Full Version: Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense...
Aiyah. But no one can actively mask all the time now, can they?
um, sunday, lone star is a corporation. nova's character helps them, apparently out of some delusion that they're "the cops" or "the good guys", but that doesn't mean he's not a runner. (he's just, y'know, a crazy runner.)
Guys,
Anything with a "P" in the legality code is what I call 'psuedo-legal' in shadowrun. That is because in my experience any competant shadowrunning team is going to run under false identifications and will often have several.....good ones (rating 8 or even more). For very little extra cost, you can get fake pemits attachted to those identities and (again in my experience) most runners have SINs because the disadvantages of being SINless far outweight the advantages.....and again for just a thousand nuyen or so, a mage can have all the permits he or she needs. The same goes for any character with a heavy pistol.
I note that heavy pistols are just as illegal as force 3+ spirits, foci, and spells....actually more so in many cases, and rifles, submachine guns, and even knives are actually MORE illegal.
In short, sustained spells are a real problem (at least in my experience) in shadowrun...and one of the contributing factors is that most spells are generally LEGAL regardless of force (or at least effectively so).
-Polaris
Anything with a "P" in the legality code is what I call 'psuedo-legal' in shadowrun. That is because in my experience any competant shadowrunning team is going to run under false identifications and will often have several.....good ones (rating 8 or even more). For very little extra cost, you can get fake pemits attachted to those identities and (again in my experience) most runners have SINs because the disadvantages of being SINless far outweight the advantages.....and again for just a thousand nuyen or so, a mage can have all the permits he or she needs. The same goes for any character with a heavy pistol.
I note that heavy pistols are just as illegal as force 3+ spirits, foci, and spells....actually more so in many cases, and rifles, submachine guns, and even knives are actually MORE illegal.
In short, sustained spells are a real problem (at least in my experience) in shadowrun...and one of the contributing factors is that most spells are generally LEGAL regardless of force (or at least effectively so).
-Polaris
The advantage/disadvantage of a SIN is directly proportional to how you choose to implement institutional presences in your games. If a runner with a SIN can be tracked by GridGuide, hes Telecom account, his Medical profile, his credit transactions, etc. its a whole different ballgame. If you dont make much use of such institutions (for lack of a better term) then having a SIN may indeed be more of an advantage.
Again what you have here is something that changes based on how you play the game. Permits or no, some games deal more harshly with them than others. Simply paying nuyen and having a permit on a legal SIN for your various gear might be a nice convenience for some, or a certain death certificate to others. Which category you get depends on your GM, the NPCs in your games, and of course the style you choose to play.
Im not sure how spells are becoming a problem. Within the context of the game world teams are portrayed as happy to have a good mage and many settle for a decent one. Magical security is expensive. Talent is limited. All of which mean that magic is, in portrayal at least, something that can swing an encounter from a loss to a win. So if magic is giving your team the edge then its showing up "correctly" game context wise. If theres some specific situation/combination that is getting out of hand, perhaps it would be better to seek a solution to it rather than try and determine if the system as a whole works.
Again what you have here is something that changes based on how you play the game. Permits or no, some games deal more harshly with them than others. Simply paying nuyen and having a permit on a legal SIN for your various gear might be a nice convenience for some, or a certain death certificate to others. Which category you get depends on your GM, the NPCs in your games, and of course the style you choose to play.
Im not sure how spells are becoming a problem. Within the context of the game world teams are portrayed as happy to have a good mage and many settle for a decent one. Magical security is expensive. Talent is limited. All of which mean that magic is, in portrayal at least, something that can swing an encounter from a loss to a win. So if magic is giving your team the edge then its showing up "correctly" game context wise. If theres some specific situation/combination that is getting out of hand, perhaps it would be better to seek a solution to it rather than try and determine if the system as a whole works.
First of all, my shaman HAS a sin, bought me one, a good one too. I just don't use it for anything that even remotely has to do with my alternate life as a shadowrunner, because I would quickly turn my expensive SIN into an expensive SIN wanted by the police.
I have always used SINs as exactly what they are. Everywhere you go and everything you do in "legal" society is tracked. Operating SINless is possible, but highly inconvenient, but aquiring permits and then using the licensed spells and foci during my criminal activities would jeopardize that identity and I payed too much for it.
So I guess the lesson to take away from all this is, you can walk around with 4-5 spells locked onto you if you have a permit and you are prepared to forsake "illegal" activity. Neither of which are options in both the games I run and the games I play in.
I'm jealous then, I don't get the luxury of walking around with all my spells up and sustained.
And Motor, you don't strike me as a very happy person. Nova uses his alternate SIN, the one with the permits, when he does legal jobs. He doesn't use those guns when we run, I don't have the luxury of having different spells to use when I run.
Sunday.
I have always used SINs as exactly what they are. Everywhere you go and everything you do in "legal" society is tracked. Operating SINless is possible, but highly inconvenient, but aquiring permits and then using the licensed spells and foci during my criminal activities would jeopardize that identity and I payed too much for it.
So I guess the lesson to take away from all this is, you can walk around with 4-5 spells locked onto you if you have a permit and you are prepared to forsake "illegal" activity. Neither of which are options in both the games I run and the games I play in.
I'm jealous then, I don't get the luxury of walking around with all my spells up and sustained.
And Motor, you don't strike me as a very happy person. Nova uses his alternate SIN, the one with the permits, when he does legal jobs. He doesn't use those guns when we run, I don't have the luxury of having different spells to use when I run.
Sunday.
Guys,
Your shamans and mages do buy astral chameleon, right? If so, then there is no excuse for leaving any sort of spell signature behind. If you have a handful of initiate grades under your belt, in addition to centering, masking, shielding, and quickening, you should also consider cleansing since that wipes the entire astral slate clean (and it doesn't take long).
Seriously, even if you tossed your most powerful mojo, I have found that if you have astral chameleon, you can wipe the signatures of each spell completely within a combat turn....often two in a combat turn. Considering that combat turns only last a few seconds, you can completely wipe any scene long before lonestar or Corp Security arrives.
As for signatures, why try to keep them hidden? The trick is for the person that sees it not to connect it with your criminal activity, and that is actually fairly easy. After all, what mage is going to stop to assense you and pick up your signature while you are busy blowing his friends away with stunballs? Really....be sensible. He might try to pick it up later....but he has to survive to see later, and a mage with sustained and quickened spells up the yin makes that highly unlikely....especially if said mage is an initiate and the corp wage-mage is not (the usual case by the way).
Also what Lonestar cop (even a DIP) is going to take the trouble to analyze your permit six ways from Sunday unless he has a specific reason to do so (like an arrest warrant or suspicious behavior). He won't. If he sees a spell that is normally illegal, he will ask for the permit...and he will see if the permit is valid against your assumed SIN. Since that is dead easy to set up, the net effect is that most spells are defacto legal in shadowrun terms. [After all, you don't care about legality in the middle of the run...and you clean up your mess afterwards if you expect to survive....but that applies just as much to sammies dumping guns and changing ammo as it does to Mages.]
-Polaris
Your shamans and mages do buy astral chameleon, right? If so, then there is no excuse for leaving any sort of spell signature behind. If you have a handful of initiate grades under your belt, in addition to centering, masking, shielding, and quickening, you should also consider cleansing since that wipes the entire astral slate clean (and it doesn't take long).
Seriously, even if you tossed your most powerful mojo, I have found that if you have astral chameleon, you can wipe the signatures of each spell completely within a combat turn....often two in a combat turn. Considering that combat turns only last a few seconds, you can completely wipe any scene long before lonestar or Corp Security arrives.
As for signatures, why try to keep them hidden? The trick is for the person that sees it not to connect it with your criminal activity, and that is actually fairly easy. After all, what mage is going to stop to assense you and pick up your signature while you are busy blowing his friends away with stunballs? Really....be sensible. He might try to pick it up later....but he has to survive to see later, and a mage with sustained and quickened spells up the yin makes that highly unlikely....especially if said mage is an initiate and the corp wage-mage is not (the usual case by the way).
