I always read about it, I always hear about it and it's just not right.
Magic is powerful, but it has it's limitations and drawbacks.

You always here about "Oh ya well he quickens these 3 spells and then the thing the thing and now he's unstoppable" or very similar BS and frankly, that's just not viable in Seattle.

So to all you GMs out there who feel they've lost control because they're mages are too powerful on account of the armada of spells on them, well, listen up.

A spell is PLAINLY visible from astral space. Each spell has it's own form, so a guy walking around with three spells on him is also walking around with those 3 spells astral forms. The force of the spell may not affect how bright the form is but the form IS there and it is CLEARLY visible to anyone with astral perception.

An ascensing roll is needed to determine the force or even whether the force is greater than the mages own magic rating. However, there are intrinsic penalties to walking around with spells quickened or anchored or sustained for that matter.

For one thing, well you're walking around with a spell on and everyone (with astral perception) knows it. So what you ask? Well other than clearly indicating you're a spell slinger to anyone looking aside, all spells, spirits and foci with a force of 3 or greater are illegal. (8-F)T which carries a penalty of a 10 000 fine and 1 year in prison.

So before you start walking around with an armada of spells quickened and anchored on foci, please remember that it's basically the same as a sam walking around with his assault rifle on his shoulder, 24 hours a day, and at least in the games I play, that'll get you killed or locked up in a damn hurry.

Sunday.

I'll take deliberate masking for $500 Alex


Curugul

ps. In a game where quickened spells are treated like that, there's a second easy fix... use sustaining foci instead. Yes, this makes mages able to be ambushed more easily, but it frankly does jack to their power on most runs.

Deliberate masking for 500? I'd take it for 10 000 if I were you, you're gonna need it to pay the fine.

First, that requires an initiate with masking, not hard at all, my shaman is a rank 1 initiate and the first thing he took was masking, too useful to be able to be dual while not looking like it.

However, masking can only cover you and your grade in force of spells or foci.

Using sustaining foci won't help. If the focus is Force 3 or greater and is bound to you, active or not, it has a clearly visible astral form and it's still illegal.

Which leaves deliberate masking. Well that won't help you AT ALL. Deliberate masking is a conscious action to "tighten" an existing astral mask. Which in no way allows you to extend your astral mask to things beyond it's scope, so unless you CAN extend your mask to cover something, strengthening a non existent mask won't help.

So you can extend your mask to cover a total of your grade in force of spell or foci and you have the option to focus and strengthen this mask. How does this get around anything?

Sunday.

Another quick note for you non-GM's out there.... visibility of a spell is still dependant on being seen (LOS). And unlike an Assault Rifle which does NOT have a P for Permit on it's legality rating, a spell is legal at ANY Force if you have a Permit.

Cost for a permit for a Force 6 sustained spell:
Deadly Drain: 600
Serious Drain: 300
Moderate Drain: 60
Light Drain: 30

So make sure to allocate your starting towards some Permits, just in case.

Sphynx

Again, not really happening.

Go take another look at the rules for permits. I direct you to the very first line which pretty much well says it all.

" Realistically, Legality and Shadowrunning don't mix. "

It pretty much goes downhill from there. Your shadowrunners really shouldn't be able to produce the requirements nor have a valid reason to have such foci.

But let's say, they have an iron tight Alias, and that alias though careful maneuvering and whatever means, gets everything he or she needs to get that permit. Great! Well that's the permit for the focus, a sustaining focus you say? Excellent so you're a mage then eh? Well you'll want a permit for all your illegal spells or at the very least for the spell you plan to use with the sustaining focus, right? Well then you're going to have to register that spell, don't mind us while me take a print of your astral signature, just part of the permit process, you know paperwork!

Oh I'm sorry, someone having your astral signature on file might cause you a few headaches while living your illegal life? Well, that's ok, look at that shiny focus you're wearing, ain't it purty?

Sunday.

Uhm.... I wasn't talking about foci. I was talking about Spell Permit. Those are the prices for walking around with those spells.

My PC has all his spells registered, and is actually a law abiding citizen. I've done a few runs, but never ever something that'd be blatantly illegal, so I don't even care if people see my signature. I guess it depends on how you play the game.

