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Paul
QUOTE ("Synner")
I started giving them what they wanted and never looked back.


I'm going to have your babies. No really. smile.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Aug 4 2004, 07:40 PM)
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 4 2004, 07:31 AM)
I was simply pointing out that while Synner might think that Spinrad is likely to interact with runners, I don't see anything in the BOOK to suggest that.

Dragons of the Sixth World implies it once you know that Weaver is Spinrad. And I just now got the pun.

I think Skeptical meant "_personally_ interact with runners" and in hindsight he'd be correct. SoE doesn't imply that of Spinrad personally (the reason for my mistake should be evident in a few more days). It is however mentioned in several places that many among the aristos, politicos and corporate crowd (like Spinrad's pal Emanuel Salles) have direct dealings with the shadows and underworld.

This long? You're slipping Kage wink.gif A guy puts all that work into a bad pun...
Kanada Ten
I'm sure Kage got it right away. Kanada is just a bit slower.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE
Are you sure you prefer the other style?


Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I played the old game a while back, then had a gap of not playing, and a few years back I began again. We've played a variety of campaigns, and I know what I like.

QUOTE
I'll even give you that a lot of the recent books were lacking in "energy". (The last 3 that I read seem to have put paid to that problem.)
The writing style of some of the newer books is kind of bland to me, but I don't think that's it. Format wise, as I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of the "Shadowrunner writes an essay and then other shadowrunners agree with him, except for Random Whacky Guy who says it's all wrong" format. It's not universal mind you, but a general trend in material for a decent time.

QUOTE
I'm curious how old were you when you started playing SR and how old are you now? I may be completely wrong and age has nothing to do with your opinions but I'm still curios as to how old you are.

I'm 31 now, SR was what, 89?
So, I guess if your curios, I must be relic? smile.gif
Synner
My bad, I've been pulling too many late nights with this thread. Nice to see ya back Kanada. I'll have some mail for you tomorrow at the latest.
Thanos007
QUOTE
The writing style of some of the newer books is kind of bland to me, but I don't think that's it. Format wise, as I mentioned before, I'm not a fan of the "Shadowrunner writes an essay and then other shadowrunners agree with him, except for Random Whacky Guy who says it's all wrong" format. It's not universal mind you, but a general trend in material for a decent time.


You know what? I'll buy that for a dollar! I do belive you've hit the nail on the head. I couldn't really figure out why they were bland but you've got it.

QUOTE
I'm 31 now, SR was what, 89?
So, I guess if your curios, I must be relic?


Nope! I long for the days when I was 31. Ok. Actually 25-28 but that's neither here nor there. So you were 16 when you 1st got involved. I was 27. I don't know if we can draw any conclusions from that but there it is to muse over.

QUOTE
I played the old game a while back, then had a gap of not playing, and a few years back I began again. We've played a variety of campaigns, and I know what I like


Your experience is similar to mine. I stopped playing, ohhh, just before Super Tuesday or shortly after. I never bought it. I started playing again August of last year. And while I've noticed some differences it still seams like Shadowrun to me.

Thanos
VoceNoctum
QUOTE
QUOTE
I'm 31 now, SR was what, 89?
So, I guess if your curios, I must be relic?


Nope! I long for the days when I was 31. Ok. Actually 25-28 but that's neither here nor there. So you were 16 when you 1st got involved. I was 27. I don't know if we can draw any conclusions from that but there it is to muse over.

It was a spelling joke, you mispelled Curious. Though, since 30 is the Hill, technically I am now Old. You might be Ancient though, that's a given. smile.gif

QUOTE

Your experience is similar to mine. I stopped playing, ohhh, just before Super Tuesday or shortly after. I never bought it. I started playing again August of last year. And while I've noticed some differences it still seams like Shadowrun to me.

