When it comes time for a 4th Edition, I hope FanPro or whoever else has the license at the time does what WotC did with D&D; a complete revamp of the system from the ground up while keeping the style and focus of the game in mind.
That's not to say I want to see a d20-type system. Not at all. I just don't want to see cut-and-pasted sourcebooks with only a handful of changes.
Not that any of that really matters since a 4th Edition is a long way off. But when it does come time for that, I hope they go all out with it.
Full Version: So what next... in SR
I would love more 'low level' plots. Things like in the original Seattle sourcebook, where runners would post on message boards about metting up at local bars, little plot hooks that never got resolved, that kind of thing. Talk about something that *isn't* world-shattering for once, and doesn't have far reaching implications. Maybe just local implications. Small meta-game hooks, too, would be interesting.
What about the other half? A SSG-style book detailing information about how the destitute, abandoned, and SINless (ie, most shadowrunners and aquiantences) get by would be nice. Information on products they'd use, ales they'd drink, places they'd visit. Detail out the Pualup and Redmond barrens a bit more, highlighting various places, groups, and gangs.
I loved the Awakenings book, specifically, the chapter on magical techniques. How about a book dedicated to shadowruning tricks, tips, and scams? Again, the SSG had some of that stuff in there, but they could go even farther. Captain Chaos doesn't even have to get anyone to write an article; the book could be just a collection of several SIGs from the shadowland boards. They don't have to talk about the time they broke into Ares' Super Secure Mega Armory Storage And Research Hidden Base In Orbit Over Antarctica, but medium stuff, small mom-and-pop corps, that kind of thing. The best thing about that chapter in the Awakenings book was it pretty much was all in shadowtalk, so you didn't know what (if anything) was true.
What about the other half? A SSG-style book detailing information about how the destitute, abandoned, and SINless (ie, most shadowrunners and aquiantences) get by would be nice. Information on products they'd use, ales they'd drink, places they'd visit. Detail out the Pualup and Redmond barrens a bit more, highlighting various places, groups, and gangs.
I loved the Awakenings book, specifically, the chapter on magical techniques. How about a book dedicated to shadowruning tricks, tips, and scams? Again, the SSG had some of that stuff in there, but they could go even farther. Captain Chaos doesn't even have to get anyone to write an article; the book could be just a collection of several SIGs from the shadowland boards. They don't have to talk about the time they broke into Ares' Super Secure Mega Armory Storage And Research Hidden Base In Orbit Over Antarctica, but medium stuff, small mom-and-pop corps, that kind of thing. The best thing about that chapter in the Awakenings book was it pretty much was all in shadowtalk, so you didn't know what (if anything) was true.
that's a really good idea, Glav. i'd love to see a book, or even a section in one of the SOTAs, detailing the details of jury-rigging things. put those B/R skills to better use by faking the funk on everything from firearms to Matrix feeds to housing.
| QUOTE (The Question Man) |
 Sorry Chummer, but IMOHO a Shadowrun Rules 3rd Edtion Revised based on what I have seen with other Shadowrun 3rd Edtion Revised Sourcebooks is called for. |
The problem is that SR3 really started the slowdown. Unless FanPro can release all the core books (Rigger, VR, Guns & Cyber, Magic, plus the Main Book) in a very short time, you'd lose an awful lot of folks.
As for revising, you'd probably lose just as many in the transition, plus the folks that don't want to buy all new stuff.
I'm actually all for a SR4, if it could be done on time, but as much as I like SR, it's not D&D. FanPro is not Wizards of the Coast. There were a lot of complaints about 3.5, but the numbers were still there. Wizards has the money and staff to push out core books while doing flavor material and other assorted products.
So, no major changes right yet.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| that's a really good idea, Glav. i'd love to see a book, or even a section in one of the SOTAs, detailing the details of jury-rigging things. put those B/R skills to better use by faking the funk on everything from firearms to Matrix feeds to housing. |
I once had rules for vehicle patch work repairs, including a repair drone. I don't know where they went in the Great Computer Shift of 03 though, don't think I had them on my (now MIA, Cable switch) website.
I'd like to see more specificity. The SO books suffer a bit from being too broad -- whole cities are often covered in about two paragraphs.
But keep in mind that you can do Shadows of Europe, and then do a Rome book, too. Have the cake and eat it. You did it with SONA and Seattle.
I want to see Shadows of the Arab World (including Israel), which I've said before on these boards. And I want to see Shadows of Asia in two volumes. SOE and SONA suffer from trying to fit too much into one book -- SOA is definitely trying to bite off more than it can chew if it's going to do all of Asia between two covers.
I want Cyberpirates to be reprinted or redone. That. Book. F!cking. Rocks.
I'm very excited about what I've heard regarding Running Wild; paranimals released from that tiny little paphlet, plus rules for training, buying, selling, and owning animals.
Oh, and Raygun was kicking around the idea of an online SB RE intelligence agencies. I think Wizkids should do a full fledged sourcebook on intel agencies.
But keep in mind that you can do Shadows of Europe, and then do a Rome book, too. Have the cake and eat it. You did it with SONA and Seattle.
I want to see Shadows of the Arab World (including Israel), which I've said before on these boards. And I want to see Shadows of Asia in two volumes. SOE and SONA suffer from trying to fit too much into one book -- SOA is definitely trying to bite off more than it can chew if it's going to do all of Asia between two covers.
I want Cyberpirates to be reprinted or redone. That. Book. F!cking. Rocks.
I'm very excited about what I've heard regarding Running Wild; paranimals released from that tiny little paphlet, plus rules for training, buying, selling, and owning animals.
Oh, and Raygun was kicking around the idea of an online SB RE intelligence agencies. I think Wizkids should do a full fledged sourcebook on intel agencies.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Nanotech poses a unique problem in that after the development of the first auto-replicating strains of nanites, assuming a stable source of materials (including high level recycling), the possibility of nanofactories (or "makers" as they're also known in the fiction) becomes very real. Nanofactories require minimal energy (nanites are so small they could sustain themselves on ambient electrostatic power) and will produce just about anything given the right set of "nano-blueprints" and materials. Shadowrun's level of nanotech is treading dangerously close to this level already. In Diamond Age everybody has an oven-sized maker in their home, they pay a service fee to link to the Feed (which supplies power and the materials for the maker) and what people actually buy (license to be perfectly correct) are the "nano-blueprints" the makers use. The maker has a computer and that is what runs the nanites, the nanites themselves are not specialized and can be used to make a new coat as easily as sheets of paper, a chiprecorder or even a gun - as long as you have the blueprints. Of course, if you know someone who can draw up those blueprints the sky's the limit to what you can make in your basement. Not to spoil the book put part of the core story is the transition between Feed based nano-systems (which can still be controlled by institutional means and controlling the source) and Seed nano-systems which would allow self replicating and infinitely recycling nanotech without dependence on the Feed (which is controlled by the last megacorps). |
But there's no reason why this has to be possible. Yes, nanites can create all sorts of things, but the development of a sufficiently controlled environment that size could easily be unfeasible. Note that I'm not commenting on a prediction of how things will shake out in the real world, but providing reasons why nanotech can advance without bringing to fruition anything close to this vision.
