You are right that it would require a large number of players (and an abandonment of traditional MMORPG server structure, which is your real problem), but I don't see reaching that sort of population critical mass impossible. But, again, I see it as a very large hurdle, and one that has not been considered anywhere near fully.

Only true out to a certain proportion, and I don't think it'd stop at that proportion.

~J

Here's the thing.

It's doesn't matter.
They're all stupid gun-bunny freaks with cyber out the yin-yang.

Woopy. That's how it is now, except for the long term players who are actual devote fans of SR.

Well, that's what will happen in the MMORPG.

And the other options will simply help the game in areas that they specialize in.
But the game pretty much does have to center around Shodowruners....obviously.

And no...it's not a problem.
It really friggen isn't.

Oh...and watching a tunr-based fight from a 3rd person stand point (I mean, a passing player who is NOT in the fight, I don't mean the perspective), is really gay looking.

Just imagine walking by a fight in the allyway and you see 8 people frozen in time, and suddenly one of them moves and then freezes again.

Looks gay.

So you're taking as an assumption an upper-four-digit playerbase right off the bat?

And I'm so glad that turn-based fights look either happy or homosexual. I never knew a fight could have a sexual preference, or appear to.

~J

Well, I know I'm gay about the turn of quality in this discourse.

Pack of fags, mate?

You can do turn based games that have limits to how long turns can be..IE if you are in a turn..You have X amount of time to do anything,and if you don't do anything..you don't do anything.

You do realize that each of Everquest's servers only host 1,000 to 3,000 people at a time, right? Having 100,000+ people on a single server would be quite the feat. Furthermore, while the ideal final playerbase is 100,000+, you still need to start somewhere; if the game isn't fun in the beta while you're building that playerbase, well, it won't get built.

~J

You can look at COH and see that is real time,and yet has actions that could be called,simple,free or complex. SOme actions take more time than others.

And here is a news flash, watching other people fighting bad guys in COH isn't fun. It is as you put,rather gay. But from your posts, I do not think you will take a middle ground on this topic. I think you want your paradox, it gives you something to whine and be depressed about. But for the fun of it. No, you can't eat your cake and have it too.

Actually, I'll embrase middle ground. I don't know what you are talking about.

The idea I'm throwing out there is based on middle ground.
It's not the best idea, and I realize that openly.

It's a root idea to push the concept of actually meeting up on middle ground between turn-based and real time.

The balance between the two would be the ideal spot for an SRMMORPG in my opinion.

Something nobody has brought up yet.

There needs to be some way to prevent the massive inflation of prices that occurs in these games.
I don't want to pay 2,892,543 for an Ares Predator.

Why does that inflation occur?

And again, Stumps, while the game will optimally include thousands of people at any given time, it still has to be fun for the beta testers.

~J

Kagetenshi and FrostyNSO

I wrote the following for the SRO site awhile back-
MMO Virtual Economies

That should give you some idea as to the various types of MMO economies and how they function. Inflation prevention in an MMO is simple. You just expand and increase the intensity of the output source while keeping the input the same.

--GreyPawn
--Shadowrun-Online.com

It will, of course, be slightly tiered (more difficult jobs will pay more, while less experienced runners won't be able to take them on).

Any ideas how you're going to keep runs from becoming a numbers game?

~J

I misphrased, apparently. By "won't be able to take them on" I didn't mean "won't have them offered or be able to accept them", I mean "will fail at best, die at worst if they try".

~J

The massive costs occur in games like EVE online. You can probably get rid of it by charging players upkeep costs; SOTA (keep it scaled back- it doesn't make sense that all of the sudden a gun does less damage if you don't buy the latest propellant for your rounds- but if you've got a bladeboy with .2 Essence and straight delta, he's gonna need to keep his drivers up to date), lifestyle (you don't eat, you collapse from fatigue in the middle of a run), maintinence, etc.

And I'm still pushing the idea of PD, as long as the account karma bit is kept in; if you don't pay your DocWagon contract after the free trial period goes up, you should get what you pay for.

EDIT: One of the big concerns in modern MMOs is xp:time. So there's no real reason you only have to award karma on success; just make it that if you die badly enough, it takes DocWagon a long time to get to you and an even longer time to resseccitate. If you make the players watch this really long animation of themselves lying around and being rushed to a hospital and doctors coming and going for 10 minutes, they're going to be more careful about dying in the future. Even though they get partial karma, the amount of time it cost them for screwing up detracts from the amount of karma they COULD be earning.

