Plus a jury would be disinclined to help someone who knowingly disregarded a sign warning them of the potential destruction of their property and alerting them that such items could be checked through by a security mage.

~J

Magical trinkets are chic for modern society since the start of the Comet's passage, as per YotC and SSG. Though the books state that almost all of these are fake.

Guys,

Nope...sorry the spiked strip example doesn't fly. You see with the spiked strip, the car can still enter the building in a legal way with no search and seizure issues and with no chance of property damage.

This is not true with the use of wards that have been proposed. If you ward the entire fragging building, then you are in fact discriminating against an entire class of people (those that have or use magical items or spells) and you are doing so preferrentially against those that do obey the law.

That will get you an expensive lawsuit PDQ.

You can get around this by having security mages check in and/or allow people through wards in conjunction with posted notices. However, since Mages earn about as much as Doctors, Lawyers, and Mechanics per hour this is simply unviable for must businesses. Megacorps can get away with it because megacorps are their own law. Likewise the government can get away with it because public-safety can outweigh private convenience.

Neither of these applies at Joe's diner. Use some god given fragging sense people and stop trying to frag over the mage at the risk of looking silly. Private rooms may have wards...even strong ones, but you won't see them in public, period.

-Polaris

If it's a fancy restaurant, it'll have a mage on staff.
If it isn't, it probably won't be warded, but even if it were the point will be irrelevant, because generally people with magical trinkets won't be going there.

~J

Child,
You will see them in my games once Shedim attack Joe's using fried chicken and skinned cats from the kitchen.

Cain,

You can't always do that. For example if you had a restaurant that posted, "No Coloreds Allowed", would that owner be liable for a lawsuit?

YOU BET! The same applies in SR to saying "No Orcs Allowed." That is canon btw.

The same logic applies here. The mundane owner of a quickened and/or sustained effect CAN NOT bypass the ward by simply obeying the printed notice. That makes the practice disciminatory and thus unlawful. This can by bypassed by having a security mage on staff. A government building (such as a courthouse) will have this. A private restaurant may not (because it costs too much).

Clearer now? Please use your common sense and stop trying to screw over magic on stupid shit. If you have this much trouble with magic, make it weaker. As it is magic is probably too good....but accept that and deal with it rather than trying to make issues (like wards in public places) that any fool can tell you probably won't exist.

-Polaris

Has anyone brought up SURGE yet? I've been trying to stay away from this whole thread because of how heated it's gotten, but my character somehow managed to roll the best roll of his life. Too bad it was checking to see if he was affected by SURGE. Now he's dual natured (among other things). If they start warding up courthouses and movie theaters and restaurants, it's going to make his life so much more difficult. It'd be like being confined to a wheelchair, but these places have no handicap entrances.

Dual Natured was mentioned.

Your character might have a legitimate claim in a civil case for discrimination -who you try to sue will determine how short your life span is.

Kanada,

Nope. I haven't changed my logic once. It all comes back to the same old problem:

You can not turn a ward off and wards are stupid, i.e. they will attempt to destroy any magical item or anything with a dual nature regardless of source or threat.

That is what makes the owner of the ward liable. Thus the property damage argument and the discriminatory argument both follow from the same logic. This practice is illegal.

Friggas Ring's argument is spang on. It is exactly like trying to run a public place without a handicapped entrance. That is unfair, discriminatory, and illegal. You must have a way to allow perfectly legal and valid citizens who happen to have legal spells, items, or happen to be dual natured through the ward. If you can't, then you can not use the ward but must use something else (like biofibre).

That *is* the law, and since it is canonical that UCAS inherited the civil rights legislation from both Canada and the US, it is UCAS law as well.

-Polaris

Kanada,

Nope. Even in shadowrun, you can't kill a lawsuit by killing the plaintiff. That is why megacorps and the corporate court insist on extrality.

1. In most lawsuits, you have multiple plaintiffs including groups of interested parties (such as the ACLU or in SR the ACCLU).

2. Just because you kill the plaintiff, does not mean you kill the lawsuit. The heirs of the person can continue the case (and often will) and many judges will hear the case anyway. Post-Mortem liability awards are not unknown.

