stuff like SSG) with regards to the tail end of FASA years.

Does this mean all books sell equally well or that each book beats the preceeding ones sales? Of course not, but that's a given, they don't target the same "consumer". SSG is tailored for a much wider audience than say Survival of the Fittest (campaign=GMs) and adventures/campaigns these days are selling badly across the market. That said DotSW and SoNA have exceptionally well and I'm hoping SoE is doing the same (a store like Leisure Games in the UK had 100 standing orders for it, FanPro D's official store had much much more).

And while you might not be finding the game at your Friendly Local Game Store, the same could be said for just about every other non-D20 line these days, and it is highly telling that Shadowrun remains in such high demand despite the reduced presence in physical stores.

However, even that absence is being countered with a big push in terms of distribution and a release schedule back to regular releases. The issue is whether the stores will bet on a non-D20 line rather than is it available to them.

If that isn't clear enough try this. Comparing to the size of the RPG market in its early-mid Nineties heyday, SR today is selling to proportionately about the same number of people which in itself is a success since industry sales have dropped about 50% proportionately.*

Just for reference RPG sales are down 40% to 50% across the board with regards to mid-90's figures (sort of like what's happening in comics), Adam's comments on Shadowrun's continued popularity should be seen in this light and there should be no doubt SR is one of the industry's sleeper success stories (which should be obvious when you have such a vibrant online community).

To underline another aspect of the change in the market which you are obviously overlooking - online sales in the RPG industry now represent something like 60% of total sales for most non-D20 games because of the D20 glut in stores - this as compared to something like 15% in the late 90s. Stiggybaby's, for instance, have underlined their support for Shadowrun on numerous ocassions - here on Dumpshock too - and have gone out of their way to say they're extremely happy with the success of the line.

I'd also like to back Adam's statement that influence is what you make of it. Until about a year ago I was just another boob who posted on a board. Two days ago I wrapped my fifth official book as an author and you would probably say I have some influence over the direction SR is taking (although I'd be forced to disagree with you). But all I can say is that if you don't like it push for something else, submit (heck, it worked for Tzeentch, the EuroSBers, JongKW, and myself), start an email campaign, get a petition going, mail Rob, whatever... In fact I submitted for DotSW in the first place because I thought the book looked to me like a mistake waiting to happen (my reaction to hearing about it was: What a whole book just on Dragons?! No. No No! It's going to be high-magic and uberplots! Argg!). Turns out I was dead wrong.

If on the other hand, you don't think Shadowrun is worth it, then why the heck do you bother posting here in the first place?

That's the whole point, SR's feel is not outdated because the feel has evolved as the game has developed. You may not like the way it has evolved - but that's your personal opinion and you're entitled to it - but it has evolved. Then again, I don't agree with you on what you believe is "the feel of Shadowrun" in the first place.

Kagetenshi has made a very valid point and if you look around this board, you'll find you are in the vast minority (go on, post a Poll asking if people think Shadowrun needs its plug pulled because its dead). Though admittedly skewed as an example, I suggest you check around this board and see how many newbs to SR have been posting in the last year or so, and better yet how many old-timers are coming back (by my count two posted this week alone).

* For reference my (vague) figures are from information provided by friends and contacts who work in stores and RPG companies in America and Europe. Admittedly I'm lacking the distributor angle.

Amen to that. If you want to influence or add something to the game you love, submit. The worst thing that can happen to you is getting accepted.

Cheers,
JongWK

PS: Dammit Synner, I cut down my name to a few letters and you still spell it wrong?

For the record, Adam didn't answer. A "print run" means nothing without numbers. I don't really expect exact numbers of books in an SR print run, but refering to them as sold through has no value, if you understand my position.

I know SR was the biggest seller of FASA at the time, and the slump in SR really started before FASA closed. As I mentioned in the spawned thread, getting all the rule books for SR took so long, and the annual autumn/ winter slump was horrible, sometimes it seemed FASA was trying to kill their main line.

As a point of comparison, anyway to compare the last year that SR matched the current numbers? (i.e. "last time the numbers were close was 00")

The problem is, they do have a lot of non-D20 stuff at two of them. In fact, I think the d20 Glut has kind of pushed things back towards getting non-d20 stuff for some folks.

Just to be clear, you're saying that back in say, 95, SR had 3% of the market (don't recall exact numbers obviously and that now, in 04, SR still has around 3% of the reduced market?

I'm sure Stiggybaby's is a good supporter of SR, and I'd say they probably get a huge portion of the online sales, simply because they actually HAVE them. I've recommended them many times (for SR and other RPG stuff) and their service is great.

Again though, because I'm not involved with the game now, doesn't mean I wasn't on some level before.

Other than you being exceptionally verbose, I'm not really familiar with you I don't mean that everyone on Dumpshock is somehow a mover and shaker. I'm not sure of the exact membership of this site, but I'm sure there's quite a few more than the list of authors in SoE. Now, it's possible that all you authors just have 30 names each, and post to each other for fun, but I'm willing to discard that idea.
I'm saying that Dumpshock, like most online forums, isn't really representative of the actual customers, but does have more influence than the average customer. Also, the "Clique" has more influence than even that, simply because Dumpshock is seen as important to SR.

