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Thanos007
Just out of curiosity Crimsondude how many hours did you put into your DC project?

Thanos
Domino
We really don't need new guns. They just need them to fix the old guns. By removing the Integral Gas Vent 2s and laser sights. But we can do that ourselves and with CC we can build any gun we need.
Adam
Quick and dirty decking rules are in Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book - looks like it's really going to hit the spot for you. wink.gif
Domino
QUOTE (Adam)
Quick and dirty decking rules are in Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book - looks like it's really going to hit the spot for you. wink.gif

Excellent.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Thanos007 @ Jul 27 2004, 09:16 PM)
Just out of curiosity Crimsondude how many hours did you put into your DC project?

Thanos

Well, I've tinkered with it many times. The specific post I referred to in the above post from Shadows of DeeCee took me 2 or 3 hours to write from memory of past instances of writing similar descriptions. Altogether I've put in about a man-day's worth of time into it.
Masterofthegame
QUOTE (Adam)
Quick and dirty decking rules are in Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book - looks like it's really going to hit the spot for you. wink.gif

God I love you guys.
Jason Farlander
Oh yeah. I'd like to see more a more functional handling of the B/R skills. So far, we can disassemble maglocks, put together computers, and customize vehicles and guns. How about building electronic devices from scratch. Building/modifying your own cyberware. Making cruise missiles in your garage. Those sorts of things.

...maybe I'm just being needy and uninspired, though. Then again, maybe some people should get over themselves.
lacemaker
Just returning to my proposal for an IT/computer update book for a moment - the idea of including it as a section in a larger work sounds fine, but I think in saying that decker books are not commercially viable you're missing some of the potential of the concept.

In a cyberpunk millieu technology should be pervasive and profoundly affect both the atmosphere and every type of character.

The face should be able to pull up his connection's likes and dislikes from a search of his recent purchases.

The Merc should be running a program that cleans up images in combat and allows him to trace incoming fire back to it's point of origin.

The rigger's van should be out of commission because a viral advertising campaign for a new, nanite based dental treatment has infected its sensors so that they display only a dazzling, white smile.

The sammy should be trying to find someone to hack his RNA to let him squeeze in a little more cyberware, hopefully without rejecting the nanites in his system or developing a vestigial tail. And his cybereyes should be identifying everyone's guns against on online database and informing him when anyone runs out of ammo.

And the cocktail waiter should be rigged to his bar, your sloppee soy should identify you by name and suggest other great products on special in the area, and the air in the shopping mall ought to be pumped full of "smart dust" sensors that can spot the diseased or those with poor credit ratings, until your decker hacks them to find Mr Johnson and figure out where he buys his suits.

So of that's probably too high tech/cheesy for what you want in an SR campaign, but those kinds of influences ought to be present, if only to make their absence from the lives of the have-nots all the more stark. At the moment we have "printers are very cheap, and small" and I just think that the flavour technology can provide is almost completely absent.

mfb
SR isn't advanced enough for that sort of thing. people are still uncomfortable with chrome--i agree, that sort of thing is really cool, but it'll take another half-century or more for things to reach that point in SR.
lacemaker
In terms of level of technology, very little of it is more than 20 years away from today.

In terms of acceptance, and the "weirdness factor" - again, not a huge leap from Modern and SR concepts. The rigged barman maybe, but computer viruses used for marketing, products that know personal information and talk to you, software that looks up information and then delivers it to you instantaneously - really the only chnages we'd be talking about are in the interface. It's almost all a pretty big step down from getting a plug inserted in your head so you can surf the net faster, which is supposed to be common though not ubiquitous...
KillaJ
Sadly I don't really have anything constructive to add to this discussion but that has never stopped me from chiming in before so here goes nyahnyah.gif, consider me firmly in Lacemaker's camp. I couldn't agree more. Thank you for making that point better than I ever could.
notworthy.gif
Ancient History
If it makes anyone feel better, the novel Shadowplay addressed that the Crash set back tech about 30-40 years.
lacemaker
Even on the very high end of that estimate we're in 2024 (?) right now - let alone the fact that other areas of tech seem to be at around this level. The 30-40 year gap basically just moves us from the realms of unimaginable technology to the kind of things that are at the early development stage right now...

In any case, I'm not really saying the setting logically demands this stuff, just that it is both consistent with the existing backgroung and would add a great new element to the game. As things stand magical is cool and exciting, technology not so much. You fill up on your full complement of cyber/bio, and that's great, but day to day technology doesn't excite you, generate interesting options or provide cool atmosphere the way magic does...

This is getting kinda OT - maybe I'll start a thread at some point to discuss it properly.
Lucyfersam
I could not agree more with the concept of a Target: Astral Planes book, I love the astral planes and have spent a lot of time fleshing them out for myself, it would be great to have greater cannon recourses for this as well.

I also strongly agree with making the world significantly grittier, with bloodier, meaner fighting at all levels. Add some really frightening stuff at street level, that might challenge an average shadowrunner, not things that want to take over the world, just urban predators that even the strongest on the street fear (be they cyber-zombies gone mad, like the johnny mnemonic street preacher, or powerful critters with a taste for flesh).