Basically, kill the autoreplicating nanites and everything else falls down.
~J
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| I think Wizkids should do a full fledged sourcebook on intel agencies. |
Fanpro, not Wizkids, will include Spy stuff in the next State of the Art (SotA 2064).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Let me log a vote against unifying the rulesets. I like my magic working differently from my rigging, which in turn works differently from my decking. At the least, it provides a diversity of specialty amongst SR players. Simplify? To a degree. Explain? Hell yes. Unify? I'll pass, please. |
The rigging rules really do need to be cleaned up, though. They're massively overly complex. I mean, come on, what's with the vehicle combat maneuver score and all that drek on page 140-141 of SR3? It's arcane and cryptic, and takes tons of on the spot math that seems to have little to do with the existing combat rules. Something needs to be done to roll vehicle-to-vehicle and vehicle-to-individual combat together, taking into account that it's generally much easier to hit something car-sized than it is to hit something man-sized. Of course, if the vehicle's moving above a certain rate, it'll also need the "target running" modifier or something comparable, but that shouldn't be that hard to work in.
I love rigger characters. They're intriguing to play. But the rules regarding them and combat (and electronic warfare! Oy!) are, in my opinion, astonishingly over-complex.
Deckers, on the other hand, are pretty straightforward once you wrap your mind around all the concepts. The "Idiot's Guide to the Matrix" thread helped me immensely in that regard.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| When it comes time for a 4th Edition, I hope FanPro or whoever else has the license at the time does what WotC did with D&D; a complete revamp of the system from the ground up while keeping the style and focus of the game in mind. That's not to say I want to see a d20-type system. Not at all. I just don't want to see cut-and-pasted sourcebooks with only a handful of changes. Not that any of that really matters since a 4th Edition is a long way off. But when it does come time for that, I hope they go all out with it. |
maybe the first time i've agreed with you fully. if and when theres a 4th edition, i hope the creaters don't phone it in
If you're satisfied with 3rd Edition Shadowrun than there's probably no need for a fourth edition, yes. However - fully knowing that I'll probably get flamed for this statement - I think that 3rd Edition is one of the worst things that happened to Shadowrun. Granted, the rules got a lot better, but everything else went downhill from there. The book layout, the illustrations, the overall feel, the metaplot, the whole feel of the game. I started playing when 2nd Edition was the current version and I loved it. The whole dirt, the unhealthy, desperate feeling... I didn't own any books back then and when I went to get my own collection 3rd Edition was out and 2nd was nowhere to be found. (And, no, I wasn't into eBay back then). So I had to get 3rd Edition and was utterly dissappointed. As I said, they did a great job with the rules, but the rest... well...
All the grit was gone, the darkness, the dirt, the dangerous feeling. It has all become one big James Bond meets Terminator meets Lord of the Rings action movie. From my point of view it's high time for 4th Edition in order to give the SR line the major image overhaul that is needed, in my not quite so humble opinion.
The big problem again is marketing. The way I see it, SR has been turned into a kids game. They wanted to target the younger people and thus changed the line apropriately. Of course they reach more people that way. I'm not asking for FanPro to turn this into an adult game like SLA Incorporated. Just make it look less like an Anime Series, please?
People are complaining about munchkins, about careless players, about players undertaking the most stupid actions worthy of the CLUE files, about player wanting to play an albino troll ghoul with amnesia who has SURGED and is into little boys... Well, if you're looking for the reason for all this, look at recent publications! Look at the artwork, look at all these oddball ideas of inventing extra rules for metavariants, albinos, ghouls and making shapeshifters available for player characters, look at all the campaigns where a small team of runners changes the course of the world. Don't get me wrong, variety is good! I just don't think that Albinos and Metavariants deserve extra stats since that makes things complex where they don't need to be and it encourages munchkinism. And Ghouls and shapeshifters are just don't yield any good roleplaying. I've only seen bad come from that. Why am I writing all this? Because these are prime examples of the direction SR3 has been taking! A direction I don't wanna see it go.
Really, I love Shadowrun! This is why I get so aggitated about this!
And this whole thing about unifiying the rules... You are right, Kagetenshi, that it's great to have different concepts for different character types. It's great that you can have completely different archetypes and turn it into a completely new game by simply playing a mage if you're bored of always playing sammies. I'm with you so far. What's not cool is that for switching the archetype I have to learn a good 20 or so pages of intense rules. And what's even less cool is that I as a GM have to know all the rules for all the archetypes in order to stage the opposition accordingly. Right now, this is an unmanagable task. And it gets even more unmanagable when playing with new players who don't even know the rules themselves and don't own the books. I can't tell them "well, if you wanna play a rigger, buy these two books and learn the rules sections". Most newbies start to scream and run when seeing the sheer complexity of the rules. They say, "Hey, I wanna play a rigger!" and I say "sure, read this". Then they usually go "Um... what's this Dungeons & Dragons thing you where talking about...?"
I think it would be cool if you could have a central mechanic, that is only slightly altered for every archetype, so that you really can switch archetypes whenever you feel like it without needing to learn a (pretty complex) set of rules first. It's not the rules that provide the "diversity of specialty amongst SR players". It's the idea behind it. Even if magic, rigging and decking have the same or very similar rules they will still be different and they will still all be needed and the players will still need to specialize
And I wouldn't have a problem with a complete revamping of the system (though I would definately want to keep the D6-Success Mechanic)
So, once again to get some constructiveness into this post:
- partially unified and greatly simplified rules
- less comic look, more realistic and gritty
- more Shadowtalk!
- scale down the metaplot and campaigns: not so many earth shattering events, more local stuff
- much more info/sourcebooks about the everyday life of runners as well as normal people (need to know both sides...)