Lets see, started out hitting a place out side of seattle that was involved in Toxic Magic. That got us entertwined into a mess with Chicago (whichstill is and always will be Bug City in our games) where we got stuck for a few months. Came back and followed clues that led us to some new Dragon in Denver who paid us handsomely to take care of some Atzlan issues, which led us into a merc type work in the Amazonian areas, and have only recently gotten back to Seattle 2 games ago. Been working with LoneStar since then to capture a rather nasty group of Runners who think the idea of Running is killing everything in site.

You want my Permit, here you go. Want my Astral Signature, here you go. Now you show me your liscense and registration please.

Seriously, what's the big deal of being on file, just don't break the law! Or if you do... do it against someone who's got more to gain from not reporting anything than visa versa.

The biggest mistake I see in most RPGs is that players want to be criminals, if you going to walk around as an "astral beacon", then stay cool with the law. I've got LoneStar's back ANY DAY of the week, I double dog dare anyone to fuck with them when I'm around...

Sphynx

I have a realistic question here. For the average joe, anything with a force of over 3 is illegal, yeh? Done. This means that in Seattle, only 1% of the population is magically active, and about 50% of that is actually able to astrally percieve or project. This means roughly 15,000 people in Seattle can astrally percieve or project.


Now, how many magically active individuals have been snatched up by Universities, Corps, private security agencies around the city, or have otherwise gotten permits for their heinous shit that they have up (to quicken them on Joe Corp, their boss, as a favor... Or say, because they work for City Water and Power, and have to go into the north end of Puyallup to repair lines, and need some sheilding against the rampant gang activity there). Now, of those left - be they Lone Star or whoever guards your city of choice - how many of them have the time and wherewithal to stop random joes on the street and inquire about their permits being in order? And how many mages are on FRTs, as opposed to walking the beat?

In Seattle, there are probably about 50-100 full time shamans and mages employed by Lone Star that aren't on-call as FRT combat mages, detectives embroiled in intruige, or used as forensics experts. In a city of 3 million, they just plain do NOT have the time to stop everyone they see with high-powered spells up, simply because in corporate circles, the number of quickened spells on important people vastly outnumbers the amount of mages casting said spells. And what if they make life difficult for someone that *does* have their permits in order, and said guy works for someone important who can talk to the LS Mage's boss? Maybe get pay docked, or have him assigned to some crappy detail he hates working?

No, folks, I think the chances of dropping through the cracks as far as legality is concerned is quite high. The chances of going unnoticed, unhunted by curious corps/maignant magical forces is significantly higher than your chance of going to jail.

Your stats are just a wee bit off Adarael.

The number of Beat Cops out on patrol who can Astrally perceive is directly proportional to the dislike a GM has with sustained spells.

Seriously, they are good ideas for GMs who don't like that sort of behaviour. I just prefer our GM who adapts to our behavior instead of trying to force it.

Sphynx

As much as I would squish Sphynx in my game (sorry man) he did nail the important point on the head here:

It all depends on how you play the game.

In our games, hed get squished, becase we tend to have a "in the dystopian shadows of a corporate world" bent happening, where the runners are illegal simple by existing, and paid by the corps to do dirty work. If one of our guys was on file, *and then was tagged as part of a job* hed be hunted down or locked away unless he acted fast to fade away. Nothing personal, just the machine would eat you =)

But, like he and I said, thats all in how you play the game. Yea, I think having a billion quickened spells is silly, because it would be extremly difficult to operate on our kinds of runs like that. But if youre doing the kinda things he describes, maybe its not such a hinderence. Astral liscense in chicago? Hmm... Astral issues with Aztlan? Nobody likes them anyhow... Never messed with the law in Seattle? Its possible you could plausibly maintain a cover idenity (or a real one) if all your work was out of town. Again, Im not endorsing it either way, just pointing out that what works for some doesnt work for all.

sunday gamer, you're mistaken. deliberate masking can cover as much Force in foci and active spells as you can hit with a deliberate masking attempt at that TN (force 4 focus + force 4 quickened spell = TN 8). this is explained under "Masking Foci and Spells", MitS pg 76.

on the other hand, deliberate masking is an exclusive magical action, which means you can't cast any spells or summon any spirits--or even, i believe, command your existing spirits--while doing it. (given that doing any of the above would make your masking moot, anyway.)

there is allso the fact that its not only mages and shamans (and any adept with astral perception) that knows whats going on in the astral, do not forget about dual natured beings and spirits, both will atleast react to that walking beacon of light (i recall a description of someone with 2-3 sustained spells on a football stadion being visible to anyone else trying to look at the area astraly). many mages in the security enviroment will use theyre downtime ot set up spirit guards (locked on partrol with karma) and wards (and contact of quickend spell vs wards is bad for spell!). and dont come talking about the fact that the wizard only have to sync his aura with the ward, to do that he must know the ward is there and that means opening himself up the astral space (hello spirits). oh and btw, anyone know the purely astral speed of a spirit? its damn fast!