I really like the new organized crime stuff in SoE, the current status quo in UCAS organized crime just hasn't sat well with me.

On the uber level of the mega corps and dragons, I am anxiously awaiting Lofwyr and S-K being layed low by someone. He has had too much dominance for too long, and represents an unwanted stability at the top of the world that nothing and no one can touch. Other forces are beginning to make small inroads, but anytime any other force has crossed Lofwyr he wipes the wall with them, even if they are another GD. I would like to see him reduced down to the power level of the rest of the extreme top so he really has to fight constantly for his position.

I like the fact that the IEs insta-empires are crumbling around them, there are consequences for trying to grab too much power too quickly, and they are realizing it.

I also think that the way things stand, there are a lot of people who should be stepping on toes that aren't. To many people seem like they should be plotting against each other that aren't. I know some people don't like the IE plotlines, but they are a part of the history, and it seems weird not having their plots really interfering with the dragons or the corps, or other powerful magical groups interfering a lot with the lot of them (although I was glad to see the Black Lodge making an important power play in SoE, it is more stuff like that I'd like to see.)

Fleshing out the world is good, and I've greatly appreciated the Shadows and Target: books, but I agree with the people who ask for more of the metaplot covered in those books, which newer books have been better about in some places, but left huge parts of it untouched.

Overall I've been pleased with the recent additions to the product line, they have enough that I can easily add my own modifications to make things grittier with more convoluted plots. I would definitely be sad if the Shadows books didn't finish out the rest of the world, but a few changes to their tone could make them even better.
tjn
CD, I had a big long post responding to your own big long post attacking my opinion.

But then I realized we were getting off topic. We've both stated our opinions for Synner, and any further debate in the thread would not be condusive to Synner's goal. If you wish to continue this, my personal box is always open.

However, I do want to leave you with this should it not be continued: never assume the reader can read the author's mind.

EDIT: Speeling and to say lacemaker hit the nail much better then I could in regards to technology.
Synner
Thank you, tnj, I appreciate it.

Apparently (and yes, this is skewed by the fact that this is the Dumpshock Forums) Crimsondude is in the vast minority in his opinions regarding a number of issues, but nevertheless he's entitled to them.

Crimsondude - I'd just like to point out that your type of post is by far the most unconstructive we've seen yet. Yet again you've taken the time to write down your opinions on how the existing material is flawed, how everybody else has it wrong (FanPro, the freelancers and the fans here apparently) and then reserved a few undetailed suggestions for the final 1/10 of your post. In fact your suggestions are themselves as vague as the stuff you've been criticizing. I specifically asked for constructive criticism - which emplies offering a, well, constructive opinion -ie. something to build on proposing alternatives and other approaches rather than just pointing to the negatives which are entirely subjective to begin with.

Let's take a look:
QUOTE
Better rules. But I don't see that happening, especially with the investment made into CC, M&M and MitS. Meh.
Very true. Except of course there are constant errata coming out on specific broken rules rather than potentially commercially unvialble (and wholy unnecessary) books.

QUOTE
More events. Big events, little events. Random references to things. News. Information. Books that are not about the effing great dragons would be nice
So something like SoE qualifies then? It's full of "big and little events, random references to things, News, information." If not, why not? If you're going to make a point be constructive and explain yourself.

QUOTE
SOTA is a good idea, in theory. Highlight the trends, major events, random thought on what's happening around Seattle or the world. Nothing that would take longer to read than your average Headline News story (about 1.5 min, or 1.5 pages of text).

Once again this isn't constructive. You like? You dislike? What do you like? And what do you dislike about it? SOTA is concieved to introduce new rules and relevant contextual background (and despite your arguments, I have absolutely no doubt that most players prefer it that way), that's it's particular format and the 63 version sold particularly well. This year SOTA adds spies, euromagical traditions, adepts, law enforcement and the returning culture shock with all the relevant toys and rules. 5 rules plug-ins every year seems cool to me as opposed to buying "all-new" 3.5 corebooks, and to me sounds much more of an appropriate

As Adam has pointed out above, Mr JLBB will probably be right up your street (and Skeptical's) too with generic stats and lots of system crunchiness for you. Simplified mechanics, contacts, locations, etc.

In fact from what I've seen of the upcoming books there's a bit for everyone who's been posting on this thread.

QUOTE
I guess places might be useful, but frankly if all we got were descriptions of cities as vapid and useless as we did in SoNA (esp. the UCAS chapter) then forget it.

What you're complaining about being non-essencial is what every new player (and there's quite a few these days) who doesn't have all those 1st edition references wants to know. On the other hand single country/location books have sold notoriously badly compared to Shadows of X and Target X style books.

QUOTE
Frankly, I can't think of much I want to see from FanPro anymore that I can't just do myself. A simple "what's up" would suffice at this point.

Not so much for you personally, but for everyone checking on this thread. Always keep in mind, FanPro is a game company trying to make a living. As any such company, FanPro needs to put out books on a regular basis to continue to exist and those books need to be "interesting enough" to sell in today's brutal and difficult RPG market. 4-5 books is good, one metaplot campaign and one rules update book a year is not going to cut it if Shadowrun is to continue on the market (basically because adventures/campaigns aren't selling crap these days and who really wants another Man&Machine or Cannon Companion when something like SOTA updates both?)