I never actually stopped buying stuff. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I'm an SR Completionist and I've bought nearly everything. My real life game group splintered, and it was a while before I got into online gaming.
Skeptical Clown
I'm 24. I started playing when I was 13. My gaming development has sort of moved in reverse of Shadowrun's; I used to run games like it was Final Fantasy or something, and I was interested in Big Themes and Powerful People and runners who Shaped the World. But over the years I've really grown out of that; I realized it fed my conceit more than it amused my players. More than that, I just got tired of plot, and more interested in character. Plus, I developed a keener appreciation for the stylistic elements of Shadowrun that I just didn't get when I was younger. Plot is great and all, it keeps things moving, but my biggest kick as a gamemaster is watching characters react to what's happening, and to each other. Particularly when the unexpected occurs.
Thanos007
QUOTE
I'm 24. I started playing when I was 13. My gaming development has sort of moved in reverse of Shadowrun's; I used to run games like it was Final Fantasy or something, and I was interested in Big Themes and Powerful People and runners who Shaped the World. But over the years I've really grown out of that; I realized it fed my conceit more than it amused my players. More than that, I just got tired of plot, and more interested in character. Plus, I developed a keener appreciation for the stylistic elements of Shadowrun that I just didn't get when I was younger. Plot is great and all, it keeps things moving, but my biggest kick as a gamemaster is watching characters react to what's happening, and to each other. Particularly when the unexpected occurs.



To take the thread wildly off topic. Variety is the spice of life. Not all my runs are super heavy on plot. Not all of the are serious. Some are horror themed some are just run and gun. I like to mix it up. Some are ragged clothes in the barrens. Some are formal were at a corporate mixer.

Thanos

P.S. I didn't miss spell curious. Spell check did smile.gif
Sepherim
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
Face-to-face implies that someone has to meet Shadowrunners face-to-face to hire them, but that's almost universally true anyway. It doesn't imply that Spinrad is going out there himself and hiring runners. That would be kind of stupid, really, since runners have no loyalty to him, and might be scared enough of the dragon's wrath that they'd rat on him. It also kind of ruins the whole idea of plausible deniability.

It also implies that the internal comunications of most corps might be tagged. So it's forced, due to common paranoia, that the line of middlemen be short, based on trusted people. Spinrad himself? Maybe not, but maybe his left hand, or someone close enough to be trusted but not traced...
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Thanos007)
To take the thread wildly off topic. Variety is the spice of life. Not all my runs are super heavy on plot. Not all of the are serious. Some are horror themed some are just run and gun. I like to mix it up. Some are ragged clothes in the barrens. Some are formal were at a corporate mixer.

Thanos

P.S. I didn't miss spell curious. Spell check did smile.gif

Excuses excuses nyahnyah.gif

For my old campaign, most of the published adventure's I used were from Call of Cthulhu. It was actually easier to convert the 1920's adventures to SR then it was the Modern ones, simply because the 90's stuff was more tech focused.
Jérémie
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
I don't mind the "anti-Lofwyr group" as long as they lose in the end in a big way.


I'm pretty sure in the long way, everyone will lose. But to debate this, you need to define the long way, because it's not the same thing for us, for the small and big players in SR's world, and for a dragon.
QUOTE
It's like asking if Darth Vader wouldn't be more interesting if we knew his back story

Yes.
QUOTE
if Superman wouldn't be better if he stopped being a good guy and started being a villain

Definitely, yes.

The point is, what you like is your own business, you may be a minority over a specific issue. Here, of course there is a lot of anti-Lofwyr people, way before SoE or even the star of EuroSB I've always thought a lot of people in Europe would hate Lofwyr, mainly blue collar workers and policlubs, sometimes backed (for good or not so good reasons) by corporate and politic assets.

And of course Lofwyr will lose from time to time. Again, define losing. Is it a personnal setback ? A personnal confrontation ? I don't think so, some pieces here and here (as in Technobabel, good demo about where Lofwyr really stands in a personnal powerplayer point of view) demonstrate the opposite. But that doesn't mean he won't loose some billions here and here, some asset, ang regain other, and loose others, and regain others... as any powerplayers, any corporate entity... well anyone in fact.
QUOTE
What have you accomplished, other than made him less unique?

Making him more complex ? Less absolute ? More machiavel maybe, he doesn't mark time as we do, we don't know all the in and out of his so-call "setbacks".
Kagetenshi
Lofwyr will lose.

Where losing is defined as taking a few more years, maybe as much as a decade or two, to accomplish what he wants to.