Evolved into something totally different. IMO.

But, I'd be interested in what you think the Feel of SR should be. Specifically, the ability of the runners themselves.

I'd also be interested if there's any way to find out, what the percentage of US vs Euro's is, compared to The Early Years.

(edit) one last thing, if FanPro is selling through print runs so quick, they should really have larger print runs. Depending on where the price break is of course.

Against my better judgement, I'll clarify, then. To the best of my knowledge, Shadowrun [and Classic BattleTech] print runs are typically larger than the average print runs that most RPG companies are making at this time.

I do not know how they relate to FASA's print runs, but the industry has changed so much in the last five years alone that such comparisons are not particularly useful anyway, IMO.

For reference, the typical D20 Small publisher has said on ENWorld that an initial run of 1-2K is normal, if there's a followup, it's usually 500-1,000. IIRC.

And, I was curious for the numbers as compared to earlier years, I didn't bring it into the discussion, but was referencing mainly FanPro's numbers.

Side topic: how is CBT doing nowadays anyway? Got no real life gamers to fight, so haven't gotten any.

You won't be getting print numbers simply because that's something FanPro plays close to its chest and exactly the sort of thing Non-Disclosure Agreements cover.

However, I'll give you some figures I dug up from retailers, mostly by asking around (a vested interest in a book will do that to you), if it's any help in comparing to the figures you've got:
Like I've said above for SoE, a mid-sized games shop in London (Leisure Games) had close to 100 preorders, F-Shop had over 300 preorders (might have been more if FanPro D hadn't warned the German version would be out in less than a month), and then there were also the Origins sales, Stiggybaby, etc - how does a sellthru of 500 units in the first week sound with regards to your figures? (Admittedly the figures for SoE are skewed because of the long wait, but then again there was no doubt as to the type of book or format it was going to have just the exact contents, so people knew what they were getting.)

Also a couple of months ago the German F-Shop Newsletter announced that the English-language SSG had sold (exclusively through them) more than 400 units and the German version was looking to beat that in the first couple of weeks.

Also regarding printing runs I'd like to reiterate the obvious: print run figures don't mean much when comparing different books in a line, because different books appeal to different parts of the fan market. It's completely useless to compare sales (or print runs) of books like Threats 2, SotF, SoE and even Rigger 3 Revised with SOTA63 or SSG because they have a much vaster target audience and can almost be considered corebooks. The former would naturally have smaller printruns at release but that doesn't mean they don't end up selling just as well or that a book might not bomb.

Regardless, as a gaming company trying to survive in today's market you can bet that if FanPro is pursueing a certain course these days (even if its one that you don't like) its because it is seeing results. Nobody can afford to flog a dead horse and throw good money after bad these days. If FanPro hasn't done an about-face in the 4 years it has had the line, then it's because the powers-that-be have seen positive results to the current strategy and format.

Note- that the first few releases were half done under the auspices of FASA and Rob Boyle made it clear soon after that his approach would be to bring things back to the streets - if those streets are the same as yours is a different matter entirely.

I for one believe DotSW would have been a very different book under FASA, as it turned out its one of my favorite books and IMHO it provides material for all levels of play and gaming styles.

Domino - Thanks for the praise.

I'm not sure what you mean "new book was SSG", wasn't YotC pretty early in FanPro? If your only sales were FASA's core's, then I'm not sure that helps, but not sure if I'm just misunderstanding. Did the store not stock SR until your renewed interest?

I kept abreast of matters pretty well via internet, so I knew that someone had it, and waiting and watching was pretty nerve wracking. Then new books were ready, printing, shipping... and still I couldn't find them. There is nothing so frustrating as KNOWING a book is shipping, and not being able to get it. I have the same problem with Chaosium some times too.

My point is strictly in regard to the direction SR has "evolved" into. That's why it came up in this thread. I'm saying that a lot of SR folks I know are dropping the game now, after sticking out the slump from FASA to FanPro, and slow printing. They look at SoE, and have decided the game isn't the same as the game they loved. Some of the folks did indeed worry about the "new direction" as early as before SR3 released, but now the end is clearly marked.

So, in that regard I wondered:
1) how each new SR is doing compared to the last books (i.e. are more and more people coming to the game, or coming back to the game, or is it a pretty steady membership)
2) how this compares to FASA's final years (have folks given up on the game and not returned)
3) If the game has shifted percentage wise to more Euro's vs USer's. (Perhaps the feel is more European, and any loss in US guys looking for their cyberpunk with elves will more than be filled by EU fellows that like detailed histories and governments that stifle shadowrunners and ruin the game...

I'm willing to admit that the new approach may bring more people in vs the old approach retaining some of us, but I wonder about the numbers. I understand that exact numbers won't be released, but I'd like direct answers when I ask direct questions. I don't feel I've been hostile in any fashion, so I keep going as long as the discussion does.