MrSandman666
Ok, so I haven't had the time to read the whole thread, shame on me... Maybe I'll catch up one day. Maybe.

Yet, I can't resist adding my 0.2€ here. And before I start my little rant I have to say that I'm fully aware that the changes I'm proposing may be too radical. I'm aware that it may be too late to turn back. This may turn into a rant but I'll try to stay as constructive as possible. But you asked what we wanted so here goes...

I want a 4th Edition. My 3rd Edition books are falling apart... seriously though, fourth edition would be a blessing. It's needed to set things straight. I want a darker, grittier, more realistic image. The art presented by Apathy in the beginning of this thread is a good example. I also like the cover art of Survival of the Fittest. This is what conveys the right mood for me.
Another major point for 4th Ed.: simplify, simplify, simplify! The rules for combat (mainly shotguns and grenades), healing, rigging, magic and decking have become ridiculously complicated. Granted, progress has been made in 3rd Ed. Deckers are actually playable now. Still it's a hassle to look up the right operations with the right utilities every time my decker breaks into a system. A unified gaming mechanic would be a good idea. In over 5 years of playing shadowrun I've never understood matrix combat. Rigging just knocks me out. The complexity of the rigging rules has led me to flat out prohibiting riggers in my games. Magic has been getting better, too, but it's still pretty overwhelming how complex it is to simply cast a spell. I recently tried to explain all the different types of foci to a newbie and gave up at the point where I was more confused than he was. Conclusion: we need class, not mass, like my former art teacher used to say. Make less things but make them good. It just hapens way too often that I am asked "What is the difference between these two guns" and I have to say "I frankly don't have a clue - I think this one has 1 point of built in RC". I don't need 50+ totems. I don't need over 20 heavy pistols. I don't need 15 different types of ammo. And I don't need a huge metaplot somewhere up there that my players are only going to experience through the news (if at all) because they will NEVER be good enough to play with the big boys.
Wich leads me to my next point: tone it down! Year of the Comet, while having some very good aspects (Shedim, for example, or the probe race) was just over the top. I mean, SURGE? People growing tails and fluffy ears??? And a huge chapter about the power stuggle in Japans royal family...
What I want settings wise: more campaigns that are actually realistic (and, as someone already stated, less rigid). If there are campaigns that I can throw normal runners into with a good conscience I'll buy them. Something that is NOT epical and world changing for once... something not involving great dragons, mega-corporate CEOs or godly AIs. Do a campaign about a gang war, for example, or even a mob war. Two mafia families battling each other at a relatively low level (limited to one or two cities). Run a small time espionage campaign, where all the influence of the players amounts to whether a few people get fired and who gets this new product out. Give me some sourcebooks about the daily life of the runners. New Seattle was good, SSG was good. YotC was a cool idea but there was hardly anything in there that was actually relevant to my games. Something about Lone Star and the Media would be great!
And all this cool detail about metavariants, albinos and ghouls just seems a bit too over-the-top to me. I know, it's been said before plenty of times but I still believe it serves as a good example of the direction I don't want Shadowrun to take.

This next idea might single me out a bit. I feel kinda odd about technological advancement. Sure, it would be realistic but there is the danger of turning Shadowrun into a happy SciFi game. If there is new technology, it has to be carefully given the correct image. As long as it looks dirty and dangerous and abusable it's fine. Nanocutters are a good example. Plus, more technology takes the focus away from the story and the people in the story and reduces the game more to a "what is the right toy to counter this gadget".
And I wouldn't feel too sorry if magic was toned down a good bit. Magic is a cool idea but as it is right now, magic is too powerfull. I personally (from a GMs point of view) hate the astral space. It's too damn usefull! I know it can't be completely thrown away. It's too late for that. But can't it be limited a bit?

So, to sum up this little rant of mine: Simplify the rules, make the mood dirtier and darker, less toys and more "unique" toys, less "exotics" (like metavariants) and more elaborate details on "normal things" (LoneStar, the media, hopsitals, streetlife, etc), less epic metaplot, less dragons, less immortal elves, toned-down magic...
Do you notice a trend? I really wouldn't add much to Shadowrun. I feel there's been added way too much already. Instead I would remove things. I would shift the focus from epical to more street level. Get the usual criminal runner back into focus. Take away all that glitter. Take away the complexity.

Somehow I'm still not satisfied with what I wrote, I don't think my message comes across clearly enough but before I annoy you even more with my ranting I'll better stop.
In any case I'm more than willing and able to elaborate and discuss all of the above.

I hope some of this makes it from the draftboard into reality. And if you need and 4th Ed. Developers, let me know wink.gif
Cheers.
Kagetenshi
Let me log a vote against unifying the rulesets. I like my magic working differently from my rigging, which in turn works differently from my decking. At the least, it provides a diversity of specialty amongst SR players. Simplify? To a degree. Explain? Hell yes. Unify? I'll pass, please.

And SURGE was about people growing gills or scales or purple skin and then getting fired/killed, not growing fluffy tails. It needs a flavor overhaul, certainly, but the idea isn't bad.