Also what Lonestar cop (even a DIP) is going to take the trouble to analyze your permit six ways from Sunday unless he has a specific reason to do so (like an arrest warrant or suspicious behavior). He won't. If he sees a spell that is normally illegal, he will ask for the permit...and he will see if the permit is valid against your assumed SIN. Since that is dead easy to set up, the net effect is that most spells are defacto legal in shadowrun terms. [After all, you don't care about legality in the middle of the run...and you clean up your mess afterwards if you expect to survive....but that applies just as much to sammies dumping guns and changing ammo as it does to Mages.]
-Polaris
| QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer @ Sep 5 2003, 07:40 PM) |
I have no problem with someone playing a corporate strike team or a cop or anything else they want, just don't tell me they're runners  |
Fine, so don't play "runner"s
.If my character had such a desire to be a regular law-breaker who was your definition of a Runner, I'd admittedly play a very different strategy so as to keep a lower profile. No cyberware with a visibility lower than 6, no Foci and no sustained spells. -However- I'd also consider that boring, you either play in a game that ignores alot of the legalities, or play in a game where you try to do what's morally right despite being a ton more powerful than the average Joe.
[Edit]And believe me, the issues between being a "lawful good" ex-cop who believs in upholding the law, and doing what's morally right despite being an advocate for law abiding, has led my character through many interesting role-playing sessions as I try to justify illegal acts, or try to find a way to handle things without breaking the law.[/Edit]
The chance of running into a 'legal' issue with a sustained spell is minutely less than running into problems for possessing illegal cyberware (especially the military grade stuff). Reason being that it's minutely rarer to encounter an astrally perceiving cop type, than it is to encounter a cop with a good perception.
Sphynx
[Edit]
Sorry for double editting... just thinking too much....
FYI, LoneStar knows my character by name and often question me first in regards to ANY run in the Seattle area that showed high levels of Magic (when I'm actually in town anyhows). MY contacts list has a ton of cops who've spent hours questioning me and who I've (and my team) helped capture the actual culprits with. There are so many possible ways for GMs and Players to handle situatuons that you can make something good out of any bad situation by just playing smart and nice.
[/Edit]
Sphynx,
That's fine. In fact in the game I play in that has happed. So what? Assuming you have a SIN and assuming you live in the UCAS or CAS (and that is likely considering the default setting is Seattle), then let Lonestar/DIPs question me all they like. I am just a humble research mage/consultant with the paperwork to prove it.
Unless they can PROVE something (and they won't be able to), I can sport enough mojo to light up ten city blocks and there isn't anything the authorities can do about it. That is why sustained spells in SR are such a problem. If you haven't run into it, then IMHO you haven't run into a player that knows all the tricks with magic.
-Polaris
That's fine. In fact in the game I play in that has happed. So what? Assuming you have a SIN and assuming you live in the UCAS or CAS (and that is likely considering the default setting is Seattle), then let Lonestar/DIPs question me all they like. I am just a humble research mage/consultant with the paperwork to prove it.
Unless they can PROVE something (and they won't be able to), I can sport enough mojo to light up ten city blocks and there isn't anything the authorities can do about it. That is why sustained spells in SR are such a problem. If you haven't run into it, then IMHO you haven't run into a player that knows all the tricks with magic.
-Polaris
Light up ten city blocks w/o anyone knowing!? You're probably speaking figuratively. That's absurd.
If that was the case, makes me wonder why your game world still survive from being annihilated by mages like you! You're not the MOST POWERFUL MAGE in the world you know. Someone greater will always know, and there are greater powers out there that will find you if you pull off something that stupid.
If that was the case, makes me wonder why your game world still survive from being annihilated by mages like you! You're not the MOST POWERFUL MAGE in the world you know. Someone greater will always know, and there are greater powers out there that will find you if you pull off something that stupid.
Strange, the idea of a mage/shaman having a few sustained spells all the time is quite offensive to some people but not to others. 
My opinion is that the mage in question can sport all the spells he can sustain 24/7 but as long as he has the necessary paperwork, no cop is going bother him. It is kind of like some cowboy sporting a six-shooter in the Wild West, no deputy is going to be bothered by another cowboy with a pistol.
As long as the runner has all the necessary SIN/permits, no policeman in the world is going to give himself more work by giving you more trouble.
By the way, the mojo lighting up a city block thing? I though we had debated that till the end of time already.
My opinion is that the mage in question can sport all the spells he can sustain 24/7 but as long as he has the necessary paperwork, no cop is going bother him. It is kind of like some cowboy sporting a six-shooter in the Wild West, no deputy is going to be bothered by another cowboy with a pistol.
As long as the runner has all the necessary SIN/permits, no policeman in the world is going to give himself more work by giving you more trouble.
By the way, the mojo lighting up a city block thing? I though we had debated that till the end of time already.
Greyfoxx... he didn't say anything about people not knowing.
As for the rest of your comments... may I ask what you're talking about? annihilated by mages like him? pullog off what's that stupid?
Admittedly, there's no way to 'light up' a 10 city block area, that was purely figurative, of course.
Polaris: I agree that in some settings (like this whole corp-hitting scenario I keep hearing about) that much mojo can be 'such a problem', but that sounds like the problem of the GM for not increasing the intensity of the campaign, not the fault of the player.
Our team includes such 'marvels' as a ambidextrous pistol wielding SL-2w/RF and 19+5d6 init speed demon, a character who has a skill of 12 in everything via non-stop purchases of Softs, a shaman who totes around with 9 Force 5+ spirits, a guy who rolls 35 dice in melee before using Combat Pool, etc, etc, etc.
The Quickened spells of my character (viewable by clicking on him in my signature) keeps me 'balanced' with them. I'm the 'utility' of the team, not god awful powerful, just one of a team which consists of people who are at levels 100 to 250 in Karma, each.
Guess I'm just not getting where a character like mine is unbalancing. Maybe in a game where everything is House Ruled to prevent anyone from getting powerful, but you can make anyone with 150ish karma bad-freaking-ass without the need for sustaining spells on them.
Sphynx
As for the rest of your comments... may I ask what you're talking about? annihilated by mages like him? pullog off what's that stupid?
Admittedly, there's no way to 'light up' a 10 city block area, that was purely figurative, of course.
Polaris: I agree that in some settings (like this whole corp-hitting scenario I keep hearing about
) that much mojo can be 'such a problem', but that sounds like the problem of the GM for not increasing the intensity of the campaign, not the fault of the player. Our team includes such 'marvels' as a ambidextrous pistol wielding SL-2w/RF and 19+5d6 init speed demon, a character who has a skill of 12 in everything via non-stop purchases of Softs, a shaman who totes around with 9 Force 5+ spirits, a guy who rolls 35 dice in melee before using Combat Pool, etc, etc, etc.
The Quickened spells of my character (viewable by clicking on him in my signature) keeps me 'balanced' with them. I'm the 'utility' of the team, not god awful powerful, just one of a team which consists of people who are at levels 100 to 250 in Karma, each.
Guess I'm just not getting where a character like mine is unbalancing. Maybe in a game where everything is House Ruled to prevent anyone from getting powerful, but you can make anyone with 150ish karma bad-freaking-ass without the need for sustaining spells on them.
Sphynx
Ohh. I forgot the smileys. I was also talking figuratively, see. A mage with enough foci to light up 10 city blocks would probably be ultimately powerful and...
... anyway here are the smileys for that
... anyway here are the smileys for that
hmm, 10 city block, what would the focus adiction be for that level of power?
there are a lot of way so skin a cat, 99.9% of them are messy...
there are a lot of way so skin a cat, 99.9% of them are messy...
Guys, what spells are people sustaining that is oh so imbalancing? What are these tricks you speak of? I have yet to see any *examples* of what youre talking about, only things like "sustaining is huge" and "permits work" and other group-centric comments. Until I see some evidence that having your spells as legal or not even matters (in terms of a game balance view) the case is moot. So what if you could or coulnt do it, what effect is this having specifically?
And Sphynx, hope the ambidextrous guy isnt using his SL-2 while using two pistols.
And Sphynx, hope the ambidextrous guy isnt using his SL-2 while using two pistols.
Sphinx, you really have to stop calling it "my" definition of a runner. It's not like I invented it, I'm going on what is written in several places in the shadowrun rulebook. Once again, this doesn't mean anyone is less than anyone else or that you're not "playing the game right", just please stop acting like I invented the concept of shadowrunners as criminals, I'm just going with what's in the books.
Which pretty much takes us full circle. If you play in a campaign where you can get away with having everything licensed and registered then great for you!
This luxury is simply not a viable option in either the games I run or the games I play in. In our games, anonymity is the key, we aren't "bad guys", but we ARE criminals.
You seems to think because I'm a criminal I'm also "evil" which of course, for a shaman of monkey, is the farthest thing from the truth.
I get accused, rather constantly, of going out of way to help people when there isn't a penny to be made. I do runs for free, I give my money away and all manners of other behavior that certainly doesn't jive with the concept of "evil". I'm a criminal yes, but I'm with the good guys.
Sunday.
Which pretty much takes us full circle. If you play in a campaign where you can get away with having everything licensed and registered then great for you!
This luxury is simply not a viable option in either the games I run or the games I play in. In our games, anonymity is the key, we aren't "bad guys", but we ARE criminals.
You seems to think because I'm a criminal I'm also "evil" which of course, for a shaman of monkey, is the farthest thing from the truth.
I get accused, rather constantly, of going out of way to help people when there isn't a penny to be made. I do runs for free, I give my money away and all manners of other behavior that certainly doesn't jive with the concept of "evil". I'm a criminal yes, but I'm with the good guys.
Sunday.
Dwarf, allow me to demonstrate.
Oh, look at that, all my spells and foci are registered and I have permits for all of them! Lucky me!
Let me cast my WILLPOWER(4) spell, take my time, make sure I score max successes (+4 to the stat) and look at that, I now have a 10 Willpower. Let me just throw up my CHARISMA spell and eh, I have 10 Charisma too! Armor anyone? What's that you say armor glows? Oh that's ok, invisibility please! I'm gonna need some flight so lock that levivate down. Hmmm too slow, better lock a reaction and a reflex booster spell too.
End result. Mage walking around with 5-6 sustaining foci keeping his spells up.
Willpower 10
Charisma 10
Armor 5
Levitate 4
Improved invisibility 4
Reactions +4 and +3d to initiative.
Do YOU want to meet this guy in a fight? He's a mage who's faster than the sams, better armor than the sams, far more mobile, and has 10 base dice to any drain test he makes.
Now those force numbers were pulled out of my monkey butt, but you should get the idea of why allowing someone to walk around with an armada of spells sustained can lead to headaches.
Sunday
Oh, look at that, all my spells and foci are registered and I have permits for all of them! Lucky me!
Let me cast my WILLPOWER(4) spell, take my time, make sure I score max successes (+4 to the stat) and look at that, I now have a 10 Willpower. Let me just throw up my CHARISMA spell and eh, I have 10 Charisma too! Armor anyone? What's that you say armor glows? Oh that's ok, invisibility please! I'm gonna need some flight so lock that levivate down. Hmmm too slow, better lock a reaction and a reflex booster spell too.
End result. Mage walking around with 5-6 sustaining foci keeping his spells up.
Willpower 10
Charisma 10
Armor 5
Levitate 4
Improved invisibility 4
Reactions +4 and +3d to initiative.
Do YOU want to meet this guy in a fight? He's a mage who's faster than the sams, better armor than the sams, far more mobile, and has 10 base dice to any drain test he makes.
Now those force numbers were pulled out of my monkey butt, but you should get the idea of why allowing someone to walk around with an armada of spells sustained can lead to headaches.
Sunday
This has most likely been said before, but...
...what if a spirit suddenly wants to play with you for a while.
...what if a spirit suddenly wants to play with you for a while.
Umm, if they are using foci to sustain those spells and unless they have a magic rating of something absurd (19, as that is 38 force worth of spells) they are going to be dealing with focus addiction in a bad way. No, there is no way I would want to face off against a mage like that, but either that mage is already so powerful that I would never dream of crossing them, or they are going to burn out due to focus addiction. Now, if all of those were quickened (I'm not sure how feasible that is, as I've never played a character who could quicken, nor has one ever played in any of my games), it might be a slightly different story. Although, I've always considered having that many spells up making a stealth entrance that much more difficult and not worth it (glaring beacons in astral space lack a certain amount of subtlety), and if you get noticed with that many powerful spells they wont send a security patrol after you, they'll mobilize a couple of swat teams. Just not worth it.
You're right on the focus addiction, so yes, quickening would work just the same. However it has been proven that the "astral beacon" theory is innacurate. Spells are visible yes, so the mage would definitely be visible along with all his spells from astral space, but since 3 successes are required in an ascensing roll just to figure out if the force of the spell is higher than your own magic attribute, we can deduce that the force of the spell does not affect "brightness" of the aura.
Sunday.
Sunday.
On the force, that's true, but your still sustaining 6 spells, and each spell can easily be identified as a separate aura, so there is no difficulty determining that. At that point, having 6 quickened spells I would say instantly puts you in the extreme threat category as it demonstrates you are a powerful mage even without taking the time to learn the force of every one of those spells.
Beyond that, it may be legal to have those spells if you have a permit, but not all establishments will accept that. Even with a conceal and carry permit, you can't walk into a major government building with a gun, and the same would hold true in my opinion of many spells (increase reflexes and armor come to mind). The same holds true for airplanes and similar environments. Having all of those spells up, even legally would still seriously impede you ability to get along in the world.
Beyond that, it may be legal to have those spells if you have a permit, but not all establishments will accept that. Even with a conceal and carry permit, you can't walk into a major government building with a gun, and the same would hold true in my opinion of many spells (increase reflexes and armor come to mind). The same holds true for airplanes and similar environments. Having all of those spells up, even legally would still seriously impede you ability to get along in the world.
You're preaching to the choir, I take permits very seriously in my games. Likewise on the quickened spells, you wouldn't "glow" more brightly but all the auras would be visible and to anyone in the know, that does indeed make them sit up and pay attention.
Sunday.
Sunday.
Sunday, please drop your childish sarcasm at the door. That does nothing for either side, it just irritates people.
As has been said, if you have those 4 spells active with foci youll suffer addiction. If you use quickening you trade off passing through barriers, as well as spending more karma (technique+spell cost) (but less cash). If you opt to simply sustain them even with the focused concentration edge its a +4 tn penalty. You can choose to have an elemental sustain them, but half of those are health spells which wouldnt work. All that aside, even buffing yourself to those stats isnt too unheard of as its possible to start off with willpower/charisma of 9 or 10 base should you choose to do so.
Point being that should you decide to persue sustaining that many spells, each of the combinations that works does have a significant trade off. Not the least of which is the potential for astral encounters of some kind or another, again depending on how you handle such things in your game. Bottom line, the only example thus far is invalid for proving sustained spells to be problematic to a level that unbalances the game. Is there a better example?
As has been said, if you have those 4 spells active with foci youll suffer addiction. If you use quickening you trade off passing through barriers, as well as spending more karma (technique+spell cost) (but less cash). If you opt to simply sustain them even with the focused concentration edge its a +4 tn penalty. You can choose to have an elemental sustain them, but half of those are health spells which wouldnt work. All that aside, even buffing yourself to those stats isnt too unheard of as its possible to start off with willpower/charisma of 9 or 10 base should you choose to do so.