I started at Cap's in Jan 2003. Around August of that year I started up a new SR campaign. The store only had a copy of Cyber Pirates and two copies of the Germany source book. In Aug. I brought in the BBB, Brain Scan (by way of request), New Seattle, and one other that I can't remember. As the reprints came up I got those along with SSG and DotSW. In Jan of 2004 I had all the core rule books, SSG, DotSW, New Seattle, along with the German sb. I took Cyber Pirates for myself.

[EDIT] Maybe not MM.

My story directly refutes that. These were guys who played back in the day. They were coming back. So now we have two examples that cancel each other. How many of them dropping the game are dropping it because they don't like the current direction and how many fall into the general downward sales trend of RPGs? I know people who were wild about D&D 3.0 and 3.5 but dropped them because they couldn't afford the books or other reasons not having to do with direction.

Thanos

But in your statement 3) you are hostile. just because I really like the game and the direction I am now also the cause for ruining the game.

Get a life.

I have been playing SR since 1ed. The game was really in decline with 2nd ed and the books. After 3rd ed. it has just become beter and better. The best book I have form 2nd ed is DidS. In the german version not the cut down US version. It was a new style of writing. So now it is a EU style. Before it was a US style game. that is not ruining a game that is progression. Who knows it might get to be Asian game in 10-15 years. Who knows? Personally I wellcome change now and then. Being stuck is never good.

I'm not sure what your referring to here this is a Review thread for SoE not one on the direction SR is taking (that's over on the general board). I take it to mean it came up because SoE is a clear step in the wrong direction in your humble opinion, which would be a valid critical review, one that's highly contested but still valid.

As Thanos and Dutch have pointed one's man garbage is another man's treasure.

FYI while the Euro market has suffered less of a drop than the US one the American market is still the leading RPG market worldwide. Regarding Shadowrun this is also still true, because the biggest market within the EU (Germany) naturally consumes a lot of German-language material in detriment of English-language books.

It's just hit me that you've missed the point of this book entirely and more than that you've made the wrong extrapolation.

Of course the "feel is more European", you do realize this is a sourcebook on Europe don't you? Sorry for being flippant but that should go without saying. I fail to see how it makes the book any less "cyberpunk with elves". But that's besides the point.

Let me be clear about this: "SoE" is not representative of a style of development. In fact SoE was developed especifically to have that different feel, attitude, atmosphere and style of play to contrast with the traditional North American setting. This was done not only for the benefit of European readers, but also because its assumed that American gamers who want to take their players abroad and don't want Amsterdam to feel like Seattle2 or Paris to be Chicago2. The realities are different and the actors are different but its just a valid and consistent part of the setting as the NAN and Aztlan.

I can understand those people who might say the book lacks sufficient detail on locations, that cities are treated to only a couple of paragraphs (Heck, I have a ten page writeup of Lisbon district by district with notable locations which I always knew wouldn't fit in the book), however, I'm at a loss to understand why you keep making a point of stating that this is a huge development away from some mythical First Edition style. The only way I can understand this, is to assume that you haven't read all the First Edition releases (London, NAN1&2, Germany, and TNO). In fact, we made sure SoE built directly on those elements which haven't been touched upon since 1st Edition (with the exception of T:SH Europe was almost entirely ignored in 2nd Edition) - if you have evidence to the contrary please feel free to post it.

You've obviously completely missed the point with regards to Euro-governments (I'm of the opinion Skeptical has too). Eurogovernments are no more efficient or controlling than American governments, in fact SoE has more references to the way the corps actually control these governments (from behind the throne) than SoNA or any prior SR product to underline this fact (check France, Austria, UNL, Spain, Portugal, Finland, etc) - to the point where changes in government are manipulated by competing corporations (ie. Austria and France). Furthermore these governments also find themselves in the role they have always had not of caretakers of the democratic masses but of waiters to societies economic and social elites and special interests. If anything they are even more inefficient than say a NAN government because to many factions are exerting influence over the various national governments while these are still trying to retain public goodwill by keeping things rolling.

Are governments more involved in society and private life? Yes, but that's a natural development from Europe today (which is much different from the US) - we're the continent which several countires are already implementing SIN-analogue systems! Even today we realize that many of these government and EU liberalist initiatives are nothing more than Trojan horses for economic powers (ie. today's megacorps) why wouldn't things be even worse in 60 years time?

Does that change the way things work in the shadows? Of course it does. Anything else would be stupid. This is a different continent. A different set of rules. A different focus. But one which should be recognizable. From your posts I'm pretty sure than when Shadows of Asia comes out featuring really exotic locations your problems with the style will be even bigger.

Regarding another point, independently of what you think, detailed histories are necessary for a number of reasons. Chief among them because the vast majority of American readers lack the cultural references to understand why the Czech Republic reacted so differently to the Night of Rage than the UK (A reference that goes back to 1st Ed), how and where the French nobility have been hiding all these years (another reference from 1st Ed), why the hell use the title Lord Protector (another 1st Ed reference) and its implications, and how the Scand Union can exist side-by-side with its member-states (unsurprisingly yet another 1st Ed reference btw). But also because many many fans have been demanding more info on the Euro Wars, on what happened to the EU and on the nature of all those eco-catastrophes that hit Europe during the turn of the century, almost since the information came out in (wait for it) First Edition books.