~J
the_dunner
How 'bout Shadowrun UPDATE eek.gif

I've been out of touch with the Shadowrun product line for several years, and I'm re-emersing myself now. Trying to catch up on all the plot lines since the start of second edition is a bit overwhelming. (Especially when many of the books detailing these plot lines are not readily available.)

A book (or even a .pdf) which dedicated a chapter to each of the metaplots and their current status would be a tremendous asset. Even a page of background info with a (see THIS BOOK for more info) would be cool.

For somebody who's not up to date, jumping into the deep end is a bit overwhelming right now. A product like this (especially a PDF) would make the game much more accessible to new players, and would be a handy reference for veterans.
L.D
Cool!

*points up one post*

What he said!

... although... doesn't Ancient Historys site cover that pretty well?
Dark father
With all the rules existing, being a Shadowrun GM is getting harder than ever. I find it harder to learn and remember all the rules than to study for my university courses. In my current game I have a decker who wanted to fully use all the rules using SR3 and Matrix. I had to read and read again all of it, but I really master the rules now. But what if a player wanted to do the same with rigging rules? I don't think I would be able to know by heart these 2 complex aspects of Shadowrun. More options might be ok, but the rules are becoming so heavy to learn that mastering Shadowrun is getting out of hand. And yes some will say that all the rules are optional, but when one of my players spend more than 30$ for a book that will help him deepen his character, I don't want to tell him to forget that because it's getting too complicated for me.

That's why I love the idea of getting back to basics. Commercially speaking I admit that it must be difficult for Fanpro to figure what book would be the best to publish. With the last 2 books, I think they done it well. With SSG, they fleshed out the world. With SoE, we get elements to help design games in unusual places. And the Mr J LBB, it's another tool given to masters to help them flesh out their games. And I like that. Stop shoving heavy stuff into our throats, Shadowrun needs to return to it's basics. And I congratulate Fanpro for creating Shadowrun Missions. This is the Shadowrun I like : events on the street level that have an impact on the big world.
nezumi
QUOTE (tjn)
I think a sourcebook on Artifacts and Ancient History would be nice...

If AH gets a book, I'd like a book too please. Or at least a book of Siege's puns.

I think one thing people need to keep in mind is the vast majority of the people posting in this thread have tons of experience. Crimson Dude had his long post on how he writes all his own stuff, which is great if you know the world that well. We need to keep in mind there are a lot LOT of players and GMs who actually aren't into shadowrun enough to log onto a dedicated forum every day. In fact, if I were to guess, I'd say we're outnumbered by them. So anything we put on our wishlists, we need to make sure can also be used by people who aren't quite so skilled, don't have all the books and are still figuring stuff out.

I do agree with Lace's post early about the pervasiveness of tech. I've been thinking of running an SR game where the problem isn't just the corps denying people the right to happiness, but the right to privacy. I think that's a lot more realistic, and perhaps a lot more scary now, given everything that's going on in 2004. It would certainly inspire me to be more of a rebel.
Thanos007
QUOTE
As things stand magical is cool and exciting, technology not so much. You fill up on your full complement of cyber/bio, and that's great, but day to day technology doesn't excite you, generate interesting options or provide cool atmosphere the way magic does...

This is getting kinda OT - maybe I'll start a thread at some point to discuss it properly


No it is on topic. It has to do with what people want in Shadowrun. And, this thread aside, it touches on one of the major points of contention. Atmosphere. For all the debates over wether SR has lost it's edgienes I'm suprised it hasn't played a major part in this topic. We get 5 page rants about rules and bs and then one sentence that says," oh yeah. make it more gritty." Yeesshh!

Thanos
Dashifen
Don't know if I'll be able to explain this well, but my thoughts are this: better examples -- longer examples perhpas?

Take, for instance, the Idiot's Guide to the Matrix Thread. Granted, I've been involved with that thread so I'm a little biased, but in that thread Synner and I (and the others who have run deckers within it -- sorry, I misremember you at the moment, but you get credit, too) have received many thanks for what is essentially a long, drawn out example.

Not sure what you can take away from this but I think that many people can learn vicariously through examples. People complain that rigging is too hard, or decking takes too many rolls, whatever but what their really saying is that I don't understand the rules yet. Big problem I see is that to add better, longer, in-depth examples would hideously increase the words in the books thereby costing more. But, perhaps this would be something that could be come a website feature?
Garland
To build on what Dashifen said, a slim book describing a run both narratively and from a rules perspective might be nice. A nice, complex run involving the face doing legwork, mage projecting and summoning, rigger subverting drones, decker gathering info and undoing locks, sammy blowing away guards when the alarm goes off, etc.

Essential a long, unified string of examples to cover most situations.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 28 2004, 06:09 AM)
Let me log a vote against unifying the rulesets. I like my magic working differently from my rigging, which in turn works differently from my decking. At the least, it provides a diversity of specialty amongst SR players. Simplify? To a degree. Explain? Hell yes. Unify? I'll pass, please.