~J
Skeptical Clown
QUOTE (Jérémie @ Aug 5 2004, 11:56 AM)
[
QUOTE
It's like asking if Darth Vader wouldn't be more interesting if we knew his back story

Yes.


Clearly, someone hasn't been watching the same Star Wars movies as me.

And losing is generally defined as "not winning." If he wins in 20 years, or wins in 1, that's not "losing." Of course, everyone has setbacks, but Lofwyr's defining trait, the main thing that made him interesting, was that even his setbacks seemed to turn into victories. Lately the attitude seems to be that he's "just another dragon." Yeah, that's really making him more interesting.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Aug 5 2004, 07:34 AM)
And losing is generally defined as "not winning."

And Irony is generally defined as "The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. "

~J
Skeptical Clown
Sheesh, then take a note from Voce and use a smiley to indicate the irony! It's not the easier tone to convey online. nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
Well, I don't understand what's so difficult about it. It's not like I've ever made a mistake on that.

~J

[edit] wink.gif
Black Isis
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
QUOTE (Jérémie @ Aug 5 2004, 11:56 AM)
QUOTE
It's like asking if Darth Vader wouldn't be more interesting if we knew his back story

Yes.


Clearly, someone hasn't been watching the same Star Wars movies as me.

Darth Vader's backstory could be interesting. It's just that the current braindump from Lucas on the matter has not been very well written, directed, or acted....you picked a bad example.
Skeptical Clown
Perhaps. But I'm not sure what kind of prequels would have really added to the character in any necessary way. Darth Vader of the original trilogy is as pure and excellent an example of a movie character as any; perhaps an interesting story could be told about him outside the context, but it really couldn't add much to what is already an impressive creation.

It's not a DEEP character, of course, but Star Wars was never intended to be deep.
BIG BAD BEESTE
Getting off topic again guys (even if Darth is a great character by just his visual appearance. Its the old rule of familiarity breeds contempt. The more you learn the less mystique and impact the character has.)

Anyhow, back to SoE and the Shadows Of Whereever formats. I'll agree that there is less overall energy and a lacking of the vibrancy that originally appeared in the 1st Ed books. But that's because the focus of these new sourcebooks has changed. The original books had more space for incidental "fluff" and also the fact that everyuthing was new. There was a large open slate to create and fill in the gaps left by the rulebook. With the recent Shadows of books we have had to severely limit the information to what is relevant to the current countries and also incorporate as much of the pre-written canon as possible as well as include a touch-up on the current events that have shaped the last ten game years. Not an easy prospect. Unfortunatley there is no room to include all the street level details as we would have liked to. That is where the Gamemaster is free to create there own flesh. to build upon the bones and skeleton of what we have provided.
Kagetenshi
But that's the problem. It's like the dinosaur dilemma. We can recreate bits of skeleton that are missing with at least a halfway decent probability of it approaching accuracy, but since we don't have any flesh whatsoever we can't do more than wildly guess at colour, texture, etc.

We don't want the whole beast, but some scraps of flesh are sorely needed.

~J, hyperextender of simile
Skeptical Clown
If a "Shadows of..." style book can't provide enough information to run a campaign in the provided locations, then the Shadows format is a bad format, and somebody needs to go back to the drawing board. There are countries that seem decent and possible to run in (Switzerland, Netherlands). It's a crying shame that more space wasn't dedicated to them, instead of chapters for nations that are either unrunnable (Tir na nOg) or chapters that barely even detail the country they are allegedly about (Italian States).
Synner
QUOTE (Skeptical Clown)
If a "Shadows of..." style book can't provide enough information to run a campaign in the provided locations, then the Shadows format is a bad format, and somebody needs to go back to the drawing board.


Again this is a matter of opinion and gaming style. I've counted half a dozen people on this subforum alone who don't agree with you and will be running adventures and campaigns based on SoE.

This isn't to say SoE doesn't have its flaws, it does (I've yet to see a sourcebook that doesn't) however what you percieve as too broad a picture and not enough detail others percieve as just the right amount of background to liberally adapt to the feel and style of their campaigns. Mileage varies and though you obviously aren't pleased a head count of those who've done reviews and voiced opinions places you in the minority (even if it is of a non-representative, which btw I don't actually believe is true).