I would refer you back to First Edition then, the material FASA put out on London, Germany and France (in indirect novel and sourcebook references).

Are you sure? I mean not the obvious Eiffel tower et al. but the subtle distinctions which make it a really different place to run. Though city descriptions are limited you should come away from SoE with a lot of information on the way the French people (and hence the NPCs) comport themselves: that overt cyber mods are a social no-no, that intrigue tends to involve elements political and social rather than strictly corporate, that the nobility never really went away, that despite their lauded defense of democracy the French are enamoured with their romanticized "aristocratic" history... not only that but it should establish how those realities play out in the Sixth World.

Depends on whether you prefer to focus on locations and places or you're focusing on major players, atmosphere and plots. The Shadows of format is admittedly weak on the former details, but big on the later. Whether those players and their agendas are compatible with your particular game is another issue.

You should come away from each country knowing the major elements of what's going on, who's doing what to whom, and more importantly an idea of the atmosphere of the setting.

That's a twist on my words, but fair enough. What I said was American readers lack the cultural references to put certain things into context. This is true of Europeans in America and its true of both our cultures in Asia. It's a simple statement of fact.

In SoE one of the big things that needed underlining was the schizophrenic approach to nationhood/sovereignty and European fellowship. The fact that European nationalisms date back thousands of years and borders a few miles long were paid for in blood is something that has engrained nationalism into the minds of Europeans in a way which has very little to do with American patriotic nationalism. At the same time the bloodshed visited on these shores for millenia have finally brought about a certain fellowship a distinctive understanding that we're all Europeans over the gulf of culture, history, blood and language which is an entirely different from a Californian and a New Yorker both saying they're Americans. I've worked with and studied with enough Americans to know that the distinction is not at all as obvious to them as it is to us.

Let me put it this way. Do you believe a single location book on the Czech Republic, Portugal, Austria or Spain for that matter would sell in the US market?
Would it be commercially viable? I'd say probably not. A UK book might just work but even France and Germany books are dubious given prior experience. So what's the alternative? 4-5 locations in a Target book (which IIRC you're not fond of either) or ignoring a potentially interesting site completely?

The latter is not ultimately not an option since as you've seen on this and other threads a great number of fans want more information on the Sixth World (even if it's just the skin and bones that you seem to think it is) rather than having it remain blank.

As you've seen by now on this and other threads in this subforum, a great many people don't agree with you. When we write this stuff we do a balancing act, between providing enough details to play with and making sure the reader gets the essentials

I compared it to SoNA, and saw similar criticism could be levelled at that book; I extrapolated that this demonstrated a shift in focus in location books that I didn't like.

You are correct. It is how Europe could be in 50 years if Shadowrun events came to pass. It is a "natural progression" but one that includes all the different elements of the Sixth World seen through the European prism: Megacorps rule the roost and are omnipresent they just control things from a facade of democracy; magic is pervasive but still unexplained and mysterious to produce wierdnesses like the Fog, the Fey and the Alpine manastorms; the traditional players in the European scene (local corps, artistos, etc) have carved niches in the spaces left by the big boys; governments cling to the few remnants of power while corps feed the illusion of democracy to keep the masses peaceful and the region stable while they slowly maneuver into greater and greater power; the underworld is organized differently with different agendas rooted in centuries of traditions and feuds; cyberwear and guns are less visible and pervasive because of social and cultural bias but are just as present in Europe as in America...

I don't see how any of this counters anything previously established in SR, and IMHO (for what it's worth) I don't think you've taken the European setting for how truly distopic and chaotic it is, but then again, I do not share your opinion or confidence in the supposed democratic representation in government agendas and effectiveness of police forces today, let alone their extrapolated effectiveness in the future.

Finally I'd just like to add that given the amount of controversy over the formation of the NAN and the shattering of Germany that has plagued SR since 1st Edition material, current writers really have no choice but to make the material more "believable".

Because this is the latest of the new, strong government/ strong law enforcement books. And the thread on the general board spawned off this one, because of this discussion. I've continued replying here because my posts keep getting replied to here.

Obviously this is true, but as a company making a product, FanPro should be seeing which idea makes it the most money.

Obviously, even if the smiley wasn't there, folks that enjoy the new style don't think it's ruining their game. Obviously that was a tongue in cheek reply, a joke if you will.
Obviously it's okay for others to be repeatedly hostile to me, while I try to explain my position. I even noticed in the SOTA 64 thread the reference to "influence" as a joke, even after it was acknowledged that I was correct, but folks didn't like what I infered in their minds?

This is the latest book in the series, it just happens to be about Europe.
When I speak of Euro-vs US style, I mean more along the lines of Big Government vs ineffectual government. I'm wondering how shadowrunners operate in the controlled environment, are they all on par with spy agencies?

London was not an effective government. The shadows were as deep there as anywhere. Tir Tairngire & Tir na nOg are a better comparison. Both had governments that stifled shadowrunning activities, and while good reads, both books are fairly useless to me. NAN1&2 portrayed mostly open countries with few if any actual controls. Germany was also one of those that didn't really give a lot of play options, and introduced Berlin, a chaotic city with a big wall... yeah.

