Derek,

You are right; I don't give a flying piece of fecal matter what you think. However, english is still english.

When you say a fraction of X are A or B, or C, this is grammaric shorthand for saying:

A fraction of X are A

OR

A fraction of X are B

OR

A fraction of X are C.

Thus your 1:10 intepretation is right in line with what is written. Thus Cain is simply wrong....as he was on other rules points earlier (vis a vis selling back spell points at character creation) and again I am simply calling him on it; no more.

-Polaris

Err, no.

But please continue to misinterpret it to your benefit in an argument

Derek

Derek,

Go ahead and ask Fan-Pro, but any person with a magic attribute at all is vanishingly rare, and full magicians are rarer still. I am reading the english correctly.....but please go ahead and ask Fan Pro is you doubt me.

Even if half the people with magic were full mages or shamans (a point I am not willing to conceed), my argument is still very valid. You have 1.5 million (with this assumption) over the entire UCAS. Of that, you have to account for magical talismongers, researchers, apprenti, other professionals...ect ect. The fact is that most "wage mages" will not be suited for security work either as runners or as corp security or as police (not to mention the fact that even with bonuses, most security and police corps will not be able to pay what a mage could demand on the open market).

In short, my numbers are if anything generous....and that is the problem. In my experience about half the PCs in shadowrun are awakened in one form or another, and a good third are full mages or shamans. You are silly not to be in this system. However, because such people are so rare in the world, they run roughshod over things that would leave street sams in the dust.

-Polaris

So far all Ive seen far as broken mages is that some spells can make a mage an uber tank. I suppose that might be a relative problem, because in our games its common place to see sams in armors from 6/4 to 8/8 out of the box, with bodys of 6 to 12 if not more (the values here depend on what the sam is doing besides sam-ing). So for us, it seems best case the mage is almost as good as the sam, but uses magic instead of cyber to do it. Imo thats nbd, its just a new twist on how to accomplish an old idea.

I still have yet to see anything that is really broken. I think its been settled that legality isnt a huge issue although is something that does need to be taken into consideration. Its also been pointed out that most one trick ponys can be delt with in some way. The actual fraction of the populace thats magical is irrelevent to a game breaking example, at least insofar as the example itself (more magic makes it easier to cope with I suppose but theres always a way to down someone, nbd).

Its really not that unbalanced at all. Its hard for a mage to buff any stat above 4 reliable, and by at most 6, meaning their attributes are probably going to cap out around 10 as a ballpark figure, which isnt too high compared to other methods of raising them. Armor at best gets them to street sam levels, nothing really broken. Same with initiative. Levitate can be used to circumvent several security measures and perhaps help with hearing based stealth (since they dont have footfalls) but again, this is largly just a magician version of adept powers. Invis is perhaps the best spell for the "bonus" it gives you, but really without having invis many runs become a nightmare to realistically pull off (as in the GM doesnt pull punches) so Id consider it good but in a way not outside the system.

I dont mean to keep shooting everyone down, but really I cant think of an example that is so powerful to be problematic, and the ones listed so far, while effective, arent really any more so than other ways of doing things.

Perhaps at very high karma levels things might change. As Polaris pointed out you could look at karma-sink as unlimited-potential, but when you hit that stage of development youve probably moved into the appropriate circles of game-plot (like dealing with the big boys, international jobs, hitting triple-a hqs, etc) to where the opposition is going to be in the same boat. So if there is an example of such a case, it needs to be relative to appropriatly scaled opposition.

Just my thoughts on the thread so far.

Exactly.

Sphynx

Guys,

Out of the box the Mage is not broken. White Dwarf is quite right when he points out that a Mage gets his uber-tank stats with magic rather than a Sam getting them with 'ware. However, even then the Mage has the edge that the magic will in general cost far less than the 'ware. At char-gen this is not a big deal since a full mage will have to take very high priorities in resources to take advantage of this (and Sams can put A into resources while Mages can not). It becomes more problematic with human mages in point buy since a human mage can effectively buy both A in Magic and Resources.

The problem really lies in the fact that a Mage has unlimited potential from improvement after character generation while a Sam (or any other Mundane for that matter) really does not. A Street Sam will generally start out with his important stats at or near the absolute maximum (a cinch with bioware) which means that he only means of improvement is:

A. Upgrading 'Ware.

B. Improving Skills.

The problem with 'A' is that the body only has so much essense and thus there is a hard limit to how much 'ware you can buy even if you assume Delta Grade.

The problem with 'B' is that you get a geometrically increasing cost for skills while the increase in effectiveness is really logrithimic. In short, high skill levels blow for the karma you spend on them.

None of that applies to the mage (or shaman). The mage or shaman can spend is 200th karma point just as efficiently as his first and that means his power level quickly becomes broken.

