Full Version: So what next... in SR
Just Shadows of Asia I would love to see, I like the State of the art source books also
For the Target: Magic book, do you think they could add in information about the more powerful free spirits, especially the ones who are becoming movers and shakers in the sixth world (I'm thinking right now of Buttercup.)
Also, Target: Magic could definatly advance the shedim metaplot a bit further, and talk about just what it's like to have a shedim in habit a body you've just astrally projected out of.
And also, I wonder if Target: Magic could speak more about spirits in general. Does the shaman's view on the world affect how they are created? If you have two shamans and they both summon a hearth spirit, are the summoning the same spirit, two different spirits, a shadow/echo of one spirit, or what? What do spirits look like? How does the rest of the world deal with them? What would be the problems with, say, summoning a sky spirit in the middle of a parking lot or something, how would people view it? Can a free spirit give testamony in a court of law?
As for what I would like:
A city book besides Seattle and Denver. Chicago could use an update, I think, and I'm sure you could find good running in Washington DeeCee, Dallas or Los Angelos (even through the P.C.C. kind of moving in.)
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but a new book on paranormal animals and the paranormal animal hunters. For those of us coming into 3rd edition and not having gone through 2nd and 1st, we have no idea, really, what the animals are like. I'd also like a Target: Wilderness book, that could have details on the new plants (from MitS and M&M) and details on how the worlds ecology has been changed by the mana of everything.
Treasures of the Fifth World - I'd like a book on how artifacts and treasures from our past (the Incas, the ancient greeks and romans, the norse) have been powered up by the jump into the sixth world. I think it'd be really interesting to hear it.
More later as I imagine them.
Also, Target: Magic could definatly advance the shedim metaplot a bit further, and talk about just what it's like to have a shedim in habit a body you've just astrally projected out of.
And also, I wonder if Target: Magic could speak more about spirits in general. Does the shaman's view on the world affect how they are created? If you have two shamans and they both summon a hearth spirit, are the summoning the same spirit, two different spirits, a shadow/echo of one spirit, or what? What do spirits look like? How does the rest of the world deal with them? What would be the problems with, say, summoning a sky spirit in the middle of a parking lot or something, how would people view it? Can a free spirit give testamony in a court of law?
As for what I would like:
A city book besides Seattle and Denver. Chicago could use an update, I think, and I'm sure you could find good running in Washington DeeCee, Dallas or Los Angelos (even through the P.C.C. kind of moving in.)
I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but a new book on paranormal animals and the paranormal animal hunters. For those of us coming into 3rd edition and not having gone through 2nd and 1st, we have no idea, really, what the animals are like. I'd also like a Target: Wilderness book, that could have details on the new plants (from MitS and M&M) and details on how the worlds ecology has been changed by the mana of everything.
Treasures of the Fifth World - I'd like a book on how artifacts and treasures from our past (the Incas, the ancient greeks and romans, the norse) have been powered up by the jump into the sixth world. I think it'd be really interesting to hear it.
More later as I imagine them.
I think big region books are far more important than city books. I mean, fleshing out a city takes time for a GM, but it's doable and the players probably won't notice. Take the flavour of the country, read up on the city at present day, merge the two. But you just can't do that if you don't have the "SR world" update on how things are over there.
You can also theme up cities into differant books like Smuggler's Haven. Instead of making 1 book about 1 city, mke a book about 3 cities. A bit less detail, but should get a wider audience. Something like Street Samurai's Haven, detailing 3 cities where the Street Samurai (the real ones with neo-bushido) culture is strong, or something like that.
Also, after having read some other posts:
Definatly fix cyberlimbs. They are so, so very not worth it right now. SOTA64-5 could introduce a "breakthrough" in cyberware that drastically reduces essence and cost, and make new options for cyberlimbs that simply cannot be reproduce otherwise. You could even make some rules from existing options. A DNIed computer in your cyberlimb should be insanely usefull. How bout a Jammer? P-sec? Just give ideas. It took me forever to see the potential of having devices in your arm.
For the record, I do not like Shedim or SURGEd changelings.
I can write my own adventures, not putting a particular emphasis on those is OK by me, although considering how cool Shockwaves sounds (altough we won't get it), putting out 1 adventure book is ok.
You can also theme up cities into differant books like Smuggler's Haven. Instead of making 1 book about 1 city, mke a book about 3 cities. A bit less detail, but should get a wider audience. Something like Street Samurai's Haven, detailing 3 cities where the Street Samurai (the real ones with neo-bushido) culture is strong, or something like that.
Also, after having read some other posts:
Definatly fix cyberlimbs. They are so, so very not worth it right now. SOTA64-5 could introduce a "breakthrough" in cyberware that drastically reduces essence and cost, and make new options for cyberlimbs that simply cannot be reproduce otherwise. You could even make some rules from existing options. A DNIed computer in your cyberlimb should be insanely usefull. How bout a Jammer? P-sec? Just give ideas. It took me forever to see the potential of having devices in your arm.
For the record, I do not like Shedim or SURGEd changelings.
I can write my own adventures, not putting a particular emphasis on those is OK by me, although considering how cool Shockwaves sounds (altough we won't get it), putting out 1 adventure book is ok.
I'd like to start by saying again how great a job the authors have already done. Shadowrun is such a well built, complete game world. The fact that it's been alive and growing for this long is a real testament to the skill and dedication of the writers and fan base.
I like what YotC was trying to do - give us more options we can put in our game if we want to. I didn't really like the format of the book so much (it could've been faster at points, but I prefer glancing at a chart than reading a paragraph, so it might just be me.) I'm not a fan of what they put in necessarily, but the fact that they added those options was cool.
I'd love to see them do a similar sort of trick with the horrors and space. Obviously, both would still be very small, just an inkling of what's still to come, but if we got ten or twenty pages on each, it would be enough to really start pushing the shadowrun rules into environments the original authors didn't plan on (and thereby give the GMs the flexibility to make some very original campaigns). I'd be more interested in defining rules on how this stuff would work than metaplot stuff, since metaplot wise stuff is still just starting out, but rule wise it would give GMs the freedom to take it and run.
I'd love to see more duality between magic and technology. Magic really has the upper hand right now, so some more power to the cyber types. I don't know if I'm more interested in seeing magic competing more with cyberware, or integrating better with it, but I want to see more of a relationship between the two.
I'd like to see a lot of the stuff from the first edition be phased out. After all, wired reflexes is now 13 years old. How is it STILL so expensive and such dominate technology? Begin decreasing the cost of alpha and the like as technology gets better, so all of a sudden wired 3 isn't so cool as people start walking around with MBW systems (that'll give those mages a run for their money).
I'd also like to see a lot more expensive non-cyber, non-magic pieces of equipment. Give the Face something she can buy that costs $500k, but lets her seriously compete with the mage. Give the thief a piece of uber gear he can buy that'll give him something to strive for, rather than more expensive combat oriented ware.
I like the idea of politics becoming more complex and opaque, of making the runners feel smaller and more lost in this dynamic world. I like the idea of more unhappiness, of the world getting darker again. In the 50's things were good and depressing. Maybe they got happier when they saw 'cartoony' art. I don't know.
I like what YotC was trying to do - give us more options we can put in our game if we want to. I didn't really like the format of the book so much (it could've been faster at points, but I prefer glancing at a chart than reading a paragraph, so it might just be me.) I'm not a fan of what they put in necessarily, but the fact that they added those options was cool.