The thing is, most of the 1e stuff that went that way was an anomaly. Other books focused more on places where shadowrunners can operate.

The problem isn't governmental control in itself, but control. The shadows become a different place. The "earlier times" I refer to, Corporations kept the government weak, so they could perform their actions unhindered. This allowed shadowrunners to form a society among the spaces, the shadows as it were. Now, corporations work to make Government work for them and spread their influence. The shadows are reduced, and I just can't see a shadowrunner society seperate from the criminal element.
In fact, now the Shadowrunners basically are part of the criminal element, and perhaps that distinction wasn't realistic, but some of us enjoyed it.

If Hong Kong's shadows are diminished, then probably. Japan has long been asked for definition, but really it's more of it's impact on other nations that makes it central to SR, rather than the nation itself. China would be interesting to see, but it's more of a place to stop by for an artifact, rather than a place to run in.

If you're going to use the Ignorant American role, then you might also wish to use the Uncaring American.
I surely won't understand why the Czech republic acted differently, true. Nor do I care. it's enough to say they did. If I need more, I have the internet.

Right, doesn't matter to the game. Are they here? fine and dandy.

implications are cool, that's what shadowtalk is for. "Hey, what's Lord Protector" "well, what it really means is this" with a short, paragraph of implications. I don't need history, thanks.

I'd rather know why they're important to shadowrunners.

As was mentioned elsewhere, there's the "I don't feel like detailing it, lets just make it a wasteland so no one goes there" approach to SR's world.
Most of FASA's EU history was geared towards explaining why Europe was no longer important to NA. It's a very NA centered game, and even more so, a Seattle based game. Seattle was made to be a total world, with other places being one trip wonders.
Now, I'm not that isolationist, but I think the city, the urban shadows, are more important to Shadowrun than the actual nations. London Sourcebook was great, because it shunted the unimportant stuff to the back, only detailing things like "Europe" as it affected London directly.
IMO ofc

The thread on the general board was begun to separate the discussions between what's wrong with SoE (which makes sense in a Review thread such as this) and what people would like to see done differently in SR (which makes sense in the general forum).

However, since we've strayed back to the specifics of SoE this discussion does make sense here.

So back on subject - I fail to see (admittedly I have a vested interest in the book and so may be missing something obvious that everyone else has caught) where you get the idea that eurogovernments are any stronger than North Am governments as described in SR since 1st Ed or how they're are any more effectual. In fact the fact that they've been bullied into signing more of their sovereignty over to corp control (via the NEEC) makes them seem even more corporate puppets to please the masses.

I'd appreciate a reference to one of these strong governments that isn't eating the corp's crumbs to put this into context. I see plenty of examples of countries groping at what remains of their sovereignty and historic power but none actually succeeding without being heavily compromised in one way or another.

We've been over the sales issue. Even if you chose to ignore what people have been saying here your still faced with the fact that something must be going right if FanPro and Shadowrun are still around and plan on putting out 4 more books

It's a tongue in cheek reply which inadvertently touches upon part of a wider problem.

That is simply because people like yourself seem to believe there is this conscious attempt to influence anything going on and just about anyone who's actually participated in writing for FanPro realizes how funny that sounds. In that respect it I freely admit to facetious, and apologize.

I recognize how easy it is to make such assumptions and I too harbored similar illusions before my first proposal was approved.

Again, I'd like to reiterate my request for an example of this controlled environment. I can understand references to the material in Switzerland and TNO in this context but you seem to believe its something much more far reaching.

Although interpretations vary, I beg to differ. Sargent and Gascoigne designed their Britain based on Thatcher England and it shows. Government is strongly centralized, secular power is monolithic almost fascist (see the extent of the NDM's influence and who actually controls ir) and there's an underlying current of bureaucratic power reaching everywhere (which many people disliked in the original London because even then it no longer reflected post-Thatcher England). In fact there's even references (which we built on) that the LPO controlled select parts of the British economy through Grenville-Addams. I fail to see where the shadows in SoE are any less deep than in London, I would agree they are less detailed (which comes from space limitations - Alistair and I could have filled 75 pages with the material we had) but not any less deep.

Then you won't mind naming a few of those 1st Edition books. If you mean NAGNA or even Seattle they are still in the minority when it comes to location books.

This seems to be a recurring theme in both your and Skeptical's posts. The fact that there are more players messing in the pond doesn't make it any more difficult to shadowrun if those players are actually less cohesive and coordinated, or as we describe, they are on collision courses with one another. There are simply more powers to cast shadows for runners to live in.

Let me throw some current day figures your way (these can be found in the UN 2003 Human Development Report). Less than 40% of all organized crime cases in Europe end with a conviction (most are never brought to trial) in Italy the figure today is close to 75%. In the US the figure rises to 50% (but syndicates/families also operate on a lower level). 40% of all violent crime in Europe goes unsolved and the figures are rising. In some American cities the values go as high as 60%.