Point being that should you decide to persue sustaining that many spells, each of the combinations that works does have a significant trade off. Not the least of which is the potential for astral encounters of some kind or another, again depending on how you handle such things in your game. Bottom line, the only example thus far is invalid for proving sustained spells to be problematic to a level that unbalances the game. Is there a better example?
| QUOTE |
| Is there a better example? |
Yes. Invis 6. Armor 5. Levitate 1. Right out of the box you have someone, who assuming your has decent combat pool/body (not an unreasonable assumption), who's frankly harder to kill than most sam's, and certainly all adepts. Incredible defensive power in combat, and broke as hell in most games.
Curugul
Uh, dwarf? What the hell are you talking about? Which sarcasm is that?
And I don't HAVE problematic mages in my games, for several reasons including the ones you yourself bring up. This ENTIRE THREAD was started because I read a fair amount about people having problems with mages being overpowered and then they usually describe to me a mage who wouldn't last 20 minutes in public in any game I've ever run or ran in.
Sunday.
And I don't HAVE problematic mages in my games, for several reasons including the ones you yourself bring up. This ENTIRE THREAD was started because I read a fair amount about people having problems with mages being overpowered and then they usually describe to me a mage who wouldn't last 20 minutes in public in any game I've ever run or ran in.
Sunday.
hmm, curugul, last time i checked the armor spell acts worn armor in that i just lowers a attacks power to a minimum of 2, as in its not hardend armor. as for invisibility, grab radar or ultrasound 
hell, lets just use a SAM and be done with it as this guy is flying...
im usre that if magic is as unbalanced as its claimed to be then it would have been picked up in a playtest sometime or other. a troll with ultrasound, smartlink and a panther should make short work of that mage
hell, lets just use a SAM and be done with it as this guy is flying...im usre that if magic is as unbalanced as its claimed to be then it would have been picked up in a playtest sometime or other. a troll with ultrasound, smartlink and a panther should make short work of that mage
Anyway curugul, its been the second time you've mentioned that combo, and believe me, its faaaaaaar from unstoppable. Adepts(me being an adept freak must defend all adepts), having the power to astrally perceive, have high willpower, and rolls 12dice excluding CP on any (single) combat skill, will make quick work out of that even with a holdout pistol.
Legality isn't something that will really come up that much for a shadowrunner. If a mage is just walking down the street, he is unlikely to be assensed and then pulled over to explain his quickened spells. If a mage is caught in illegal activity by a corporation, then the fake ID won't matter - when have the megacorps ever had any concern for human rights, especially on their own turf?
Quickening and sustaining both have disadvantages, and neither is unbalancing to the game unless the GM doesn't know enough to exploit those disadvantages.
Quickening and sustaining both have disadvantages, and neither is unbalancing to the game unless the GM doesn't know enough to exploit those disadvantages.
Again Glyph depends on the game your in but you're right, there is no guarantee that the mage will get hassled or even noticed. He IS attracting attention to himself astrally however and that will eventually bite him in the butt, least where I'm from.
Sunday.
Sunday.
Guys,
No not really....as I indicated before, the mage may have enough spells to be visible for ten city blocks and he can still be reasonably safe even as a shadowrunner.
The problem stems from two aspects of the world that have a positive feedback loop that makes mages potentially very abusive especially with quickened and/or sustained spells.
1. Only magic can defeat magic. That is a common theme in shadowrun, and it remains true in the game. This should not really be in dispute. That means that if you are going to hassle the mage that is lighting up with all sorts of sustained spells, then you have to make that hassle magical in nature.
2. Magic is rare. Only 1% of the population has any magical attribute at all, and only about one in ten of those is a full, sane, and trainable mage. Of these only a fraction (call it one in ten in Fermi numbers) is actually an initiate. While initiation is very common in mages that run in the shadows, in most cases initiation is RARE!
[I am not pulling these numbers out of my posterior. This is discussed in MITS and is canon AFAIK.]
Thus if you have a PC mage that is a grade 2 or 3 initiate, out of say 300 million people in UCAS, only perhaps 3000 in all of UCAS can even think about challenging him....and with sustained spells, while he might be visible to spirits, most sane spirits would give him a wide berth becuse an initiate mage is one of the few things that can ruin an elemental's day.
Thus, simply by having the ability (and karma) to have all sorts of spells sustained, quickened, or both, you also by definition are so powerful magically that no one will give you any drek...especially if your paperwork seems to be in order.
That is the real problem here. Rarity is not a good game balance mechanic because rarity never applies to PCs, but when done correctly gives the "rare" PC more power than he otherwise would seem to have.
There is btw, a third related problem with magic. Sure magic is a karma sink, but why does everyone call that a bad thing? Replace the term "karma sink" with "unlimited growth potential" and you see the crux of the problem. Mages start out fairly potent and have unlimited growth potential at a fairly rapid rate. Mundanes don't. Statistics have a hard attribute ceiling, and after a while skills start to as well. In addition new skills are more expensive than spells and do less in general.
Thus in my very strong opinion, if you think that Mages and Street Sams are balanced over a reasonable campaign, then you didn't have a mage (or shaman) who knew what they were doing.
-Polaris
No not really....as I indicated before, the mage may have enough spells to be visible for ten city blocks and he can still be reasonably safe even as a shadowrunner.
The problem stems from two aspects of the world that have a positive feedback loop that makes mages potentially very abusive especially with quickened and/or sustained spells.
1. Only magic can defeat magic. That is a common theme in shadowrun, and it remains true in the game. This should not really be in dispute. That means that if you are going to hassle the mage that is lighting up with all sorts of sustained spells, then you have to make that hassle magical in nature.
2. Magic is rare. Only 1% of the population has any magical attribute at all, and only about one in ten of those is a full, sane, and trainable mage. Of these only a fraction (call it one in ten in Fermi numbers) is actually an initiate. While initiation is very common in mages that run in the shadows, in most cases initiation is RARE!
[I am not pulling these numbers out of my posterior. This is discussed in MITS and is canon AFAIK.]
Thus if you have a PC mage that is a grade 2 or 3 initiate, out of say 300 million people in UCAS, only perhaps 3000 in all of UCAS can even think about challenging him....and with sustained spells, while he might be visible to spirits, most sane spirits would give him a wide berth becuse an initiate mage is one of the few things that can ruin an elemental's day.
Thus, simply by having the ability (and karma) to have all sorts of spells sustained, quickened, or both, you also by definition are so powerful magically that no one will give you any drek...especially if your paperwork seems to be in order.
That is the real problem here. Rarity is not a good game balance mechanic because rarity never applies to PCs, but when done correctly gives the "rare" PC more power than he otherwise would seem to have.
There is btw, a third related problem with magic. Sure magic is a karma sink, but why does everyone call that a bad thing? Replace the term "karma sink" with "unlimited growth potential" and you see the crux of the problem. Mages start out fairly potent and have unlimited growth potential at a fairly rapid rate. Mundanes don't. Statistics have a hard attribute ceiling, and after a while skills start to as well. In addition new skills are more expensive than spells and do less in general.
Thus in my very strong opinion, if you think that Mages and Street Sams are balanced over a reasonable campaign, then you didn't have a mage (or shaman) who knew what they were doing.
-Polaris
Actually, MITS says that only 1% of the population is magically active, and *most* of them are full mages.
The sustained invisibility spell isn't a big issue. Remember, you need to recast it each and every time you want to turn it on or take it off. Going around all day invisible might sound like fun, but it would get tiresome quickly, as you would have a hell of a time doing anything.
IMG, while Lone Star may not have a lot of full-mage cops, having a few spirits on tap is par for the course. And since the armor spell glow is clearly visible to mundanes, Lone Star will stop and harass anyone they see with that spell active. You may not get in trouble for having those spells active, but then again, the cop might be looking for an excuse to write a few tickets. You could end up being accused of jaywalking, or littering-- if they stall you long enough, they may even charge you with loitering. It all depends on how the cop feels that day, just like in real life.
The sustained invisibility spell isn't a big issue. Remember, you need to recast it each and every time you want to turn it on or take it off. Going around all day invisible might sound like fun, but it would get tiresome quickly, as you would have a hell of a time doing anything.
IMG, while Lone Star may not have a lot of full-mage cops, having a few spirits on tap is par for the course. And since the armor spell glow is clearly visible to mundanes, Lone Star will stop and harass anyone they see with that spell active. You may not get in trouble for having those spells active, but then again, the cop might be looking for an excuse to write a few tickets. You could end up being accused of jaywalking, or littering-- if they stall you long enough, they may even charge you with loitering. It all depends on how the cop feels that day, just like in real life.
and yet again, we're back to depends what game you play in.
Shadowrunners, and their mages, tend to run into other people that are part of that small percentage.
Magic scares people. There are more mundanes than mages. When people get scared they do strange and nasty things. Magic is therefore closely monitored in my world.
Mages are known, for the most part, because they went to school or because they were noticed and trained by one party or another. They are the elite. Full magicians are treated like royalty by corps and governments because there aren't that many of them and the impact they can have is incredible. There's also the small matter that as has been said, only magic can counter magic.
The end result is big corps tend to give their mages whatever they want and as a result, expect complete efficiency. When a mage is expected to be flawless and he basically has a whole lot of resources behind him, he goes for broke.
The police are no different, relying heavily on spirits, elementals and watchers in their Mage Cop Division. These spirits report any suspicious sightings to it's master on duty who is astrally projecting. He can race to the scene of the sighting at blinding speeds and perform further investigation. Astral security is taken very seriously because it should be and mundane groups would throw EXTRA resources at the problem simply out of fear for what they don't understand.
So you see, it depends on the individual campaign. I like my cyberpunk worlds dark and big brothery, but that's just me.
Sunday.
Shadowrunners, and their mages, tend to run into other people that are part of that small percentage.
Magic scares people. There are more mundanes than mages. When people get scared they do strange and nasty things. Magic is therefore closely monitored in my world.
Mages are known, for the most part, because they went to school or because they were noticed and trained by one party or another. They are the elite. Full magicians are treated like royalty by corps and governments because there aren't that many of them and the impact they can have is incredible. There's also the small matter that as has been said, only magic can counter magic.
The end result is big corps tend to give their mages whatever they want and as a result, expect complete efficiency. When a mage is expected to be flawless and he basically has a whole lot of resources behind him, he goes for broke.
The police are no different, relying heavily on spirits, elementals and watchers in their Mage Cop Division. These spirits report any suspicious sightings to it's master on duty who is astrally projecting. He can race to the scene of the sighting at blinding speeds and perform further investigation. Astral security is taken very seriously because it should be and mundane groups would throw EXTRA resources at the problem simply out of fear for what they don't understand.
So you see, it depends on the individual campaign. I like my cyberpunk worlds dark and big brothery, but that's just me.
Sunday.
| QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer) |
| Willpower 10 Charisma 10 Armor 5 Levitate 4 Improved invisibility 4 Reactions +4 and +3d to initiative. |
First off, Sunday, sorry if my wording offended you, I didn't mean your definition of a Runner, I meant your definition of playing a Shadowrun game.
That having been said, allow me to ask something.... Assuming you reworked this to use Quickening instead of Foci, it would look something like 8 karma to Quicken Willpower, 8 Karma to Quicken Charisma, 8 Karma to Quicken Reaction, 5 Karma for an Armour Sustaining Focus, 4 Karma for a Levitate Focus, 4 Karma for an Invisibility Focus and a Magic Rating of 7, which makes sense, since you have to initiate to learn Quickening anyhows.
So, assuming you went as cheaply as possible on initiation by paying 3 Karma for a group, and 9 karma to be an initiate Grade 1. Total karma spent = 50 Karma.
Of that 50 Karma, 24 will be wasted because a TN of 8 is pretty easy to hit for the spirits sent to attack your Quickens, and soon your total successes will equal 0. Until it hits 0, the first attack will most likely drop your successes by 1 which will likely drop your bonus to +3.
Now, for a non-sustaining type character, like say a Phys Adept with a skill of 6 in Edged Weapons and a Strength of 12 (4 points via Adept powers + Dwarf w/
H's going to see how high he can raise his Katana Skill fro, 6 to 12. 3+4+4+5+5+6=27. Leaving enough to bond a mid Force Weapon Focus to himself.The Shaman learns to Summon Greater Form spirits to cross domains with him, allowing him a virtual army of goons who are unbeatable in melee due to the Friends in Combat rules, in addition, since that only cost 12 of those karma, the other 38 points were spent to either learn 9 force 3 spells, or conjure his Ally Spirit.
The skillswire guy, in addition to saving up his nuyen, converts Karma to Nuyen and purchases 6 skills at Rating 6 which gives him 12 dice due to his CED.
You're not showing the inbalance because the expenditures you have would make ANY character alot more powerful if they spent their Karma just as wisely. And considering the Mage would lose 24 (half) of his karma in the process because those spells WOULD get dispelled, all he's got to show for it is a list of spells he can sustain AFTER he passes through any possible Wards in his way, which, you could do at Char Generation anyhows and don't make the character any more powerful than anyone else in the group. All he is, is a little safer and unless he has a decent Body/Combat Pool, that armour isn't helping (might get the TN to 2, but look how many successes a typical is going to get if he just lets loose with burstfire in the same area) so his Levitate and Improved Invis are his only real help (+3D6 doesn't even help much, maybe one additional action) and what's overpowering about that?
Now I admit it CAN get crazy, such as my character which has Force 6's Quickened for 12 Karma, and I do encounter a TON of RP issues, like public buildings. I only eat Fast Food Soy Burgers, because I can't get into most decent restaurants even (I think my GM exaggerates by assuming any decent restaurant has that kinda of magical security, but I abide by his rulings). I never dream of entering gov't places or taking a plane anywhere. Only Corp doors I walk through are LoneStars, and you'll see why I can do that if you look at my Char sheet under Contacts, I'm Ex-Star. And right now I'm saving up to get 24 Combat Pool by increasing my Willpower via Quickening, and Quickening a Force 6 Deflect and Combat Sense on myself soon. But even with that, I'm the WORST in combat with my group, I've taken Deadly Wounds, been hospitalized, and come near death at least once a month. Yay... I can levitate!!!!
Seriously, the ONLY reason I even learned Quickening was because I started out imagining a Telekinetic type 'psychic' character, and wanted Magic Fingers where I wouldn't have to cast it all the time. A Force 6 Quickened was the Answer, unfortunately, I came so close to dying so often that more necessary spells got Quickened first, and once I felt I could survive, then I did Magic Fingers. Characters become powerful through necessity, keeping up with the other PCs, etc. When you play your first 6 games being the slowest character, with EVERYONE going about 3 times to your one, You Quicken the Reflexes. You have to, just to handle the NPCs which are going on Boosted 3's just to keep up to the Players, which you're already behind.
Anyhows, once again a non-stop Rambling on my part. All I'm saying though is that this agression towards people who sustain spells seems unfounded. What possible expenditures have you seen that make a PC so much more powerful than the other PCs who share the same amount of Karma/Nuyen? It's already balanced without the need to attack a specific group, IMHO.
Sphynx
Cain,
Once more you simply are not right (I have had to correct you before on other issues too).
This is what MITS says on page 28:
Once more you simply are not right (I have had to correct you before on other issues too).
This is what MITS says on page 28:
| QUOTE |
First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the population. Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth world can use magic. A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, [or] never get the proper training, or a crazy trying to deal with the gift. Rarity makes the Awakened valuable, but it also makes them feared. They are different with a capital D. A corporation will put up with drek from a wage-mage that would get a mundane suit fired--or maybe even killed. Because Awakened are hard to come by, corps (and other groups, including runners) take what they can get. |
In the future, before spouting off what MITS says, you might want to read the book. The above passage certainly does imply that only a tiny fraction (I was using 1:10 as a rough approximation) of those that are awakened actually are full magicians or shamans. Thus my numbers might be off, but only by a factor of 2 or 3 which still handily makes my point.