Ultimately the true issue here is whether other format alternatives would have been as commerically viable - either Target: style books oncentrating on only 3-4 countries/locations or single country/city books and would they give players the bigger picture of the Sixth World they have been demanding (and believe me FanPro would not be putting out these books if there hadn't been a demand for more information on the Sixth World.

Then there's also the issue of trying to second guess what the audience might want in a more limited format when the audience really has no idea of what concepts are going into a country. For instance an obvious alternative would have been a Target: Europe book with London, Paris, Berlin and Amsterdam/Europort. Cool. Might even sell. But why not Rome/Vatican? What not Zurich? Why not Lisbon? All of those have IMHO huge potential and because they lack canon you can even introduce entirely new stuff. Where do you draw the line? Where do you set the balance?

The "Shadows of..." format allows for the broader picture at the expense of the details that gamemasters normally prefer to control anyway. It offers not just adventure seeds and background but players and agendas that can generate multiple runs and plots depending on how the GM choses to use them. But more importantly it leaves the door open for further development.

Now that they know the essentials, if people want more then further material becomes more plausible. If there's enough demand a Target book detailing particular areas might be in order, or a track campaign book developing the major plots in SoE to name just a couple of possibilities.

QUOTE
  There are countries that seem decent and possible to run in (Switzerland, Netherlands).  It's a crying shame that more space wasn't dedicated to them, instead of chapters for nations that are either unrunnable (Tir na nOg) or chapters that barely even detail the country they are allegedly about (Italian States).

Once again you really should but an IMO in there somewhere, because while this may be your opinion others obviously disagree - case in point at least one person on this forum's said they want to set a whole campaign in Italy...
Skeptical Clown
Why do I need to put a qualifier? I think opinions are pretty obvious... and I'd never put IMHO, because my opinions obviously aren't humble. cool.gif Besides, opinions matter, obviously, because these are the opinions of people who buy Shadowrun books.

Plus, I don't even think what you're objecting to is a matter of opinion. I count about eleven pages of text in the Italy chapter, and a full five of them are focused on Church matters. Thus, I stand by it as basically true.

Anyway, someone might very well run a campaign in Italy. But they basically have to do all the work themselves (since it's not really the Italy chapter, but the Church chapter.) As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of buying a location book is so that you have locational information. The way to choose just a couple locations is easy: Someone who is in charge of the line takes proposals, finds the most interesting, and develops those. The "Target" style format obviously hasn't sold poorly in the past, since they've produced nearly half a dozen of them. You may ask, "Why not X?", but people are going to do that anyway. You could detail every major city on the planet, and someone would be asking "Why not Dusseldorf?" So saying that people would ask for more isn't much of an excuse. Even SoE doesn't actually cover all the nations of europe. I would've liked to see Greece, for example, but that isn't a mark against SoE.

The issue of format isn't the ONLY problem I have with the book, but it's certainly one of them. There is indeed a demand for information about other locations, but let's face it, the Shadowrun production schedule has been abysmal for years. We're hungry for ANY crumbs tossed our way.
VoceNoctum
The Netherlands interested me (maybe just because it had lower case van's smile.gif but there's barely anything there, so I don't see what use that chapter is really. It was well written though, IMO.

But, Tir na nOg and London, like Tir Tairngire before them (in SoNA) seemed to dislike the earlier material, and focus on the organizations to dismantle the previous information. Not only are they useless to me, but they actually try to sabotage what I liked about the previous nations. (Even if Tir na nOg was not a good setting for runners, it was an enjoyable read.) But IMO, that's just my opinion, which I think is the correct opinion, as it's mine. smile.gif
Synner
The importance of using IMO or any other conditional when referring to something like this is to avoid generalizations and underlining that what you're posting is subjective. Why? Simply because while it is obvious that your opinion is simply one of many, what is not obvious is how generalized it is and to what extent their "subjectiveness". In this case at least the opinions being expressed while entirely valid and "correct" to their authors are obviously in the minority (of posters). Same goes for using descriptors like using "people" instead of "some people" being obviously misleading when making a pronouncement. And to be perfectly correct all you can honestly say is that "this is the opinion of one person who buys SR books" - others can then agree or disagree with you.