Finally as for the argument that mages can not boost their stats much above four or so, this is wrong. You have two mages in the party...call them Bob and Fred. Bob and Fred both know the Decrease Attribute spell for Will-Power, Charisma, Intelligence and any other attribute they want to boost. They of course both know the increase attribute spell for all of these. In addition both know the quickening metamagic technique.

None of this is unreasonable for experienced mages of 50-150 earned karma. OK, lets assume Bob and Fred both have Willpower scores of 7 (natural) which is perfectly reasonable for any solid mage. Assume also that neither has any cyber (which is fairly normal). Bob casts decrease Willpower on Fred at force 5 and does it until he drains the stat by five. He now sustains the spell. Fred now casts increase Willpower at force 7 with a sorcery (spellcasting) skill of 8 with an expendible healing focus, and with a spell pool of 6 (i.e. 20 dice). His target numbers are two (because of the decrease willpower spell). Naturally, he gets more than 14 successes and so gains +7 Willpower. Bob now stops sustaining his Decrease Willpower spell. Fred now has a quickened Willpower of 14 with an effective force of 14 (vs Dispelling and Disruption). Now Fred and Bob switch places.

Rinse, Lather, and Repeat for all high stats.

Conclusion: With relatively little Karma, a Mage's stats can be boosted to 15, 20 or even more.....even stats that can not be boosted by 'Ware. This is a huge advantage to the mage.

-Polaris

Ok, first half of the post is irrelevant Pol, everyone knows that the advancement cap for mages is endless, that3s a nice discussion in another thread actually.

2nd half is an attempt to show the unbalance. You've shown that for a base price of 12+ karma (initiation with group) and an additional 12+ karma (Force 6 Quickened) you can start taking your attributes up to 12 each, rather easily. You should have left out the decrease attribute stuff though, any GM worth his salt won't allow that, we personally only 'negate' effects with a stacked increased, meaning that once the decrease was gone, the increased was as well, quickened or not. We also House Rule that any stat increase which is a TN for a sustained spell causes the sustained spell to dissipate, which is why my +3D6 character won't touch his Int, Qui, or Reaction via spells or karma. You can still do the +6 via 12 Force of Exp Foci and 3 Karma Pool though, quite easily, so this isn't a reply to deny it's possible to get an additional 6+ to a stat.

Anyhows, the suggestion is that the minimal of 24 Karma to get +6 to a stat is unbalancing. I agree with you in that it's FAR too cheap, would be impressive to hear anyone deny that fact. I am all for House Ruling some limitations (such as our own House Rules) that make the 12 karma a possible waste (needing to re-quicken later). The inherent weakness is that the Quicken is NOT a true attribute advancement, it can go away, which is not the case of Bio or Cyberware. If you're ever given a reason, as a GM to reduce the successes, or negate the spell, take it, just be careful since karma quickening IS expensive if you find you keep having to do it. Good times are the same times you'd test for Magic loss. Not to mention that anything lower than Force 6 (12 Karma Quickened) is easy to take down by at least a notch with a simple spirit attack, or any other form of astral attack on the spell, including Wards.

There are a million and one reasons why spending the Karma to just advance the attribute, or spending the Essence to improve it is worth it, such as skill advancement which relies on Natural stats. Magically Boosted stats don't make the skills cheaper. 1 success against the spell reduces the successes by 1, and even with a TN of 12, that's a very possible roll, though it'll most likely happen when you, as the GM, don't intend for it to happen. 1 success is often enough to reduce your successes enough to give you a -1 to your attribute.

I don't think it's unbalancing at all, it's why I make it a point to only do these spells at Force 6. If you want to prevent it from happening, as a GM make the spell formula for a Force 6 unavailable, or at least unavailable in Fetish format (making it a real pain to learn the spell). IF they learn it at char gen, well, they start out alot weaker in order to be more powerful later. Anything less than Force 6 and they'll be recasting it often enough that it won't be the big unbalancing factor mentioned.

My GM told me he'd only allow one attribute formula to be found as learnable at Force 6, and won't let me find it with a Fetish. I'm waiting for things to slow down enough to take the months to learn it, until then, my Improved Willpower spell formula is -still- sitting on a shelf in my lodge as I go about learning other Force 3's and 5's in days.

Sphynx

I was wondering how long it would take to bring out the words "right" and "wrong" in this thread.

As Sphynx mentions, endless advancement cap for magicians has already been covered. Infinite advancement cap for everyone, actually: only magicians have more possibilities because of their access to unique skills, and dwarves and elves potentially because of their longer lifespans (but isn't the average expected lifespan of a shadowrunner in the range of 5 years anyway?). Doesn't apply in any case unless either the campaign is of infinite length (and how many do you know that have gone beyond five game years?) or the amount of karma given out within a given time frame is unusually high. (For some point of comparison with other groups, see Running and Rewards. The Virtual Seattle assumption is one run per month, which gives an approximate maximum of 120 karma a game year.)