Now who's being facetious? I was simply stating a fact not placing a cap on anyone. The reverse applies equally well. For every Americans do you know, who can tell you the capital of Switzerland or Norway off the cuff? How many have actually spoken at length with a Czech or a Pole to grasp their outlook and their mentality?

While you may not care, others obviously do. For most readers in fact it is not simply enough to say that something happened. The NAN is a good example of this - how many times has the subject had to be revisited because almost everyone agreed the first time their history was dealt with too many things weren't detailed. While your game might be American-centric and that might be actually be relevant, many other people have different views.

If these (French and others) aristos were introduced as a minor but influential player (which actually goes all the way back to 2nd Ed BBB and T:SH), it is definitely not enough for most players to say they just popped up out of the blue. To you they may be an incidental element, pure fluff, to the guy next door they're the next big thing in his campaign - I'd refer you to the France thread to indicate that not everyone agrees with the importance you give (as much as one online opinion is as valid as another).

I'll agree to disagree and to go back to the American audience issue. Very few Americans I know (and my field is International Relations and history) know who Oliver Cromwell was and what he represents in English history that his title would be brought back.

The first section of the Scand chapter explains this in fact. The reader's digest version is that the Scand states are desperately loosing ground to CC demands undermined from within some member states and pressures from without. Deniable assets are the pawns in the games of espionage, blackmail, active corruption, political leverage, etc involved. If this type of run isn't up your alley fine, but it is there with examples of who's doing what to whom.

Example?

Good. Now we get to the gist of it. The problem here is a lot of people obviously don't agree with you (once again judging simply by the skewed results of a fanboard and the admittedly unsubstantiated claims from several different people).

Part of the thing with the evolution of Shadowrun which you note yourself in your following post is the fact that even with current day techniques shadowrunning exclusively in one city is not a good idea. Eventually you would be tracked down by one or another of your enemies. Note I don't believe they're half as efficient as you apparently do (and they aren't in my game, runners are gnats corps and governments have neither the resources nor the time to squander on, except on the rare ocassion when they've made themselves into a serious thread) but it is an inevitablity. So the answer is becoming more mobile. Seattle too hot? Move to Denver or Austin for a few months.

In this respect you are correct, SOE presents a much more cosmopolitan setting, in that runners are active on a multinational level more so than a single sprawl. Maybe that doesn't suit your particular play style, however, it is neither contrary to the spirit of anything in Shadowrun canon nor the cyberpunk genre.

I do know who Cromwell was and what he did (over threw the monarchy, such as it was. However briefly). What does he represent to English history?

Thanos

Fan is short for something, you know.

~J

Like I mentioned, it doesn't matter if the government is strong because it's a strong government, or because the corps control it. Before, Governments were kept weak to let the corps have free reign, now they are strong to enforce their will, or a corporations will. Negligence is useful for SR, being a pawn of corporations isn't.
Seattle's government was just absent for most of the game. Now it has become more central in many ways to make political runs more accessible.

yeah, it's been brought up, but we haven't really been over it. Since we've been past the subject repeatedly, there's no sense in following the subject. I'm just saying that stating opinions differ doesn't mean one is more right than the other. If FanPro's current course is pulling them more money, then they should stay the course, regardless of those left behind. I'm just discussing my opinion on a discussion forum.

A tongue in cheek reply that purposefully touchs on the wider issue. I'm not the best example of a poster obviously since I don't post on this forum often, but I don't get mad about words floating in the ether, so it seems odd that others would read hostility into things. Emoticon's are mostly used because emotion is not adequately displayed.

a conscious effort? no. Like the whole corporate environment theory though, opinions draw like opinions in an area. I do not imagine Adam as the Godfather, but I do think when an idea is presented that doesn't vibe with the way he thinks of the game his influence will make that idea less likely to occur, simply through discussion. Boyle is not intervieing and tabulating every fan everywhere, so he relies on folks to help the direction of SR. I'm saying the Dumpshock Clique has more influence, because Dumpshock is seen as important to SR in a way that doesn't necasarily represent SR's buyers.
As for apology, none needed. Like I said, I don't get offended by posts floating in the ether. I'd just prefer if people didn't take what I say with a tone that's simply not there. Whether I represent a lot of people that think like me or not, I do represent some, so the opinions I state shouldn't be cast aside like I was here ranting "why can't I get rules for my vampire shapeshifter, you guys suck!"
Though, it is kind of sad that Mike M never published my rules for PC blackberry cats. I still maintain they added scope to the world.

The problem is that Shadowrunners in my mind should be seperate from organized crime, and common criminals.
For the vast majority of organized crime, you have those that never directly get involved and so there's no evidence. You also have the guys that are arrested and get out of the charges by lawyers. Add in those that are in and out of jail. Normal criminals (Disorganized Crime) are generally the latter two catagories. Most violent crime that goes unsolved is either low crime against those not in power, or one time events.

With Shadowrun, you have a group of operatives that repeatedly break into moderatly high security installations. The game kind of breaks down if they're repeatedly in police custody, whether they do jail time or get out of the crime by reason of attorney. The game is not realistic, but it's just a game. Unless there's something majorly stupid involved, the runners should be able to stay in their environment to have fun. And, there has to be enough of them to have a Runner community.