It was a suggestion and no more than that. Do what you like, its a (moderately) free forum.

Regarding Italy, I won't get into it here, but I will refer you to my reply on the relevant thread and the opinions of other people therein. While many agree with you that the Italian material provides too broad a view of the subnations, the vast majority (so far) have said they are pleased with the material allocated to the Church in that context. If I can't please everyone, and the best I can hope for is to please the majority of the readers then I'm pretty happy with the reaction so far.

VoceNostrum - You are correct as to the material in London and TNO. Although I'd like to underline something very clearly. Regarding the UK particularly, all the potential writers - natives like 80% of SOE writers - of the chapter (and the UK went through a looong line of them during the EuroSB period) were all for revamping the UK setting significantly from what is in London and doing away with what was there in the first place. While you obviously liked it (and personally I enjoyed it too), the vast majority of readers -especially Brit ones - (opinions sampled online, at conventions and in stores) while they liked the atmosphere clearly disliked the Thatcher Age-inspired setting and institutions don't share your views. There's a reason London was never reprinted.
So instead of sweeping canon elements of the setting under the rug, the final writers opted to give players the chance to decide whether they want to keep the regime (and the NDM, etc) or not, and influence events by taking sides in the current situation. Whether you agree with this or not, what I do know is that I got 12 mails from a UK RPG mailing list congratulating me on the contents of the chapter on the first week it hit British stores and a couple of posts by Brit DSF members. I'm hoping to see more reviews of the UK here soon, to gauge American reactions but so far I believe you're a minority in the potential audience.
Skeptical Clown
I consider the minority and majority of posters in this forum fairly unimportant. There are only a handful of people posting in this thread, and only a handful more posting in the SoE forum at large. Hardly representative of the Shadowrun community at large, I'm sure. Our arguments should be evaluated on their individual merits, and not on some appeal to the masses.
Synner
Which is why stating using conditionals is relevant and important. At most you are stating your personal opinion, if not then you back it up with a reference for that belief.

In this particular case you've stated your disappointment with Italian chapter and with the fact that you believe it actually isn't enough to play a campaign there. Since I'm not at liberty from debating that point directly with my opinion, simply because I wrote the damn chapter, I am forced to point out that other people's opinions patently differ from yours on a number of the points you made regarding that chapter. Even acknowledging that Forum posters are not representative of the wider community (purely for the purpose of this discussion since I don't agree with you), then one must acknowledge that one way to evaluate the merit of an opinion is by opposing it with another (equally valid one).

You say the Church section is excessive or unnecessary, somebody else says that it is appropriate in context. You say bad, someone else says good. Which is more valid or relevant? Which has more merit?

Assuming equal value, I pointed you towards the Italy thread simply because several people agreed with you on the fact that areas of Italy are barely sketched in, but most of those people are comfortable with the fact that a trade off was needed to include the Church (within the limits of the format) and that the Church was a necessary addition in the overall European context. Though my opinion is void, because I was the writer, I will say those are my sentiments exactly.

Had the book allowed even a half a dozen more pages I would have gone into further detail on Sicily, Naples and Central Republics. As it is I believe I've covered all the basics. The atmosphere and feel for the country, check. The major players including some name dropping, check. The underworld movers-and-shakers, check. Relevant agendas, check. Some unique elements, check.

Does it have the name of the nightclubs in the shady parts of Rome? No. Does it have the best fixers in town? No. But none of that is essential to playing in the country. ie. Does it have the people who'll be hiring the fixers hiring the runners and those people's relevant personal, political and economic agendas? Yes.
VoceNoctum
Sinner> It really comes down to with so little space, deciding what was wasted space and what wasn't. The UK chapter by itself surely wouldn't have enough room to rewrite the UK Setting, so an attempt shouldn't have been wasted on it IMO. All the detail work that went into the earlier books can't be matched by a 10 page section, true, but SoE doesn't actually present enough on the countries (UK, Tir) to make them useful alone. So, having that 10 pages try to invalidate the previous material doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