- please, please, please put a decent index into the back of every book (except maybe campaigns/adventures)
- not so many exotics. Please focus on fleshing out the normal stuff before introducing the oddball ideas like SURGE, Ghouls, Shapeshifters and Metavariants and before introducing another 35 guns, 50 Totems and 12 magical traditions.
Am I the only one thinking this way? Is there a chance that Shadowrun will ever head my way again? Or is it lost to the Anime Kiddies forever?
Deepest bows,
MrSandman666
All the grit was gone, the darkness, the dirt, the dangerous feeling. It has all become one big James Bond meets Terminator meets Lord of the Rings action movie. From my point of view it's high time for 4th Edition in order to give the SR line the major image overhaul that is needed, in my not quite so humble opinion.
The big problem again is marketing. The way I see it, SR has been turned into a kids game. They wanted to target the younger people and thus changed the line apropriately. Of course they reach more people that way. I'm not asking for FanPro to turn this into an adult game like SLA Incorporated. Just make it look less like an Anime Series, please?
People are complaining about munchkins, about careless players, about players undertaking the most stupid actions worthy of the CLUE files, about player wanting to play an albino troll ghoul with amnesia who has SURGED and is into little boys... Well, if you're looking for the reason for all this, look at recent publications! Look at the artwork, look at all these oddball ideas of inventing extra rules for metavariants, albinos, ghouls and making shapeshifters available for player characters, look at all the campaigns where a small team of runners changes the course of the world. Don't get me wrong, variety is good! I just don't think that Albinos and Metavariants deserve extra stats since that makes things complex where they don't need to be and it encourages munchkinism. And Ghouls and shapeshifters are just don't yield any good roleplaying. I've only seen bad come from that. Why am I writing all this? Because these are prime examples of the direction SR3 has been taking! A direction I don't wanna see it go.
Really, I love Shadowrun! This is why I get so aggitated about this!
And this whole thing about unifiying the rules... You are right, Kagetenshi, that it's great to have different concepts for different character types. It's great that you can have completely different archetypes and turn it into a completely new game by simply playing a mage if you're bored of always playing sammies. I'm with you so far. What's not cool is that for switching the archetype I have to learn a good 20 or so pages of intense rules. And what's even less cool is that I as a GM have to know all the rules for all the archetypes in order to stage the opposition accordingly. Right now, this is an unmanagable task. And it gets even more unmanagable when playing with new players who don't even know the rules themselves and don't own the books. I can't tell them "well, if you wanna play a rigger, buy these two books and learn the rules sections". Most newbies start to scream and run when seeing the sheer complexity of the rules. They say, "Hey, I wanna play a rigger!" and I say "sure, read this". Then they usually go "Um... what's this Dungeons & Dragons thing you where talking about...?"
I think it would be cool if you could have a central mechanic, that is only slightly altered for every archetype, so that you really can switch archetypes whenever you feel like it without needing to learn a (pretty complex) set of rules first. It's not the rules that provide the "diversity of specialty amongst SR players". It's the idea behind it. Even if magic, rigging and decking have the same or very similar rules they will still be different and they will still all be needed and the players will still need to specialize
And I wouldn't have a problem with a complete revamping of the system (though I would definately want to keep the D6-Success Mechanic)
So, once again to get some constructiveness into this post:
- partially unified and greatly simplified rules
- less comic look, more realistic and gritty
- more Shadowtalk!
- scale down the metaplot and campaigns: not so many earth shattering events, more local stuff
- much more info/sourcebooks about the everyday life of runners as well as normal people (need to know both sides...)
- please, please, please put a decent index into the back of every book (except maybe campaigns/adventures)
- not so many exotics. Please focus on fleshing out the normal stuff before introducing the oddball ideas like SURGE, Ghouls, Shapeshifters and Metavariants and before introducing another 35 guns, 50 Totems and 12 magical traditions.
Am I the only one thinking this way? Is there a chance that Shadowrun will ever head my way again? Or is it lost to the Anime Kiddies forever?
Deepest bows,
MrSandman666
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Basically, kill the autoreplicating nanites and everything else falls down. |
That's the problem. The corps won't go for it, and they'll find ways of making the tech controllable and capping development in that direction. However, after a while in an environment like SR, all you need is a one rogue scientist in a lab somewhere or an AI or utopist policlub to take advantage of the latest level of nanotech and break the inbuilt limitations and let the genie out of the bottle.
What I'd like to see happen next in SR:
I doubt its cost-effective, but it would really help me to have more information on how the 'everyday joe/jane' experiences life in the SR world. Its easy to see one side of the show, since we play the runners, with james bond toys and death defying adventures. I know how my character sees the world, but I have a harder time seeing how it works for the average guy. Even the great sourcebook material provided by Shadows or stuff like Year of the Comet, Seattle Sourcebook, etc, are oriented towards providing information for a character's perspective.
A further breakdown of states and such would be a benefit in my opinion. At the moment in the SR universe, I see it as a little 'unrealistic' or probably more appropriately stated: it doesn't maintain internal logical consistency, in my opinion.
Sourcebooks give the impression, with all the various info given on corps, corp security, tech advances and the like, that it should be much more diffcult to get away with crimes like Shadowrunners do. (again, my opinion). The way to combat the growing sense I have that the powers that be would become near omniscient, is to have things erupt to the point things fragment more. I think the breakdown of Fuchi and such was a good start, a shakeup on the AAA megacorp level. And the suggested coming storm of NAN nations fighting. Splinter the control of NAN and megacorps, even CAS and UCAS to a degree, and you create enough of a chaotic situation that would help give reason to why runners can actually live a decent amount of time.
I doubt its cost-effective, but it would really help me to have more information on how the 'everyday joe/jane' experiences life in the SR world. Its easy to see one side of the show, since we play the runners, with james bond toys and death defying adventures. I know how my character sees the world, but I have a harder time seeing how it works for the average guy. Even the great sourcebook material provided by Shadows or stuff like Year of the Comet, Seattle Sourcebook, etc, are oriented towards providing information for a character's perspective.
A further breakdown of states and such would be a benefit in my opinion. At the moment in the SR universe, I see it as a little 'unrealistic' or probably more appropriately stated: it doesn't maintain internal logical consistency, in my opinion.