To assume percentages of Awakened in general population reflect percentages either in corporations or in shadowrunning groups would probably be inaccurate. Both corporations and shadowrunning teams tend to concentrate the Awakened to begin with - and the Awakened (corps: being more valuable; teams: being less "expendable" than the hoards of wannabe street samurai) are far more likely not to be placed on the front lines, and thus to concentrate further through social Darwinism. The teams with magic support of some kind will generally tend to have better overall survivability than other teams, further increasing the local percentage. However, the teams that will generally tend to have the highest overall survivability will be those that cover all the bases. (Ain't no one who can compete with a highly skilled rigger's Control Pool.)

I think a sidestep into set theory is less than relevant at this point

Im inclined to say that while mages do have a perhaps broader unlimited potential, due to more options to buy with karma, sams can go quite far as well. Having a wider array of skills, and spending cash to get access to better grade implants, will keep both characters quite busy up into the 250+ karma range. Once you start getting near 300 (at least in my experience) you finally start running into some dead ends as a sam, so you might not see a difference until 350, 400+ karma. A problem, but not one that will affect most groups for the majority of the time (unless you play a lot with characters that high).

I do not think that spell example works, because there are many sustained spells where you have to record the number of successes in case the conditions change. One example is an illusion spell such as chaotic world, where you need to know what you rolled because people with varying intelligences might come into or out of the area of effect, changing the spell tns. It seems to me that this should probably fall into the same category, with the spell tn changing as the willpower does, because as you mention it seems rather powerful. However, there isnt really anything to say otherwise besides noting similar game mechanics elsewhere. So, this could be the first example of something overpowering. Youre assumed numbers are fair, which would basically give mages that have played a few games access to willpower 13+. Now you can start with willpowers of at least 9 or 10 if you want, so its not too over the top, but having extra drain dice on hand, as well as being virtually immune to willpower/mana based spells, is rather nice for a magician.

Which means that, assuming this is valid (and besides several gm-call-like reasons I cant find out why it isnt, according to the rules) mages could buff their stats (or anyones really) by basically 6 more, at the expense of having a pair of spells at force 6 and spending karma/cash for a sustaining focus or quickening. So now the question Im asking about this particular instance is, does the investment of two spells and a focus/metamagic balance off the bonus? Figure its 18 karma per attribute for the three things, certainly cheaper than just raising it, but still a few runs of karma the mage is out. Buffing his attributes might not be as effective as initiating or something, which means that you wont see this being a problem until you hit the very high karma levels, when it might start being a problem anyhow. Thoughts?

I have never met a GM in my life that would allow the decrease attribute spell in such a way. Once an attribute changes then previous sucesses based on that attrinute are no longer valid. If somoene anchored an increase quickness spell I would require them to write down the sucesses on the spell so that if the attribute was raised or lowered later that we could easily recalculate the spell's effect.

Honestly, if I had a player come to me and ask to do this I would have a long talk with them and suggest they might be happier in a different game.

I would also like to say that I do not think a mental attribute of 7 is "Reasoable for a solid mage" as no attribute over racial maximum I consider reasonable excepting magic, cyberware or bioware. I would consider it reasonable to have a 7 if they spend the time and 21 karma needed to raise it to that level, which represents 14-42% of the example listed 50-150 karma, or about 4 game sessions, if not more.

Bitbasher,

There is nothing in the rulebook either stated or implied (yes I checked rather thoruoughly) that says that you lose successes on a sustained attribute increase spell if that attribute changes. Certainly if your attribute was boosted by three....say a body of 6(9) and you spent karma to raise that body to 7, then your new attribute would be 7(10). This is identical to the way cyberware works, and it should be no different here.

Furthermore, it is reasonble for a starting mage to have a Willpower of 7. In fact (without 'ware mind you) a starting mage can have a starting Willpower of 9 *without* magical increases.

Race: Dwarf
Edge: Bonus Attribute Point +1 Willpower
Other: Albino

This costs you 6 attribute points (for the 6 Willpower base), Dwarf gives a +1, Albino gives an other +1, and Bonus Attribute gives one more.

Thus my number was if anything low.

In short, my example does work by the book and should be accounted for in the game balance discussion.

-Polaris

Yes, Polaris is correct on the willpower values, which is why I say his numbers are both fair and valid. I would have used force 6 spells because they can be obtained at starting, thus cutting down the amount of karma a runner needs to earn, but using a willpower of 7+7 is the same as 8+6 so its well within the ballpark.