I'd love to see them do a similar sort of trick with the horrors and space. Obviously, both would still be very small, just an inkling of what's still to come, but if we got ten or twenty pages on each, it would be enough to really start pushing the shadowrun rules into environments the original authors didn't plan on (and thereby give the GMs the flexibility to make some very original campaigns). I'd be more interested in defining rules on how this stuff would work than metaplot stuff, since metaplot wise stuff is still just starting out, but rule wise it would give GMs the freedom to take it and run.
I'd love to see more duality between magic and technology. Magic really has the upper hand right now, so some more power to the cyber types. I don't know if I'm more interested in seeing magic competing more with cyberware, or integrating better with it, but I want to see more of a relationship between the two.
I'd like to see a lot of the stuff from the first edition be phased out. After all, wired reflexes is now 13 years old. How is it STILL so expensive and such dominate technology? Begin decreasing the cost of alpha and the like as technology gets better, so all of a sudden wired 3 isn't so cool as people start walking around with MBW systems (that'll give those mages a run for their money).
I'd also like to see a lot more expensive non-cyber, non-magic pieces of equipment. Give the Face something she can buy that costs $500k, but lets her seriously compete with the mage. Give the thief a piece of uber gear he can buy that'll give him something to strive for, rather than more expensive combat oriented ware.
I like the idea of politics becoming more complex and opaque, of making the runners feel smaller and more lost in this dynamic world. I like the idea of more unhappiness, of the world getting darker again. In the 50's things were good and depressing. Maybe they got happier when they saw 'cartoony' art. I don't know.
I think that the SOTA format is just very good: It adds Background info, new toys, new rules, on differents subjects that don't justify a book (ie mercenaries, corporate security, or Genetech 
).
For location books, I think that something beetween Shadow of X and Target X would be perfect. In fact these two formats are right.
There is a great lack of day-to-day stuff in SR. Of course, the SSG added a lot, but not enough IMHO.
I agree with the "more goverenmental plots".
But the thing I am the most missing: There are many big plots that are developped on a regular basis. But once they are introduced, there no more info on it. IE Dunky, Renraku archology, Saito, shedims, pyramids on Mars, and a lot of plots...
Why not introducing a "Breaking News" section on every (or not) book, giving informations on the evolutions of plots and timeline ?
). For location books, I think that something beetween Shadow of X and Target X would be perfect. In fact these two formats are right.
There is a great lack of day-to-day stuff in SR. Of course, the SSG added a lot, but not enough IMHO.
I agree with the "more goverenmental plots".
But the thing I am the most missing: There are many big plots that are developped on a regular basis. But once they are introduced, there no more info on it. IE Dunky, Renraku archology, Saito, shedims, pyramids on Mars, and a lot of plots...
Why not introducing a "Breaking News" section on every (or not) book, giving informations on the evolutions of plots and timeline ?
| QUOTE (Leoric) |
| Why not introducing a "Breaking News" section on every (or not) book, giving informations on the evolutions of plots and timeline ? |
While having such a section in *every* book might be a bit extreme, this would certainly be a relevant thing to include in the SOTA books.
My problem with the "Regional" books is that often, they don't give me much information that a brief glance in an encyclopedia would give me. France, Austra, England, etc., aren't radically changed from the modern day. Just more "Shadowruny". SoNA was at least a little useful because most of the nations described there don't actually exist today. But if I can get the same idea from the local library and just inject Shadowrun, why do I need a thirty dollar book? That's probably the worst feeling I get out of a book... that I didn't need it and can't use it.
Compounding that is that there is there is really a glut of general information about dozens of nations, but no particularlly compelling or deep coverage of any of them. Trying to cover all bases might seem more economically viable (If you can give everyone a LITTLE bit about everywhere, you're more likely to sell than if you give good information on just one or a couple places, I guess), but I have to think it will backfire in the long run. Cause if we just get glutted with places, who the heck can use them all? I use globe-trotting all the time in my campaign, and I still haven't used half the locations that have been detailed. I'll probably NEVER use many of them. So at some point, why should I pay for even more? Then at some point, you run out of places to detail. Then what?
Compounding that is that there is there is really a glut of general information about dozens of nations, but no particularlly compelling or deep coverage of any of them. Trying to cover all bases might seem more economically viable (If you can give everyone a LITTLE bit about everywhere, you're more likely to sell than if you give good information on just one or a couple places, I guess), but I have to think it will backfire in the long run. Cause if we just get glutted with places, who the heck can use them all? I use globe-trotting all the time in my campaign, and I still haven't used half the locations that have been detailed. I'll probably NEVER use many of them. So at some point, why should I pay for even more? Then at some point, you run out of places to detail. Then what?
I agree with Clown. I'll buy SoE to support the brand, but if I'm basing all my games in Seattle, I don't get that much value in a regional book for Europe, or any other continent. Of course, since most of the SR fans are in Europe, I may be inadvertantly argueing against any future modules set in North America...
Instead, I'd like more detail and flavor for the place I run my games. maps, building schematics. Security plans. Flavor text.
I would love to buy a copy of the building layout of the Arc. Just what was there 'pre-Deus', and I'd add whatever modifications the AI made, and populate it as I saw fit. It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to build a monstrosity like that from scratch. (I know, it'd take up a whole book by itself, but still...)
Instead, I'd like more detail and flavor for the place I run my games. maps, building schematics. Security plans. Flavor text.
I would love to buy a copy of the building layout of the Arc. Just what was there 'pre-Deus', and I'd add whatever modifications the AI made, and populate it as I saw fit. It'd be a lot easier if I didn't have to build a monstrosity like that from scratch. (I know, it'd take up a whole book by itself, but still...)
First, I'd like to see some of the lesser known areas filled out. For example, there are still some debate about what the countries look like south of Amazonia. Asia also remains a massive mystery for most of the region. For example I know that Manchuria is an awakened nation, and that it refused the corporate accords. But I know nothing else.
Finally I would like to see an update to the major megaplot lines.
1: The shadowwar against Saeder Krupp
2: The Middle East situation
3: The Shedim threat. Is it more dangerous and organized than it appears?
4: The Saito California Protectorate
5: Does Ghostwalker have a master plan?
6: Tsimshian-Salish War Update.
7: Aztlan Yucatan War. Is this only the beginning of a major conflict?
I'd also like some information on what's happening on the other side of the pond to be posted on the Shadowrun website. Nothing that specific, but it kind of bugs that something major went down with Proteus and the english speakers are still clueless about what was left standing when the dust settled. ( A situation I suspect will get worse if the rumored German-only Target:AGS is published. )
Finally I would like to see an update to the major megaplot lines.
1: The shadowwar against Saeder Krupp
2: The Middle East situation
[ Spoiler ]
3: The Shedim threat. Is it more dangerous and organized than it appears?
4: The Saito California Protectorate
5: Does Ghostwalker have a master plan?
6: Tsimshian-Salish War Update.
7: Aztlan Yucatan War. Is this only the beginning of a major conflict?
I'd also like some information on what's happening on the other side of the pond to be posted on the Shadowrun website. Nothing that specific, but it kind of bugs that something major went down with Proteus and the english speakers are still clueless about what was left standing when the dust settled. ( A situation I suspect will get worse if the rumored German-only Target:AGS is published. )
Regarding book format I like the Shadows of X and SOTA:X formats. I'm really looking forward to Shadows of Asia.
Adventure/plot wise I like a "gritty" feel... but I also think players need the ability to act heroicly. We need adventures/plots where there players can "win", but still maintain the grit. Such as, "Yeah, you took down the lieutenant, amazing job guys... but the big boss got off scott free again." In this sense I really, really, really hate Lofwyr. His reputation for viscious revenge for the slightest of setbacks makes players way too hesitant to act against him. I would much prefer a boss that only "gets personal" if you attack him directly.