As for the fact that mages in the shadows tend to encounter more mages, that is certainly true....but on a run, who the hell cares about legality anyway? [Hint: you don't.] Because magic is invisible to the vast majority of the population, a mage could have sustained and quickened spells up the yin and still for the most part be treated normally....especially if he has the paperwork to back up his spells in the few cases it becomes an issue. During those cases where he can't, legality is almost never an issue anyway.
Thus sustained spells (and magic in general) *is* abusive for all the reasons I have mentioned. Those that can't see it have:
1. Played magic as uncannonically common just to keep mages in line (which actually exacerabates the problem for mundanes).
2. Have had mages played less than optimally.
3. Have (perhaps unknowingly) nerfed magic with houserules or
4. Just can't accept that SR might be flawed in this regard.
-Polaris
Sunday Gamer,
Nah...you are just disciminating against magical players. Why? Let's take your assumptions to their logical conclusions:
1. If mages are treated as royalty and are so valuable, then there should be fewer mages per capita running in the shadows not more. That actually increases the impact they have on the team.
2. If mages are so valuable and magic is so feared, then demand for astral security would be sky high with a very limited resource set that can provide it. *THAT* would mean that even a simple astral ward would be so expensive that no one but a national or A+ corp would be able to afford said security. *THAT* in turn means that mages will breeze past most runs, especially early in their careers.
3. If you are playing in UCAS and CAS, there is the small matter of civil rights. That might not matter much to a corp, and it certainly wouldn't matter on a run, but it would apply everyday (and this is canon not my own invention). Thus if a mage has a SIN, then if said mage has the paperwork for his mojo (not hard), then there is squat that Lonestar or anyone else can do about it. If your astral security gets too proactive, then LS, Knight Errant, or the other security company gets hit with a multi-million nuyen lawsuit....and no security corp will risk that.
In short, if you take magic being feared and rare to it's logical conclusion, you find that it makes PC mages stronger relative to the world and the group rather than weaker which was my point to begin with.
-Polaris
Nah...you are just disciminating against magical players. Why? Let's take your assumptions to their logical conclusions:
1. If mages are treated as royalty and are so valuable, then there should be fewer mages per capita running in the shadows not more. That actually increases the impact they have on the team.
2. If mages are so valuable and magic is so feared, then demand for astral security would be sky high with a very limited resource set that can provide it. *THAT* would mean that even a simple astral ward would be so expensive that no one but a national or A+ corp would be able to afford said security. *THAT* in turn means that mages will breeze past most runs, especially early in their careers.
3. If you are playing in UCAS and CAS, there is the small matter of civil rights. That might not matter much to a corp, and it certainly wouldn't matter on a run, but it would apply everyday (and this is canon not my own invention). Thus if a mage has a SIN, then if said mage has the paperwork for his mojo (not hard), then there is squat that Lonestar or anyone else can do about it. If your astral security gets too proactive, then LS, Knight Errant, or the other security company gets hit with a multi-million nuyen lawsuit....and no security corp will risk that.
In short, if you take magic being feared and rare to it's logical conclusion, you find that it makes PC mages stronger relative to the world and the group rather than weaker which was my point to begin with.
-Polaris
Polaris.... Dude....
First, don't flame someone here, that's just bad form. Secondly, don't flame Cain, he's just about one of the nicest people here who at least tries to help out.
There's nothing wrong with being wrong, I'm wrong often and that's how I discover I've been using a House Rule usually.
Now, how about explaining how it's abusive? Nobody has yet pointed that out. Sure, nobody is argueing that if you go sustaining spells on yourself, you're more powerful, that's kinda the idea of sustaining spells on yourself. But nobody's explained how it's more powerful than a mundane (or other mage even) who spends karma in a different, yet intelligent manner.
I obviously agree that legalities are hardly an issue, but what I don't agree on is that it's abusive.
Your reason (you only had one since the 2nd one assume the first one is true): Only Magic can defeat Magic. However, anyone can take out a 'lit up' mage easily with a gun, especially if he's dependant on his magic instead of using more mundane methods of defense. Sure, Armour helps, but you still need to roll more successes than the person who shot you. Melee can wipe most mages clear off the street, a combat mage who can hold his own in melee is rare. Easiest way to dispel a sustained spell, kill the guy sustaining it, that can even be easier than using a mage or spirit to attack the spell.
Sphynx
First, don't flame someone here, that's just bad form. Secondly, don't flame Cain, he's just about one of the nicest people here who at least tries to help out.
There's nothing wrong with being wrong, I'm wrong often and that's how I discover I've been using a House Rule usually.
Now, how about explaining how it's abusive? Nobody has yet pointed that out. Sure, nobody is argueing that if you go sustaining spells on yourself, you're more powerful, that's kinda the idea of sustaining spells on yourself. But nobody's explained how it's more powerful than a mundane (or other mage even) who spends karma in a different, yet intelligent manner.
I obviously agree that legalities are hardly an issue, but what I don't agree on is that it's abusive.
Your reason (you only had one since the 2nd one assume the first one is true): Only Magic can defeat Magic. However, anyone can take out a 'lit up' mage easily with a gun, especially if he's dependant on his magic instead of using more mundane methods of defense. Sure, Armour helps, but you still need to roll more successes than the person who shot you. Melee can wipe most mages clear off the street, a combat mage who can hold his own in melee is rare. Easiest way to dispel a sustained spell, kill the guy sustaining it, that can even be easier than using a mage or spirit to attack the spell.
Sphynx
Sphynx,
Cain and I have history in case you didn't know, and it isn't a flame when it is topical, informative, and true. I was in all cases. 'nuff said.
As for the single man with the gun, that is wrong. Even a mage with a body of three is not likely to be taken out with a gun.
If the mage wears standard stacked light armor (Body suit+lined coat+armored clothing), he can have 6/4 armor before his armor spell. With it, you are looking at armor ratings of 13/11 or even more. In addition, even with a body of three, the same mage is likely to have a body focus or quicked body spell that raises his body to 9, 10, or even higher....and my mages will boost body before even charisma because of exactly the effect you are talking about.
That means that even a sniper rifle is highly unlikely to take out a mage even if the mage is not expecting trouble. If that mage is surrounded by watchers (no reason he should not be), then getting the drop on said mage becomes extremely difficult.
-Polaris
Cain and I have history in case you didn't know, and it isn't a flame when it is topical, informative, and true. I was in all cases. 'nuff said.
As for the single man with the gun, that is wrong. Even a mage with a body of three is not likely to be taken out with a gun.
If the mage wears standard stacked light armor (Body suit+lined coat+armored clothing), he can have 6/4 armor before his armor spell. With it, you are looking at armor ratings of 13/11 or even more. In addition, even with a body of three, the same mage is likely to have a body focus or quicked body spell that raises his body to 9, 10, or even higher....and my mages will boost body before even charisma because of exactly the effect you are talking about.
That means that even a sniper rifle is highly unlikely to take out a mage even if the mage is not expecting trouble. If that mage is surrounded by watchers (no reason he should not be), then getting the drop on said mage becomes extremely difficult.
-Polaris
Polaris, check out the new FAQ ruling on called shots. Layer on all the armor you like, a handgun shot from a punk ganger with smartlink-2 will remove a mage from the mortal realm.
I think that called shots wouldn't ignore the armour rating of a spell, giving most mages at least 5 points of Armour vs the gun (most take it at 5 due to drain and the need to re-cast). But it would ignore worn armours (though I've never seen a mage wearing that much armour, and is suffering enough from his Quickness modifer)
More importantly though, Polaris, you're taking a best-possible-option mage against a simple-minimalized-scenario. If I roll 10 dice TN 2 (that's the average skill of NPCs with firearms in my game) and get 8 successes, and increase my 9M Pistol to 13D because you choose to 'soak' instead of dodge due to the TN 4 to dodge, then no, the 3 body won't stand a chance. If you have 12 armour total (meaning there was no called-shot), you still need a good 8 successes, TN 2. So, whereas your Mage may indeed endure the blast of a pistol, it's most likely just 'barely', a sniper (or anyone with a called shot) wouldn't even be a question, he'd win since the damage would be 8D, even with the Armour spell.