-Polaris

It requires an act of Congress to declare a non-homo sapiens citizenship. Until SURGE, no homo sapiens was dual natured. So until the case comes to court... which depends on the GM (it took how long to get rid of segregation?).

And as I've said: you can allow someone through a ward with advanced permission. It is no different than requiring reservations.

Kanda,

Now you are reaching. A person affected with SURGE can still breed with a normal human being. That is a proven fact. Thus the person is a homo sapiens and has full legal rights.

NEXT!

-Polaris

Reread my post.

[added for the fun of it]
Ward makers earn 100 nuyen per hour, they need not be mages.
So, not quite as much as doctors and lawyers for that.

He's got a point. Example: "You must be this tall to ride!"

~J

Bitbasher,

Sorry but that is not entirely true. For example, if you have an establishment open to the public, you can post "No Dogs Allowed" and you would be on very firm legal ground.

HOWEVER.....

If a blind person comes in with a Seeing Eye Dog, then you must allow that Dog into the establishment. That *is* the law.

As for protected class, it doesn't work quite the way you mentioned. The default assumption is that a person falls into a protected class unless you can show good reason (usually safety) why they can't. Thus it is legal for safety reasons to prohibit a person from taking an amusement park ride because they don't fall in a certain band of height and weight. Safety is the overriding concern. HOWEVER, you would be sued (and you would lose) if you tried to open up a burger stand and you refused to serve anyone under five feet tall.

The same applies here. You have to SHOW that there is an overriding need to prohibit dual-natured citizens from frequenting your establishment. You can't. Peroid. Likewise you would have to SHOW an overriding need to prohibit all magical items....and likewise you can't. What you can do is have a mage on staff that inspects and allows certain people and items through, but that still bypasses the ward. This *is* done in courtrooms and airports. If you have (for example) a pace-maker, you don't have to go through the metal detector. The guards will wave you down with wands instead and then allow you to bypass the detector.

The same applies here. There is simply NO WAY that wards in small businesses would be as prevalent as you all are trying to make them. Legal and Fiscal considerations preclude it. Stop trying to "screw" the mages and start using some sense please.

-Polaris

There is simply no way you can convince me that magic is not considered dangerous to public safety.

Kanada,

I shouldn't have to because it is well know that not all magic is dangerous to public safety. In fact minor magical effects and items have become tres chic for those that can afford them, and those are verifiably not dangerous.

What more do you need? To put wards the way you want to, you would have to show that all magica was so dangerous that you could discrimate on that basis....and you can't...especially since most magical effects so discriminated against are in fact on mundanes.

-Polaris

Hackers are not as a class dangerous, they are just computer coders. Buy if I go to a resturant with a shirt that says "Hackers Rule" they are within there rights to deny me entrance.

Kanada,

Actually the establishment is on very shaky grounds in so doing. The thing is a 'hacker' is considered a criminal and the restaurant can argue that you are promoting criminal activity. Silly, but they can say that. That can not be said for magic. The person with the magical item or (especially!) the person that is dual natured is NOT interfering with the decorum of other guests (because magic is invisible).

Thus there is a FAR cry from refusing entrance to someone that doesn't fulfill the dress code (which is offensive to the other patrons) to someone having a perfectly legal item....or even a property that can not be seen by others.

To use your restaurant example, while a restaurant might get away with refusing service to a person wearing obnoxious clothing (said T-Shirt) because it offends other patrons, they would NOT be able to get away with denying serivice to an old woman with a truly loathesome wart. Look it up; that is discrimination. Same applies for anyone that is dual natured...and thus wards become too problematic to be used in general public areas.

Use some common sense please.

-Polaris

P.S. Hackers as a class are dangerous because the common definition of Hacker is "Computer Criminal". I know; I know that it should be 'cracker' but that is not the common usage....and thus your argument falls apart because 'Hacker' as popularly known does label a class of dangerous person.