SR characters are high level characters at character creation, by comparison to many other RPG's out there.
There is no real crunching for hours to get enough exp to get something in SR.

You have so many skills in the beginning that you will normally be good to go and satisfingly so, for a while.

There is no need to remove that for some reason and make player crunch hours after hours to get exp to get skills up, when they could be replacing that time doing what SR was designed around.

Playing ACTIVELY.

Here is an idea: Your monthly Subscription fee is your doc wagon contract... Play for free all you want, but if the char dies, that's it! Time to reroll!

I like your idea! Never happen, but I like your idea

That's my other beef with MMO's. I understand why you have to pay every month, but it just seems lame to buy a game and then pay every month to play it. There should be a single-player mode of some sort.

actually the problem with PC Johnsons just occured to me. Why? why is a johnson offering the job? Because he, or his employer wants it done. Most Johnsons, at least in my SR world, spend the vast majority of their time just sitting at work doing whatever it is they do. When the company runs into trouble, they go hire a runner. You'd have a hard time getting a PC to really accept that as their lot, at least I think you would. You would always have to have situations for the PCs to be earning money off of for them to be effective Johsons.

Unless you do all the Johnsons as freelancers, in which case you still need a bank of corporate, randomly created, runs for them to hire out.

I tend to agree that having the johnsons be automated or largely automated would be a better idea. While there could still be some PC Johnsons working for corps, it's hard to convince a player to play a character whose sole purpose is to sound mysterious and sit in a chair with goons nearby. Gets boring.

<push>Now, if the player of the Johnson was awarded account karma for doing so...</push>

PC Johnsons are not difficult.

They won't get bored because they won't be just sitting around.

Shadowrunners just sit around and wait for the job as far as their world really goes, but most groups chose to "fast forward" to the active parts.

PC Johnsons won't be bored because they will be freelancing as well as working for corps.
There are basically those two types of MJ's: Corp backed, and Freelanced.
Freelancers will be actively sticking their nose around and haggling for jobs the best that they can or gathering info about things the best that they can so that they can turn around and hire Runners.
Corp ones are pretty easy to understand. They get told to go get Runners to do something and they do.

Basically, MJ's are middlemen. They always have been.
In normal MMORPG's it goes, mission -> adventurer.
In SR it goes, mission -> Mr. Johnson -> Runner
So, an SRMMORPG should do the same.
And the payment goes: mission -> Mr. Johnson -> Runner
Where as delivery of completion basically goes: Runner -> Mr. Johnson -> mission

Mr. Johnson's would be VERY needed because when you want to know something, there is no other player style out there who's going to know more about where things are and what's hot right now than them because they will be seeing tons of missions everyday pass by.

The motivation to play such a role is much like the motivation to play Political classes in other MMORPG's, which players do. The thing is, the bulk of players won't play these kinds of roles, which is a great thing, because you want the bulk of your players to be Runners, not Mr. Johnsons.
But players will want to because Mr. Johnson's will make more money than most Runners because of the percentage earning, and they also create jobs for at least 2 other players who will be paid by the MJ as bodygaurds, then he might want a PC driver. Who knows.

The thing is, they are rather a ritzy character once they get going, and might be in the social upper circle in organizations set-up by players.

And of course the MJ would get Karma from the mission being completed.
It's a job well done if he chooses the right people and get the job done.
Besides, he can even make an extra buck if he doesn't tell them what the total pay for the mission is and just tells them how much he's paying them.

Now, a smart group will have a MJ in it as part of their regular crew.

EDIT: GreyPawn, tell me what you think of this method of keeping everything non-chaotic but allowing characters to mo

I hate to beat a dead horse or ring a loud bell over and over, but paul...that idea that you want and desire, is exactly what I'm theoretically suggesting is possible with combo assigned keys.

I don't know if it would work exactly, but I think it would be faster because you can have entire phases summed up into one button, which allows you to be able to move much quicker.

As to the aiming bit, I really think that first person is a bad idea.
It may seem cool, but it's WAY to slow for any good to come of it for cyber junkies, and aiming with crazy speed mouse movements is not ideal because you're aim will suck even though your character stats say that you don't.

The way to go is to simply have two modes, in my opinion.
The way I was talking about before is just an optional mode available for the uber fast guys to take advantage of (anyone can use it, but it's made with them in mind...though it could be useful to riggers, and deckers too. Auto systems are handy for those guys). Anyways...
The main system would be one where, if you hold a firearm capable of different firing modes, you will press the appropriate button(s) to switch firing modes and your targeting retical aims automatically in porportion to your stats mixed with chance (like the dice) at your opponent and you attack.
The controls will basically be like those in shooters, but in a 3rd person percpective slightly from behind, yet rotatable, style of view, common to MMORPG's.
The mages will be the only characters that will probably want macros, to fling spells out quickly, by default.

Riggers, and Deckers won't really need them, but they can benefit from them.
Cybers won't always need them right off the bat, but they will most likely end up needing them.

Regular Combat can be done by simply cliking on the oponent you wish to attack and then clicking the attack you wish to use, or using the assinged key that you wish to use that has an attack, spell, program, combo, or action assigned to it.

For the first phase of action in real time everyone just simply clicks. After that, the players can choose to click and press buttons for their actions faster than their characters can preform them and have their actions stack up onto eachother.
They could also cancel all actions comming up and redo it, in case things didn't go as planned.

SWG did something like this and it worked out pretty well in that area.

I first saw this style of combat in SpellForce and I haven't seen much better systems, in my opnion, since.
Combat went smooth, eventhough you were controlling both a roleplaying character fully as well as small armies similar to those found in warcraft.

This concept of clicking the enemy and then clicking the attack, or pressing the attack is far faster than the typicaly reversed order.
Especially when the system automatically lists what possible actions you have, or what more probable actions you have for the opponent that you have clicked on.

Granted, that list, in SR, could take too long in some cases, while working well in others.
It would work well for the Mages, while the cyber guys still might prefer to combo quick key it up to take more advantage of their speed.
Mixing the two would create powerful options for Deckers and Riggers as the clicking options could be a whole new set of actions that are different from their quick key actions and therefore offering them two very fast menus of options to choose from.

actually Stumps I was agreeing with you. My comment was towards SpasticTeapot who said "puts a cap on the advantages of super-fast characters; you can't shoot faster than you can aim the shots. " I wasn't referncing your stuff at all. So far what you've said makes sense, and I'm willing to say, "it isn't perfect, but it's better than what I've got to offer so I'm willing to support it."

We need to see varying degrees of cover as well.

By this I mean the fact that a trashcan is not going to stop assault rifle bullets outright. This is important, and would place more emphasis on tactics in the gunfights.

or a masacer (sp) if the AI didn't use it

I have an idea for how to deal with players that get out of hand.

Remember that the Corporate Court has a few special squads to keep corporations under control. Well, let's just say I stated up a squad that serves that function and sometimes also goes after individual threats that pop up. We're talking the best equipment and armor money can buy, and even a few items developped just for them that no one else has. They even have a few pieces of equipment the runners can never afford to buy.

So if a group gets too roudy and causes too many problems, sick that group on them and program it so that group causes PD when they kill someone, even if you don't have PD otherwise. You can use that group to deal with hackers and other problems.

If you wish, I can post the stats and equipment of these people.

I'm not interested in a SR MMORPG. It will leave out the most important player in the game, the GM. Without him, you might was well be playing Dawn of Atlantis.

Which is a bad rule. Of course, there's nothing better…

Incidentally, where are you going to get that many exceptionally-talented Shadowrun players with experience in the MMO business?

~J

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any way that Microsoft is going to let you make money off this. I can see them possibly turning a blind eye if it were free, but once any kind of financial transaction is involved, I envision legal action will ensue.

His idea (as I see it) is that he'll put together a solid proposal and submit it to Microsoft in hopes that they'll pick it up.

Which will probably kill getting any decent number of Shadowrun players in on dev/content development, but so it goes.

~J

I think Greypawn has more of an image of what he wants this thing to look like than he admits. He asks for input and opinion from the GM's and Players of SR and then discounts it, and proceeds to explain 'how it will be' in this game.

I for one hope Microsoft doesn't swing at this particular pitch.