The spell example is what concerns me. While it seems that bitbasher and I are of the same initial opinion regarding the changing tns, Ill freely admit thats my "at a glance" interpretation of it, because the alternative does indeed seem a bit out of whack.

Its interesting to note that some other games limit one attribute from being both buffed and debuffed at the same time. The stronger of the two effects, or the net result apply. Such theory would mean that either only the net increase would apply as dropping the sustained spell also drops the boost, or that its simply impossible to cast both on the same target at once. However, thats in other games and not in shadowrun, without a faq ruling to that effect.

So I repeat, does anyone have/know of a counter to this. And if not, is being able to buff attributes really that breaking to game balance, considereing the levels already obtainable through other means and the limited effect attributes have on actual game mechanics (meaning that you use skills more often than attributes, which are more of a limit to things, with the exception of resisting things; again when you can get body 20 without magic is body 15 or 25 with magic really an issue, etc?

Guts, if they fail the perception test they just fail to notice the clothing is armored, thats all. And the point of this thread was to show that sustaining spells is broken, hence the example of something thats broken. And yes, willpower 7 is reasonable any dwarf with 6 points in willpower has 7. Its within the normal range for them, without using anything like edges or spells or cheating; totally normal.

So, please stop posting about number crunching whatevers and how anything extreme is out of line. The question here is "does something that extreme, regardless of what you think of it, actaully imbalance the game?" And Im rather inclined to say no, not really, in consideration of what else you could do were you to try; at least in the lower stages of the game. I imagine that later on things could change on that front tho, once they get some karma to spare.

The worst thing Ive been able to come up with is boosting the intelligence of a decker, or the willpower of a sorcerer in the manner described; the result of which gets you to say 15ish (would take a reasonably powerful mage, call it force 8 spells with 16 successes, probably a good higher end figure only because it gets hard to get more successes compared to higher force). Which is basically giving the magician or decker more pool (hacking or spell), especially the magician because they wouldnt need to use as much or any pool on drain. But really, how imbalancing is having 4 or 5 (again my guess for pool saved) more pool? If the mage is running Improved Reflexes 3 spell in a focus (again not too out of line) thats like 1 or 2 more dice a turn... better yes but probably more eye candy than game effect. Having never run such a character in game thats my thoughts from the written version. Ideas?

Actually Dwarf ol chum, as the author of the thread, I feel well qualified to state what it's point was and that is:

Sustained spells are very powerful but there are limitations and legal repercussions attached.

So actually it was that sustained spells are NOT too powerful, unless you completely ignore the laws and other limitations at which point and time, well, it's your own fault, deal with it.

Sort of.

But White's points still stand, this isn't about armor concealability, that's for certain.

Sunday.

Well yea, initially, but the topic wandered a bit; perhaps I should say the current topic rather than the threads topic =)

Re: Wards-- according to the BBB, most magical security firms charge around 100 nuyen an hour to set up wards. That means reasonably high-force wards are within the budgets of most mom-and-pop businesses. As always, YMMV, but there's no reason why wards shouldn't be fairly common.

Re: mages-- Derek and others have hit my point. A fraction of all Awakened are aspected and/or untrained and/or insane. We'll even use the Dictionary.com definition:

Reasons to NOT Quicken (since that's the main Sustaining Spell problem)

1) Astral Quests. Go into a plane where Force 1 Watchers walk about with Force 12 Elementals on leashes and your Force 1 spell assenses as 12 times more powerful than that 12 Karma spell (Everything is reverse). GM's have full control when you enter the MetaPlanes and you could easily come out with no Quickens if you play with a GM who doesn't like them.

2) Social Interactions. Force 5 Wards are actually common, at least in our games. It's not the first time I'd be pushed back out the door of a fancy restaurant for "safety" reasons.

3) Weakening. All it takes is 1 success more than you in Astral Combat to weaken a Quicken. Force 9 Ward (If you're going to do a Force 6, might as well just go for Force 9 as a Corp) against a 12 Karma Quickening has a 5+% chance of dropping that success total by one. Anything shy of 12 Karma and that chance just doubled and tripled. So, how often do you have to walk through Wards? Even a Force 5 Ward vs a 12 Karma Quicken has a 2.512158% chance of dropping your successes by one.

4) Respending. Once the spell weakens, how long do you wait to re-cast/Quicken? is +3 enough for you now? +2?

5a) Advancement. If you're so busy spending all your Karma on Quickening, especially for those having to consistently re-spend due to lost successes, you're just staying at your level, not getting better.

5b) Uselessness. For those too paranoid to go through Wards, what use are you now?

6) Background Count. How many spells do you think you can have at 12 Karma Quickened before you are a permanent Background Count type, and how do other Mages feel about that? That's my problem right now. My Lodge has a BG of 3, and anywhere I do more than pass-by has a BG of 1. I already have a +3 to Quicken more spells on me (since I only do that in my Lodge) unless I either learn Cleansing or a mate Cleanses my lodge for me.... (and that just sounds wrong....)