Sphynx
More importantly though, Polaris, you're taking a best-possible-option mage against a simple-minimalized-scenario. If I roll 10 dice TN 2 (that's the average skill of NPCs with firearms in my game) and get 8 successes, and increase my 9M Pistol to 13D because you choose to 'soak' instead of dodge due to the TN 4 to dodge, then no, the 3 body won't stand a chance. If you have 12 armour total (meaning there was no called-shot), you still need a good 8 successes, TN 2. So, whereas your Mage may indeed endure the blast of a pistol, it's most likely just 'barely', a sniper (or anyone with a called shot) wouldn't even be a question, he'd win since the damage would be 8D, even with the Armour spell.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| I think that called shots wouldn't ignore the armour rating of a spell, giving most mages at least 5 points of Armour vs the gun (most take it at 5 due to drain and the need to re-cast). |
Unfortunately, by a strict reading of the ruling, the armor spell doesn't help you at all. Which is why I'm currently on a crusade to get it reworded to be more sensical
Guys,
First of all, a mage can wear effectively 6/4 armor pretty much all the time with no quickness penalty. Rember the body suite is 4/1 and it doesn't count. That means a mage can wear 6/4 in layered mundane armor easy with no penalty with a quickness of at least 4 (which is no problem usually).
As for the new called shot rule, I just read it. It is completely assinine. What WAS FanPro thinking?! Were they thinking?! This hoses *all* PCs and it makes the sniper the uber character. Why bother to do a run at all? Just follow an executive for a while and then take him out with one sniper round. No protection will help him. GEEZ LOUIS! This hoses mundanes at least as much as mages.
In my experience, no GM uses this. They instead say that called shots give +4 TN (+2 with Improved Smartlink) and adds one to the damage code. Believe me; that is plenty good.
I also point out that you can not point to a broken rule to help defend another broken rule....and both are broken.
-Polaris
First of all, a mage can wear effectively 6/4 armor pretty much all the time with no quickness penalty. Rember the body suite is 4/1 and it doesn't count. That means a mage can wear 6/4 in layered mundane armor easy with no penalty with a quickness of at least 4 (which is no problem usually).
As for the new called shot rule, I just read it. It is completely assinine. What WAS FanPro thinking?! Were they thinking?! This hoses *all* PCs and it makes the sniper the uber character. Why bother to do a run at all? Just follow an executive for a while and then take him out with one sniper round. No protection will help him. GEEZ LOUIS! This hoses mundanes at least as much as mages.
In my experience, no GM uses this. They instead say that called shots give +4 TN (+2 with Improved Smartlink) and adds one to the damage code. Believe me; that is plenty good.
I also point out that you can not point to a broken rule to help defend another broken rule....and both are broken.
-Polaris
why use called shots on anything but a light pistol? i mean, you will probably do (Power)D damage anyway, right? (2-3 TN, 6-12 rolls, you do the math).... so, why use the called shots? have i missed something? do you do Light Naval damage if you do called shots with a panther or what?..... what's the point?
| QUOTE (Polaris) |
| If the mage wears standard stacked light armor (Body suit+lined coat+armored clothing), he can have 6/4 armor before his armor spell. |
hmm, i would not call that stack normal, not by a longshot! your looking at things from the shadow POW and forget that most people may at best have armored clothing, maybe a vest with plates if they feel threatend.
i would like to see the make go to a meeting with the jonson waeing all that, any bar or club outside of the combatzone would instantly refuse him entry on the basiss that he looks like a troublemaker...
now if he was going on a run then maybe, but then he is faceing off against smgs and/or assault rifles. allso remeber that none of that armor is hardend, therefor you will see a test against maybe 2D (maybe more if there is a rule that allows every 2 successes past D to stage the power, i swear i read one ones)...
a good sniper is allways the uber char, thats why they show up in every conflict the world over. when you can sit 2-3 km away and blow someones head of without anyone hearing the rifle your 100% safe! in every conflict from WW1 and on the sniper have been the most feared opponent! why do you think every corp CO or goverment leader is surrounded by bodyguards whenever they move in the open, its to block as many sniper angles as they can and if the first shot dont hit home then they either trow theyreclient to the ground and cover him with theyre own body or get him into something and cover the openings!
personly i think your loseing control here, take a stress pill or something...
You're probably right, I probably do discriminate against mages, but since my own character is a mage I don't feel toooo bad.
It may very well be leftover kneejerk reaction to the abusive power levels mages could reach without breaking a sweat in SR2.
The other is sort of a house rule I guess, we just don't like that for a few karma, the mage now has wired reflexes, which if you've ever made a sam, you know those bad boys take a big piece of your essence. We just didn't think it was "right".
However, I stand by my assessment of what scared people do in the case of mundanes vs magic. Yes I believe that most mages are recruited EARLY by corp A or gov B. Being offered a full scholarship to university A or B goes a long way to making friends. Yes, most mages work for the gov or corps are treated like royalty by simple virtue of supply and demand.
So who's left? Any self taught mage, any "retired" mages or those with enough money and influence to say "no no, our son/daughter is just fine, please piss off, no one here needs your help Mr.Johnson."
But once again guys, I feel we may be beating this one into unconsciousness.
The bottom line, rather officially, must therefore be:
The restrictions and legalities attached to magic and their effect in the game are entirely based on the game master. In one game, it might be a simple matter to get everything registered, get permits and use all of them for any activity and never fear any form of prosecution. It is however just as likely that mage cops and elemental patrols are a fact of everyday life for mages who, based on their rarity, that any registered mage is usually on a first name basis with local law enforcement. (since they ask questions a lot).
It COMPLETELY depends on the game you're in and there are arguments for and against any individual facet of this pickle.
Sunday.
It may very well be leftover kneejerk reaction to the abusive power levels mages could reach without breaking a sweat in SR2.
The other is sort of a house rule I guess, we just don't like that for a few karma, the mage now has wired reflexes, which if you've ever made a sam, you know those bad boys take a big piece of your essence. We just didn't think it was "right".
However, I stand by my assessment of what scared people do in the case of mundanes vs magic. Yes I believe that most mages are recruited EARLY by corp A or gov B. Being offered a full scholarship to university A or B goes a long way to making friends. Yes, most mages work for the gov or corps are treated like royalty by simple virtue of supply and demand.
So who's left? Any self taught mage, any "retired" mages or those with enough money and influence to say "no no, our son/daughter is just fine, please piss off, no one here needs your help Mr.Johnson."
But once again guys, I feel we may be beating this one into unconsciousness.
The bottom line, rather officially, must therefore be:
The restrictions and legalities attached to magic and their effect in the game are entirely based on the game master. In one game, it might be a simple matter to get everything registered, get permits and use all of them for any activity and never fear any form of prosecution. It is however just as likely that mage cops and elemental patrols are a fact of everyday life for mages who, based on their rarity, that any registered mage is usually on a first name basis with local law enforcement. (since they ask questions a lot).
It COMPLETELY depends on the game you're in and there are arguments for and against any individual facet of this pickle.
Sunday.
Well, I as a GM use the called shot rules slightly modified from the faq (higher TNs and I apply both lack of armor and the stage because it just makes sense), and have in the 10+ years I've been playing never found them to overpowerful. If the players use called shots too much, so do the NPCs, fixes the problem pretty well.
The armor spell still works against called shots simply because it is a complete aura, there is nowhere to call a shot to that is unarmored. I feel this is also implied (although not explicitly stated as perhaps it should be) in the faq when they say "(Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies)." To me that says if you call a shot to a location that still has armor, that armor applies. The preceding sentence is perhaps poorly worded, but I don't think it was the intent to allow called shots to bypass the armor spell.