Sourcebooks give the impression, with all the various info given on corps, corp security, tech advances and the like, that it should be much more diffcult to get away with crimes like Shadowrunners do. (again, my opinion). The way to combat the growing sense I have that the powers that be would become near omniscient, is to have things erupt to the point things fragment more. I think the breakdown of Fuchi and such was a good start, a shakeup on the AAA megacorp level. And the suggested coming storm of NAN nations fighting. Splinter the control of NAN and megacorps, even CAS and UCAS to a degree, and you create enough of a chaotic situation that would help give reason to why runners can actually live a decent amount of time.
Sandman brings up some things that are really good. I've been playing this game since the 2:nd edition came out (my GM at the time bought the BBB just days after it got to the store) and I'm still having trouble with the rules. Combat is fine, as is magic. The decker rules are a bit complex, but hardly anyone plays a decker, so there's been no need for me to learn them properly.
But the rigging and EW rules. Oh, man. They've got me stumped. I read the rules in BBB, and just got rid of the manoeuver points. My fights are already taking to long and if you're gonna add manoeuver points when you have vehicles... it just takes too long.
I wouldn't mind getting the rules simplified. My feeling is that the vehicle rules at the moment are in the same position as the decking rules when 2:nd ed was released. It's cool, but just not worth it.
And just to be an @ss. Metavariants and shapeshifters were introduced in the 2:nd edition companion.
Index! Please, pretty please. More indexing.
But the rigging and EW rules. Oh, man. They've got me stumped. I read the rules in BBB, and just got rid of the manoeuver points. My fights are already taking to long and if you're gonna add manoeuver points when you have vehicles... it just takes too long.
I wouldn't mind getting the rules simplified. My feeling is that the vehicle rules at the moment are in the same position as the decking rules when 2:nd ed was released. It's cool, but just not worth it.
And just to be an @ss. Metavariants and shapeshifters were introduced in the 2:nd edition companion.
Index! Please, pretty please. More indexing.
| QUOTE (MrSandman666) |
| more Shadowtalk! |
What do you mean? I feel that there is plenty of shadowtalk in the new books.
| QUOTE |
| - much more info/sourcebooks about the everyday life of runners as well as normal people (need to know both sides...) |
I'm with you on this one as well.
The Shadowtalk is mainly concerning the catalogues. You are right that there is plenty of Shadowtalk in scenario books like YotC or RA:S or the like. But not so much in the BBB, Man & Machine, Cannon Companion, Magic in the Shadows, Matrix, Rigger 3.... you get the idea. I liked it when you had all these little anekdotes for the weapons, cyber and vehicles and so. It's nothing major, just athmosphere.
| QUOTE (L.D) |
| And just to be an @ss. Metavariants and shapeshifters were introduced in the 2:nd edition companion. |
Um... damn I have to say that I never saw the 2nd Edition Companion.
One more thing that came to my mind:
- please move some of that content from the Companion to the BBB (Point based character creation, contact rules and examples)
- Swap that info on Spirits and Dragons for some info on critters that you are actually likely to encounter.
And one thing I want to support here:
More examples and more elaborate examples! Please!
Thanks for reminding me. Please do the index right. Once in 2nd edition a friend and I wrote a letter to FASA andout 3-4 things that were not in the index, wish I could remember what they were now. We got a response back and on one of the things we werwe told: " Why would it be in the index, It's in the table of contents" My friend, an engineer almost went ballistic when he read that.
Cool.I know what you mean, but those books were special cases. They had to quickly put out books with the rules collected from 2:nd edition. At first I had problems with 3:rd ed because the books lacked shadowtalk, but the new ones have made up for it (at least IMHO). And the 2:nd ed. BBB didn't have much shadowtalk, neither did The Grimmoire, The Shadowrun Companion 2:dn ed. nor Virtual Realities 2.0, and that's because they were (and still are) books with just rules in them. Sure, some of them had some shadowtalk, but it wasn't much (when it comes to The Companion, it had about the same (if not exactly the same) as the 3:rd ed one).
More examples yes. Absolutely. They're a big help.
One more thing that I had forgotten. At least one (or two) of my players started playing Shadowrun because of the colorful pictures of critters in BBB (2:nd ed) and the critters books of 2:nd ed. I'd like to see more of those again. They were beautiful.
Just tallied everything up, out of interest. So far, the top 11 requests are for
fluff/flavour/shadowtalk
grittier atmosphere
new tech (e.g. genetech)
more diverse tech/gear/applications for tech
artwork
Shadows of Asia
Target: Magic / Target:Astral Space
'gutterpunk'
media info
adept goodies
bigger role for government
I counted 72 different areas of requests. No doubt some people would disagree with my categorisations (like whether Target: Astral Space should be counted in with Target: Magic).
Glad I'm not the line developer for Fanpro.
edit: 62 posters offered suggestions
fluff/flavour/shadowtalk
grittier atmosphere
new tech (e.g. genetech)
more diverse tech/gear/applications for tech
artwork
Shadows of Asia
Target: Magic / Target:Astral Space
'gutterpunk'
media info
adept goodies
bigger role for government
I counted 72 different areas of requests. No doubt some people would disagree with my categorisations (like whether Target: Astral Space should be counted in with Target: Magic).
Glad I'm not the line developer for Fanpro.
edit: 62 posters offered suggestions
| QUOTE (crone) |
| Just tallied everything up, out of interest... |
Well, look, somebody's got too much time on their hands...
Wow, 7 pages worth of ranting and requesting. Good work. At some point it might be nice to have this list published, once the thread has slowed down.
Crone: Thank you very much.
72 different areas. Wow. And think about this-DSF has about what? 5000 or 6000 members? Even if I assume about 500 or more are double identities-we are still only a small part of the gaming community.
All I know is the game system obviously has a lot of versatility built into it.
A 4th Edition of Shadowrun is a tough sell for me. I agree the rulebooks could be stream lined considerably (A section on Simsense in Cannon Companion-can we say filler?) but what’s a fourth edition offer other than that?
I mean what draws Joe Average to drop another 20 to 30 bucks a book for this edition? I mean this was my dilemma when they introduced the 3rd Edition in 1997(?)-Do I stay the course with my proven fun and effective 2nd Edition books or do I try new and improved 3rd Edition books? I actually got my ass kicked out of the Shadowrun RN list after threatening to kick Bull’s ass. (What can I say I take my game seriously.) But on a serious note here people, Fan Pro has to be able to sell product-just introducing a new edition to streamline the books seems a bit overboard to me.
Why not just stay 3rd Edition but reprint future editions with more streamlined options-For instance a core book with none of the fluff-for the rules fanatics or a fluff book with no rules. I don’t know-I just hate to think of how much more money I will have to spend on a 4th Edition.
[Edit] For some of us its only 2 pages.
72 different areas. Wow. And think about this-DSF has about what? 5000 or 6000 members? Even if I assume about 500 or more are double identities-we are still only a small part of the gaming community.
All I know is the game system obviously has a lot of versatility built into it.
A 4th Edition of Shadowrun is a tough sell for me. I agree the rulebooks could be stream lined considerably (A section on Simsense in Cannon Companion-can we say filler?) but what’s a fourth edition offer other than that?
I mean what draws Joe Average to drop another 20 to 30 bucks a book for this edition? I mean this was my dilemma when they introduced the 3rd Edition in 1997(?)-Do I stay the course with my proven fun and effective 2nd Edition books or do I try new and improved 3rd Edition books? I actually got my ass kicked out of the Shadowrun RN list after threatening to kick Bull’s ass. (What can I say I take my game seriously.) But on a serious note here people, Fan Pro has to be able to sell product-just introducing a new edition to streamline the books seems a bit overboard to me.
Why not just stay 3rd Edition but reprint future editions with more streamlined options-For instance a core book with none of the fluff-for the rules fanatics or a fluff book with no rules. I don’t know-I just hate to think of how much more money I will have to spend on a 4th Edition.
[Edit] For some of us its only 2 pages.
Actually, I think there will be quite a few people who will buy 4th Edition just to see what's new or just to stay up to date. I'm one of them. Of course only IF there is something new. They'd better make sure it looks completely new (new artwork, new layout, etc) and that they have some obvious changes in there. Probably it would be a good idea to write some stuff on the back like "Now with completely streamlined and easy-to-learn rules - get into the game faster than ever!"
Apply some appealing artwork, some cool looking page design and you'll even be able to attract some completely new players who thought Shadowrun was absolutely ridiculous.
I mean, how much more likely are they to sell a 3rd Edition book than a 4th Edition book? Not very. Most people who are going to buy rulebooks now don't have any yet. Those who already have some 3rd Edition books but still need large amounts of 3rd Ed. supplements are probably only a few. After all, those people who already have their 3rd Ed. Books aren't gonna buy them again since they already have them. But at least some will buy the 4th Edition books because they don't have them yet. Collectors and people who have an urge to stay up to date (and there are more than you might think) would definately do so.
Conlcusion: If 4th Edition really is an improvement - and there is a lot to be improved - it will be bought. They managed to sell 3rd Edition, why wouldn't they manage to make a profit of a fourth Edition? I would do a lot to get a fourth Edition published (of course only if it actually incorporated the proposals from this board). As I said, I'd even be willing to help, if I can at all.
Apply some appealing artwork, some cool looking page design and you'll even be able to attract some completely new players who thought Shadowrun was absolutely ridiculous.
I mean, how much more likely are they to sell a 3rd Edition book than a 4th Edition book? Not very. Most people who are going to buy rulebooks now don't have any yet. Those who already have some 3rd Edition books but still need large amounts of 3rd Ed. supplements are probably only a few. After all, those people who already have their 3rd Ed. Books aren't gonna buy them again since they already have them. But at least some will buy the 4th Edition books because they don't have them yet. Collectors and people who have an urge to stay up to date (and there are more than you might think) would definately do so.
Conlcusion: If 4th Edition really is an improvement - and there is a lot to be improved - it will be bought. They managed to sell 3rd Edition, why wouldn't they manage to make a profit of a fourth Edition? I would do a lot to get a fourth Edition published (of course only if it actually incorporated the proposals from this board). As I said, I'd even be willing to help, if I can at all.
| QUOTE (MrSandman666) |
| Well, look, somebody's got too much time on their hands... |
Forgot I wasn't getting paid this time
.Paul: on the subject rules fanatics, less than 10% of requests dealt specifically with rules. So it doesn't seem like many people here get off on rules alone.
I definitely agree that the rigging/vehicle rules aren't very good. That optional section in R3 about making vehicle rules more like the rules for characters should be expanded to be the whole book. Two cars shooting at each other could be handled in a way very similar to two pedestrians shooting at each other, and simplfy things enormously.
I would like to see a cyberware calender.
No, not cyberbabe of the week you slobbering geeks...oh, well, maybe that too.
No, seriously, I'd like to see a list of each piece of cyberware and the date/year it was introduced on the marked in the following order.
A: Delta grade red hot almost impossible to get
B: When it was introduced as available to the common man as expensive beta grade
C: When it became available in alpha grade only to the community.
D: When every man with enough cash could by it at every streetcorner.
This would make it easier to see which year certain cyberware was available if you want to play earlier than 2063. I have a hard time believing that certain ware was as available in 2055.
No, not cyberbabe of the week you slobbering geeks...oh, well, maybe that too.
No, seriously, I'd like to see a list of each piece of cyberware and the date/year it was introduced on the marked in the following order.
A: Delta grade red hot almost impossible to get
B: When it was introduced as available to the common man as expensive beta grade
C: When it became available in alpha grade only to the community.
D: When every man with enough cash could by it at every streetcorner.
This would make it easier to see which year certain cyberware was available if you want to play earlier than 2063. I have a hard time believing that certain ware was as available in 2055.
But I've got to say this -- D20 is an epic of overly complex disfunction. By comparison, Shadowrun is a haiku.
Im pretty new to the shadowrun rpg, played the SNES game and loved it! HAve played rpg's for some 8 years or so now and so far its hard to get a good grasp of the magic, decking, and rigging rules, Im starting to learn the matrix ones, but it feels like its 3 dfiffrent game systems, wich it is, what I would like is simplified rules for atleast rigging/vehicle combat and decking, the decking rules I hear are coming wich is great, now you just need to do the same with the rigging rules and Ill be very happy. Magic I think should be a bit complicated, because making it to simple is well.. boring.
What more I would like is as some other ppl have said, a more detailed description of some of the major diffrent planes such as the white wolf book on the UMBRA.
A few detailed planes, a bunch of other planes not as much detailed but the names of them and a general description would be nice. No real new powers etc, I dont think its needed, and if you do, only add minor ones, no pocket nukes etc.
A updated version of Man and Machine.
Im not so fond of location books, sure a few location books are nice, but that should not be a priority.
No need for more guns etc, we got cannon companion, in that we can make any gun we want with just about any type of ammo.
I want high tech in a low tech appearance. Cyber arms should be bulky with alot of wiring sticking out for example. As ppl put it, make it gritty.. Sure alot of it is up to the GM but you set the over all mood of the game, dont make it into a bright and shiny world.. (ok, exadgerating a bit but you get my point I hope)
No need to include rules for PC shapeshifters, ghouls and vampires etc, sure it might be cool, but one have to decide if playing a vampire is this rpg's focus or not.
Better leave them as ST tools instead of pc munchkins.
One thing tho, be sure to include a human sized figure in all your vehicle pictures from now on, so we know how big they are, it helps alot.
As I learn more Im sure there are alot more I would like added but this is my primary concerns right now.
What more I would like is as some other ppl have said, a more detailed description of some of the major diffrent planes such as the white wolf book on the UMBRA.
A few detailed planes, a bunch of other planes not as much detailed but the names of them and a general description would be nice. No real new powers etc, I dont think its needed, and if you do, only add minor ones, no pocket nukes etc.
A updated version of Man and Machine.
Im not so fond of location books, sure a few location books are nice, but that should not be a priority.
No need for more guns etc, we got cannon companion, in that we can make any gun we want with just about any type of ammo.
I want high tech in a low tech appearance. Cyber arms should be bulky with alot of wiring sticking out for example. As ppl put it, make it gritty.. Sure alot of it is up to the GM but you set the over all mood of the game, dont make it into a bright and shiny world.. (ok, exadgerating a bit but you get my point I hope)
No need to include rules for PC shapeshifters, ghouls and vampires etc, sure it might be cool, but one have to decide if playing a vampire is this rpg's focus or not.
Better leave them as ST tools instead of pc munchkins.
One thing tho, be sure to include a human sized figure in all your vehicle pictures from now on, so we know how big they are, it helps alot.
As I learn more Im sure there are alot more I would like added but this is my primary concerns right now.
Techniligy in the game is slowly advancing...it was funny cause one day we had a 2nd and 3rd ed core book and looked at the decks and we noticed a difference in the advanced technoligy.
Now with in the future i see is less essence consuming cyberware, that means you are most likley going to see more cybered up mages.
Now with in the future i see is less essence consuming cyberware, that means you are most likley going to see more cybered up mages.
| QUOTE (crone) |
| I counted 72 different areas of requests. |
Which of course means that every request can be satisfied.
I do hope that at least some of the freelancers are reading this thread, so that it has some sort of effect. Otherwise it's just us making a list for Santa Clause.
Oooh.. I definitely have to agree with the Jopp. I think this is super for those of us who are still fans of older editions or what not. I'm thinking of starting a campaign in 2050 or 2045 and knowing when what was there would be super. HOWEVER, I see that more as a neat little supplement than a book or anything. Maybe some fans would like to take that on?
I also agree with Lucyfersam, I love the idea of improvised cyber. That right there would add a degree of grunge and grit. That could be pretty quick, a few pages, but it would absolutely add dimensions to my game.
I'd also like to see more troll Catholic schoolgirls.
I also agree with Lucyfersam, I love the idea of improvised cyber. That right there would add a degree of grunge and grit. That could be pretty quick, a few pages, but it would absolutely add dimensions to my game.
I'd also like to see more troll Catholic schoolgirls.
| QUOTE (Synner) | ||
That's the problem. The corps won't go for it, and they'll find ways of making the tech controllable and capping development in that direction. However, after a while in an environment like SR, all you need is a one rogue scientist in a lab somewhere or an AI or utopist policlub to take advantage of the latest level of nanotech and break the inbuilt limitations and let the genie out of the bottle. |
I mean kill it technically. There's no reason why self-replicating nanites need to be practically possible, at least not at the current level of technology (or any reasonably immediate tech level). I mean, sure, in a heavily-controlled environment with the right equipment, but any sort of sustainable and significant replication?
~J
| QUOTE |
| People are complaining about munchkins, about careless players, about players undertaking the most stupid actions worthy of the CLUE files, about player wanting to play an albino troll ghoul with amnesia who has SURGED and is into little boys... Well, if you're looking for the reason for all this, look at recent publications! |
As goofy as some of this stuff looks, I can promise it went into the game because people wanted it there. And if people want it and will buy it, then it'll see print. Munchkins were just as omnipresent and just as stupefying during first and second edition as they are today.
I have distinct memories of running convention games where people *had* to have their Vampire with wired reflexes. Munchkins are a part of roleplaying, game art and rule design won't stop them. And, generally, munchkins buy books.
On an unrelated note -- a lot of people seem to be praising NAGRL and SB, and requesting more books like this. IIRC, both of those books sold horribly by Shadowrun standards when they were releasaed. I'd have a hard time believing that the gaming market has changed enough to make publishing more books of this style viable.
What'd be great is if these older books could be re-released in PDF.
I forgot. SR3 needs desparately a Index for Tables and a GM Screen Revised with said Tables. A Master List of Tables and where they can be found.
That's it.
QM
That's it.
QM
A regular index, period, would be nice in all of the books. Preferably a detailed, in-depth, cross-referenced one. They seem to forget the fact that they're all effectively technical reference books, not casual books you read just once from cover to cover and never look at again.
Quiet, now. You're scaring Adam.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| But I've got to say this -- D20 is an epic of overly complex disfunction. By comparison, Shadowrun is a haiku. |
I wouldn't say this at all. d20 has many problems, chief amongst them its Borg-like mentality of compliance and whitewashing of rules. But one thing it does very well and in fact was a major design consideration was the concept of rules mastery. That is, once you've mastered one area of the rules, many other areas work in a very similar manner.
For example, let's compare ranged and melee combat in the two systems. Ranged combat in SR is a success test against a TN that varies widely based on visability, degree of cover, and other environmental considerations. There is an optional Dodge test, which if failed means the target resists damage. Melee combat is entirely different: combat is an opposed test instead of a success test, and after that there is no dodge test.
In d20 rules ranged and melee combat are pretty much the same thing: roll a d20, add in appropriate modifiers (usually Dex for ranged and Str for melee), compare to AC. Simple and easy, yes, but more importantly, once you know how one type of combat works then you can pretty easily tell how the other kind of combat will work. This is something that SR sucks at: there is no way to tell, given the rules for ranged combat, what the rules for melee combat will be. This idea of rules mastery is what makes d20 games so easy to learn and play, and is why despite their lack of realism they are so very much more popular than SR.
Despite crone's statistics, I'd be willing to wager that many if not most of the people here would loke to see the Shadowrun rules revamped with the idea of rules mastery in mind. Doing so would make the game seem more like a cohesive whole; as it stands SR seems to be about four completely different game systems (Sammyworld, Riggerworld, Deckerworld, and Magicworld). Additionally, if the game rules were made more transparent--or at least less arcane and arbitrary--then far more people would be encouraged to learn and play. Most people don't really want to bring it up, though, because frankly this is a topic for another thread.
haha, d20 is overly complex? first time i've heard that one.
and, yeah. crone's statistics are somewhat belied by the number of threads on this forum related to rules inconsistencies an inclarities (if that's even a word).
and, yeah. crone's statistics are somewhat belied by the number of threads on this forum related to rules inconsistencies an inclarities (if that's even a word).
Personally, I prefer the complex but realistic rules of SR than the quick and dirty rules of d20. After all, if I want quick and dirty, it's easy to 'forget' major parts of the SR rules and just throw some dice right quick.
I would like more similarities between the rulesets, but not at the price of losing realism.
I would like more similarities between the rulesets, but not at the price of losing realism.
Well, I haven't been around these boards for too long, but I do remember when I got the first book (I was amazed to pick this up....seemed so revolutionary at the time). Anyways, what I would really love to see........
Target: Astral Space (There were some really great articles in the Shadowland magazine that detailed certain metaplanes that could only be accessed from certain physical places i.e. -you had to project from X on earth).
Shadows over the Simple Life (
): Sorry for the tongue in cheek referance. There was an article in the Shadowrun Supplemental detailing what the Soy machines available produced and looked like. That article has helped me to add more flavor (pun intended) to my runners personal lives than you can imagine....we even did a run to steal new soy recipies (matrix run) that hadn't been released to the public yet. New personal stuff, everyday life, sim titles, what does the Trid do in the average household (is it the computer/house control/phone/etc or what?), is there dispsable clothes from cyberpunk. How about personal tech? Just look at what you carry today (cell phone, personal palm, watch, etc) What does the credstick do for you in SR, can you download programs to make it more personal (weather updates).
Tech Updates:New tech, cybergear, especially bioware. Also I have always believed that there should be more info on the everyday Matrix...not just how to hack Aztechnology, but what we use it for today expanded (communication, information gathering, phonebook, shopping, whatnot. Maybe additional add-ons for the firearm creation rules.
Shadows over the Middle East: This one would be nice, we already have some new metatypes for the regions.....so whats happening now?
More Adept Goodness: Some more powers are good, but especially expand upon the ideas for Social Adepts, and the idea for the Language adept was very inspirational.
Tech Calander: This would be a great idea, as well as dates for alpha, beta, delta and general release. Maybe some general charts for brand name cyber/bio companies (i.e. -want cybereyes...get shiawanese eagleoptics).
Thats all I can think of for now
Target: Astral Space (There were some really great articles in the Shadowland magazine that detailed certain metaplanes that could only be accessed from certain physical places i.e. -you had to project from X on earth).
Shadows over the Simple Life (
): Sorry for the tongue in cheek referance. There was an article in the Shadowrun Supplemental detailing what the Soy machines available produced and looked like. That article has helped me to add more flavor (pun intended) to my runners personal lives than you can imagine....we even did a run to steal new soy recipies (matrix run) that hadn't been released to the public yet. New personal stuff, everyday life, sim titles, what does the Trid do in the average household (is it the computer/house control/phone/etc or what?), is there dispsable clothes from cyberpunk. How about personal tech? Just look at what you carry today (cell phone, personal palm, watch, etc) What does the credstick do for you in SR, can you download programs to make it more personal (weather updates). Tech Updates:New tech, cybergear, especially bioware. Also I have always believed that there should be more info on the everyday Matrix...not just how to hack Aztechnology, but what we use it for today expanded (communication, information gathering, phonebook, shopping, whatnot. Maybe additional add-ons for the firearm creation rules.
Shadows over the Middle East: This one would be nice, we already have some new metatypes for the regions.....so whats happening now?
More Adept Goodness: Some more powers are good, but especially expand upon the ideas for Social Adepts, and the idea for the Language adept was very inspirational.
Tech Calander: This would be a great idea, as well as dates for alpha, beta, delta and general release. Maybe some general charts for brand name cyber/bio companies (i.e. -want cybereyes...get shiawanese eagleoptics).
Thats all I can think of for now
Sandman - With a new (re)print run of SR3 hot off the presses, I wouldn’t hold my breath for an SR4 in the next couple of years. In fact Rob has stated numerous times that a Fourth edition is not currently in the plans. Anyway, it’s highly unlikely the system would be redone from the ground up and its far more likely the upgrade would be similar to the one from SR2 to SR3.
It’s also been said several times already, on this thread and elsewhere, that MrJLBB should include streamlined and simpler mechanics for some game systems for those who want them.
Artwork - This is one thing I can’t get my head around is people still bringing up the artwork issue. Has anyone bothered to look at the latest books (the recent ones done solely under FanPro) before making these comments? Or are people still back on YotC and New Seattle?
I’ve just been reading SoE and IMHO it contains some of the best MacDougall (those atmospheric UNL pics), and Prescott (want “desolate and gritty”? Try the Kaper pic on p.116) stuff I’ve seen both in terms of style and subject matter. My hat’s off to Eric Desideriu (best SR work so far), whoever did the Spain chapter frontispiece (looks like Berting but he isn’t in the credits) which invokes the “Silent Siege” of Asturias by the forests perfectly, and whoever did those two great Italian chapter illos. That’s not to say I’m overly fond of all the artists’ styles but I fail to see anything “cartoony” about the art in this book. Sure there’s art of varying quality, but that’s true of any gameline, and at least here it’s faithful to the contents and style of the writing.
And going back to SSG and DotSW (even given the latter’s subject matter) I can’t really find anything over the top or “cartoony” either (unless people are referring to the drawing style rather than the contents of the picture, though most of the posts above suggest the opposite).