7) Mana Warps. So you've got your 6 attributes, Reaction and Reflexes all Quickened with 12 Karma each for a total of 96 Karma worth of Improvement.... a GM is well within his rights to decide that causing that big of a vortex to fuel those spells creates a Mana Warp with you in the center.

Notice, none of the more common "beacon" or "legal" theories needed here, there are a TON of reasons not to Quicken instead of just advancing like everyone else. I do it, in-character, because I actually want to see some of these things happen, but I don't fool myself into thinking they'll be pleasurable, I just wanna go out with a bit of a Bang and be in the history books.

Sphynx

Sphynx,

What you say it generally true, but that is not enough to balance out Sustaining/Quickened spells. In short, I will play Paul Harvey, and I will tell you the rest of the story:

Well, to counter your counters...

Where do you see that Astral Quests don't allow a GM to dispel your Quickens? Older Ed's perhaps? Meta activities effect your person, which is why you can die from a Meta quest. Show me some quotes here, not opinion.

If wards were so rare, why is it at a cheap 100 a Force (Hour)? Even without someone there who knows to turn you back, Wards over places of businesses are quite common according to that price. And it's common knowledge that public places have a right to ward their establishment under the same rulings that allow a corp to have their own military. There's no threat of legal infringements at all.

Tattoos: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/IgorFridman.shtml
Didja know that you could have about 5 Force 6 Spells Tattoo'd? Trolls, twice that. Suddenly Tattooing seems like the be-all, end-all of Quickening. Aside from Tattooing though, point stands.

Successes, me too. But, -most- players will be doing those TN 6 spells with about enough dice to get those 8 successes for the +4, nothing more. And those of us that go excessive, well, eventually we'll drop our needed successes by one, just takes longer. The point remains that it's still only temporary and any GM can easily start putting multiple Force 9 Wards in areas to insure we do eventually start losing Quickens.

Background Count, by-the-book: Sorcery or prolonged magical activities, including ritual sorcery and extremely high force spells. A GM is WELL within his rights to state an increse in BG count anywhere the character with THAT much magic Quickened stays.

ManaWarp: Admittedly GM discretion, but a more viable option than worrying about legalities.

GM screwing over the mage... That was kinda the idea of this thread, What can a GM do? These are options. I agree that they screw over the mage, but they're all book-legal ways to do just that.

Sphynx

Sphynx,

1. The normal rules don't apply to Astral Quests. The rules do not state that going on an astral quest dispells your quicked spells. It does say that for each individual test and metaplace, various things (including foci and quickened spells) may not be available, but that is a far cry from what you are claiming. In fact the rules about injuries seem to be an exception to this which is why it is specifically mentioned.

Besides, all this means is that the mage doesn't do astral quests if you want to play it that way. Quests are nice not essential. In short, you are reading WAAAY too much and trying to do too much that is not supported anywhere in the book. It is a good way to get players to quit your table for good.

As an example, I note on page 93 MITS under "Place of Battle" that all spells, foci, etc work normally including astral projection (even though you are already projecting just to be there). This should tell you that an astral quest does not disrupt quickened spells and that the normal rules don't apply.

2. As for Force 9 wards both you and Cain are being misleading. It is true that Wards cost 100 nuyen per hour.

Now for the rest of the story:

They cost 100 nuyen per force per hour. That means that a ward of force 6 will cost 600 nuyen per hour and a rectangular room will need 6 of these for a whopping 3600 nuyen per hour. No one short of a megacorp can afford this. High priced lawyers make less money per hour than this.

In addition, did you and Cain forget that you can not set up a ward that has a higher rating than your magic rating. Initiates are vanishingly rare and most mages will have at least a datajack. That means the highest commercially available ward will be force 5 (not nine) and for extra you can get force 6. That is the ceiling unless you really pay through the snout for initiate grade help. A quickened spell at effective force 14 (I would not do 12) will cut through commercial wards like butter.

In addition to that have you forgotten masking? Admittedly this only applies to very high karma mages, but after a mage gets to grade 6 or more initiate, he can probably walk through most wards with the greatest of ease WITHOUT tripping the ward (especially with the karma pool he will be sporting).

In short, wards are both expensive and generally ineffective.

3. The GM may be within his rights to declare an increase in background count, but that is really stretching things since force 6 (or even force 8 ) spells are not that high a force. Furthermore cleansing and filtering (a point you did not address) solve these problems handily.

4. Actually they are not really book-legal. Of these, background count is the closest, but even that is subject to a lot of discretion. Having said that, I think we agree that legality is definately not the answer...and that was the original supposition of this thread.