My point is, those that don't know, generally don't care. If I wanted to know the capital of Switzerland or Norway, I could look it up. If I don't want to know, why would I want to read it in an SR book? It's not a universal thing mind you, but that's the general idea.
When I had the runners going to the site of Sereatha (sp) I decided it was in Latvia. I got a map of Latvia, put the site somewhere that suited my needs, and had the general information of Latvia to go by. I'm sure my Latvia wasn't what FASA or FanPro would have made of it. (Walled city-enclaves in a vast field of fields, with some roving wanderer's and a bunch of paraanimals), but hey it worked. It was not somewhere to continue the campaign, but a wayspot to go once and forget. I don't need a sourcebook on such a limited role location.

Just the general first edition habit of making something undesireable with a one paragraph blurb because they didn't have the time/inclination to detail it at the time. The "wasteland" comment was somewhere on the board. Bunches of irradiated zones, toxic zones, etc.

Right, because Europeans are used to having a country right next door, several usually. That's not how the US is really set up, geographically speaking. It's a difference in outlook that I recognize, and I see the game evoling into that direction. Several times in this thread though, I've been told both that SR has not changed, and that it has changed, but that's natural. It has changed from what it was, and I prefered it the other way. Perhaps some day it will have an Asian Feel (as it was put earlier) and the European outlook folks will all be on the message board of the day decrying the loss of "their" SR.
And, "European" is simply a label, not automatically an accurate one.

There's also the idea that corporations put up with shadowrunner depradations because they're useful. Most crimes shadowrunners break are in Extraterritorial areas, so legally they didn't break UCAS law. Except of course by their very existance.
As an example, if the cops pull over the shadowrunners because their plates are missing (to avoid having their plate number scanned at the job site), and they get a cursory look over that reveals illegal cyberware and a deck that's illegal on so many levels it's amazing they can list them all on your charge sheet...
It can really bring down a run.

The current SR game I'm in mostly consists of investigations. Our methods are illegal, but the jobs aren't really. Not saying it's the way I want it to be, but that's what I'm in right now.

And this is the crux of my argument, and my criticisms: This is a bad way to make not just a Shadowrun book, but a gaming book. I'm sure that 50 years of fictional history for european nations is academically fascinating to some people, and I can even sort of appreciate such exercises myself. But as a game tool, it's really really weak. If you can squeeze it in after more useful information has been supplied, great.

If I'm running a game in Seattle, I'm not rushing to the section in New Seattle on governmental institutions or the history of seattle to flesh out my game; I'm flipping through neighborhoods, looking for interesting locations. That's a useful reference. The politics and history of the Seattle books are incidental filler, not the meat of the book. The "Shadows" style books are not, and in my opinion, Shadows of Europe is slightly more guilty than Shadows of North America.

Suggesting I refer to older sourcebooks or novels is really irrelevant; we're discussing whether or not Shadows of Europe is a good book. If you just like reading about game history, I guess it has its place. But for all practical purposes, this is a poor book. Because like Voce has said, if I'm running a game, players don't care. Playing a game isn't a history lesson, it's an adventure. And if I wanted a history lesson, I could probably head to the Wikipedia and get a plethora of information on any country I can think of. A 240-page, thirty+ dollar book should be of practical use to my game in order to qualify as good.

Hence the shadow part. Unseen. You're not supposed to get caught. And that particular problem is so easy to overcome... Lets see. Revolving licence plates, magnetic licence plates. But wait they are all lazy, incompetent and corrupt. So you can pretty much drive around with out plates. If for some outlandish reason a Lone Star officer would put down his donut and stop you, just offer him some . Problem solved. Move on. They, and not just LS, have to have something going for them or they are just strawmen for munchkins to effortlessly kill.

If you want to come up for some reason as an organization they are inefficient or ineffective fine. But, as an orginization they can't both be corrupt and incompetent.

Referring to older sourcebooks is to say that many of your complaints have existed from day one or that 1st ed is being romantisied. If you take out the history and politics from the Seattle book then all you have is a list of neighbor hoods and places to go. I don't know about you but I can make up names all night long. Why would I need such a list?

Yeah. You guys have go to the Butler section of the Pittsburgh sprawl. It's the little town of Harrigansville. You have to meet Mr. J on the corner of 5th and Main. I did that with out a book and it only took about 20 seconds. Then you got to the Purple Nutbuster. It's a new club in town. It's an up and comer with the well to do. Or its a seedy run down blue collar bar. That took about 15 seconds. I can go on and on. What I'm not good at is politics, crime, and history. Since no one cares about the politics or history. Well I don't really have to worry about it. Crime. Oh! Watch out for Don Clacigone. His guys pretty much run the crime seen in Harrigansville. Mostly gambling and Prostitution. That took 5 to 8 seconds.

I've said this before. It is this fluff that you are complaining about that makes Shadowrun, Shadowrun. If you remove all that then you are left with books that are lists of names and stats. The gritty, somewhat hopeless, cyberpunk feel from 1st ed that you pine for wouldn't exist with out it.