Style will always be a question of personal taste. There are people who like Laubenstein’s and Baxa’s work, and people who would prefer to see SR done solely in Tim (Never drawn a troll) Bradstreet’s gritty photorealistic style – so the best the developers can do is cater to as many people as possible and respect the spirit and atmosphere of the written material.
xythlord - Your wish (and everybody else who's expressed the same interest) is to be granted soon enough. The next SOTA book will include the sort of thing you're asking for (plus much more) and might be out as soon as GenCon (Spirits willing).
It’s also been said several times already, on this thread and elsewhere, that MrJLBB should include streamlined and simpler mechanics for some game systems for those who want them.
Artwork - This is one thing I can’t get my head around is people still bringing up the artwork issue. Has anyone bothered to look at the latest books (the recent ones done solely under FanPro) before making these comments? Or are people still back on YotC and New Seattle?
I’ve just been reading SoE and IMHO it contains some of the best MacDougall (those atmospheric UNL pics), and Prescott (want “desolate and gritty”? Try the Kaper pic on p.116) stuff I’ve seen both in terms of style and subject matter. My hat’s off to Eric Desideriu (best SR work so far), whoever did the Spain chapter frontispiece (looks like Berting but he isn’t in the credits) which invokes the “Silent Siege” of Asturias by the forests perfectly, and whoever did those two great Italian chapter illos. That’s not to say I’m overly fond of all the artists’ styles but I fail to see anything “cartoony” about the art in this book. Sure there’s art of varying quality, but that’s true of any gameline, and at least here it’s faithful to the contents and style of the writing.
And going back to SSG and DotSW (even given the latter’s subject matter) I can’t really find anything over the top or “cartoony” either (unless people are referring to the drawing style rather than the contents of the picture, though most of the posts above suggest the opposite).
Style will always be a question of personal taste. There are people who like Laubenstein’s and Baxa’s work, and people who would prefer to see SR done solely in Tim (Never drawn a troll) Bradstreet’s gritty photorealistic style – so the best the developers can do is cater to as many people as possible and respect the spirit and atmosphere of the written material.
xythlord - Your wish (and everybody else who's expressed the same interest) is to be granted soon enough. The next SOTA book will include the sort of thing you're asking for (plus much more) and might be out as soon as GenCon (Spirits willing).
When I had referred to 'cartoony' before, I should have given some specific examples of ones in the current BBB that I like and that I don't. I liked the Weapons Specialist, but thought the Orc Tribal Shaman looked cartoony. Other people may disagree, and I'm willing to yield to the general consensus, whatever that is.
The artwork in the BBB dates back to at least 1998 and FASA (and yes, it is too expensive to redo the book with new art). Let's get over it. If you're going to judge FanPro's approach to artwork (present and future), do so based on the stuff it's put out not what it's inherited from the previous developers - and don't get me wrong there's stuff there to critique but the purpose of this thread is to discuss where you would like to see Shadowrun going as compare to where it now stands. There's no point in looking for examples of things that should change, when those have already changed (for better or worse). Pointing to stuff which wasn't even done under FanPro's watch is even less productive, wouldn't you say?
We've already beaten this dead horse way too much.
My intent was not to complain about what we've got right now. My original post included a request for art that followed a realistic (versus cartoony) style. Someone asked for a clarification of what that meant and I tried to give specific examples of what I like.
My intent was not to complain about what we've got right now. My original post included a request for art that followed a realistic (versus cartoony) style. Someone asked for a clarification of what that meant and I tried to give specific examples of what I like.
As we're talking about art, I would like to say that Fanpro must continue to publish illustrations from a wide array of artistic styles. The problem with photo realistic art is that there is no place for exploration. When you offer to the artist a complete freedom, it helps in the end to bring different aspects of the Shadowrun world. So with the more artists with various styles there will be in books, more wider will be our view toward the world.
| QUOTE |
| Shadows over the Simple Life ( ): Sorry for the tongue in cheek referance. There was an article in the Shadowrun Supplemental detailing what the Soy machines available produced and looked like. That article has helped me to add more flavor (pun intended) to my runners personal lives than you can imagine....we even did a run to steal new soy recipies (matrix run) that hadn't been released to the public yet. New personal stuff, everyday life, sim titles, what does the Trid do in the average household (is it the computer/house control/phone/etc or what?), is there dispsable clothes from cyberpunk. How about personal tech? Just look at what you carry today (cell phone, personal palm, watch, etc) What does the credstick do for you in SR, can you download programs to make it more personal (weather updates). |
A lot of what you've listed is in Sprawl Survival Guide, released in 2003.
In fact, it almost looks like you were describing the book.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (xythlord @ Jul 30 2004, 07:31 PM) |
| Tech Updates:Also I have always believed that there should be more info on the everyday Matrix...not just how to hack Aztechnology, but what we use it for today expanded (communication, information gathering, phonebook, shopping, whatnot. |
And a lot of this is already in the (IMHO) excelent and often overlooked Target: Matrix.
Target: Matrix was a pretty fun book, yes, I agree.
What I'd like to see are rules for creating/admining Matrix hosts. Not so much the stats, but the nuts and bolts, availabilities and such, rather like Matrix did for decks/terminals.
| QUOTE (MrSandman666) |
| - Swap that info on Spirits and Dragons for some info on critters that you are actually likely to encounter. |
No offense man... but knowing what my shaman can conjure is a heck of a lot more important to me than the stats for a Hell Hound or something.
I would love to see Target: Astral Space as well.
Our game is huge on the ED crossovers, but I wouldn't want to see a book on them- for one thing, so many people hate them, and for another, I really enjoy the hunting for connections in shadowtalk and such.
But, I really do love there being such crossover pieces inside stories and plots that don't _need_ them. You can have plenty of fun with Celedyr without knowing what Harly and OQ were talking about regarding his sire. So what I'd like to see is more little comments and hints from Harly, OQ, other dragons, other big players- but ones that just add another level that you don't _need_ to something that stands on its own.
I also wouldn't mind seeing cyberlimbs become worthwhile.
Our game is huge on the ED crossovers, but I wouldn't want to see a book on them- for one thing, so many people hate them, and for another, I really enjoy the hunting for connections in shadowtalk and such.
But, I really do love there being such crossover pieces inside stories and plots that don't _need_ them. You can have plenty of fun with Celedyr without knowing what Harly and OQ were talking about regarding his sire. So what I'd like to see is more little comments and hints from Harly, OQ, other dragons, other big players- but ones that just add another level that you don't _need_ to something that stands on its own.
I also wouldn't mind seeing cyberlimbs become worthwhile.
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