The armor spell still works against called shots simply because it is a complete aura, there is nowhere to call a shot to that is unarmored. I feel this is also implied (although not explicitly stated as perhaps it should be) in the faq when they say "(Note that the attacker can simply choose a location on the target that is less armored, rather than bypassing the armor completely, so that only the armor in that location applies)." To me that says if you call a shot to a location that still has armor, that armor applies. The preceding sentence is perhaps poorly worded, but I don't think it was the intent to allow called shots to bypass the armor spell.
The precice frequency, and attitudes towards magic, do vary from game to game. However...
| QUOTE |
| First, the Awakened represent the smallest minority of the population. Only 1 percent of the people in the Sixth world can use magic. A fraction of that percentage are aspected magicians, [or] never get the proper training, or a crazy trying to deal with the gift. |
Emphasis added. If only a fraction of that 1% are aspected, which incidentally includes adepts, that means the non-fractional majority are full mages.
But fraction isn't an informative term. A fraction of the remaining could be 1/1000000000th or 999999999/1000000000ths.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| But fraction isn't an informative term. A fraction of the remaining could be 1/1000000000th or 999999999/1000000000ths. ~J |
Generally, when someone says a fraction of something, without further clarification, they mean a number smaller than 1/2, usually along the lines of a third or a fourth or a tenth.
Use it in a sentence and see what makes sense to you. "I ate a fraction of the pie" Without any further context or clarification, what would you assume? Would you assume that the said individual ate 99/100's of the pie, or would you assume that he ate 1/4th of the pie?
Regardless, each game is different. In my games, full mages are about 1/5 to 1/10 of all awakened. This is, of course, not the One True Answer, but merely one of the many, myriad variations. Whichever works best for your game is what should be used.
Oh, and on a side note, I'm so glad that Polaris managed to find time find the new boards.
Derek
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| a troll with ultrasound, smartlink and a panther should make short work of that mage |
Listen to yourself. That's like saying that a streetsame wearing the Shroud of Shadows isn't unbalanced because hey, you can just hit him with a heavy railgun.
~J
I'll also add this much-- IMG, any place with any security will have wards up. Low-force wards, to be sure, but they'll have them. Wards are cheap and easy, and since most mundanes won't know how effective (or ineffective) a force-2 ward can be, I can see a magical security company going around and setting them up on the local McHughs.
Anyone who wants to go through them with quickened spells can do so, but they'll trigger an alarm. You may not get arrested, but anyone packing quickened spells IMG is guaranteed to be harassed by Lone Star on a regular basis.
Anyone who wants to go through them with quickened spells can do so, but they'll trigger an alarm. You may not get arrested, but anyone packing quickened spells IMG is guaranteed to be harassed by Lone Star on a regular basis.
Cain,
Reread that sentence in context. 1% of the population have a magic attribute. This we do not dispute.
A fraction of that are aspected...let's call it about a third.
OR
A fraction of that never get the proper training..let's call that another third or so.
OR
A fraction of that go insane....let's call that about a third or so.
Thus while each individual statement is less than half the pie, when you factor them all in together, you find that most awakened people are not PC grade full mages (or shamans). Thus I feel that my approximation (1:10) is very reasonable as does apparently Derek. My argument is based entirely on that.
As for low force wards, only those that can astrally perceive can set them up, and that is only a fraction of all awakened people (most adepts can not do this for example). That means that you will pay through the snout for even the weakest of wards....which is a resource that most shadowrun teams get for free because they do have a resident mage (and wards don't cost karma unless you make the pernament....and they last so long that there is almost never any reason to do this). That means that most businesses will not have much in the way of astral security (which is why there is a market for awakened vines and other defenses that are so much worse than wards).
Also bear in mind that while the security mage may know the instant the ward is breeched, he will likely be completely helpless to do anything about it. Sure he could get there astrally, but the astral security mage is helpless against the mundane runners and can be counterattacked easily by the runner's own magical support....and all the AAA resources in the world are unlikely to help him in this situation....thus most security mages will not do this and take their time to get there physically instead (so they can do some good). Unfortunately even a five minute response time (which is damn awesome) is in most cases far too late.
As for Lonestar and DIPS, the response time is worse....often so much so it is a joke.
As for Lonestar hassling a mage with the paperwork on a regular basis, they had better not. No corp wants to be hit with a multimillion nuyen lawsuit that they would lose...and there are plenty of legal eagles even in shadowrun that would love to take such a case. The corp won't do it; it hurts the bottom line too much and in too many ways.
Lucy,
The way the FAQ is worded, the called shot bypasses all armor regardless of the type of armor or the circumstance. You yourself said that this didn't make sense. I take a simpler view; I think it is assinine. That is especially true with something like the armor spell which covers the entire body without break which is something no normal armor can do.
hobgoblin,
You see 6/4 armor and you freak. I can prove that you can wear 6/4 armor with a quickness of four and you wouldn't even draw a second glance and would even fit in even in the most tres chic of establishments.
The FFBA is noticed on a TN of 12 IIRC...and that number is even higher without the hood. You then wear over it, the Dallas Line for Men which is TRES CHIC clothing with a conceal of 12. Both are perfectly legal and the later is even a power-suit for an executive in the CAS. The Dallas Line for Men gives 4/2.
Already your mage has 6/2 armor and it is virtually invisible....and even fashionable. With a slightly higher quickness, your options increase with very little loss of concealability. Thus when people freak about armor and how it has negative social consequences, they don't consider the power of layering.
-Polaris
Reread that sentence in context. 1% of the population have a magic attribute. This we do not dispute.
A fraction of that are aspected...let's call it about a third.
OR
A fraction of that never get the proper training..let's call that another third or so.
OR
A fraction of that go insane....let's call that about a third or so.
Thus while each individual statement is less than half the pie, when you factor them all in together, you find that most awakened people are not PC grade full mages (or shamans). Thus I feel that my approximation (1:10) is very reasonable as does apparently Derek. My argument is based entirely on that.
As for low force wards, only those that can astrally perceive can set them up, and that is only a fraction of all awakened people (most adepts can not do this for example). That means that you will pay through the snout for even the weakest of wards....which is a resource that most shadowrun teams get for free because they do have a resident mage (and wards don't cost karma unless you make the pernament....and they last so long that there is almost never any reason to do this). That means that most businesses will not have much in the way of astral security (which is why there is a market for awakened vines and other defenses that are so much worse than wards).
Also bear in mind that while the security mage may know the instant the ward is breeched, he will likely be completely helpless to do anything about it. Sure he could get there astrally, but the astral security mage is helpless against the mundane runners and can be counterattacked easily by the runner's own magical support....and all the AAA resources in the world are unlikely to help him in this situation....thus most security mages will not do this and take their time to get there physically instead (so they can do some good). Unfortunately even a five minute response time (which is damn awesome) is in most cases far too late.
As for Lonestar and DIPS, the response time is worse....often so much so it is a joke.
As for Lonestar hassling a mage with the paperwork on a regular basis, they had better not. No corp wants to be hit with a multimillion nuyen lawsuit that they would lose...and there are plenty of legal eagles even in shadowrun that would love to take such a case. The corp won't do it; it hurts the bottom line too much and in too many ways.
Lucy,
The way the FAQ is worded, the called shot bypasses all armor regardless of the type of armor or the circumstance. You yourself said that this didn't make sense. I take a simpler view; I think it is assinine. That is especially true with something like the armor spell which covers the entire body without break which is something no normal armor can do.
hobgoblin,
You see 6/4 armor and you freak. I can prove that you can wear 6/4 armor with a quickness of four and you wouldn't even draw a second glance and would even fit in even in the most tres chic of establishments.
The FFBA is noticed on a TN of 12 IIRC...and that number is even higher without the hood. You then wear over it, the Dallas Line for Men which is TRES CHIC clothing with a conceal of 12. Both are perfectly legal and the later is even a power-suit for an executive in the CAS. The Dallas Line for Men gives 4/2.
Already your mage has 6/2 armor and it is virtually invisible....and even fashionable. With a slightly higher quickness, your options increase with very little loss of concealability. Thus when people freak about armor and how it has negative social consequences, they don't consider the power of layering.
-Polaris
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.