Spirit: Oh, hello too mage! care to join us? snicker, snicker

and that requires for the magican to go head to head with the spirts summoner, enjoy (those security mages are no university pushovers, most should match or better most runners). in any case you just warned security that the facility is under attack! expect magical and physicla ecurity to drop by asap!

The whole forceof a spell making itillagal is wack. It should bebased on what the spell does.knowing how to heal people should not be a crime, nor teaching people to heal people, butslay should be at any force level....

No offense taken White Dwarf, but I do have to say that in our Games, you characters would probably get squished too.

Seriously, I hear all about these great magic defenses, from high-initate mages with mega spirits/wards etc which in our games only happens at AA or AAA types, or a lucky A. But then also hear how the non-magic types do well. Where is the mundane security?

Try to stealth run a corp that has that kinda magic security. Fight the vibration detectors on the ground (everyone got traceless walk or something?) the Security Rigger with his backup running Security Drones on the premises and a Red Zone matrix with the same number of supprt Deckers that you have Mages (deckers are, after all, alot less exspensive) the ultra sound detectors, the Army of Security Guards and the Rating 8+ Maglocks you have to overcome.

You think if you can 'sneak' past all that mundane defense, a mage type can't figure out how to get past a few wards/spirits and maintain his stealth?

Now read the story in the book, walking through the front door practically with Improved Invis and enough guards to level city block.

Also look at the number of Mages in a population and the percentage that work for corp and the percentage of that which should be initiates and the percentage of that which can summon spirits, cast spells and the percentage of THAT group which are awake at the hour you hit a place.

I'm personally don't object to good magic defense that prevents a stealth entrance, but do you guys balance it by doing the same on the mundane level, just better (since it's cheaper and more common)? You honestly think that you could stealth into a place that a sustained spell couldn't? Take out the Rigger(s) and Decker(s) before they can raise an alarm? That's what I usually do with the mages, I personally make sure there's nothing to raise an alarm when I stealth a place, and I don't enter a place that I'm not ready to walk straight out of without my objective if I think my stealth didn't work.

Anyhows, guess I'm rambling now.

Sphynx

I'd argue that enforcement of illegality would be proportional to:

a) the percentage of law enforcement personnel capable of catching it;
b) the percentage of common citizenry both capable of catching it and willing to do something about it;
c) the blatancy of the magical effect;
d) the harm to others caused by the magical effect;
e) the environment in which the magical effect is created;
f) the reputation of the caster;
g) law enforcement's familiarity with the spell signature;
h) the determination of existing enemies with resources such as to catch it (not necessarily themselves!) and to act on that catching;
i) the caster's connections.

As one example, the assassin PC I mentioned leads a double life. In one life, he's a respected citizen, independent business owner (magical security), and registered mage. In the other, he commands upwards of 1 M for specialised hits. (These aren't your usual hit and runs.)

As with the vast majority of my Awakened PCs, he chose masking first (pregame in fact, the one and only time I have ever initiated pregame), and is more than a bit anal about erasing his magic signature each and every time ... except once.

His signature is probably registered with the university from which he obtained his magical credentials (MIT&T), and possibly with the Boston police. He hires a couple of students to set wards and conjure Force 2 air elementals to protect gated communities - let their magic signatures be the ones always floating around. Once, deliberately, he broke his own rule: cast an "illegal" healing spell to mend a boy's broken arm. Do you think anyone from this upstanding community he has so carefully cultivated would turn him in?