-Polaris

Man, I'm dejavuing my old Doc vs Sphynx debates now.

Ok... I never claimed that going on an Astral Quest would dispel a Quicken, I stated that the GM could use the going on an Astral Quest to do that. Once you enter the MetaPlanes, you ARE at the GM's mercies.

A Magic 6 person can Ward an area up to 300 cubic meters to Force 6 in 6 to 12 hours (though I COMPLETELY agree that Force 5 is a TON more common, and often indicate so in my posts, only major Corps should exceed Force 5). 300 Cubic meters is plenty enough for one building. Total cost to put your average club/restaurant/etc in a ward, 600 total. Chump change.

Sphynx

Sphynx,

Unless the rulebook says that it does dispell (or at least can), then it doesn't. I agree with you that during the Astral Quest you are completely at the GM's mercy (which is why Astral Quests are so risky), but that does not carry over into the standard world (except damage which is the clear exception).

A force 6 ward can only ward 300 cubic meters. Enough for a restaurant? I don't think so. 300 cubic meters is a cube with the cube-root of 300 per side which is something less than 7 meters per side (about 6.8 actually). To put it another way, if you assume that the ceiling of a one floor building is 3 meters, that means that the most you can ward in floor-space is 10 meters (or about 33 feet) per side.

That is nowhere NEAR enough space for any reasonably sized establishment. In addition to *that* wards have to be delinated by some kind of mundane and seeable boundaries (although even chalk lines will do). Thus you will need at least 4-5 wards to cover a building of any reasonable size...and now you are looking at costs of 3000 nuyen per hour.

Chump change? For a megacorp sure. For anyone else, that is far too pricey for the extra security that you bring.

Even worse than that, wards are dumb. I seriously doubt that *any* public place would have any ward. There are a lot of people....even mundane people...that have magically active items....and legal magically active items are force 2 or less. There is no way just from liability reasons why anyone would ward a public place. That just won't happen.

In short, wards for most people and businesses are too expensive, too ineffective, and too problematic legally to use, so they won't. Shadowrunners of course aren't bothered by any of these....and admittedly neither are A,AA, or AAA high security areas. This does, however, mean that for lower echelon runs (even against A+ corps) wards should seldom be an issue.

-Polaris

Freaking Americans and their huge ass areas.

First up, for an establishment costing (by-the-book) 100,000. 3,600 for security isn't all that. Though, where I live, no restaurant takes up 700 square meters (1,800/2.3), but I live in what I consider to be 3rd worldish country anyhows, so point made. I'd not consider it to be an outrageous cost though. And a Force 5 would only cost 3,000 for the same area. And cost is TOTAL, not per hour. The cost is always 100 per hour, it just takes Force*Wards number of hours to build them.

Sphynx

and why ward the ewntire building? just ward thesensitive areas so that when the mage is deep and think he is home free you slam him with a ward and then a APC load of guards or so its incredible how careless one can get ones one think one is a god

Your average business is going to want to have their establishment warded for approximately one month at a time. You would probably want two mages (or one mage doing a double ritual) to create a force 5 ward, and then maintain it every month, so you're looking at an outlay of 1000 karma (possibly an extra mage or two for a true "monitoring contract" type service where one is always on duty). Compare that to what it's costing the business to occupy that location (Sprawl Survival Guide is a good candidate). If it's less than 10%, I'd say they have one. If not, it's probably something weaker.

A lot of businesses might go with a cheaper option. A simple force 1 ward will let someone know what's going on and could be as cheap as 100 nuyen a month (probably 300 nuyen for three months, using three mages to do the work so you have 3 mages who can sound the alarm if it gets breached).

Just about anyone with a magic rating (excluding physical adepts) can make a ward, so it's the majority of the magical population. Even ghouls could do the work, if they were so inclined (I think).

[edit]And just because force 2 spells/foci are legal doesn't mean you are entitled to carry them into a restaurant. Look at the way handguns are treated in the US today. Even then, you could get around it by having a small, unwarded passthrough into the establishment proper where the item can be looked over as it comes past. You'd probably have to show your permits first, though (SIN verification).[/edit]

First of all, Polaris is wrong on the costs. According to p 174, BBB: "[Magical Security firms] generally charge around 100 nuyen an hout (per magician)." That's a flat cost, and not modified up by the force of the ward. Higher-force wards do take more time, but it's Force = Hours = cost/100; and not Force * 100 *hours = cost.

Second, while a whole establishment might easily exceed 250-300 cubic meters, individual rooms seldom do. At 200 nuyen per force-2 ward, most businesses can easily afford to have one set up in every room, and still afford a higher-powered one around the more secure areas.