Ditto. It's one of the aspects about Shadowrun that keeps the game interesting. Normally play a magician, but you're getting bored with doing the same things all the time? Switch to a decker and try a completely different game within the same game. Get bored with that and want something fresh? Play a rigger. etc. It's so completely cool.
mfb
i'd like the rulesets to at least be internally consistent, though, with a minimum of reworking as new material comes out. for instance, we're still wading through the hip-deep pile of worms that got slathered around when they opened the "cyberlimb armor" can.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (Thanos007)
No it is on topic. It has to do with what people want in Shadowrun. And, this thread aside, it touches on one of the major points of contention. Atmosphere. For all the debates over wether SR has lost it's edgienes I'm suprised it hasn't played a major part in this topic. We get 5 page rants about rules and bs and then one sentence that says," oh yeah. make it more gritty." Yeesshh!

For myself, grittier doesn't mean more deadly, or constantly having to worry about where you're living that night. I'd like a world where Shadowrunners can actually exist in some kind of numbers.

The Punk has died in Shadowrun for me. Oh sure there's oppresiveness, but it comes more with actual ability. If there's a strong government, and a strong police force, then Shadowrunners are at best organized crime, at worst they're terrorists.
If the police are able to link all your crimes togethor, and some of your crimes can get VERY high profile smile.gif, then it hurts believability that DNA samples haven't put the runners in jail.

If there are camera's on every street corner, and drones log the license numbers of every vehicle, and cops will stop anyone that has a blocked license number, it makes it hard to believe that you can escape.

Sure, you can steal a car for every run, but that gets more into the aspect of Shadowrunners vs Criminals. When the corp's are extraterritorial, and don't share info, when the cops are corrupt and uncaring and lazy, it's easy to break into one corp in the employ of another corp and get away with it. (So long as you're not tooo stupid during the run.)

So, when I want a darker, grittier shadowrun, I want a world system that's floundered and doesn't work efficiently.

For types of books I want or ways I would like the books better;
1) equipment books that have new stuff, not "better" stuff. And I'd prefer if that stuff was useful to a group of Shadowrunners, perhaps equipment geared towards breaking into buildings. Security stuff is fine, as long as it's not impossible to work around.
2) a world book with a brief description of major and a some minor, yet interesting, places.I don't want intricate histories and descriptions of people in charge that the runners will never meet. Mentioning off hand who's in charge and a rumor or two of common knowledge is good, but nothing intricate that takes up pages for little value to the actual game.
3) I'd like the format to return to a commercial product with shadowtalk, rather than the current "essays by shadowrunners". I'd prefer that the shadowtalk actually be interesting and varied, rather than the current stuff, that basically reinforces what is said, or presents something so different than the text that it's useless.
4) I'd like more information in integrating the shadowrun archtypes into a team, I don't need their rules integrated, so much as the IC methods of working togethor and making them all useful members of a team.
5) cut back on some of the really oddball stuff. SURGE was so-so, no need to escalate it any further.
6) accurate release dates would probably be the holy grail.
7) I want the game to focus more on a small scale, things and places useful to a group of shadowrunners. I'd also like more of an emphasis on karma advancements, rather than items gained with wealth.

More when I remember it. (have a head cold, kind of light headed)
kevyn668
On "varied shadow talk":

I thought some of the most interesting ST was found in the PAoNA and PAoE. You'd have various lines about which corp uses what critter and the how some guy can prepare any critter so it tastes great every time or some such (the Greater Armidillo used as a salad bowl was a fav) and then there was that poor slot (Bung?) that everywhere he went on vacation, some nasty local monster appeared and ate his friends.

Great stuff! smile.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
I know my world very well because I created it myself, usually out of necessity (The NAGNA chapter on DeeCee wasn't cutting it, for example).

I guess I can just reiterate, I would like books with a lot of random information.

Other than that, I guess I just don't see the need for FanPro anymore.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)
I know my world very well because I created it myself, usually out of necessity (The NAGNA chapter on DeeCee wasn't cutting it, for example).

I guess I can just reiterate, I would like books with a lot of random information.

Other than that, I guess I just don't see the need for FanPro anymore.

I really can not think of a single reason as to why you would bother wasting your time posting that. It is in no way informative or condusive to discussion. Well, at least now I know to not bother read what you have to say in the future, so I guess thanks for saving me some time down the road.
Odin
I think a book detailing adepts and street samurai would be good the thing is most adepts are portrayed in a distinctly eastern archetype and I would prefer to see a few different cultural variants of the adept also I don't think it's ever been explained properly how or why some gutter streetpunk manages to get a million nuyen worth of cybernetics. I'd also like to see some more divergent abilities between the adept and street samurai I'm tired of seeing a cyber and adept ability of the same thing. I think a sort of composite sourcebook a sort of PhysAd Vs. Street Samurai book would probably be pretty popular considering almost everyone I know has played one or the other. I suggest "Way of the Warrior" as the title.
lacemaker
I love examples. There's no better way to both explain the game and inspire you to play it than cool examples of mechanics in play. The idiot's guide to the matrix is fantastic and adds more value than pages of optional rules could.

Now, if people are happy for me to keep rattling on about tech, then I'll throw out a few more ideas:

First, I accept that there is a danger of corrupting the Shadowrun flavour by making the world too high tech. No only can it be antithetical to "grit", but it can make the world seem too distant and unreal. Even technology that is "realistic" by today's standards can destroy the game's verisimilitude - it's appearance of realism. As an example, a lot of the trends introduced in Neal Stephenson's Snowcrash and the Diamond Age are feasible in a technical sense but none-the-less make the world seem a little too alien. So anything you introduce has to be checked not just for realism but also for tone.

Second, there is a danger that too much tech makes the world too ordered, and consequence-filled. The chaos of the cyberpunk milieu makes the kind of stuff shadowrunners do possible and/or more fun. If every action has to be meticulously planned to remove evidence and beat pervasive security then the game becomes too technical and looses its spontaneity.

I think you get around that by making the kinds of high(er) tech I'm talking about available but not pervasive, significant but unreliable. This stuff should have the feel of being on the cutting edge, and of being manufactured by people who haven't considered, or who don't care about the consequences. New tech should go rogue, malfunction or be misused or ignored by its human handlers. It should also not extend everywhere, but should be used to draw out the contrast between the different classes in society. The cup in the corporate snackbar provides you with nutritional information and re-heats your coffee for you, the one from the urban corner store loops the same snippet of advertising over and over again and leaches organophosphates into your drink.

What do I want to see in a book:

Lifestyle passages about living with tech. If nothing else we need a better idea of what corps actually do. The prototype you're stealing, and to some extent the entire matrix are usually just macguffins, they don't have a believable place in the world as a whole. If we understand how and why workers use the matrix, how they interact with security, how tech changes their daily lives then the whole world becomes much more real. Have a scientist enthusing about their new projects, or a tech employed talking about the skills needed to maintain it's infrastructure, and what happens when it breaks down, even a day in the life of an office drone (though obviously something pretty brief). I'm thinking along the lines of the flavour stuff provided by Awakenings - or even the passages from Cybertechnology, but focussing less on shadowrunning gear and more on non-biz stuff.

Expanded B/R rules to make a tech a playable archetype, as opposed to just a sideline for a rigger or decker to maintain their equipment. Computing/tech savvy characters should be able to make useful stuff, but more importantly should be able to interact with almost every device they encounter in-game.

Expanded rules for chipware. Not only should there be many more types and cool effects (you have a computer that can send instructions to your brain and body. You'll be able to do a lot better than just simulating skills and speaking languages - loved the idea in the new supplemental), but more should be made of the difference between chipped and real skills. Maybe your Estonian language chip has a thick Irish accent because that was the only guy handy to record it. Maybe your police procedures chip has a strong racial bias against Orcs (not my idea but a great one IMO). If everyone is slotting Billy Blanks' - Die Ho rating 3 then you should be able to pick up a few tricks that will let you beat someone slotting it every time. How about a certain phrase which will crash someone's linguasoft, or a back door in someone's demolition chip which will make them your slave when they see a certain configuration of wires. What about viral infection for chips.
Chips could and should be a huge part of the game and it's flavour. You are running programs on your body and brain. As it stands they haven't really advanced far beyond the 1st ed throw-in that they started as.

Expanded everyday roles for Drones and drone networks. These will not be primarily combat or security tools, and the civilian ones really open up the drone rigger/techie character type.

New devices - ideally street samurai cataloge format advertising their release and that shadowtalk commenting on their practical effects. How's the new line of synth flavours that decides what it's going to taste like based on a saved profile of your eating habits- think every flavour beans with all the attendant mishaps. How about the new clinic offering to hack any genetic defects out of your DNA- didn't they turn some guy into goo? Facial recognition software, and how to fool it? Jammers and counterjammers - and what they do to the security drones in the shopping mall.

I guess that'll do for the moment...
Skeptical Clown
Tech, in and of itself, will not damage the grit. The essence of the grittiness is the total breakdown of societal order. As long as the technology is contributing to that breakdown rather than working against it, there's really no problem. Like Voce's examples, if there is too much technology that is easily applicable to preventing crime, like ubiquitous cameras and DNA-sampling, then it's hurting the game. That doesn't mean those technologies don't necessarily exist, but for whatever reason, they are not being used (personally, I tend to think of Lone Star as low-budget rental cops; they are used everywhere because they're cost efficient, and that efficiency comes from cutting corners in technology and wages. Therefore, no serious threat to runners.)
Beast of Revolutions
I'd like to see space travel, at least to Earth orbit, become affordable enough that some high-level shadowruns take place there, like in Neuromancer. I'd like some data from the classified Mars mission to crop up, renewing interest in just why the government classified it all after the astronauts arrived. I'd like to see more magical threats from alternate dimensions like the shedim. Geneware should be made different from bioware, and nanoware and geneware should become more useful. I'd like to see special abilities mages can get, kind of like metamagics, but without initiating. Lastly, I'd like to see a wider range of magical items that do more than just add dice to certain rolls, including magic items usable by mundanes, or at least adepts.
BitBasher
Keep in mind people, this game advances on a year by year basis in real time, we should be expecting to see tech and things advance light years beyond the last SOTA book.
Ancient History
Still waiting for the bloody Matrix monocle.
mfb
actually, i believe it's 1:2 years, now. i think i read that somewhere.
VoceNoctum
QUOTE (mfb)
actually, i believe it's 1:2 years, now. i think i read that somewhere.