Edit:

And magical security exists precisely to keep your kind out

You can do plenty with mundane security to keep mages in check, afterall, they usually lack the technical and physical skills the mundanes are using to sneak about. Basic security like laser trips and pressure pads can only be worked around with magic if you spot them. Since IMG mages spend much of their time on the job in perception, to keep an eye out for watchers/elementals and to ensure their foci and spells dont trip wards, such mundane security might not be spotted by the mage despite his usually high intelligence. Even if he does spot it, or it's pointed out by another team member, he probably hasn't high enough athletics, stealth or quickness to avoid triggering the device anyway - in which case he'll use a spell to get around it, or force the tech wiz in the team to deactivate the sensor, both of these cost time, the former in cleaning up his astral signiture, the latter in deactivating it, something with it's own inherent risks.

Things like that force the character to spend his karma on skills, and prevent him being the focus of the group - not to mention giving the rest of the group something to mock "ooh the big bad mage couldn't get past a crappy little pressure pad..."

Astral security can on the other hand be used to prevent mundane infiltration, so it's worth remembering that most mages are hired for astral protection for the rest of the group, they're there to look out for watchers and elementals, and provide spell defence, spell defence being the big equaliser in cutting down a Mage's Sorcery dice that make his magic so potent. Make sure the mage knows that, and use astral security measures in combination with mundane security - just because magic and technology don't generally get on too well normally, doesn't mean that having a pressure pad on the floor behind the door means the doorway can't have a ward across it.

So far as quickened spells go, the argument has been made, you have to be a high grade initiate to be able to hide the big ones, and since you're supposed to be helping the group hide from magical security, the rest of the team wont appreciate it when you give them away. The exception I suppose is increased reflexes, but most people house rule that, and those that don't don't have a problem with the spell in the first place.

Another thing about permits.... Just because you have a permit for Seattle, it doesn't mean that same permit is good for Vancouver, Boston, Japan, et all; just as a carry permit for a handgun in Florida doesn't mean shit in L.A.

And who says permits have to have the same availability from region to region, or even be available in some regions?

As a mage, do you *really* want all your spells listed and registered, where a decent decker can hack in and download them, and sell them to your enemies who can then custom tailor an attack designed to render your mage useless?

Do you really want that info to be passed along from gov't to gov't? Who knows, you might just step off a plane in Japan (or other area) and immediately be arrested just for knowing those spells (never mind actually using them), all thanks to some idiot clerk who accidently emailed your file worldwide.

Oh, and easy ways to screw up mages: an NPC character with high willpower, body and intelligence, has Magic Resistance 4 (meaning your invisibility spells are now 8's to affect him), with spell defence and shielding dice (which also add to the target number for spells to be effective against the shielded target).

The poor mage can throw anything they want at the NPC, and be as effective as a flyswatter against a troll.

Sure, but going to your local Japan Consulate before you leave to gain a temporary permit isn't a problem. You guy should try playing someone who actually tries to abide by the law, it makes running alot easier I think.

Do I mind if anyone in the world knows my spells? Not at all. Do I care if the custom tailor an attack purely for my character? Heh, I think they all do that anyhows, just based on the GM's knowledge... but actually, I'd be honored. I would just try to be crafty enough to not fall into a trap made for me.

What you're failing to mention though, is that the same rules apply to such things as Cyberware. Which is better? Legally entering a country with temporary permits (after all, since you can't be expected to forget spells, a temporary visa should cover your legalities), and being kept under a watchful eye, or entering a country illegally with a bunch of cyberware you have assigned to a fake SIN which happens to fail the resistance check in another country. You think they'll just deport you back? I'll stick to legal anyday, get my task done and try to be gone before fingers can be pointed.

Sphynx

Couple things.

On deliberate masking, I was of course, mistaken and it is in fact possible to you to extend it above and beyond the scope of your grade. However, based on it's status as an exclusive action and the actual rules for it, which aren't particularly kind. Roll your grade in dice vs the total force and every 2 successes reduces their successes by 1. Can get you by a tight spot, but still not a viable thing to be doing anytime you're in public.

Sphynx, there are exceptions to every rule. The entire thrust of this game is the illegal life, that's the whole point of shadowrun.

I urge you again to take a look at the permit rules. Now take a look at everything a guy needs to GET a permit, including a valid reason to have it in the first place. They are HIGHLY counter culture to shadowrunning. Basically you're saying "You can have a permit for your spells, you just need to not be a shadowrunner." You need:

a valid SIN.
proof of employment.
A valid reason for having it.

Then there are the rolls, which aren't really hard. However, if you've fulfilled the above criteria, you're not really a shadowrunner are you?