Third, who said most mages will have a datajack? Cheching through the archetypes, and the Prime Runner sources I know, most mages are "off the showroom floor", so to speak. Even then, a rating-1 power focus or a geas can easily counteract that loss, so assuming most mages will have a Magic of 6 isn't far off.

So, let's say a place has about 400 square meters of floor space, more than enough to cover a reasonable-sized establishment. To set up a rating-2 ward over that area might require 4 wards, at 200 nuyen each, for a total cost of 800 nuyen. These wards will probably last for over a month each, so we'll assume the cost is per month. Still not out of reach for a Mom-and-Pop business. Bigger corps, with more security needs, will likely have more than that.

A simple sign on the front door indicating that magical items need to be deactivated will cover them from any liability of legal magical items being passed through. And even then, as TG pointed out, legal!= acceptable. I can legally carry and own a handgun, but I can't bring it into a courthouse; and restaurants and such may also ask patrons to check their weaponry at the door.

Guys,

UM, no. Legal does in fact generally equate to acceptable, especially when you factor in achored items like heal potions or other minor personal effects. The example with the pistol is way off. A pistol in shadowrun terms is not legal. It has a legality code with a "P" in it. That means that you do not have an inherent right to wear it with no questions asked.

Something with a code of "legal" is different, and especially if said item does not threaten anyway (like the aforementioned magical nick-nacks). Even with a posted notice, there is simply no way that an establishment will risk the multinuyen lawsuit over wards. It simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. Don't take my word....ask any small business owner or liability attorney.

As for your costs, why do you think the ward will last a month? A force 6 ward made with a mage with magic six will last a week....two if you are lucky. Anything much less than force 5 or 6 (standard commercial grade) are simply too weak to be effective. This jacks your cost way up. 800 nuyen a month? No small business can afford that...especially with high rental costs (in a city) too. No small business could afford the liability insurance for it either (see above).

-Polaris

Polaris,
Smoking is legal and not acceptable in public places.
Wearing a tee-shirt that says "Hackers rule!" can get you kicked out of public places, though that too is legal.

And stop saying "Guys" every post; you sound like a patronizing chauvinist.

Kanada,

I will use "guys" to be the general plural because over the centuries english has neutered the male pronoun and male gender in general. Get over it.

There is a difference between smoking which is socially unacceptable and a health hazard (and is probably restricted in SR although admittedly the rules do not say this), wearing a crass shirt, and magical items.

1. Social Acceptability. There are many magical items that are not only socially acceptable in polite society, but are actually de rigeur. Healing potions (with the anchor focus) are such an example. So are items like "Executive Protection" which many high rollers and corp/govt VIPs wear as a matter of course (see MITS page 71). In fact with Executive Protection, there is NO WAY the client will ever want that turned off.

Also there is a difference between tossing a person out and willfully destroying their property....their legal property. Tossing out a smoker or someone with a crass shirt is one thing....although very risky from a liability PoV. If you had some field that *destroyed* that cigarette or that crass T-Shirt, you are subject to a very hefty lawsuit and you will lose. There is no way even a megacorp will take that risk without good reason, and a small business absolutely will not.

2. Use Restrictions. The fact is most people that would be affected by wards are *mundanes* that happen to have spells on them either via quickening by a hired mage or by an item with the anchoring focus. Either way, said person can NOT turn the thing off. Turning away a VP of Federated Boeing at a five-star restaurant because he is wearing "Executive Protection" and can not turn it off is a REALLY BAD idea....

-Polaris

People drop with the personal attacks, it does nothing for the discussion just creates tension.

Im just going to point out there are TWO kinds of wards which might be causing some confusion. The temporary kind you can make without using karma, and the more permanent kind you can make with karma.

The relative costs, forces, and durations of those two are different enough to present problems. If youre going to present that one or the other is possible or practical, you might want to specify which youre talking about.

Also if youre going to say xyz is affordable or not, or is legal or not, its all opinion without some facts. I have no idea what renting space in a city costs, or what the average mom and pop business makes in 2063. I have no idea if anyone cares about legality when extraterritoriality abounds. Both these areas are rather undefined in SR, which leaves us to extrapolate from current times into the game, but which also leaves a lot of room for opinon along the way.

Im not going to make a claim either way, Ive found what I wanted to know from this thread and already know how I use wards so trying to decide here is pointless for me. But if you want to try and make a case to change our minds please use something other than saying yes or no, perhaps running some numbers from SSG or a link to some RL figures or something. Maybe someone in the Seattle area can provide current values there?

Guys,

Almost all visible cyberware is either illegal or requires a permit. Check it out if you doubt. This is different from having perfectly legal and acceptable items on hand.

Also, it was stated that the security mage could simply check in the items? Sure, but now you have to hire the mage during business hours and the hourly rate for a good mage is rivaled only by legal eagles, doctors, and mechanics. No way a small establishment could afford this for very long.