Meta-plot there are two things I would like to see.
1. Some corp trying to execute a "hostile takeover" of a metaplane. They've had a few years head start there before the "relatively" easy method of traveling to/from the plan is leaked to MagicNet.
2. I would love to see the IEs/Dragons get there butts handed to them. I really like the hint of the idea from Shadows of Europe for Tír na nÓg that the ancients moved too fast and too recklessly trying to build their power and have triggered a huge magical backlash... not one that screws the world so much as one that is (mostly) focused on them. They are still way, way above any player in power... but they are no longer get their way in everything. You can then have a whole campain plot line built around the other powers of the world gradually figuring this out and the ensuing scramble to grab power or break free of their influence while they are distracted.
Pel
Adventure/plot wise I like a "gritty" feel... but I also think players need the ability to act heroicly. We need adventures/plots where there players can "win", but still maintain the grit. Such as, "Yeah, you took down the lieutenant, amazing job guys... but the big boss got off scott free again." In this sense I really, really, really hate Lofwyr. His reputation for viscious revenge for the slightest of setbacks makes players way too hesitant to act against him. I would much prefer a boss that only "gets personal" if you attack him directly.
Meta-plot there are two things I would like to see.
1. Some corp trying to execute a "hostile takeover" of a metaplane. They've had a few years head start there before the "relatively" easy method of traveling to/from the plan is leaked to MagicNet.
2. I would love to see the IEs/Dragons get there butts handed to them. I really like the hint of the idea from Shadows of Europe for Tír na nÓg that the ancients moved too fast and too recklessly trying to build their power and have triggered a huge magical backlash... not one that screws the world so much as one that is (mostly) focused on them. They are still way, way above any player in power... but they are no longer get their way in everything. You can then have a whole campain plot line built around the other powers of the world gradually figuring this out and the ensuing scramble to grab power or break free of their influence while they are distracted.
Pel
| QUOTE |
| 2. I would love to see the IEs/Dragons get there butts handed to them. I really like the hint of the idea from Shadows of Europe for Tír na nÓg that the ancients moved too fast and too recklessly trying to build their power and have triggered a huge magical backlash... not one that screws the world so much as one that is (mostly) focused on them. They are still way, way above any player in power... but they are no longer get their way in everything. You can then have a whole campain plot line built around the other powers of the world gradually figuring this out and the ensuing scramble to grab power or break free of their influence while they are distracted. |
To take this thread wildly off topic... The IEs and Dragons can't really get their butts handed to them or in 10,000 years we're in a lot of trouble. Most, but not all, their power plays seem to be getting everyone ready to fight the Horrors. I think this is especially born out in DotSW.
Back on topic. Adventure books. Yeah I suppose you could make more but why would you want too.
The two Target books I have were pretty much a wast of money. Haven't read the Shadows of X books yet. Judging from the posts it looks like most people want some sort of middle ground between the Target X and Shadows of X books. This is going to be a tough nut to crack. Juggling what the existing fans want, what won't turn off new fans and what is commercially viable. Hope this thread helps.
Thanos
others have mentioned a change i'd like to see in future location books: assume that the reader is intelligent enough to go google basic stuff for himself. a little bit of help in the basic info department is okay, but dedicate a larger percentage of the wordcount to what's going on, as opposed to what has already happened. use events to portray what's changed, instead of simply telling the reader straight out--that lets you stuff more plot hooks and cool ideas into your text, rather than dedicating most of your wordcount to setting the scene.
| QUOTE (Ditaki) |
| I'd also like a Target: Wilderness book, that could have details on the new plants (from MitS and M&M) and details on how the worlds ecology has been changed by the mana of everything. Treasures of the Fifth World - I'd like a book on how artifacts and treasures from our past (the Incas, the ancient greeks and romans, the norse) have been powered up by the jump into the sixth world. I think it'd be really interesting to hear it. |
I love these ideas. Maybe take both of them and put them into one book for PCs who want to take on a more Treasure hunting / archaeologist run. Hey, it could still be gritty.
I've gotta agree with Thanos. Focusing on every corner of the earth seems like it may not be the best way for Fanpro to make money. I MAY buy SoE sometime, but I'm really in no rush. I'd much prefer to buy the older, core books like M&M and its ilk (and its descendants like SotA). That's useful for every player in most every campaign and stay the same from continent to continent. The Target books I could use for one setting, but I could get the info just as easily from an encyclopedia. It's great for the experienced GMs who are sick of Seattle, but for the rest of us, it's really not necessary or even useful yet. Additionally, the reason I buy shadowrun books isn't that I'm not creative enough to come up with my own settings, but because I'm not skilled enough to come up with balanced numbers. The settings I can make on my own, the solid numbers I can't.
My problem with books featuring a lot of areas is that they do seem to just go "oops, not enough room... let's turn these other areas into toxic waste dumps" and thereby ruining any chance of a GM using an area he would otherwise be interested in without having to completely ignore canon. All for the sake of mentioning the area for completeness' sake. (Yet simultaneously ignoring cool regions like Greece... grr. 
) 
)
Personally, I miss the old style of books like Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowtech, Fields of Fire and Cybertechnology.
I like pictures. I like complete flavour descriptions. I like running commentary.
-Wolf
I like pictures. I like complete flavour descriptions. I like running commentary.
-Wolf
| QUOTE (nezumi) |
| Focusing on every corner of the earth seems like it may not be the best way for Fanpro to make money. I MAY buy SoE sometime, but I'm really in no rush. |
Similar to the comment made about the lack of all-encompassing IT, I feel the current SR material doesn't place enough emphasis on the multinational aspect of life in the 2060s. It seems too convenient to me that most warring factions within megacorps seem to be split along geographic lines. True, most of humanity is stuck in neo-feudalism, but there's no reason that runs shouldn't entail a lot more overseas travel.
To optimize and make more useful the various international sourcebooks, would it then make sense to produce some material (or again, a chapter) on various joint international projects and agencies ? Seems to me that the best way to find more use for SoE if you're running a North America-based campaign is to be provided with various links between the two continents with respect to scientific research, law enforcement and organized crime, political activities, terrorism, etc.. I regularly used French interference (those Maudits Français we hate to love) in many aspects of my Québec campaign, to encourage the occasional transatlantic run. I know every sourcebook has such hooks, but are they detailed and exploited enough ?
My take...
Resolution. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. IMO, the plot is introduced in a SR sourcebook, the GM takes it and runs with it, and later on down the line, it should be resolved in canon one way or another.
While there is a valid complaint by those wishing to adhere strictly to canon if canon's resolution doesn't exactly mesh with the GM's story, I fear that by not resolving the story thread, it creates an even bigger problem.
What happens is that place A is developed, but to make it interesting the writer introduces major plot hook Z. So then they move on, content to leave the plot hooks to the GM. Then comes place B is developed and now the writer has to make it interesting too and either has to top plot hook Z in the last book, or at least make it different enough to not seem like last month's plot hook rehashed.
So book after book is filled with plot hooks that don't get resolved, eventually, everywhere a chummer looks there's one crisis or another, and it becomes harder and harder not to wonder why the entire Sixth World isn't crashing around our ears.
As far as books...
I think a sourcebook on Artifacts and Ancient History would be nice... One chapter could be focused on exploring and detailing Greece as a primary setting of such a book, maybe a small chapter exploring other possible sites or the tools of archeology? Another chapter developing on the Atlantis Foundation, the Draco Foundation, and any other corperate intrests into the past, perhaps one focusing on the black market, smuggling and shadowrun tie-ins, and perhaps one on helping SR's history diverge from ED since they're no longer under one company?
A properly researched and executed sourcebook would make me twitterpated...
Another idea that I feel would excite me is the development of Magic in SR from an IC view. MitS is nice, but it's first and foremost a rulebook. Explore how magic in society works. Explore what it's like to wield magic as both a Hermetic and a Shaman (maybe kinda like the split found in Corp Download). Help define the reality in which Magic presents itself as.
And any excuse of "it's MAGIC!" should result in the writer being drug out into the street and shot. Magic and science both spring from the same source: the desire to explain the world around them. Hermetically speaking, principles of Will, Knowledge, Identity, Contagion, Symbology, Sympathy, Inheriancy... no crystals or talk of fields of energy bulldrek. The writer needs to do his research on this and not spout off misconceptions.
Explore the metaplanes, define a few, have a Hermetic and a Shaman debate the nature of them and the nature of spirits and where they come from.
Thirdly, advance the tech. Wireless Matrix that sends email to your toaster. Rooms that turn off and on the lights automatically due to the presence of a human being. Minaturize things. Technology and the average person (from both a SINless to a Corper).
Fix replacement cyberlimbs.
Advance Nanotechnology and Genetechnology. Expand both with useful applications that players will actually want to spend the nuyen on. Don't change the starting character balance, but present these as options for the more experienced 'runners. Make the availibility rather high, but introduce these as the newest 'razor edge' features. Phase out deltaware and make these the new ultrasecret labratory research projects.
Lastly, and as my personal axe to grind, fix Saito. Hell, fix CFS. It was illogical and implausable to begin with, and it felt like the writers did all the research of picking up a travel brochure. Saito just compounded the problem further.
Resolution. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. IMO, the plot is introduced in a SR sourcebook, the GM takes it and runs with it, and later on down the line, it should be resolved in canon one way or another.
While there is a valid complaint by those wishing to adhere strictly to canon if canon's resolution doesn't exactly mesh with the GM's story, I fear that by not resolving the story thread, it creates an even bigger problem.
What happens is that place A is developed, but to make it interesting the writer introduces major plot hook Z. So then they move on, content to leave the plot hooks to the GM. Then comes place B is developed and now the writer has to make it interesting too and either has to top plot hook Z in the last book, or at least make it different enough to not seem like last month's plot hook rehashed.
So book after book is filled with plot hooks that don't get resolved, eventually, everywhere a chummer looks there's one crisis or another, and it becomes harder and harder not to wonder why the entire Sixth World isn't crashing around our ears.
As far as books...
I think a sourcebook on Artifacts and Ancient History would be nice... One chapter could be focused on exploring and detailing Greece as a primary setting of such a book, maybe a small chapter exploring other possible sites or the tools of archeology? Another chapter developing on the Atlantis Foundation, the Draco Foundation, and any other corperate intrests into the past, perhaps one focusing on the black market, smuggling and shadowrun tie-ins, and perhaps one on helping SR's history diverge from ED since they're no longer under one company?
A properly researched and executed sourcebook would make me twitterpated...
Another idea that I feel would excite me is the development of Magic in SR from an IC view. MitS is nice, but it's first and foremost a rulebook. Explore how magic in society works. Explore what it's like to wield magic as both a Hermetic and a Shaman (maybe kinda like the split found in Corp Download). Help define the reality in which Magic presents itself as.
And any excuse of "it's MAGIC!" should result in the writer being drug out into the street and shot. Magic and science both spring from the same source: the desire to explain the world around them. Hermetically speaking, principles of Will, Knowledge, Identity, Contagion, Symbology, Sympathy, Inheriancy... no crystals or talk of fields of energy bulldrek. The writer needs to do his research on this and not spout off misconceptions.
Explore the metaplanes, define a few, have a Hermetic and a Shaman debate the nature of them and the nature of spirits and where they come from.
Thirdly, advance the tech. Wireless Matrix that sends email to your toaster. Rooms that turn off and on the lights automatically due to the presence of a human being. Minaturize things. Technology and the average person (from both a SINless to a Corper).
Fix replacement cyberlimbs.
Advance Nanotechnology and Genetechnology. Expand both with useful applications that players will actually want to spend the nuyen on. Don't change the starting character balance, but present these as options for the more experienced 'runners. Make the availibility rather high, but introduce these as the newest 'razor edge' features. Phase out deltaware and make these the new ultrasecret labratory research projects.
Lastly, and as my personal axe to grind, fix Saito. Hell, fix CFS. It was illogical and implausable to begin with, and it felt like the writers did all the research of picking up a travel brochure. Saito just compounded the problem further.
I liked the Rigger 3 Revised Sourcebook. The fact that they inclueded Art work with most of the vehiclesmade it an excellent buy.
Target: Smugglers' Havens was the only Target sourcebook I liked and it left me wanting to know more about the rest of the Sixth World.
State of the Art:2063 was the best I have seen in a long time. The Art and Layout were terrific. The Material was full of Current Events and Character. I will definitely buy State of the Art: 2064.
Shadows of North America was good to have for crossing borders and having a general Political overview. The Art was so much better than previous SR Books.
The Spawl Survival Guide was Tops. The layout could definitely use some work.
A for future projects I want too see the currently proposed books published, save Loose Alliances (, but that's cause I know nothing about it).
I can't wait for RUNNING WILD. They better follow the Rigger 3 Revised format reguarding Art.
State of the Art: 2064 - I want too see the Adpet Powers section. I want too see more updated material from NAGTRL.
Mostly I want to see Shadowrun products coming out more frequently. Their last slump really had me worried.
Cheers
QM
Target: Smugglers' Havens was the only Target sourcebook I liked and it left me wanting to know more about the rest of the Sixth World.
State of the Art:2063 was the best I have seen in a long time. The Art and Layout were terrific. The Material was full of Current Events and Character. I will definitely buy State of the Art: 2064.
Shadows of North America was good to have for crossing borders and having a general Political overview. The Art was so much better than previous SR Books.
The Spawl Survival Guide was Tops. The layout could definitely use some work.
A for future projects I want too see the currently proposed books published, save Loose Alliances (, but that's cause I know nothing about it).
I can't wait for RUNNING WILD. They better follow the Rigger 3 Revised format reguarding Art.
State of the Art: 2064 - I want too see the Adpet Powers section. I want too see more updated material from NAGTRL.
Mostly I want to see Shadowrun products coming out more frequently. Their last slump really had me worried.
Cheers
QM
the advanced tech you mentioned is already present, and rules for / descriptions of it can be found in the Sprawl Survival Guide.
| QUOTE (tjn) |
| My take... Resolution. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end. IMO, the plot is introduced in a SR sourcebook, the GM takes it and runs with it, and later on down the line, it should be resolved in canon one way or another. |
My take is that plot threads in Shadowrun are not stories. They're tools. I don't read the Shadowrun books to find out what happens next; Shadowrun isn't a novel, and it shouldn't try to be. It's a game. The story is the game itself; the players are the main characters. Plots, therefore, should only be explored if the ideas involving them are 1) Good enough to just be aesthetically pleaseing or 2) Useful enough for players and gamemasters to make direct use of. If a story's arc and resolution is totally outside the scope of shadowrunners, it's really of little consequence.
Perfect example: Dunkelzahn. The Election of 2057 was a good setup, with lots of run potential. The election and immediate death of Dunkelzahn was dramatic and mysterious. And then someone crapped out the steaming pile that is the Dragonheart saga, which was a tragedy. Because it simultaneously obliterated any mystery surrounding the assassination and removed it entirely from the players, but it also botched the whole storyline and ruined a couple characters.
Skep, it's a game that uses storytelling as it's avenue of expression.
The definition of plot in literary terms is what happens in a story.
Thus when SR throws out the beginning of a story in a form of a plot hook, there should be an eventual conclusion within canon, even if it's small and out of the way. Otherwise the setting gets overinflated with too much happening at once.
You may not like the ending of Dunk's death, but it still needed to be there for SR to move on past it.
The definition of plot in literary terms is what happens in a story.
Thus when SR throws out the beginning of a story in a form of a plot hook, there should be an eventual conclusion within canon, even if it's small and out of the way. Otherwise the setting gets overinflated with too much happening at once.
You may not like the ending of Dunk's death, but it still needed to be there for SR to move on past it.
No, it didn't. We still might not know what really happened in the JFK assassination. Just one of those things. Like I said, what happens in the Shadowrun "plot" isn't a STORY, it's a collection of events. They are there for the purpose of being used by the players, and serve no purpose unto themselves. If they did, THEN they would be story. I don't read SR books just to enjoy the game fiction; I read them so I can make my OWN stories. Some things have resolutions; some don't. Just the way things go.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the advanced tech you mentioned is already present, and rules for / descriptions of it can be found in the Sprawl Survival Guide. |
I assume this was meant at me...
Going back and rereading SSG, yer right.
Though I do realized why it slipped my mind. Because it's utterly mundane. We have homes that would put those to shame even today, granted they're on the pricey side, but there's nothing that evokes "futuristic" in their description.
Also, it's presentation is highly obtuse and a slight bit illogical, which is to say the technology should recede in the background. Having to program everything is unworkable. It needs to work just fine for someone who has absolutely no clue how to program, because if it's not user friendly, it will never sell.
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown) |
| My take is that plot threads in Shadowrun are not stories. They're tools. I don't read the Shadowrun books to find out what happens next; Shadowrun isn't a novel, and it shouldn't try to be. It's a game. The story is the game itself; the players are the main characters. Plots, therefore, should only be explored if the ideas involving them are 1) Good enough to just be aesthetically pleaseing or 2) Useful enough for players and gamemasters to make direct use of. If a story's arc and resolution is totally outside the scope of shadowrunners, it's really of little consequence. Perfect example: Dunkelzahn. The Election of 2057 was a good setup, with lots of run potential. The election and immediate death of Dunkelzahn was dramatic and mysterious. And then someone crapped out the steaming pile that is the Dragonheart saga, which was a tragedy. Because it simultaneously obliterated any mystery surrounding the assassination and removed it entirely from the players, but it also botched the whole storyline and ruined a couple characters. |
/agree 100%.
Deeper mysteries are always excellent to keep the players and GM's on their toes, they'll never know what to expect when they can't read the exact stats or situations surrounding an event or NPC. Some minor set-up is nice, helps put you in the right direction, but it's the unknown that makes it mysterious and helps stretch our minds a bit and helps bring back that brand-new feeling SR used to have.
I like the "Hot Spots" sections of the books for all these reasons. I use them as examples more often than not, and if I need an idea or two, they are close at hand. these sometimes contain some lore about one thing or another that helps to deepen the mystery for players, keeping their prying cybereyes blind for at least a few moments.
However you surely realize you are not bound by what the books list as officially having had happened right?
Just because Jack Koke says Dunkelzahn killed himself to save the world, doesn't mean in your current campaign your players couldn't be directly responsible. There are ways of getting the same end result with out sticking to Cannon.
Hell we often change a variety of events to suit a campaign. In my game world Chicago is still Universally controlled by the bugs. In some campaigns however various events may or may not have taken place.
Canons a nice baseline, but I take my games beyond it.
Oh and thanks to anyone who enjoyed seattle 2063! It was my baby. As soon as the rest of it hits I hope you'll all see how truly ambitous we got with that. (Whether we did a good job or not is for you to judge!)
Just because Jack Koke says Dunkelzahn killed himself to save the world, doesn't mean in your current campaign your players couldn't be directly responsible. There are ways of getting the same end result with out sticking to Cannon.
Hell we often change a variety of events to suit a campaign. In my game world Chicago is still Universally controlled by the bugs. In some campaigns however various events may or may not have taken place.
Canons a nice baseline, but I take my games beyond it.
Oh and thanks to anyone who enjoyed seattle 2063! It was my baby. As soon as the rest of it hits I hope you'll all see how truly ambitous we got with that. (Whether we did a good job or not is for you to judge!)
of course anyone can make whatever changes they want to, to the storyline or any other element. however, this thread is about what people want to see in SR--ideally, everyone should like the presented material enough that they don't have to change it to suit their tastes. the "if you don't like it, change it" attitude basically makes the idea of buying the material in the first place moot.
I realize that-but I think tha people have to realize there is a limit to what the people doing the writing can do for us. Its not my intent to say that my previous post is the solution-only that its an option.
I want a lot of stuff thats pretty much just not going to happen, at a certain point I have to be realistic about what it is that I can expect. This thread may have the positive effect of letting somebody at Fan Pro know what some fans(And my impression is most of here are pretty intensive SR fans) want. They then get to weigh that against the feedback they receive from four other forums like this one, countless emails, Gen Con feedback and so on.
I am by no means saying don't dream big-but we all (me especially) need to temper our enthusiam with reality. Plus I think we should try and get a consensus of some sort on a list of priority suggestion.
Cull through the list and find where people stand. (Random example that bears no relation to reality: 16 out 0f 29 posters wnat more Nerps, 15 want Dr. Halberstiem to rule the planet, dreckcetera..)
Issues like IE's and ED crossovers are pretty divisive issues. If I were the Line Developer I'd look for something less volatile-like say Cyberlimbs. That way I skirt the firestorm that will eventually result from either shooting Harlequin in his narrow ass, or putting him ont he Papal throne. (To make another extremist silly example. What can I say I like them!)
If nothing else its kind of cool to see how other people think and feel, and that the fan base is this active in the game. That rocks.
I want a lot of stuff thats pretty much just not going to happen, at a certain point I have to be realistic about what it is that I can expect. This thread may have the positive effect of letting somebody at Fan Pro know what some fans(And my impression is most of here are pretty intensive SR fans) want. They then get to weigh that against the feedback they receive from four other forums like this one, countless emails, Gen Con feedback and so on.
I am by no means saying don't dream big-but we all (me especially) need to temper our enthusiam with reality. Plus I think we should try and get a consensus of some sort on a list of priority suggestion.
Cull through the list and find where people stand. (Random example that bears no relation to reality: 16 out 0f 29 posters wnat more Nerps, 15 want Dr. Halberstiem to rule the planet, dreckcetera..)
Issues like IE's and ED crossovers are pretty divisive issues. If I were the Line Developer I'd look for something less volatile-like say Cyberlimbs. That way I skirt the firestorm that will eventually result from either shooting Harlequin in his narrow ass, or putting him ont he Papal throne. (To make another extremist silly example. What can I say I like them!)
If nothing else its kind of cool to see how other people think and feel, and that the fan base is this active in the game. That rocks.
true.
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown) |
| No, it didn't. We still might not know what really happened in the JFK assassination. Just one of those things. Like I said, what happens in the Shadowrun "plot" isn't a STORY, it's a collection of events. They are there for the purpose of being used by the players, and serve no purpose unto themselves. If they did, THEN they would be story. I don't read SR books just to enjoy the game fiction; I read them so I can make my OWN stories. Some things have resolutions; some don't. Just the way things go. |
Skep, SR is not a static setting, no matter how much you may desire it to never change.
It was based from the beginning on a progression, that each year mirrored one sixty years in the future. That means these plot hooks do not last forever, and that there is a conclusion in order so that the setting can move with the time frame.
It is my opinion, that with the current trend of sourcebooks, there is entirely too many of these going on at the same time.
Off the top of my head we have:
Even though we may know about Dunk's death, his will still has a lot of open ended threads
Aztechnology/Blood Mages
AI's everywhere, only the most famous being Deus
Insects learning to be subtle
Denver's problems
Civil War in the Yucatan
Saito in the CFS
Tir Tairngire's political situation
Texas boarder skirmishes
PCC's land grab
The RCC's machinations
Fall of Fuchi still having repercussions
Growth of Wuxing and the PPG
Crime wars in virtually every sprawl
The Japanese Emperor
The Phillipinnes and Masaru
The Salish/Tsimishan War
The huge manastorm over Australia
Shedim
The Fifth Column trying to revive the USA
Shockwaves
And I haven't even gotten a chance to get SoE
Skep, according to Canon, all of these are still ongoing...
It stretches my sense of disbelief that all of this is happening at the same time and the world isn't crashing down about it's ears.
Location books for Latin America, Asia and Africa.
More ED links.
Keep improving the art. It's definitely jumped up in quality.
A beginner's pack. SR Lite, anyone?
Corporate Download-style book for the Media.
Someone to kill Ryan Mercury. I even have my candidate.
More ED links.
Keep improving the art. It's definitely jumped up in quality.
A beginner's pack. SR Lite, anyone?
Corporate Download-style book for the Media.
Someone to kill Ryan Mercury. I even have my candidate.
I'd go for "Shadows of..." all around the globe. Once the whole planet is covered, then it's time for "Target x" with details on the more interesting places to visit.
That "Target: Astral Space" sounds quite nice and promissing. Might bring life to a new dimension in SR. Still, as it depends so much on the mundane world, it can be tricky to do before the globe is covered.
A track campaign like Blood in the Boardroom. They don't sell well, I know, but BitB was too cool and a man can dream!
That "Target: Astral Space" sounds quite nice and promissing. Might bring life to a new dimension in SR. Still, as it depends so much on the mundane world, it can be tricky to do before the globe is covered.
A track campaign like Blood in the Boardroom. They don't sell well, I know, but BitB was too cool and a man can dream!
Target: Awakened Lands 2
Chapter One: Dark Jungle, Glass Castle - Metropole
Chapter Two: Crossroads of Time - Greece
Chapter Three: Secrets and Sorcerers - Magical Research Groups
Chapter One: Dark Jungle, Glass Castle - Metropole
Chapter Two: Crossroads of Time - Greece
Chapter Three: Secrets and Sorcerers - Magical Research Groups
Chapter Four: Tibet
Chapter Five: Australia one more time
~J
~J
One of the things I worry about Tibet is the vast power level of the nation. I'd rather keep it dark and myterious, getting a few pages in SoA than a full break down like I expect from Target books. Otherwise they'll just blow-up all the cool l33t things to make it runner safe, and frag that. The entire world need not be a runner's wet dream. Maybe another section of updates and expasions of those small bites in T:AL (like Chicago!).
I too would rather leave the Tibet be. It's better as a mystery.
| QUOTE (tjn @ Jul 28 2004, 12:27 AM) |
| Skep, SR is not a static setting, no matter how much you may desire it to never change. It was based from the beginning on a progression, that each year mirrored one sixty years in the future. That means these plot hooks do not last forever, and that there is a conclusion in order so that the setting can move with the time frame. |
Yeah, I think you miss the point. I don't mind if the world isn't static. but events edon't always have beginning, middle, and end. Sometimes things just kind of fall out of view. Yeah, there ARE dozens of plot threads that were brought up and never resolved. Some of them are best left mostly open-ended. Some aren't even worth mentioning again. So why should anyone feel obligated to do so? My point is that if the resolution isn't going to be aesthetically pleasing and useful, no one should waste the time, the effort, or the paper to create it.
Oh, and yeah, I know I don't have to use the Dragonheart Saga. I don't. Really, how could I? But just by existing, it kind of taints the entire affair. For example, I can't even hear mention of Nadja Daviar without remembering the absolutely loathsome portrayal of her in the novel series.
I have to agree with tjn about the plots. There's just too many things in SR that have never been answered, that will almost certainly never be answered. It makes the game start feeling like X-files when they never figure anything out. If you want brand new, get a brand new thing to investigate, don't just go on wondering what happened to Dunkie for 15 years, instead try to figure out somebody else.
So how about someone just gets a big list of answers and posts it on the web, so that all the people who MUST know where Juan Atzcapotzalco went can finally know, and dedicate writing to more practical stuff? 
Perhaps this discussion should go in another thread and try and keep Synner's excellent question on topic.
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown) |
| So how about someone just gets a big list of answers and posts it on the web, so that all the people who MUST know where Juan Atzcapotzalco went can finally know, and dedicate writing to more practical stuff? |
tell you what, you ask me a question about a plot element that has not been and will never be answered, and I'll tell you what happens... because if it mattered enough to be relevant to the game world then it would have been answered! By the virtue of it not existing, whatever happened was not news.
untrue. the conclusion to the plot element may simply have not yet occured. maybe Juan Atzcapotzalco wound up in China, and his fate will be revealed in Shadows of Asia.
Eh? I don't quite follow that, but I was simply being a bit cheeky in pointing out that there's no way all the loose threads can or should be resolved at this point. Better to take the best ones and run with those, than to introduce new threads or spend time resolving threads that no one wants to work on anymore. I don't actually care where Juan is, I was just picking as obscure an unsolved mystery I could remember. If they never mention Juan again that's fine, makes it all that much easier for me to use him for something if I wanted to.
| QUOTE |
| So book after book is filled with plot hooks that don't get resolved, eventually, everywhere a chummer looks there's one crisis or another, and it becomes harder and harder not to wonder why the entire Sixth World isn't crashing around our ears. |
Who says it isn't?
| QUOTE |
| there's no way all the loose threads can or should be resolved at this point. |
Perhaps some of them have been resolved. We just don't know about it. Maybe Oswald acted alone. Maybe not. There is no way to know. That plot definitely has an end. We just don't know what it is.
Thanos
Allright, I'm going to actually chip in here.
I do NOT want to see new and cool cutting edge tech. This is a game that advances year by year corresponding with real life time. We should see incremental minor advances, alternates to existing tech that accomplish basically the same thing in new ways that drives a choice between balanced technologies and things like that.
The "new and cool" hurts a game system by escalating it artifically. Above all else I do not want the game to skew liek it has been lately. magic has been made more dominant with new techniques ect, and I'd like to see that stop. I do NOT want to see technology advanced to catch the magic because that leads in an arms race. I loved the last SOTA book but the idea of them frightens me for this very reason. Just the simple existance of that new technology and magic changes the game world and has ramifications.
I thought the credstick rules and lifestyle rules in recent publications were fantastic, and exactly what I wanted.
I'd like to see the same with Cyberlimbs.
On that note, I'd like to see things actually playtested instead of getting vague rules and wholly screwed up things that cause suspension of disbelief, play balance issues and arguments. Some things dont become apparent till you play them for a little while, and in various games. Not everyone runs the same style. For balance issues See Mnemoni enhancer and the karms reduction. That's absolutely horrible, and its better after the eratta but still sucks.