Well, keep in mind the release schedule too. Year of the Comet was delayed quite a bit, and didn't sync with their "current year + blah" schedule when it finally reached shelves. I'd rather not have a single book detailing 1-2 years of game time, and not sure the release schedule can be filled with enough books and ideas to make advancing the year worthwhile.
L.D
I thouched on this earlier, but I want to make this clear.

I'm a GM, but I don't have anywhere near the time to spend on being a GM as Crimsondude. I rely on the Seattle sorucebooks to give me a setting to play in and most often on written adventures that I modify slightly so that it fits my world better. SoNA and SoE are great in that way, because they give me settings that I don't have the time to make myself, and I'd love to see more books in that way. And of course more adventures. I like the ones that are completely done (like Brainscan), because they require less work on my part. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only GM who's short on time.
Synner
Regarding the release schedule, I'd just like to reiterate what's been said elsewhere: every effort is being done to get the schedule back to a regular basis and right now there are are about 4 books in final stages of completion. In fact according to the Origins' report you might find 2 more SR books in stores in the next month and a half.

On the subject of the techdebate, I for one believe there's a danger when introducing even the most inocuous stuff to the tech curve. SR's brand of post-cyberpunk does a balancing act but is highly dependent on its dystopian, rampant capitalist universe. Nanotech for instance poses real dangers, since anything beyond the most basic levels represents the beginning of the end of the industrial-capitalist infrastructure (the Diamond Age illustrates this quite well towards the end) which the megacorps are built on. The same could be said with genetech and post-humanism (virtual immortality) as well as other hightech trends (good reference of the risks is Stableford's the Architects of Emortality or Robinson's later Mars trilogy books). This is what makes introducing tech so difficult and risky.

Odin and others - Adepts will be going under the magnifying glass soon (SOTA64) and they'll be getting more than a few twists and mods.

Ancient History- Coming soon to a sourcebook near you...

Crimsondude2.0- Thank you. That was helpful in its own way. It gives those of us making an effort a reference by which to weight your opinions in the future and puts you firmly in a universe of one around here.
Kagetenshi
Care to explicate on the nanotech angle, Synner? I haven't read The Diamond Age.

~J
Synner
Nanotech poses a unique problem in that after the development of the first auto-replicating strains of nanites, assuming a stable source of materials (including high level recycling), the possibility of nanofactories (or "makers" as they're also known in the fiction) becomes very real. Nanofactories require minimal energy (nanites are so small they could sustain themselves on ambient electrostatic power) and will produce just about anything given the right set of "nano-blueprints" and materials. Shadowrun's level of nanotech is treading dangerously close to this level already.

In Diamond Age everybody has an oven-sized maker in their home, they pay a service fee to link to the Feed (which supplies power and the materials for the maker) and what people actually buy (license to be perfectly correct) are the "nano-blueprints" the makers use. The maker has a computer and that is what runs the nanites, the nanites themselves are not specialized and can be used to make a new coat as easily as sheets of paper, a chiprecorder or even a gun - as long as you have the blueprints. Of course, if you know someone who can draw up those blueprints the sky's the limit to what you can make in your basement.

Not to spoil the book put part of the core story is the transition between Feed based nano-systems (which can still be controlled by institutional means and controlling the source) and Seed nano-systems which would allow self replicating and infinitely recycling nanotech without dependence on the Feed (which is controlled by the last megacorps).

Either route represents the end of the current industrial age since industrial capacity becomes irrelevant and the focus of the economy becomes the intellectual property, the patents and designs, and the know-how (think of it as post-Information Age) rather than the ability to mass produce the stuff.

Loads of other things become possible at this tech level (in RPGs Transhuman Space addresses this quite nicely in fact, R. Talosoiran's Cybergeneration is a clear example why/how this technology ruins a perfectly good cyberpunk setting) but essentially the system of old megacorp powerhouses - commerce and industry becomes something completely different - is turned on its head. In a setting like SR it would mean the end of the current status quo and possibly of the cyberpunk aspect for good.
The Question Man
Wow that's a lot of information to absorb and digest properly so one can make an informed and constructive response.

IMOHO the descriptions and comments on coming releases seem to address many comments made by members of this forum. I personally am eager to get my hands Mr.Johnson's Little Black Book, State of the Art:2064, and Running Wild.

A Fourth Edition shadowrun Rules Book would be a boon to new gamers and a benefit to those of us who need to replace our often used and abused Rules book. Several things from the Shadowrun Companion should be transferred too it. Specifically Edges and Flaws, Contact addendums, and Contacts Compiled. What I think should be left out of the SR3 Rules book are the descriptions of the Seattle Metroplex and surrounding regions. Security Systems examples have been covered in SOTA:2063. A clearer separation of the various specialized rules sets (ie; Combat, Magic, Astral Combat, Vehicle Combat Rigging, Drones, HEALING, Spirits, Critters[always hated that term], etc...).

mad.gif Oh and leave out those bloody shiny character examples and use the format you got in the adventure books... PLEASE , PLEASE PLEASE !!! (They always fall out and the art wasn't inspirational to for me or any of my players.