Thanos

That's a bit overgeneralizing, because if you drive down town, they have a scan of your barcode plate wherever you go, changing plates only helps so far. The idea is that the dichotomy between Control and Not is greater. Your wealthy neighborhoods are patrolled, but the Star knows where it's checks come from and doesn't assign people to every place. There aren't enough cops to pull over every unlicensed plate, and such.

Obviously you prefer a stricter realism than I do, that doesn't mean my games revolve around munchkin's & mayhem. It's the old joke about an SR run taking longer to plan then to actually play, it wasn't always true. I prefer easier, simple, not simplistic.

True, we want flavor. The thing is, we want flavor that affects the game, not a treatise on politics and history. We want a setting full of useful flavor.

Moot point; I could make up anything. I could just make up dragons, corporate head honchos, whatever; in fact, I do, because I've never, ever run with a group of players who care about the politics or purpose of their run, outside of the immediate context of that run. The grand scheme of thing means zip to them; if I have a grand scheme, it only serves to give me a kick. The players notice if the locales they go to are interesting, or if the people they actually interact with are intersting.

I agree, fluff makes Shadowrun. That's why it has to be fluff that's useful, and SEEN by the players. An interesting neighborhood is one the players will remember, and one that will make the playing experience interesting. A politician who hires Mr. Johnson to hire the runners in order to further his plans of taking over the city is all well and good, but the only thing my players are ever going to see is Mr. Johnson. They might infer some inkling of that larger plot, but ultimately they only care what's happening to THEM. And they are trawling bars and nightclubs, breaking into corporate installations, dealing with street-level criminals, and generally living in the neighborhoods of Seattle. Most of MY players have a good reckoning of Seattle's (fictional) geography, and that affects the setting. It makes Seattle more real, than if I just pluck up some random city elsewhere and make up my own details. Why is Seattle the default setting? Because everybody knows Seattle. If I ran a game in Paris, it's going to suffer in comparison, because I have no details or reference on Paris. And that's why I buy place books; to have reference to something so I don't have to do all that work myself. Not because I'm fascinated by a fictional future of Europe.

With that in mind, who cares if the runners are working for a dragon, a corporate boss, a CIA agent, a mayor, or a janitor? Not my players. Maybe some guys on Dumpshock get a kick out of this vast unravelling story in the SR universe, but I'm busy playing the game and making my own stories, and my players barely post here at all.

Take NAN. Sure you can have NAN. But why. Well it doesn't really matter. For some reason the surviving tribes in the early 2020's formed their own nations. Well what happened to the USA? Oh they're still around. Didn't they try to stop them? I don't know. Does it matter? NAN exists. It sounds cool.

Now I'm sure NAN started out as just a cool concept but FASA knew people would ask questions. So they came up with a why and a where fore. An unlikely why and where fore I grant you, but there it is. Part of their why and where fore has to do with... any one? Oh that's right. History. See it turns out the Native Americans were really pissed about stuff that happened to them in the past and was happening to them again. NAN with out the context of history is considerably less than it is with it. The history and politics are the context.

I have not read SoE. I probably won't have it for about a month. So I can't comment directly on that book. IMOHO you have to have the history, politics that you and Skeptic claim not to like. Now my question is, do you really not like it or is it that you simply don't like the way it's presented?

Thanos

Why? They don't care. It's only what's right in front of them and the current job. Really. Who cares

In reply to your question it's 5 miles east. I 94, old rt 209. 5 seconds.

And yes, I do take notes when I run sessions. One of my current projects is to up date my list of living npc's.

Thanos

Again I can't comment on SoE but I can't think of an instance where the fluff of any book as gone in to that kind of detail.

I can only quess that the Basques have there own country now. Well why? How did that happen? Centuries of oppression and repression and violence by Spain. Well why? Well they are ethnically different from most of the population of Spain and had their own county at one time. When the awakening come and the year(s) of chaos they fought for independence. They still don't get along with Spain.

Thanos

[EDIT] Not sure about the ethnically differnet part. Damn lazy, ignorant american.

I'm glad I don't game with your players, then.

And I-94 demonstrably goes nowhere near PA. It stretches from Montana to Michigan. A player cannot independently research based on that information; everything must go through you as GM. In my opinion, that takes away one of the great strengths of Shadowrun.

~J

It does in 2063. If I as GM want it or need it to.

My players do take notes. I was commenting on my perception of Voce and Skeptics take on things.

As far as independent research goes... During sessions they are free to look at what ever books I own (and I own many more than my players) they can even borrow them between sessions. However how are they going to research the security around the senior vp they have to extract from a book. There are a lot of things they absolutely have to go through me to get because they aren't in books. Did you know that that sr. vp. has a magically active daughter? That info ain't in any book and it adds to possible problems for the group.

Thanos

To be more accurate, you're mocking everything we've said. Unless I've misread your tone, as I mentioned above.

We're saying the facts that are important to runners should be in the books, since the games are about runners. We're not saying there should be no history ever, just that it should be part of the discussion. Besides which, the basic history does not need to be restated for every single place that happens to come through the pipeline.