So yes, if your PCs all stop being Shadowrunners then yes, they can get permits (after they get jobs and a reason and blah blah blah).

I'm unfortunately playing in and running a shadowrun game, in which my players are called upon to run the shadows, and all the happy illegal activities that go with it. Permits are NOT an option.

Also, please note that ANY permit, covers possession and transport. Anytime you use the stuff (i.e. shoot someone with a registered firearm) you are going to be involved in a police investigation, to ensure it was self defense, it WAS self defense right? Course this assumes someone gives a crap that person is dead, nonetheless, you get the point.

So again, yes, if you wish to jump through all the hoops, become a corporate employee and register all your spells, provide a valid reason and your signature and essentially give up your ability to be a shadowrunner, then YES, you can have all those permits.

Giving up shadowrunning is not an option for me or anyone I know, we're shadowrunners, it's WHAT WE DO!!

Sunday.

PS: Adarael, it's anything wth force 3 OR higher. 2 is the highest you can get leaglly and this does NOT cover combat spells which are just plain illegal.

Half and half, maybe? The types of environments and flavours of individual games constitute a spectrum, but what all parts of that spectrum have in common is that Shadowrun is designed to work in that deniable shadow world where the lines blur and illegal actions can become legit means to an end. One may play (or try to play) within the law, one may have a SIN, one may even be registered as working for a (legitimate!) law enforcement agency (which licences may not be recognised even one step outside their jurisdiction) - but each and every shadowrunner has in common the active probability of at some point skirting, bending, spindling, folding, mutilating, or even breaking that law, yes?

Sorry, Intelligence does have bearing here... they are what sustained spells are resisted with. I mentioned Body and Willpower in reference to other messages on this topic.

You're correct, magic resistance just gives you extra dice to resist with, but Shielding INCREASES your target numbers for the spell to be effective. Grade 4 initiate? Add 4 to the target numbers for the spell to be effective.

SR3: pg 195: All indirect illusion spells are resisted with intelligence.

Even though Invisibility/Silence/Stealth etc are cast on you, the Target of the spell is always the viewer, not the subject of the spell, hence the spell resistance test.

MiTS, Page 50:For detection and illusion spells, unwilling targets (targets who are unaware of the spell) ALWAYS resist.

So this is why I always make my mages record their rolls for sustained spells. The mages eight successes on TN 4 on a force 6 Imp. Inv. may suddenly drop to one success against someone who is Shielded (TN 8, if Grade 4 initiate is doing the shielding).

So with magic resistance (which only affects spells), INT of 4, spell defense and shielding, an NPC can easily have 20+ dice to resist a spell. The funniest part is, the sneaking, invisible mage doesn't even know his spell is having no effect.

Actually Sphynx those are the rules for the cops recognizing something as illegal, that's his "police procedures" roll to know whether or not he's going to come over there and hassle you.

The astral form of the spell is clearly visible. Which doesn't mean that the mage cop who sees you will automatically come over, but he will see the spell. Also, if your spell happens to be higher than his magic rating and he makes an ascensing test, he won't need police procedure, since he'll know full well any spell with a rating higher than his magic is very illegal.

Sunday.

Was it in the SSG shadowtalk that a runner was explaining how they got away from Lone Star - almost literally red-handed yet! - by explaining to the cops how badly their actions were going to embarrass Knight Errant? Rules and tables in isolation don't cover all situations.

The biggest detriment to having a valid SIN/permits is regulation. There are rules to follow in the use of your equipment/spells, and violating those can get you fined/jailed/fired/permits revoked. That's why most 'runners go the fully illegal route. Just do the job and get the hell away.

SINners, though, usually have to report back to someone after the job's done. Either a corp, local law enforcement or at least the IRS. Sure, you can run the shadows with a SIN, but you'll spend a lot of RP time filling out paperwork and getting grilled by Lone Star or corp officers.

That can actually make for fun scenarios. Imagine a 'running group working for a legit bounty hunter company, or private investigations. Some of their 'techniques' would need to be curtailed ("no, you can't take a Panther cannon with us!"), but that adds an element of planning and fast-talk to the game as well.

Ok...I'd like to try and put a stop to this "Legal Runner" nonsense.

From page 10 of SR3 under the heading "What Runners Do". The first sentence is:

"Shadowrunners commit crimes, usually for money."

A "Corporate Runner" as you describe it, is really a "Corporate Security Specialist" or "Corporate Assault Squad Member", not runners. If they are "Corporate Runners" then they are hired by the corporation to do "runs in the shadows" - which means illegal runs for which the corporation does not want to be involved in. A corporation cannot say "Give him a permit for his Fireball 12 because he has to make a run against Ares Macrotech tonight (at least in our campaign they can't). Why? Because that would link the corporation to the shadowrunner, and if the runner got caught on a SHADOW run (ie. doing illegal things and breaking laws for money), then the corporation would take their share of the blame. Shadowrun's generally _need_ anonymity to be called such. To quote page 10, SR3 again: "When a corporation or other sponsor needs someone to do their dirty work, they look to the shadows. As "deniable assets" runners make advantageous - and expendable - tools."

So I don't mind that we all play differently, but shadowrunning is by DEFINITION illegal. If you do "nice legal runs" then you are not a shadowrunner. You may be a mercenary, you might be a security consultant, but you are not a shadowrunner.

Nova

There's always the option of using a good fake SIN to aquire any permits a character might desire.

As Fortune just said, their is no need to have a SIN and actually reasons to get a permit, sure it's harder, but it is possible to get a fake ID that includes permits for whatever spells you have.

As for walking around with non-active sustaining foci, I really see no reason why anyone would notice them. Nowhere in the description of foci does it say they have any astral presence that extends beyond the physical object, which means that if that physical focus is inside of something, say your pocket, so it the astral presence of that focus, and thus it is not visible as a focus in astral space. An active sustaining focus is of course a different story as it is obvious the spell is there and it is connected to the focus. So, unless a runner either has the focus activated or is being fully searched (in which case they are probably already in trouble), there is no reason a cop using astral perception should notice anything.

Couple things.

1) Unless you are planning to ward that jacket, it has no astral presence, hence, it wouldn't stop anyone from seing the focus, which, whether active or not, if bound to you, is astrally active. I'm looking for where it says physical objects impede astral perception but everything I read seems to indicate the contrary, save for Astral projection which apparently uses sight and sound simultaneously with astral perception. Which makes for a strange situation, as astrally projecting character would not see the focus, but an astrally perceiving character would never even see the jacket, or anything without an astral presence. Kinda confusing really.

2) You could do this using a fake SIN but it's gonna have to be one hell of a fake SIN and where's your fake SIN going to get the kind of legal employment needed for a permit? Either he uses a false astral signature, which will get found out if anyone actually tries to verify the magical identity of the SIN's owner, or you use your actual signature at which point and time, you're going to get traced back to that ID and the corp that hired you is going to get in trouble.

Again, all depends on the game your in or run.

Sunday.

Oh, the character would be able to see the jacket, just as they see walls and furniture and whatnot. The character could also poke their head right through the (unwarded) jacket and see what's underneath. Does the existence of the ability mean they're going to do this with each and every person they see? (Kinky ...)

I believe you're right about active v. inactive foci being perceived as foci, Fortune. However, as with nearly all things, they would continue to have a "shadow" existence on the astral plane, even inactive - although they probably would not be recognised as foci. If they are successfully masked, then the masking would hide what they would appear as in their current state of use. If the character activates them, then (obviously) they'd be recognisable - but again only if the masking is penetrated. The jacket is a purely physical barrier to seeing them either active or inactive (in the same way as a wall) - takes nothing to penetrate in and of itself, but you'd have to think to look.

So, Nova. Is that how you guys play, just go to every game and repeatedly plan how to infiltrate and extract, rinse and repeat?

Kinda losses that whole campaign feel doesn't it?

We do typical Runs, but hell, that's maybe 1 in 5 to 10 games. Of course our runs end up being World-Saving events which I suppose isn't all that realistic either. Destroy the largest Hive in Chicago, Destroy a cabal of Toxic followers, Save a Dragon's hoop, etc, etc.

I agree, if you're in a non-campaign kinda game where you repeatedly do ShadowRuns in Seattle, the whole Sustaining thing could be out of whack. I think I've only 3 times needed to 'stealth' past a Ward, and all 3 times the owner of the Ward was aware, just unable to set off the alarm (thanks to our Rigger, some ECM and wire clippers).

However, once again I get a bit off topic, and I apologize.

And Talia, you can't astrally perceive through a jacket, and poking your head through sounds a bit more like projection, indicating a pre-belief that the item is there, save the time and just open the jacket up manually.

Sphynx

> So, Nova. Is that how you guys play, just go to every game and repeatedly plan how > to infiltrate and extract, rinse and repeat?

I don't believe I said anything like that at all. I simply said that a shadowrun is by definition illegal. Therefore a shadowrunner is by definition a criminal. This comes straight from the book, and in no way infers any form of homogeneity in the campaign I play in.


I suspect the line you had a problem with is "So I don't mind that we all play differently, but shadowrunning is by DEFINITION illegal. If you do "nice legal runs" then you are not a shadowrunner. You may be a mercenary, you might be a security consultant, but you are not a shadowrunner.". What I should have said is "If you do ONLY "nice legal runs" then you are not a shadowrunner". Howzat?

Like it or not, cannon (in Shadowrun and for the most part cyberpunk as a whole) is that shadowrun's are illegal activities. I did not say that we, as runners, must ALWAYS do illegal activities, but when you are doing something legal, I don't believe you are doing a shadowrun, nor do I believe for that time you are a runner. My character in his downtime is a bodyguard. Note...not a runner but a bodyguard. Bodyguarding is legal (I have a permit). If I was on a bodyguarding job and someone asked me what I was doing I would not say "I'm on a run" because I'm not.

You don't have to be one dimensional to play this game. You can do illegal things AND legal things. I am trying to make clear that the legal things you do are not "shadowruns" but rather "employment".

Nova

Actually, the part I had a problem with was: "Ok...I'd like to try and put a stop to this "Legal Runner" nonsense."

Nowhere was a 'legal runner' suggested, if you work as a Runner for a Corp, both you and the Corp realize you're doing illegal activities and the Corp, but the Corp can either give you an alibi to deny charges, or deny involvement if caught red-handed, but via this means you have 'legal' permits to a legal SIN (the Corp just lays claim that you were given permission to gain said permits for defense of the Corp and that they had no idea you would use these permits in off-hours)

The LoneStar example I hope is self evident, conducting illegal acts to catch criminals is common even today in undercover work (at least in the movies ).

The environmentalist know its illegal to do their runs, they just hit places that have more to gain by not reporting to the Security forces.

Anyhows, moot points each. MY character has a legal SIN with permits and aids Lonestar as much as possible. Although he has engaged is some less than legal activities, he's never given reason to have the permits recalled and actually tries to always do what's 'right', not neccessarily legal.

Sphynx

True enough, Sphynx, and conceded. I definitely blurred the lines there. Although I'd suggest that astrally projecting one's head through the jacket might be a bit less noticeable to Joe Average than going up to the person and tearing open their jacket to check

Of course, my own preference is a Detect (Focus) spell.

It really sounds as though this thread is devolving into semantics: what is a "shadowrunner"? The SR Companion has made very clear that the game theme and mechanics apply perfectly well within what you, Nova, term "employment". (DocWagon, black ops, reporting are all given as viable canon campaign possibilities.) Within those contexts, the same types of approaches can apply as for the strictest possible definition of "shadowrunner", right up to and including that shading of what constitutes legality.

Beyond that: I'd consider someone who is playing within this system, this world, to be at least partly in the shadows - precisely by virtue of their willingness to twist the law in at least some environments, and possibly by virtue of their deniability (another aspect I find fundamental - but maybe not essential? - to the game). If any given player operating within this system wishes to name their PC a shadowrunner, it's all one with me.

My character also has a legal SIN, and also helps LoneStar as much as possible. No arguments there.

But when I run, I do it on a false SIN to avoid traceability. I get paid on a false SIN. Some of my permits are on the false SIN but then I don't use those weapon on illegal runs.

As for the semantics discussion, one of the reasons I brought it up was because I don't believe a corporation would hire runners, then sponsor them for permits, knowing they were gonna do runs for the corp. While I understand your alibi, or deniability (ie. "we didn't know he was gonna run with our permits...what he does in his off time is his business") it would still draw some heat or suspicion against the corp, and if it happened more than once I am sure the corp would begin having trouble getting permits at all because it's obvious they can't control their people. It obviously depends on the job or the corp, but in the majority of cases I believe a Mr. Johnson is going to try and keep the greatest distance possible between himself (and his employer) and the shadows as possible, if only to avoid the public smearing that will happen if someone known to be in their employ was busted making a run against another company. If Ares caught someone making a run against them who had a permit issued by Fuchi, I suspect legal action against Fuchi would be swift, regardless if Fuchi said "We didn't know what he was doing on his off time".

In essence, I believe that getting a permit as a runner is a hard thing, and must usually be done on a SIN that is not used when doing illegal runs, regardless of the source of the permits.

So getting back on topic...it will, in general, probably be hard to get a permit for some spells (combat spells for example) unless you have a good alibi (as Sphynx pointed out - you are an undercover cop or a corp is willing to take a chance on you), but in general, as _most_ runners are criminals by definition it will be very hard indeed for them to get a valid permit, or if they do get one it'll be hard for them to hold on to it if they persist in illegal activities, and therefore if they are walking around with a buncha illegal spells there is a chance they'll get spotted and busted, especially if they are caught in mid run (which I guess went witout saying). Even with a fake SIN, you'll still have to justify why you need Fireball 12 to do your job...

On a side note, as I am no expert on magic, I have a question for you mage-types:

If I have a permit for my manhunter, and I shoot someone, the cops can analyze the bullet and determine that it was fired by MY gun (because I have a permit for the gun, and therefore the rifling of the weapon has been recorded and will be reflected in the bullet), so therefore I am now on the run from the law.

If Sphynx used a fireball 12 on some people, and he had a permit for the fireball 12, could the cops find out after the fact that the fireball that was cast was indeed cast by Sphynx? Ie. do spells have similar traceability as firearms?

Maybe I should ditch the cyberware and get spells instead

Nova

I think an Astral Signature exists for a duration limited to Force in hours (unless it is erased by the caster).

Right, so like I said, you're not a shadowrunner. This isn't meant as an insult or a comment on how you play the game. It is meant as a reflection of what the definition of a shadowrunner is. Everything you read speaks about illegality and anonymity, which to me, runs completely counter to working for Lone Star and having all the permits you need. You're a cop, which is pretty much the antithesis of a shadowrunner.

Does that mean you suck and your game sucks and any other insults you with to infer? No, it doesn't. A barber is not a soldier, even if you give him a gun, that's all it means.

So, other than the fact that you felt insulted by my original analysis, it was never meant as such and still holds: You play in the shadowrun universe, but you are not a shadowrunner. What's the big deal?

It does grant you luxuries my PCs don't have nor my characters and that's getting a job with Lone Star and registering everything I own. However, you then clear the way for having a mage with 4-5 spells locked onto himself 24/7, you grant your mages VAST power. When your mage walks around with armor, invis, levitate and reflex boosters on all the time, well, you start overshadowing the mundanes by leaps and bounds and at least to me, it starts sapping the fun out for everyone else.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

I really want to know where I can read that mundane objects show up on astral perception (note, not "astral senses" which are what projection uses), not because I don't believe you, but because I'd like to read it. The definition of astral perception states those things which are present in astral space and mundane items aren't on that list. It does however mean vastly different rules work for perception vs projection and frankly, I'd like the whole thing cleared up.

Also, a focus, once bound is considered astrally active. You may not be sustaining a spell with it atm, but you payed karma to have it bound to you, it is therefore an active focus, which would entail an astral presence. Kindly point me to information that may indicate otherwise as I would certainly welcome the change to get one without having to worry about the fact my grade isn't high enough to mask it.

Sunday.

PS: Nova, like Fortune said. If the mage doesn't clean up after himself, they'll get his astral signature, which is essentially his magic fingerprints, which would be on his permit, which is in a db somewhere, which Lone Star (or whoever) will find in no time flat.

Thanks Talia, actually, Zanzer nailed it on another thread where I was trying to gain the same info. My problem was with the divergent definitions of "astral perception" vs "astal senses", which were kinda unclear in there similarities and/or differences.

But as p161 shows, that was just poorly chosen words on the part of the writers who I suspect never consider some monkey would come along and ask why there was NO mention of mundane items under "astral perception" but they were widely covered under "astral senses". The entire mess has been cleared up, and I thank you for your input.

Sunday

PS: I have no problem with someone playing a corporate strike team or a cop or anything else they want, just don't tell me they're runners
However, when people start complaining about mages being too powerful and running around with an army of spells locked onto them and they end up being faster than the sams and twice as deadly, I reserve the right to say "That's your own damn fault" =)