And, the country books written by their own countries usually try to Out Uber each other, so perhaps they shouldn't get to write their own stuff? smile.gif
otaku mike
Yawn...
Can't we agree to disagree? This thread is a gigantic headache going nowhere.
Points have been made, counterarguments given. Surely this is enough to satisfy both parties.
Sepherim
I'm with Otaku Mike on this one. Seems like no one is willing to change their POVs (which is completely acceptable), so there's no point in continuing with this. We wanted critics. Well, those are one, and probably an important one. Wether it's right or not is an issue we probable won't be able to settle, so maybe it's time to move to the next point.
Skeptical Clown
Actually, I don't think I said that I dislike the Italy section because I don't like the Church stuff. I don't care for the Church stuff really, but I know some people do. What irks me is that, while all the chapters are thin on information, the Italy Chapter is especially thin, since half of it is devoted to just one small aspect of the country. So I can't really establish an opinion on Italy itself, as I don't have much of a frame of reference.

On the other hand, I guess it's the only chapter that actually gives a lot of information on a specific subject, so I can't complain too much wink.gif

Anyway, I post because I keep seeing things to talk about. If it runs out of things to reply to, I'll shut up.
Kanada Ten
Yeah, one of the advantages of covering the Church (despite using a nation's chapter to do it) is that the Vatican has influence far beyond the borders of the Papal States and fits well within the theme of "Shadows of Europe" - that is the interconnections and conflicts between the forces in the Old World, and how that affects the Shadowverse.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (otaku mike)
Yawn...
Can't we agree to disagree? This thread is a gigantic headache going nowhere.
Points have been made, counterarguments given. Surely this is enough to satisfy both parties.

I think we all figured that out a few pages ago, and are just discussing in more depth. Not sure why you'd read a thread that gives you headaches. smile.gif
SiM
We're still hoping that the thread returns to it's original function: reviews of SoE.
otaku mike
QUOTE (VoceNoctum)
Not sure why you'd read a thread that gives you headaches. smile.gif

Maybe because, as one of the writers, I feel like I'd like to know what the readers think of the book wink.gif
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (otaku mike)
QUOTE (VoceNoctum @ Aug 8 2004, 04:05 AM)
Not sure why you'd read a thread that gives you headaches. smile.gif

Maybe because, as one of the writers, I feel like I'd like to know what the readers think of the book wink.gif

Well, which part did you write, I'll comment on it next. nyahnyah.gif

But, really this thread should be useful in the fact that discussion had continued. While surely I'll never convince Synner that my path is right, there is still plenty of discussion about the actual book. There are plenty of other review threads on SoE, and none of them really have much discussion. Certainly none have the essay's that have been posted to this one. smile.gif
otaku mike
We wrote the French chapter (Corporations was by NMAth, Brittany was by Namergon, and everything else by me).
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (otaku mike)
We wrote the French chapter (Corporations was by NMAth, Brittany was by Namergon, and everything else by me).

haven't read France yet, but soon... smile.gif
L.D
I've read most of the book by now and I have one major problem: There's not enough pages for each country. It seems to be about 10 pages per country/chapter (it varies from chapter to chapter and some describe more than one country) and to me that's not enough. I'd have wanted at least five more pages per country/chapter. I'm probably in minority (or maybe even quite alone) but I would have loved to see it split into two separate books (like the NAN-books) and then you could have gotten some more info about the countries not covered by chapters in SoE. A lot of places are mentioned in just one sentence and that's just teasing.

I also miss maps of cities.

Otherwise it's good.
Synner
Well, I think I'm speaking for all the writers in saying we would all have liked to have another 5 pages to work with. But those are the constraints of the format. I seriously doubt a 480 page book with a price tag of 50$ would be as commercially viable and breaking it up into multiple books dilutes the points of interest and potential buyers for each... as to the countries not covered, don't despair they might still get a visit in future sourcebooks.

All that being said some SoE tie-in material will continue to feature in upcoming FanPro books... and there are plans afoot to release some of the unpublished material (mid-term) as an unofficial web supplement.
Snow_Fox
With the chuirch being borught up in Italy, I think it was needed, beyond the churches influence in that country, remember it is also a major player in France, Spain, Portugal and Poland. It's development in "Italy" ties together those elements in the book and saves them from being disparate items. Add on that it plays a role in the resistance in Tir Na Nog and Aztlan and could be an element with the Huk in the Philipine, it would have been conspicuous by it's absence.
Cereberus_Nacht
The nail-chewing is over! Someday my local comics&games shopkeep will have his distributor bring things on time, and on that day, the world shall spin backward.