I also like the Target: and Shadows Of: books. I do not need to be spoon fed any plots or scenarios, but those books provide me with the basic building blocks to create a good campaign. So yes, I'd like to see more of them.
I do NOT want to see new and cool cutting edge tech. This is a game that advances year by year corresponding with real life time. We should see incremental minor advances, alternates to existing tech that accomplish basically the same thing in new ways that drives a choice between balanced technologies and things like that.
The "new and cool" hurts a game system by escalating it artifically. Above all else I do not want the game to skew liek it has been lately. magic has been made more dominant with new techniques ect, and I'd like to see that stop. I do NOT want to see technology advanced to catch the magic because that leads in an arms race. I loved the last SOTA book but the idea of them frightens me for this very reason. Just the simple existance of that new technology and magic changes the game world and has ramifications.
I thought the credstick rules and lifestyle rules in recent publications were fantastic, and exactly what I wanted.
I'd like to see the same with Cyberlimbs.
On that note, I'd like to see things actually playtested instead of getting vague rules and wholly screwed up things that cause suspension of disbelief, play balance issues and arguments. Some things dont become apparent till you play them for a little while, and in various games. Not everyone runs the same style. For balance issues See Mnemoni enhancer and the karms reduction. That's absolutely horrible, and its better after the eratta but still sucks.
I also like the Target: and Shadows Of: books. I do not need to be spoon fed any plots or scenarios, but those books provide me with the basic building blocks to create a good campaign. So yes, I'd like to see more of them.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
others have mentioned a change i'd like to see in future location books: assume that the reader is intelligent enough to go google basic stuff for himself. a little bit of help in the basic info department is okay, but dedicate a larger percentage of the wordcount to what's going on, as opposed to what has already happened. |
Indeed. I think I may have been "others." I was thinking about the fact that I wrote a short but detailed description of DeeCee in a thread six months ago which, well, required the reader to know something about the city--where things are and who's who. It's easily googled, and I saved a tremendous amount of space not having to go into detail about how and why something is like it is--it just is. For example, I wrote this:
| QUOTE |
The IOND has their HQ off Foxhall Road, which is most assuredly in Georgetown and not Foggy Bottom. It'd be very close to Georgetown University, and this would put it between the U and the reservoir and Teddy Roosevelt Island. Manadyne's offices would also probably be in Georgetown on the backside where there... uh... what's it called... nature. Same with T99 (owned by Novatech). |
It already assumes that you know who IOND, Manadyne, and T99 are. It assumes you know where Foxhall Rd., T.R. Island, and the Georgetown reservoir are located, and within the context of where Georgetown University is located. Also it requires you to know what I mean by, the IOND being, "most assuredly in Georgetown and not Foggy Bottom" and what the difference is between the two neighborhoods. It implies an understanding of why it makes sense if you actually know the layout and character of D.C.
I don't need to go into the history of the DOE disappearing to create a situation where Shiawase Atomics (whose canon HQ is in FDC) took over its assets, including the Forrestal Building. If you know where the Forrestal Building and the other assets that can be included in its control of Southwest from DOE to L'Enfant Plaza, you'd recognize that it is a pretty symbolic fact. And a humerous one, too. But I have neither the time nor the inclination to hold hands and explain it. Get a map.
Likewise, I didn't explain why the World Bank and IMF buildings are controlled by the Corp Court and Z-OG Bank. They just are. However, knowing their location and what the main World Bank building looks like might explain why they'd keep the buildings intact and where they are, or why 18th & Penn may just be the most heavily-armed intersection in the city.
Anyway, I wonder about place descriptions having to be given so much context. And it goes along with the fact that SR has lost some of the mystery to it in two ways. 1) It has been explained to us in historical information presented in these various books, or 2) we've played through it (some longer than others). But I agree with mfb that I don't particularly find historical information data so much as I want useful current information to utilize for myself. I'd rather not have to be told what is a major plothook--something that becomes pretty obvious when books are written about some hooks. Some of the most interesting things I found in SBs was the opening of the SBs when the intro was "Shadowland v2.0," et seq. and contained little bits of rumor or innuendo or just interesting information. Something like that would have been the best place in the world to intro RA:S. "The Seattle Arc has sealed itself up. Rumors are flying. Stay tuned." RA:S was a pretty good book, but it could have had a better build-up. Actually, I take that back. It did. On Shadowland. But that only happened through good fortune involving the authors.
One of the interesting things about the metaplot events is that they should have beginnings, intermediate happenings, climaxes, conclusions and epilogues. Someone else convinced me that I had been a bit foolish demanding closure, because IRL there is never complete closure. Bug City is still a mess even after Operation: Extermination, Dunk's heir is still engaged in some scheme even though he died in '57, Deus is still running around somewhere and the SCIRE is, well, it's more self-contained than midtown Chicago. But, CD, you say... There are historical events that are still rippling through SR. You need context.
No, I don't.
Unless I can get involved in it and play around with it, I don't want to know. I don't because I don't care. At least, not about what FanPro says. It makes a GM more powerful to throw the PCs into events that they can't learn about in some effing book. And since when do we get the benefit of walking into events with all of the knowledge of what happened, or even what might have caused something that we got caught up in? You're making the GMs and players lazy. What's so bad about walking into the middle of a plot and not knowing what the eff is going on? Why do we have to know everything? More to the point, why should we want to know everything? I am not only concerned about the state of the game, but the state of the gamers. We've gotten soft and lazy. When I read posts from people I have to believe are not neophytes to the game asking for IC books about magic and tech, I worry. I read tjn's post from today at 6:27 MST that, "It stretches my sense of disbelief that all of this is happening at the same time and the world isn't crashing down about it's ears." I thought, "What he has mentioned isn't that many things. There are more random and interconnected big events going on right now all over the world, but it hasn't fallen apart yet." Just reading Stratfor or the entire New York Times from cover to cover on any given day puts all of these things in perspective. Wars happen, empires fall, alliances shift, and people die. But life goes on.
I object to the very idea of needing another IC book like Awakenings. Sure it was useful as a lated 2d ed. magic book... for the rules. From a literary POV the fictional aspect was uninspired, cliche (the worst stereotypes are the people claiming to be mirror opposites of stereotypes), and boring. I learned nothing, and I find it hard to believe anyone really could learn anything more than what was in BBB about the IC aspects of playing magical characters. But then I am also inspired by other people's fiction via written adventures. Of course these are a plethora of characters of varying experience, including a couple of mages who are so powerful that they had to rewrite the upper-level Initiation rules because it was making it impossible to advance into the twenties. Their rules are quickly becoming more interesting and logical than the SR rules for magic, especially, but for technology. I doubt I'd be surprised if I asked how many people rewrote the cyberlimb rules and most of you said you had. They suck, and I can not wait on FanPro for them to fix them according to specifications which I think have already been captured in a more logical fashion by players (one in particular).
Likewise, I don't particular think that it should be FanPro's job to give us technology like it's a necessity that we can't live without until they do something for us. Actually, I don't think it's FanPro's job to explain the world to us like we're three years old. Bluetooth isn't in SR? Well, then it must never have existed. Or you can just use it and move on! Need encryption? There are rules for it. Transmission barriers, etc. can be picked up wherever you get your information on Bluetooth if it's such a big deal. You rely on FanPro and you might end up having to need a Rating 35 antenna.
Frankly, you're all being pretty needy, and uninspired.
When I said I missed the mystery of SR1 and early SR2, I meant it. I do that--Say what I mean, and do what I say. I liked that the early SR created a land gulf between Seattle and the UCAS. It made it easier to believe what had to be stated in SoNA--That the UCAS is a bit slow in catching up (the U.S. isn't exactly the most progressive place on Earth. Some parts are. Some parts more than compensate for that progress.), is angry, frustrated and heavily armed, and so desperately wants to pick a fight that it engages in border skirmishes with a country it could probably stomp on because its also been cuckolded by the corps and its own sense of isolationism and weakness--especially its weakness at being subject to countless magical ass-whippings. Of course, it had also been stated in NAGNA along with the statistic that a terrorist even occurred in the UCAS every 20 seconds. I didn't need Tom Dowd or Steve Kenson (especially the latter) to tell me what seemed pretty obvious just in reading "And so it came to pass..." (Since NAGNA was not the first book I bought). I didn't need either to consider the UCAS popular conscience with relation to the Awakened was probably like the Palestinian popular conscience as it relates to Israel. After fifty years of being humiliated, I don't imagine any magic-user in the UCAS not affiliated with the corps would feel much more than trepidation, a sense of moral and mystical superiority, and an overwhelming urge to get the eff out of Dodge.
I've wanted to write for SR for a long time. I once went through 37 drafts of a proposal which was inspired by my own interests and a couple of other people. However, I realized that the subject was going to be dry and technical, and utterly effing useless to most people. The background technical information was most likely not going to change much though. I realized, frankly, that FASA didn't need to publish it. What I wish was published was roleplaying advice on where gamers could do their own research and what kind of things they should consider in roleplaying under the auspices of the book's subject. One of the things I think of is Raygun's intelligence agencies project. And I think of how juvenile I was when I made lists of all sort of things like that. Some of it may have been available, but it didn't matter. But I think of trying to explain 60 years of the CIA, and all that comes to mind is... Why? We can maybe know what's going on with the Company ( Right now thanks to the 9/11 Commission Report, but also to the plethora of books on it), and maybe get one of many answers about the history or why the culture as it is today is as it is. And I think to myself, I'd rather know what's going on now, and let me worry about the backstory. Because the backstory can be anything I want, and it makes it easier for me to come up with plotlines for the low to uber-level campaign if FanPro isn't publishing The Rise and Fall of the Sixth World and ruining the character that I created based on one sentence in a FASA NPC's bio. Anything more on that would ruin the PC and piss me off because while I don't like it I try to remain as canon as possible (with regard to events. Not with rules.)
And I don't like the idea of going more into detail about governments and various agencies, but then I've spent years doing it professionally and personally, but I'd kill myself if I had to read about the last 60 years of US/UCAS federal law enforcement in a Shadowrun SB. I'd be pretty annoyed having to read anything so dry as, "The FBI has X jurisdiction and is organized..." Just creating character based on current information is painful enough (Like I said, I recently killed an entire evening reading through press releases and other information to build an unofficial orgchart for a government agency). I had to come up with a BS but somewhat logical reason why the Marshals run Matrix Crimes in the UCAS, and frankly I can't see FanPro doing much better (At first I just assumed "Marshals" was a typo. Alas...) The more left unsaid, the better. Right now I have the UCAS government playing a more overt role than what many perceive (regardless of whether they're right) it is doing today in effectively providing free muscle for the corps to go after "evildoers." No Threats or fifth columns. Just political exploitation.
But OTOH, it's not that I don't completely buy into the "shadow" community, and the idea of Shadowland--nor the idea of corps wanting to nuke it. I don't buy how it's never been physically compromised because, frankly, it's run by criminal scum.
So, what do I want to see?
Better rules. But I don't see that happening, especially with the investment made into CC, M&M and MitS. Meh.
More events. Big events, little events. Random references to things. News. Information. Books that are not about the effing great dragons would be nice.
SOTA is a good idea, in theory. Highlight the trends, major events, random thought on what's happening around Seattle or the world. Nothing that would take longer to read than your average Headline News story (about 1.5 min, or 1.5 pages of text).
I guess places might be useful, but frankly if all we got were descriptions of cities as vapid and useless as we did in SoNA (esp. the UCAS chapter) then forget it. My posts to Shadows of DeeCee contained more information than Kenson graced us with, and the first was about as long. I thought it was remarkable how much information was given about Russian history in the Validvostok chapter of T:SH compared to the lack of CAS history in the NOLA chapter for information on what is happening at the moment. (Take note. This may be the only time you see me say something positive about Steven Kenson).
Frankly, I can't think of much I want to see from FanPro anymore that I can't just do myself. A simple "what's up" would suffice at this point.
Finally, I speak of the Dragonheart Saga. At first I liked it, but halfway through Clockwork Asylum I began to become disappointed. I didn't like the third novel, and after all of the years the books have left me with three indelible images:
- Roxy being a filthy virtual pederast
- Damien Knight being a fucking badass
- Nadja Daviar's dark brown nipples
| QUOTE |
| Unless I can get involved in it and play around with it, I don't want to know. I don't because I don't care. At least, not about what FanPro says. It makes a GM more powerful to throw the PCs into events that they can't learn about in some effing book. And since when do we get the benefit of walking into events with all of the knowledge of what happened, or even what might have caused something that we got caught up in? You're making the GMs and players lazy... |
Can we get an AMEN brothers.. AMEN!!!
Oh, though it has been mentioned already, I too would like to see new gear. Not new versions of thing already in existance (like guns) but new equipment. Specially, spy-like equipment. Stealth is a side of the game that looks a bit downplayed when it comes to toys.
From reading the advertisements for Mr. Johnson's Little Black Book and SOTA64 I personally think much of my wishlist is already on cue to be answered, but I'll toss my hat in the ring on the following subjects:
A Target: Astral Space book is about the best idea I've heard yet.
A map book, especially for corp compounds, complete with security systems and plot hooks. This would be closr on my list to the Astral Space idea for best book.
More adept powers.
More Cyber/Bioware/Genetech/Nanotech.
More guns, especially a Street Samurai Catalog type book.
More details on corperations. What kind of security is common for them, where their campuses are located, what kind of runs might target a specific corp.
More government involvement, detailed breakdowns (including sample operatives) from intelligence agencies and special ops.
That's about it I gues, other than shorter waiting periods between books, which the current schedule looks to be addressing.
[edit] Oh, and more actual rules. I love that Shadowrun is a setting driven campaign, light on the rules, but a little bit more stuff that's actually useable in game would be nice. Particularly some quick and dirty decking rules, as my players hate to wait around for the decker's "game within a game" to get over so they can keep playing. Perhaps a series of rolls or something? Decking is fun, but with a large group it leave a lot of people out of the action.
A Target: Astral Space book is about the best idea I've heard yet.
A map book, especially for corp compounds, complete with security systems and plot hooks. This would be closr on my list to the Astral Space idea for best book.
More adept powers.
More Cyber/Bioware/Genetech/Nanotech.
More guns, especially a Street Samurai Catalog type book.
More details on corperations. What kind of security is common for them, where their campuses are located, what kind of runs might target a specific corp.
More government involvement, detailed breakdowns (including sample operatives) from intelligence agencies and special ops.
That's about it I gues, other than shorter waiting periods between books, which the current schedule looks to be addressing.
[edit] Oh, and more actual rules. I love that Shadowrun is a setting driven campaign, light on the rules, but a little bit more stuff that's actually useable in game would be nice. Particularly some quick and dirty decking rules, as my players hate to wait around for the decker's "game within a game" to get over so they can keep playing. Perhaps a series of rolls or something? Decking is fun, but with a large group it leave a lot of people out of the action.
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