See, the creating mage can always allow people to bypass his own ward; and any member of a warding team can allow anyone to bypass it. Their presence isn't even required to do so. A simple call to your magical security company will allow anyone carrying active magic to bypass the ward.

Common sense and game balance dictate that wards would therefore be very common, even if not at high force ratings. The Shedim threat alone would convince most people to ward their larders; a small advertising campaign would make it even more common than that. If someone wants to get through with active magic, they will just need to wait a bit.

There's no reason to whinge just because your magic isn't ungodly powerful in game. There's no reason to cry "unfair!" just because the GM tells you that you can't get away with everything. It's the GM's call, and in addition to being perfectly legal and appropriate for the setting, you have the right to leave the game if you don't like basic challenges like this. If you prefer a game where Harlequin is a wimp, and you've made Lowfyr into your personal golf caddy, then go for it.

Cain,

It isn't as easy as just opening a door. The mage in question has to know who or what he is letting through and then attune the ward accordingly. That implies that the mage has to be present (or at least in LOS because that is how most magical connections are made).

That is common sense. It seems to me that too many people want to hose the mage and too few people are really thinking through the consequences to everyone else. It is about time that some of us did.

-Polaris

P.S. I hear about Shedim, but they aren't really a public threat. Really, they aren't. They are only a threat to:

1. The recently dead (which is going to exclude most public places I should think).

2. Those that astrally project....and in such a case safety does become an overriding issue.

Really, that's it. Most mundanes have next to nothing to fear from Shedim (just one more attempt to screw the mage).

Kanada,

*I* don't have common sense?! This is from the person that would piss off every dragon and senior VP in the Greater Seattle Area?!

Please.

Those powers have no effect on Mundanes unless they can get into a host. A standard Shedim is an astral creature and subject to the limitations inherent in that. That means that mundanes are generally immune unless the Shedim can find a host. That would occure near morgues, accident scenes, and cemetaries....not Joe's Diner. Get a clue and read up on Astral Space please.

-Polaris

now i dont have hte book describing shedim in detail but in sota:63 i think there is a story where someone going fully astral (as in leaving his body) ends up having his body taken over by a shedim, and as a mage can do this anywhere (just takes an exclusive action) the fear can be that a mage can go "postal" at any moment...

to me common sense dictates that if a fence is clearly marked as electric and someone comes in willing contact with it then its theyre fault (US law dont equal common sense), same deal with a ward in a public area. and if its up to protect 99% of the people visiting the place then you will have a hard time sueing them when your foci goes bust, unless your some high up man that is but thats another story...

allso, this is a game, you play it your way, i play it mine, and im damn sure that we will never play in the same game in any near future...

You think these fancy-smancy debutante types are more concerned about their appearances (there's no Health spell needing sustaining) than they are about all that hocus-pocus magic that lets people touch you in private areas without you knowing, or listening in on you trying to talk about some important nonsense?

Seriously now... there's no reason any "legal" spell (Force 2 or 1) is going to be so much more important to someone out on the town than some amount of privacy that only a Warded place can provide. The beliefs, no matter how unrealistic they can seem (such as the touching private places), will be fueled by the internal paranoia of the mind. Hell, I bet in 2060's people wear aluminum foil hats to keep the Magic types from reading their thoughts. Granted, that'd (hopefully) be a minority, but the point remains that people will make it worse than it is, and any upstanding, well-to-do citizen is going to aim for the Warded Cafe before the Unwarded, bring your doo-hickeys in here Cafe.

Wards on public places is common-sense. People need that comfort-level that says they are free to be themselves without feeling spied on.

Sphynx

Actually, it would only screw non-munchkins and non-powergamers. Average wards (Force 5 or lower) will only block a Force 1 or 2 foci.

Sphynx

well, it may not remove the foci or spell directly but it will warn whoever set up the ward that hey there is a very powerful magican walking about, better bring out te heavy guns if he is trespassing...

But, but, but, if you Guys just used common sense, you would see the One True Way.

Derek

Actualy, people carrying legal foci and Quickenings can simply declare their spells, and be allowed through. It's the ones packing illegal stuff that have to worry.

Also keep in mind that a sustained or quickened spell is a voluntary process, thus a luxury, not a requirement. There is no way they would gain a protected class status, and please Polaris, reread my point in my last post regarding "due hardship" and dual natured people, I put it there for a reason and you ignored it.

Also note my post was only referring to government buildings such as courthouses, not small businesses.

Also keep in mine there is absolutely NO guarentee that any current liability law can be upheld in SR in any way shape or form.

All of my previous post was supported and backed by a member of Internal Affairs here, which is why I posted it. You know, that part of a police department that handles investigations as to what is discrimination and the consequences of those actions regarding Police Employees? I have solid information, I am not assuming.

Bitbasher,

Did you tell your friend about Sasquatches and Dragons. They are citizens. They are also dual natured and they can NOT turn that off. Same applies to many victims of SURGE.

In short, liability can be a major concern.

-Polaris

saquatches are recognized as sentient, but cannot AFAIK get a SIN or become anything more than a probationary citizen with limited rights.

Dragons can EASILY phase through any ward you can hope to put up, so the point is kinda moot =)

I didn't know that sasquatches are dual natured.. is that true? can anyone back that up? That may be true and if it is it will make a difference in my game, making someone's life a lot harder...

Even if bolth those are legal citizens with entitled rights it would work the same as handicapped access, which is the company must provide access unless it would cause them a financial hardship to do so. You may not know this, but not all business have to provide handicapped access. Small business that can show that doing so would cause them a financial hardship do not have to do so. In most cases it would be as simple as making an appointment in advance. It is still definitely possible to allow them in a building with prior notice.

EDIT: after looking the dragon thing up, all dragons are NOT citizens, they are however recongnized as a sentient race. Dunkelzahn was a citizen, and it took an act of congress to make him, and him alone a citizen and eligible for public office.

Bitbasher,

My parents were small business owners, and while they might not have been required to provide a special handicapped access, they *did* have to make it possible for a handicapped person to do business....or face legal sanction. This I do know for a fact.

In addition, you are talking about something slightly different than wards. In the case of handicapped entrances, you are forcing the owner to build something to allow access. In the case of wards you are deliberately and with aforethought putting up something that forbids access and does so in a discriminatory manner. That is a big no-no.

Also, it is true that Dragons can bash through those wards with the greatest of ease....but then you are forcing a perfectly valid private citizen to destroy your property (the ward) just to do business with you. That is a bad idea....especially when the plaintiff is a Dragon.......and I remind you that Dragons don't always look like Dragons (but they are always dual natured).

I am not saying that there might not be private roomes with wards and I am not saying that public building (courthouses, airports, etc) would not have wards....but they would have security mages on staff to insure that people could legally pass through them. For example at an airport you do NOT have to go through a metal detector. That's right....you don't. What you have to do is declare some reason why you can't....and then you will be searched aside from it and then allowed to bypass the detector. That applies to a variety of people (and some such as military couriers are exempt from searches altogether). The point is that the security company MUST provide this alternate access...even in public places.

Given all of that, there is simply no way that Joe's Diner on 6th and Pike is going to have a ward over the entire building. Won't happen. There may be one in the larder (against Shedim) and there might be one for a designated private room, but that would be it. Yes, this is simple common sense. A mage could have enough (legal!...remember permits!) mojo to light up 10 city blocks and still be able to eat at a five-star restaurant. In fact many very potent mages do just that everyday in SR.

-Polaris

Edit: If a Dragon is recognized as sentient, then it has legal rights...even as a resident alien. Sentience implies the ability to gain citizenship through naturalization, and if a dragon were hatched in UCAS territory or woke up there, IIRC it is considered a citizen by birth. That's how Dunklezehn became president after all.....he was considered native born.

Sphynx,

If these upper class places did maintain such wards then they would also need the magical escorts to go along with them to allow legitamate guests (such as Dragons and the like) through. In fact that would not only protect them against liability, it would also add to the high-class feel of the place.

Of course magical services like this (even being on call) are *very* expensive and most places wouldn't have it. That is my real point. A mage can be able to have enough mojo to light up ten city blocks and still (if he has the permits) lead a normal life. That is contrary to what a lot here were claiming.

-Polaris

Not at all. Wards don't dispel when you go through them, they're little more than warnings which can happen to destroy Force 2 or Force 1 Active Foci, and keep out all weak spirits as well as sustained spells, ranged critter powers, etc. Dragons and the like won't have any trouble at all going through a ward, though someone will know that a magical type just entered and may ask them to leave if they weren't smart enough to mention their 'special case' before hand.

Us Dual Natured ones are the ones with the hard time... I wouldn't even try to go through a Force 5 Ward (2 successes needed on a charisma roll with a TN equal to the Force which is usually 5) if I didn't have my Trauma Dampener. I'd be guaranteed to take Deadly drain (10D for a Force 5) and risk a Magic Loss. I'm already guaranteed to take a Serious drain for walking through it (since I can't take 10S down at all). meaning I have to wait long enough for 3 boxes to heal (90 minutes on average for my PC) before I leave the place to take another 10S stun drain for 9 boxes total. Like I said, it's been a LONG time since I've gone into a Fancy 5-Star anything. And I can't seem to convince myself that I should raise my Charisma since I kinda like the dirty, careless and crude character my Dwarf portrays.

Another interesting point that I avoided bringing up cause I just know I'm gonna hear alot of jabber on it... but there's nothing saying you need either Astral Perception or even a Magic Rating to be part of the 'group' to setup a Ward. Now, I realize it's heavily implied but, unlike Ritual Sorcery, it never actually says it. So, you -could-, as a GM, have your Bar/Restaurant/Shop Owner as part of the group (despite being mundane) so that he could personally welcome in certain guests who've gone the extra mile to make him aware of their predictament. No need for a Security Mage to be onHand. Granted, that's bending the rules a bit, but, it's not expressly forbidden.

Sphynx

Sphynx,

Yeah....*you* are going to tell a dragon to leave? Especially one with legitamate business? I doubt it.

You are right that bashing through the ward doesn't actually destroy it, but it does damage it (eventually requiring the owner to have the ward remade) so it is property damage. Forcing a dual natured person to damage property just to do business is discriminatory and a bad idea.

Also I read the rules on page 174 of the main book regarding Wards. Two things:

1. As I read it, you do have to be awakened and be able to astrally percieve to make a ward. In fact this is explicitly stated. I would certainly rule (and I think most here would agree) that you can not participate in making a ward unless you can in fact make one yourself.

2. The magicians cost 100 nuyen per hour for having the ward available. It does not say 100 nuyen per hour to set up. That makes wards a very expensive proposition to say the least!!

-Polaris

What's going to cost more, a few grand a month for some weak astral security or the neglicence lawsuits which occur when something DOES go down. Let's forget about barrier wards at all.

What most businesses would end up with would be an alarm ward over the entire building and barrier wards over areas which are critical (in a restaurant, the kitchens, for instance) and non-customer oriented. My original assessment of pricing plans for a service that just monitors is probably reasonable, as well.

Sorry Cain, but being Dual Natured does't make a persin an unintelligent player, and neither does power-gaming. I (as a character) am inconvenienced by Wards, so don't be so insulting, even if you don't like "power-gaming" types. Playing differently than you doesn't make me (nor anyone else) unintelligent at all.

As for the 100 nuyen per hour, Polaris is right, it DOES say it's 100 per hour to "maintain", not "create". So, you could have a Sec Mage there to 'let people through' at 100 an hour. I had mis-read it previously.

Sphynx

Actually, it doesn't say that. It says they typically charge 100 per hour per mage. It doesn't say that they're needed every moment of every day to maintain the ward. Since the only time listed is the time needed to create a ward, it's pretty clear that's what they meant. If they meant 2400 nuyen per day per mage, the book would have said as much; it's pretty clear on other costs, after all.

And even your dual-natured character wouldn't be overly inconvenienced; it's only if he's packing a great deal of illegal Quickenings or foci that he would be in trouble. Which, since he has permits for everything, isn't the case.