I'm not quite finished, but I can say I like what I've read so far. I was a little apprehensive before ("Are they going to do a good job? Oh, please pleeeeese let them do a good job! I want a good book!!") but I had an idea about the writers, so I was tentatively optimistic.

I am happy with this book as an overview. There are of course things I would have liked to see - city maps, more details on about half of the countries, I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said - but I realise that for that level of detail I'd love to see, each country would need its own book. For all that everything must have been pruned more than a bonsai tree, there is enough here to make this one of the best setting books I've read in a while.

I was especially impressed by the section on Poland, the handling of the Vatican, and the way history has not been discarded in the face of magic and ubertech. I also like how well magic was subtley integrated into things. All in all, very believable. It gives a lot of good directions, and the rest we'll have to fill in with research and creativity, and maybe some interesting online suppliments. *wink*

I overheard my GM (not currently running a SR campaign) say she wasn't bothering with NA anymore now that she has this book, and I can't say I'm unhappy!
audun
QUOTE (Cereberus_Nacht)

I overheard my GM (not currently running a SR campaign) say she wasn't bothering with NA anymore now that she has this book, and I can't say I'm unhappy!

Synner! You got that? rollin.gif
Best thing anyone said so far (or could possible say).
Method

I like the cover art A LOT. I think its one of the best covers I've seen in a long, long damn time. I think SR needs more of that kind of gritty realism in its artwork.
Synner
QUOTE (audun @ Aug 20 2004, 12:55 PM)
QUOTE (Cereberus_Nacht)

I overheard my GM (not currently running a SR campaign) say she wasn't bothering with NA anymore now that she has this book, and I can't say I'm unhappy!

Synner! You got that? rollin.gif
Best thing anyone said so far (or could possible say).

It is indeed one of the best compliments out possible, and one far more common than just the posts on this thread would suggest. As well as the positive feedback that can be found here and there on Dumpshock, I think it's also interesting to see that the vast majority of Europeans seem to have enjoyed the book too. This is one of many from the French Shadowrun forums (there are more in German on the FanPro D forums but my German isn't that good):

QUOTE (Henker on www.Shadowforums.com)
Franchement plus je parcoure le SoE et plus je trouve que le travail qui à été fait est exceptionnel. J'ai pas tout finit mais c'est pour le moment que des bonnes surprises. Autant à la sortie de "France" le running européen ne m'attirais pas du tout, autant avec le SOE c'est tout autre chose.. je trouve meme l'amerique du nord moins attirante.
Je crois que pour moi ce sera beaucoup de running européen maintenant.
Félicitation à tous pour le bouleau que vous avez fait. C'est top!

"Honestly, the more I go over SoE the more I find the work gone into it exceptional. I haven't finished reading all of it, but so far its been all cool surprises. Following France's (the local sb) release, running in Europe wasn't all that appealing to me, but with SoE its something else entirely... in fact I find North America less attractive. I think that as far as I'm concerned, I'll be doing a lot more running in Europe from now on. It's great!" - apologies to the author for any translation mistakes, my French is rusty.
otaku mike
you forgot the bit about the congratulations for the work done, but it's a very good translation.
Well, translating is your real job after all smile.gif
Rajaat99
I've read about half and I love it so far. It's wonderful.
Kagetenshi
Having just started it, I do have to say that the straightforward reference to Synner was rather more jarring than I'd initially assumed it would be. On the other hand, for the vast number of non-DSF players, it's a nonissue.

~J
TW
There's not that much said on the german forums about SoE, really. There were some complaints about the maps (some graphic resolutions error occured with the translated version of the book), but in general, few people posted their opinion on the book yet. Oh, yeah, and the AGS chapter of course is nothing but a recap of DidS2 sarcastic.gif ('just kiddin')

@Ceberus Nacht: that is indeed a huge compliment to us authors. Thanx a lot!
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