As for the cyberpunk theme comments. I agree. Shadowrun has moved away from it. Unfortunately no two people seem to agree or are able to suggest a solution. Much to my frustration and amusement.

I too want a return of Shadowtalk. I have commented on it before and will probabably do so again. Also Scream Sheets/News Net/ etc... are sadly missing from from todays Shadowrun source books.

Adventures, modules, etc... I really enjoyed the Harlequin, Harlequins Back, and Brain Scan products. Corporate Punishment was a good resource, but the adventures were only so so . Survival of the Fittest provided so little and cost so much. It would have done better as a Novel than as a Adventure serial.

A source book detailing all the current Canon Meta Plots would be awesome, but it better include massive sub plots or Shadowtalk to be any good.

I would like to thank Synner and every forum member. This is what the forums are really for IMOHO. That a making new friends and kibitzing about the game we all enjoy.

Cheers

QM
MYST1C
QUOTE (Synner)
Either route represents the end of the current industrial age since industrial capacity becomes irrelevant and the focus of the economy becomes the intellectual property, the patents and designs, and the know-how (think of it as post-Information Age) rather than the ability to mass produce the stuff.

And thats why in the classic scifi-RPG Traveller nanotech doesn't exist even though the game is set somewhere in the 5th millenium:
Nanotech and the ability to produce anything anywhere would ruin the interstellar trade. The star empires would collapse because individual worlds wouldn't be dependent on each other anymore. Nobody would need and accept a central government located dozens of parsecs away.

An as a consequence the most common campaign types, freelance traders, pirates or mercenaries, wouldn't work anymore.
mfb
yeah. nanotech is very, very dangerous to cyberpunk because, once loosed, it's essentially impossible to bring back under control. i honestly wouldn't be surprised if nanotech, in real life, eliminates things like world hunger and poverty in the next century or so. ...nor would i be honestly surprised if it never got off the ground, and we continued our present course.
Black Isis
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
QUOTE (Leoric @ Jul 27 2004, 11:08 AM)
Why not introducing a "Breaking News" section on every (or not) book, giving informations on the evolutions of plots and timeline ?  cool.gif

While having such a section in *every* book might be a bit extreme, this would certainly be a relevant thing to include in the SOTA books.

It actually isn't that extreme -- most of the 2nd edition sourcebooks had something like this in the "prepages" before the table of contents, showing what had just recently come out and what was in store for the next few releases (as a menu of Shadowland documents) plus 4-6 "blurbs" on current topics of interest displayed as topic lines for SIGs. It wasn't much, but it gave you some idea of what was going on.

Yes, I know I'm about two days behind the curve, but I was dead sick the last two days and I'm trying to catch up. smile.gif
Paul
Let me say that if we decide to go 4th edition I am getting my gun and hunting down The Question Man. biggrin.gif

Honestly 4th Edition strikes me as the last thing I want. A revised version of third edition books with better layout/stream lined layout? Okay! A whole new rule book? Eh...only if there is a pressing reason.

I just don't see any reason right now.
The Question Man
QUOTE (Paul)
Let me say that if we decide to go 4th edition I am getting my gun and hunting down The Question Man. biggrin.gif

Honestly 4th Edition strikes me as the last thing I want. A revised version of third edition books with better layout/stream lined layout? Okay! A whole new rule book? Eh...only if there is a pressing reason.

I just don't see any reason right now.

eek.gif Sorry Chummer, but IMOHO a Shadowrun Rules 3rd Edtion Revised based on what I have seen with other Shadowrun 3rd Edtion Revised Sourcebooks is called for. Opinions may vary. So if your hunting QM. Then bring a Editor instead of a gun and get ready for long hours pouring over text.

<starts investing in a Bullet Proof Vest> rotfl.gif

QM
Lucyfersam
The more I read this thread, and the more I think about it, I begin to really like the idea of a collapsing government. I remember when I originally started playing, the general opinion of the government in Seattle was that it was a joke, barely worth noting. I would like to see this feel come back. To this end I would recommend a much greater focus on life in the barrens type areas in the worldbooks. Some overall info on the cities at large, especially how they interact with the world of the barrens.

As far as ideas for expanding the world of the barrens, some people have mentioned a desire for increased tech skill information, and I think this would go a long way. Add information about tech reclamation, groups in the barrens scavenging the leftover technology from the high class enclaves and rebuilding it into something new. Rules for jury rigged cyberware. For example ,someone looses their arm, and can't find a full cyberlimb anywhere, but can scrounge up the neural interface out of some clinic or a partially crushed cyber arm. They get their local techy to help them put together a functional arm out of the other bits and pieces they find.

Another important part of this would be to give detailed rules for pirate news feeds, and how the corporate or few governmental enclaves deal with it when a group from the barrens scapes together enough broadcasting equipment to cut into major news feed.

There is still a place for high end runners, who the corps can trust to be truly professional and get the job done, so keeping at least a decent amount of information on corporate politics and scheming is also important.
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