Also a printed notice is not always sufficient. Just ask McDonalds or many other businesses that have been SLAPPED. If no damage is done to a person's private property and allowances are made (such as said security mage), then yes, the business can get away with it. Otherwise even with a printed notice, they are still looking at a lawsuit.

Don't believe me, go ahead and ask an attorney. You can post "No Tresspassing, Enter at your own risk" all you like on your property line. If someone gets hurt even when trespassing and even when notice was posted, you can still be sued for negligence and you will lose. Even if the trespasser is robbing you, and you wound him, you can still face a losing lawsuit against willful negligence. [Moral of that story: simply kill intruders. It is easier.]

In short, except for very special areas for very important guests or in businesses with a lot of ready case (i.e. megacorps), you simply will not see a lot of wards in public places. WILL NOT HAPPEN At best, if such wards would be restricted to courthouses and other public places where public security outweights individual convenience....and private restaurant's don't in general qualify.

-Polaris

Civil lawsuits are strange. There's currently liability lawsuits against the airlines involved in 9/11 (edit) for having allowed the events of 9/11 to occur through negligence on their part. (?!) Enough said.

You haven't said exactly which numbers you're looking for, White Dwarf, so I'll give what I know. The various sourcebooks give good senses of space. The original Sprawl book gave floorplans of various upscale and midscale places including McHugh's - my GM currently has it but IIRC the floor space was in the range of 300-500 square metres (McHugh's sprawled more than most).

From the new SSG, the floor space of low, medium, high, and luxury apartments was given as around 50, 100, 200, and 700 square metres respectively. (From memory, so a figure or two might have slipped.

From what I remember of my notes about the mage security specialist, (I think it was non-karma'ed) wards stayed up for one week per success. Add in a bound watcher or low-Force elemental to patrol the more secure areas (very low Karma cost for year and a day patrol) and you have quite reasonable magical security from virtually all incidental things ... if not from any determined shadowrunner.

Sorry about the haphazardness of this reply - working off-the-cuff without books or notes at hand.

I think I'll write up a magical group which does this kind of work as a company later. It makes a lot of sense from a financial standpoint since the awakened individuals don't need to be mages or anything so otherwise employable.

As for being able to get your magical goodies into the establishment... That's what the coat/gun/magic check room is for. If you don't like it, eat somewhere else. I'd say no more than 0.1% of the population is carrying around magic they can't turn off (if you take mages as 1%, and consider that foci can be shut off most of the time with no penalty), so it's no big loss. You keep out the dual beings, but who wants that kind of riff-raff in your store anyway?

Kagenteshi,

In shadowrun *all* knives are illegal (and you can't even get a permit for them). That is true even for hunting/survival knives. In addition to that IIRC (at least in my local area) any blade over 6 inches long is illegal. Aside from that, when I was younger I did a lot of mountaineering. I never had a problem with my hunting knife (5 and a half inches) as long as it was belted, secured and sheathed. Pistols were not allowed, but IMX knives usually were.

-Polaris

As that was a real-life example, what the laws are in Shadowrun is irrelevant. My knife, while legal, is not allowed in at the least the places I've walked into after a long day hiking and have been told "I'm going to have to ask you to leave your knife outside."

~J

...and just because. =)

We use "guys" as gender neutral up here as well. It's a gender neutral term one uses with ones friends, to refer to people as "guys" just means you're talking to a group of friends.

The terms "The Boys" and "The Girls" refers to sex within members of "the guys"

Point IS, don't be one of those angry people who just assumes everything he or she reads is meant to offend them. Try giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Sunday.

What about butter knives?

Sunday Gamer, I had given the poster the doubt, at first. I asked the poster to stop using "Guys" because it makes the poster sound bad. I am not the poster's friend so the reference to me as such sounds patronizing and chauvinist.

Telling me to "Get over it" is simply instigation after I expressed my desire to not be automatically prejudiced by the poster's grammatical choices.

Sphynx: Where are you getting the idea that wards just weaken a quickened spell when they win the opposed test? All I could find, on pg. 83 of awakenings, was that it was an opposed test, and the quickened spell got destroyed if it lost or tied.

A few notes on wards:

The area that an awakened character can ward is based on the Magic Attribute, so a mundane ghoul would not be able to make a ward - you need an actual Magic rating of at least 1.

Also note that more than one mage can work on a ward, which can have a rating of up to their combined Magic ratings. So wards of higher than Force: 6 are not restricted to initiates. I agree that wards of higher than Force: 6 should still be comparatively rare, though.

I think wards would be used sparingly in public places, tending to be used only for things like restricted areas. They would be more common for things like secure apartment buildings and other less public areas.

MitS pg 83: