Full Version: Shadowrun Online - The MMO
Somehow, I'm not seeing instanced Dante's and Instanced Renraku ARC being all that hot. I think it might hurt immersion.
It could work, with a combination of instanced standard runs, and scripted big stuff.
Combining instance zoning for a more "private run" feel with open-to-all areas is the best way to go. Over-instancing can hurt immersion, but so can overpopulation. The trick is finding the balance.
| QUOTE |
| At least you seem prepared to tackle tough criticism head-on. The Dawn boys just kinda blustered. |
Criticism is welcome. It helps to refine the design. The constructive type is craved, but all is welcome.
As for Photoshop costs, The GIMP, SodiPodi and Inkscape are three decent open-source style Photoshop alternatives that would do the job just as well. The Player Developer Program isn't for everyone, but it is an option available and will be one of the biggest sources of new non-mission content in the game world.
| QUOTE |
| What you lack, however, is the Liscence, and without that, you're just barkin' up a tree. So unless you can find the cash to wrest the electronic Shadowrun liscence from Microsoft and find a publisher, it's just a waste of effort - and what is apparently talent. |
It is doubtful that Microsoft would sell or even lease the license. While SRO's proposal met with rave reviews at E3, Microsoft is patient and calculating. They will wait for reviews and hard statistics regarding the Xbox release of the Shadowrun FPS before giving our MMO project a thumbs-up or down. If we had been 3 months quicker, it very likely could have been the other way around. Luckily, time gives us time to refine and polish.
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| As currently planned, I couldn't take my character into the Barrens and who knows where else. Whole sections of the game's content is off limits. |
Not off-limits. Just more dangerous. There will be areas that are much more dangerous than other places, just like in the real game.
| QUOTE |
| In addition, the whole 'owning a corp' concept isn't IMO part of the shadowrun setting. The game isn't call 'CORP Master', it's called shadowrun. And this is looking like a different game even if its one set in the same setting. |
It is the nature of players in an online environment to group in order to overcome challenges they might otherwise be unable to tackle. Group play promotes community, and community bolsters a game from the bottom up. This in mind, what does one call a group of runners? What happens if that group doubles in size out of necessity or desire to grow? This type of situation is capped in the pen&paper version of Shadowrun simply because a GM or even several GMs cannot keep track of all the players participating in the game world. This obstacle is removed in an online persistent state world, however. Theoretically, dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of runners could align themselves with each other towards a common goal, and so an in-game mechanism must be in place to facilitate this. Hence- Player Corporations.
Don't let the name fool you though. There are several different types of Player Corps. Player Corps, Initiatory Groups and Organized Gangs. And we are definitely open to suggestions along those lines. If your Shadowrun character lead a "group" of runners, what kind of group would it be?
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| Not off-limits. Just more dangerous. There will be areas that are much more dangerous than other places, just like in the real game. |
What he was referring to was the fact that because he has an extreme distaste for open PvP, and especially given the fact that open PvP is inevitably dominated by the 1337 who are geared up for newbieslaying, the Z-zone is effectively off-limits because he will never go there. Because non-consentual PvP only ruins his game, not adds to it. I feel the same way.
By the same token, lack of PvP ruins the game. IMO there is no happy medium, though I'll be pleasantly impressed if otherwise is proved.
~J
~J
Non-consentual PvP is not something I consider a necessity for the game, primarily because the pen&paper did not facilitate it. In fact, it tends to exacerbate problems and raise false positives on balancing issues.
For now, for sake of discussion, assume all PvP in SRO is in some way consentual.
For now, for sake of discussion, assume all PvP in SRO is in some way consentual.
Would I be stupid to just suggest a MUSH for interested players?
No, no pretty graphics. However, they can be quite immersive, and they are free.
No, no pretty graphics. However, they can be quite immersive, and they are free.
but is it really "non consensual" pvp if a zone is dictated pvp, and yyou willingly enter that zone?
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| but is it really "non consensual" pvp if a zone is dictated pvp, and yyou willingly enter that zone? |
Yes.
The simple truth of the matter is that if you have zones with individual content and that zone is open PvP, the only option open to players such as myself is not to go there.
Can you imagine not being able to go into the barrens in a Shadowrun game? The very idea is unbelieveable. Would you like to have entire zones made off limit to you because it radically changes play styles to something you hate? It's not worth the money or time if you're basically a second class player of the game no matter how good of a PvE player you are.
By definition, such things make part of the game non-consensual PvP. SWG is a good example where the use of rebel/empire content opens you to PvP, I dropped that game within a month.
Well, I am glad the the rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated. Thanks for the updates Greypawn.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| By the same token, lack of PvP ruins the game. IMO there is no happy medium, though I'll be pleasantly impressed if otherwise is proved. ~J |
The happy medium is PvP servers and Non-PvE servers.
That way I can play the game I want to play, and not be force to play the game you want to play.
| QUOTE (GreyPawn) |
| Combining instance zoning for a more "private run" feel with open-to-all areas is the best way to go. Over-instancing can hurt immersion, but so can overpopulation. The trick is finding the balance. |
Guild War uses this model.
In a Shadowrun version of this, the key 'runner' bars would likely be the open-to-all zones. All adventures are instance zones.
One could have free-for all zones *IF* the only content there was for PvP.
After trying a number of MMO, this is the only model I'd play in the future.
I agree. Saying "PvP is consentual only, but we have open PvP zones, and they're the only places to get X" is as good as saying "If you don't like PvP, you're screwed."
Fox's use of the SWG Empire/Rebel system, for example.
And the Archives in the Matrix Online, for another example. They were, hands down, the best place to get money, but you risked being ganked by some jerk if you set foot in.
That's not right.
Now, if you're going to be stripping whole areas for the game of Urban Brawl, and the only thing in the area is PvP and players, and there is no gameplay advantage to being a PvPer or not - then it would be acceptable. It would keep the competition-junkies like the person who's desire for PvP over roleplay ruined my MxO experiance happy, and it would keep those of us who despise non-consentual PvP happy that they're out of our hair and busy beating each other up, while those of us who are actually trying to run the Shadows can do so.
However, I have some more concerns.
1: How are you going to handle HP and death. For that matter, how are you going to handle anything?
Is it going to be (as close as possible) SR3? SR4? Or will it be something that in no way resembles the SRd6 rules that we all know, and incorporates such an archaic function as hit points?
I ask because, in the SR3 ruleset, the differences between very advanced characters and starting PC characters, while vast, are less vast than the difference between, say, a starting EQ character, and a high level jerk who's been playing since day 1.
The reason this is is beause in SR3, bullets are deadly. A newbie stands a stastical chance - mind you, not the best chance, but it is a good chance - of putting down even an oldbie with one good shot from his Ares Predator.
And Ares Predators aren't exactly the uber-leet ultra-rare drop, either. In fact, they're the most abundant gun in the sprawl, if the street index has anything to say about it.
This, for example, makes a world of difference. SR3 characters who are starting out, are professionals. They are generally competent at doing what they do, and unlike other game systems, there are no huge jumps up in overall power level, simply going up in bits.
As opposed to starting characters in a game like, say, Final Fantasy XI, where players, ostensibly trained and competent warriors, start out standing a very good chance of having your ass handed to you by small woodland animals.
Part of the reason is because there is no such thing as HP in Shadowrun. The best way to not die is to not get shot at all. The second-best way to not die is to be a troll with beyond-sane Body, Dermal III and full Milspec armor.
So, how is this going to be handled? Will it be a system that I can say "Wooo! Resist 9DDD, biiiitch!"
Fox's use of the SWG Empire/Rebel system, for example.
And the Archives in the Matrix Online, for another example. They were, hands down, the best place to get money, but you risked being ganked by some jerk if you set foot in.
That's not right.
Now, if you're going to be stripping whole areas for the game of Urban Brawl, and the only thing in the area is PvP and players, and there is no gameplay advantage to being a PvPer or not - then it would be acceptable. It would keep the competition-junkies like the person who's desire for PvP over roleplay ruined my MxO experiance happy, and it would keep those of us who despise non-consentual PvP happy that they're out of our hair and busy beating each other up, while those of us who are actually trying to run the Shadows can do so.
However, I have some more concerns.
1: How are you going to handle HP and death. For that matter, how are you going to handle anything?
Is it going to be (as close as possible) SR3? SR4? Or will it be something that in no way resembles the SRd6 rules that we all know, and incorporates such an archaic function as hit points?
I ask because, in the SR3 ruleset, the differences between very advanced characters and starting PC characters, while vast, are less vast than the difference between, say, a starting EQ character, and a high level jerk who's been playing since day 1.
The reason this is is beause in SR3, bullets are deadly. A newbie stands a stastical chance - mind you, not the best chance, but it is a good chance - of putting down even an oldbie with one good shot from his Ares Predator.
And Ares Predators aren't exactly the uber-leet ultra-rare drop, either. In fact, they're the most abundant gun in the sprawl, if the street index has anything to say about it.
This, for example, makes a world of difference. SR3 characters who are starting out, are professionals. They are generally competent at doing what they do, and unlike other game systems, there are no huge jumps up in overall power level, simply going up in bits.
As opposed to starting characters in a game like, say, Final Fantasy XI, where players, ostensibly trained and competent warriors, start out standing a very good chance of having your ass handed to you by small woodland animals.
Part of the reason is because there is no such thing as HP in Shadowrun. The best way to not die is to not get shot at all. The second-best way to not die is to be a troll with beyond-sane Body, Dermal III and full Milspec armor.
So, how is this going to be handled? Will it be a system that I can say "Wooo! Resist 9DDD, biiiitch!"
for the record, my comment was for that, pvp only zones, where the only thing there to really see is pretty pictures. i agree that content in the pvp zones is stupid, like in the game Dark Ages of Camelot, where some of the higher level quests took you into the pvp zones, yes, you were AROUND the level, but when you have a grou of all 50's, it's going to take 2, 3 or even 4 groups if you've got more than one 44-49 level person doing quests out there.
| QUOTE (GreyPawn) |
| Non-consentual PvP is not something I consider a necessity for the game, primarily because the pen&paper did not facilitate it. |
That's… not remotely true, in my opinion. I think you're still thinking of all the MMORPG PCs as RPG PCs, which they aren't to 99+% of the in-game population.
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| The happy medium is PvP servers and Non-PvE servers. That way I can play the game I want to play, and not be force to play the game you want to play. |
The problem I'm bringing up is one of human nature. I don't want to play a game filled with people waiting by some important location with a rubber stamp in hand to stamp their kills on the side of their monitor/computer. Neither do I want to play a game where the very real aspect of counter-Shadowrunning, betrayals, and other reasons a Shadowrunner may end up dead at the hands of another Shadowrunner doesn't exist.
Granted I'm not in your target market in the first place. Well, I suppose I am arguably, but I'm in the part that I can state with reasonable certainty that you will miss—the people who are looking for the role-playing experience of a pen-and-paper game as opposed to the "role-playing" of a computer "role-playing" game.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| By the same token, lack of PvP ruins the game. IMO there is no happy medium, though I'll be pleasantly impressed if otherwise is proved. ~J |
That is an opinion.
One that a whole lot of people don't share.
I for one would not mind PvP, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if it wasn't there.
-karma
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Granted I'm not in your target market in the first place. Well, I suppose I am arguably, but I'm in the part that I can state with reasonable certainty that you will miss—the people who are looking for the role-playing experience of a pen-and-paper game as opposed to the "role-playing" of a computer "role-playing" game. |
I've seen the 'role-playing' of the typical PvP player. It is nothing I wish to see again.
Besides, the quote you responded to stated specifical that the best solution is PvP servers and non-PvP servers. Any yet you respond with a statement that indictes that won't work for you. Why?
On the PvP servers there will be the "typical PvP player" you mention. On the non-PvP servers there will be no PvP.
That's pretty much it right there.
~J
That's pretty much it right there.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| On the PvP servers there will be the "typical PvP player" you mention. On the non-PvP servers there will be no PvP. That's pretty much it right there. ~J |
That's what I thought.
One of the most common 'features' of the typical PvP player is the insistance that they be able to force non-PvP players into becoming their targets.
It's a reprehensible attitude.
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| Well, I am glad the the rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated. Thanks for the updates Greypawn. |
Quite welcome. And thanks for the lively discussion! It takes alot more than a first person shooter to halt the grinding gears of SRO.
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| 1: How are you going to handle HP and death. For that matter, how are you going to handle anything? |
Tricky question. HP in Shadowrun could actually be broken down into digits and hit points representative of the status bar. You could mathematically represent the same damage done from a 9M gun by giving L,M,S,D values, and this is probably the way we'll go with regards to how to handle the backend of the health meter. While it will still be represented as a 4-stage meter, the behind-the-scenes calculations will be much more precise, allowing for fractions of L.
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| The reason this is is beause in SR3, bullets are deadly. A newbie stands a stastical chance - mind you, not the best chance, but it is a good chance - of putting down even an oldbie with one good shot from his Ares Predator. |
The hybrid of skills and karma gain will present a unique version of this ages old dilemma, how to reward time spent but not hinder a new player from the get-go. A karma level 1 character in SRO will have a decent statistical possibility of killing a karma level 10 character. The chance of a karma level 10 character however, will not be exponentially better, but rather hierarchically.
| QUOTE (Fox1) |
| One of the most common 'features' of the typical PvP player is the insistance that they be able to force non-PvP players into becoming their targets. It's a reprehensible attitude. |
But an extension of a reasonable one—if you don't need to watch your back, in my opinion, it fails at being Shadowrun.
It's a social problem for which there is no reasonable technical solution.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| But an extension of a reasonable one—if you don't need to watch your back, in my opinion, it fails at being Shadowrun. |
Illogical in the extreme.
I don't have to watch my back against the other players at my gaming table. I only have to watch out for NPCs. The same can easily apply to a MMO.
I sense nothing more in your comments than gamer who wants to whack my character online. Frankly I don't want to play with such, and I won't buy into any game no matter how attractive the setting that forces me to.
| QUOTE (Fox1) |
| I don't have to watch my back against the other players at my gaming table. |
We start off with a difference in play styles.
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| I only have to watch out for NPCs. The same can easily apply to a MMO. |
And move to a fundamental misunderstanding. In an MMORPG, the PCs are the NPCs of the tabletop world.
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| I sense nothing more in your comments than gamer who wants to whack my character online. |
Note to self: do not hire Fox1 in any capacity that requires evaluating people.
~J
| QUOTE (Fox1) |
| One of the most common 'features' of the typical PvP player is the insistance that they be able to force non-PvP players into becoming their targets. |
Sure! They can go right ahead and force an unwilling participant into pvp if they can, But remeber, if you don't want to risk as much going into the barrens on a run, hire a rigger to get you and your mates in without the hassle of wading through the eager 'participants' of PvP.
PvP Riggers or folk with a Great Dragon ATGM.
~J
~J
And when someone decides to engage the rigger, and all of his riders, in non-consentual PvP by way of RPG and laser and tank fire?
Remember, if it is there, the greifers will get ahold of it. I'd rather not have to plan every excercusion by means of consulting present-day military leaders in Iraq who plan armed convoys through Baghdad.
Remember, if it is there, the greifers will get ahold of it. I'd rather not have to plan every excercusion by means of consulting present-day military leaders in Iraq who plan armed convoys through Baghdad.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| PvP Riggers or folk with a Great Dragon ATGM. ~J |
Really, Kage. This is nothing like the Barrens in Shadowrun. The worst you'll run into there, unless you REALLY torq off the wrong people, are some gangers who want to hit you up for your money and shoes. The Shadowrunners in the barrens don't hassle other Shadowrunners randomly, they CERTAINLY don't turn it into freaking Falluja.
Spoken like someone who hasn't read the gangs section of SRComp recently, or any of the flavourtext about the barrens. Red Hot Nukes?
~J
~J
Gangs aren't an armed insurgency, Kage. How would they get ahold of that kind of stuff, and how would they pay for it?
Ask the writers, not me. I don't think you understand how much they've taken over in canon, though.
~J
~J
In any event, you're not even talking about gangs, you're talking about roaming greif PKers.
Utter troll-shit.
Utter troll-shit.
I may have missed something—what exactly is your argument here? The only one I saw was that gangs wouldn't have that kind of gear. Two issues there: one, as you point out, I was not talking about gangs. Second, as I've already addressed, they do have that kind of gear. The more important issue is that unless Riggers are made into invulnerable taxi drivers, they're a non-answer to the proposed problem.
~J
~J
How, exactly, do gangers get Grand Dragon AGTMs? Those are expensive, and where are the scum-gangers getting that kind of funding? Where do they get the Launch Weapons skill to use it? And they certainly don't crawl around blowing up any vehicle at random.
My point is that this is insane. Your runners do not say "Okay, we tool up with the heavy gear and go out to the Barrens looking for some weaker runners to make dead." You don't do that kind of crap, unless you want the whole fucking Shadow community to turn you into a fine red paste.
My point is that this is insane. Your runners do not say "Okay, we tool up with the heavy gear and go out to the Barrens looking for some weaker runners to make dead." You don't do that kind of crap, unless you want the whole fucking Shadow community to turn you into a fine red paste.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| How, exactly, do gangers get Grand Dragon AGTMs? Those are expensive |
This is incorrect.
| QUOTE |
| and where are the scum-gangers getting that kind of funding? |
Like I said, ask the writers. Though I've got some guesses, as these gangs are definitely depicted as being on a different power level than what you're thinking. IIRC the Red Hot Nukes are comprised entirely of adepts, for instance.
| QUOTE |
| My point is that this is insane. Your runners do not say "Okay, we tool up with the heavy gear and go out to the Barrens looking for some weaker runners to make dead." You don't do that kind of crap, unless you want the whole fucking Shadow community to turn you into a fine red paste. |
Welcome to the world of the MMORPG. Please check your sanity at the door.
~J
| QUOTE |
| Can you imagine not being able to go into the barrens in a Shadowrun game? The very idea is unbelieveable. |
If the game world is supposed to simulate real life, it seems very beliveable to me. Even now in tame 2005 Washington DC there are neighborhoods I wouldn't visit after dark.
The whole idea in SR is that characters have a much greater risk of dying than in other games. Even if the Barrens were instanced, and had no other PCs, you might still get killed by a troop of Halloweeners that come around the corner. Would the fact that it wasn't another player make that death any less painful?
I guess the whole thing would revolve around what does death actually mean? In the tabletop version, I always knew that if I took a bullet in the chest there was a good chance that Doc-Wagon would come save my sorry butt - I'd guess that the online version would have the same option. In that case, I'd guess the primary incentive not to die is financial. Paying for med-evac every 10 minutes would be expensive.
...I'm trying to think about ways that you could dis-incent ganking without sacrificing realism.
- If you were able to realistically mimic players with NPCs, then PC survivability might be better. In other words, if I'm Joe-the-Ganker, hiding on a roof in the Barrens with my sniper rifle, I'm not going to waste bullets (and draw attention to myself) shooting at pedestrians unless I think I'm aiming at a real PC. It wouldn't give Joe any satisfaction just killing randomly generated NPCs. If you could realistically mimic a variety of PC actions (some sneaking around corners, some just walking or running or moving erratically...) maybe ganking wouldn't be as much of a focus.
- Barrens wouldn't have a police response, but different neighborhoods might have gang response, etc. If nothing else, the gang would be interested in getting that expensive rifle...
any thoughts?
Just start assaying PCs bad rep for murdering other PCs. Especially without provocation.
Sure, a group of Halloweeners are a possible threat, but one even newbie Shadowrunners are prepared to deal with.
250+ Karma Shadowrunners with laser weapons and GMC Banshees joyriding around lasering them isen't. It's unrealistic, even by Shadowrun's standards.
So if people make a habit of doing that kind of crap, one day when they log off, when they go to log back on, they're informed that their ganker was assassinated in his sleep by the contacts of one or more of his victims, don't be a dickwad next time.
Sure, a group of Halloweeners are a possible threat, but one even newbie Shadowrunners are prepared to deal with.
250+ Karma Shadowrunners with laser weapons and GMC Banshees joyriding around lasering them isen't. It's unrealistic, even by Shadowrun's standards.
So if people make a habit of doing that kind of crap, one day when they log off, when they go to log back on, they're informed that their ganker was assassinated in his sleep by the contacts of one or more of his victims, don't be a dickwad next time.
| QUOTE |
| 250+ Karma Shadowrunners with laser weapons and GMC Banshees joyriding around lasering them[...] |
Do you think gankers would waste time doing that even if they didn't know if there was a PC in the crowd? And if they wouldn't be able to tell after the fact?
example: Joe the Ganker shoots a pedestrian. The target goes down, clutching his chest, and crawls toward a doorway. A second shot finishes the target off, and the body lays there for 5 minutes (at this point police, or ghouls, or whatever show up and take away corpse). Joe has no idea if he shot a real PC or [more likely] one of the hundreds of NPCs randomly spawning in the area. Either way, Joe's 'heat' [or whatever you want to call it] has increased, making life harder for himself down the road.
Wouldn't Joe get bored with this pretty quick?
[edit]The really hard part would be building a realistic set of responses that could accurately mimic real-life behavior. Don't know how do-able it is, but worth discussing.
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
Do you think gankers would waste time doing that even if they didn't know if there was a PC in the crowd? And if they wouldn't be able to tell after the fact? example: Joe the Ganker shoots a pedestrian. The target goes down, clutching his chest, and crawls toward a doorway. A second shot finishes the target off, and the body lays there for 5 minutes (at this point police, or ghouls, or whatever show up and take away corpse). Joe has no idea if he shot a real PC or [more likely] one of the hundreds of NPCs randomly spawning in the area. Either way, Joe's 'heat' [or whatever you want to call it] has increased, making life harder for himself down the road. Wouldn't Joe get bored with this pretty quick? |
you would think, but it seems like most of the gankers online have not only the attention span of roughly 16 seconds, but a long term memory of about half that, so it's always fun!
The other piece of this is that he's building heat regardless of whether his victims are PCs or NPCs. If only one in every twenty of his victims are PCs, his heat will go through the roof in no time, and the cops/other runners/aggrieved contacts will have picked up or assinated the guy before he's had much chance to do much real harm.
I don't think Joe-the-Ganker would want to waste countless hours building up an uber-character just to get arrested because he randomly shot a 40 NPCs (that would regenerate later anyway). Especially if he could go to the Urban Brawl zone and get it out of his system without penalty.
I don't think Joe-the-Ganker would want to waste countless hours building up an uber-character just to get arrested because he randomly shot a 40 NPCs (that would regenerate later anyway). Especially if he could go to the Urban Brawl zone and get it out of his system without penalty.
| QUOTE (Apathy @ Sep 6 2005, 05:18 PM) |
| The other piece of this is that he's building heat regardless of whether his victims are PCs or NPCs. If only one in every twenty of his victims are PCs, his heat will go through the roof in no time, and the cops/other runners/aggrieved contacts will have picked up or assinated the guy before he's had much chance to do much real harm. I don't think Joe-the-Ganker would want to waste countless hours building up an uber-character just to get arrested because he randomly shot a 40 NPCs (that would regenerate later anyway). Especially if he could go to the Urban Brawl zone and get it out of his system without penalty. |
1. What does "arrested" mean? If PvP is a part of the game's design, then - if the current crop of MMORPGs is anything to go by - there will be few to none negative consequences for pkilling.
Hell, the reality of the matter is that in most games, people have to work hard to get warned (never mind suspended) for blatant and gratuitous abuse of the rules of conduct, and virtually never get banned - unless they do something the company running the game views as detrimental to their image and/or sales.
2. Hardcore MMORPG gankers are not in the business for the thrill of the hunt, a high reputation, great PvP reward items, or any similar in-game reason - they're doing it primarily to fuck over other people playing the game, and make sure that they ruin their fun. In other words, they're out to hurt someone. They're pathological little fucks that can't be relied on to act rationally - not even if a system existed that punished their actions, and one doesn't.
| QUOTE |
| 1. What does "arrested" mean? If PvP is a part of the game's design, then - if the current crop of MMORPGs is anything to go by - there will be few to none negative consequences for pkilling. Hell, the reality of the matter is that in most games, people have to work hard to get warned (never mind suspended) for blatant and gratuitous abuse of the rules of conduct, and virtually never get banned - unless they do something the company running the game views as detrimental to their image and/or sales. |
Lone Star will be a force to be reckoned with, and will be the basic measure of justice in the game world. Consequences for random NPC killing will be incarceration, execution, fine or worse. In some cases, Heat rating can be reduced by performing runs for the Star and acting as Bounty Hunter. Players will be held accountable for obeying the laws in the areas in which they travel.
Violations of the Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service will be dealt with immediately and with great efficiency. Initial violation will net warning. Second will cause suspension. Second violation will trigger banning.
| QUOTE |
| 2. Hardcore MMORPG gankers are not in the business for the thrill of the hunt, a high reputation, great PvP reward items, or any similar in-game reason - they're doing it primarily to fuck over other people playing the game, and make sure that they ruin their fun. In other words, they're out to hurt someone. They're pathological little fucks that can't be relied on to act rationally - not even if a system existed that punished their actions, and one doesn't. |
I disagree. Hardcore MMO Players are just that. Hardcore. The Griefer is a different animal entirely, and thrives on the misery they can incite through their own anonymity. The best method, historically, of limiting the number of griefers is to make player decisions have lasting effects in the game world and provide an easy means for the community to identify such undesirable elements. If Greg the Griefer figures out a way of scamming someone out of sniper rifles using a game mechanic bug, that victim can spread the information about the scammer, and share a No-Service or Kill-on-Sight warrant with his player corp comrades, effectively cutting that griefer off from a larger portion of the game world over time.
More on the Rigger PvP question later.
-GreyPawn
| QUOTE (GreyPawn @ Sep 6 2005, 07:33 PM) |
| Violations of the Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service will be dealt with immediately and with great efficiency. Initial violation will net warning. Second will cause suspension. Second violation will trigger banning. |
Have you played many MMORPGs? This sort of idealism is nice, but it has no grounding in reality.
| QUOTE |
| I disagree. Hardcore MMO Players are just that. Hardcore. The Griefer is a different animal entirely, and thrives on the misery they can incite through their own anonymity. The best method, historically, of limiting the number of griefers is to make player decisions have lasting effects in the game world and provide an easy means for the community to identify such undesirable elements. If Greg the Griefer figures out a way of scamming someone out of sniper rifles using a game mechanic bug, that victim can spread the information about the scammer, and share a No-Service or Kill-on-Sight warrant with his player corp comrades, effectively cutting that griefer off from a larger portion of the game world over time. |
I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with, since I drew no parallels between "hardcore players" and griefers.
As for dealing with them... Please name one game which has managed to significantly discourage griefing in a PvP environment, and explain why you think any other game following a similar business model will be different.
There's no argument that griefers are highly detrimental to the enjoyment of many others, and there's one likely reason they're virtually never dealt with - if you compare the money it costs to monitor and get rid of ban-worthy assholes, and the money lost by actually permanently banning them with the money lost when people actually leave over ganking (instead of just grumbling, or changing servers), it's simply not worth it to the people running the games to police their players effectively. Money talks. They establish PvE servers to provide areas where the worst kind of griefing will not be an issue, and ignore everything else.
The person in the quote was referencing griefers as "hardcore" players. That is what I disagreed with. The hardcore playerbase are loyal fans and avid gamers who prefer to spend more time with the game than the casual gamer. This does not necessitate becoming a griefer.
| QUOTE |
| Please name one game which has managed to significantly discourage griefing in a PvP environment, and explain why you think any other game following a similar business model will be different. |
World of Warcraft to some extent. And they've done it with a surprising and often overlooked game mechanic- the ability to communicate across the PvP divide. Griefing usually accompanies harsh language and the removal of this platform prevents the victim in the situations where griefing is occuring from being further harmed as much, at least psychologically.
As I did mention, much much earlier in the thread, we do plan PvP and PvE servers. While removing language is not an option, the added threat of Heat, lasting consequences in the form of No-Service and KOS lists should help to diminish some of the motive for griefing.
| QUOTE |
| I guess the whole thing would revolve around what does death actually mean? In the tabletop version, I always knew that if I took a bullet in the chest there was a good chance that Doc-Wagon would come save my sorry butt - I'd guess that the online version would have the same option. In that case, I'd guess the primary incentive not to die is financial. Paying for med-evac every 10 minutes would be expensive. |
Precisely. The financial reprecussions of dying is the primary drawback.
| QUOTE |
| Barrens wouldn't have a police response, but different neighborhoods might have gang response, etc. If nothing else, the gang would be interested in getting that expensive rifle... |
Good suggestion. Even in the most lawless place, someone is vying for power and trying to exert control over what happens. Rampant and purposeless player killing in such areas is only detrimental to the player doing the killing.
| QUOTE |
| Your runners do not say "Okay, we tool up with the heavy gear and go out to the Barrens looking for some weaker runners to make dead." You don't do that kind of crap, unless you want the whole fucking Shadow community to turn you into a fine red paste. |
Doing such a thing would increase the Heat level exponentially for the heavy geared up runners while effectively netting them no financial or karma gain. Not only is there no point, but doing such would have a detrimental effect on the character when other content is available to experience. Does the griefer character really want Lone Star NPCs to camp his safehouse for 72 hours looking to play sniper Whack-a-Mole? Wouldn't it be better time spent exploring the first floor basement levels of the Renraku Arcology just before the Shutdown?
Now, as for the Rigger PvP element previously mentioned-
Riggers will be able to participate in PvP, PvV and VvV combat. If a non-rigger is attacked while in a vehicle, he leaves the vehicle after damage is calculated, if taken, and engages. If a Rigger is within a vehicle when it is attacked, the vehicle checks for damage, and then makes a crash test to determine if the vehicle is still operational and to what extent before entering combat mode. A vehicle may become aggressive to another vehicle or person by entering combat mode if it is equipped with weaponry. From that point, standard combat rules apply.
Inhabitants of the vehicle are not harmed unless the vehicle fails its crash test. Shadowrun Online combat will not have any form of a "One-Hit Kill" even from a tank-mounted rail gun. All player participants in a combat situation will have the opporunity to act. This includes Deckers, Riggers and the Astrally Projecting.
| QUOTE |
| Inhabitants of the vehicle are not harmed unless the vehicle fails its crash test. Shadowrun Online combat will not have any form of a "One-Hit Kill" even from a tank-mounted rail gun. All player participants in a combat situation will have the opporunity to act. This includes Deckers, Riggers and the Astrally Projecting. |
This is worrying. Firstly because it can actually be a means to encourage greiefing (Blasting someone to 9 boxes and saying "Run, piggie, SQUEAL!"), but also because it's insane. Anyone who takes a shot from a tank-mounted railgun should be losing limbs at the least, and only on a very poor shot. In 99/100 cases, I'd say he should be flat-out dead.
Naturally, you can't give him flat-out permadeath, but still...
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| Anyone who takes a shot from a tank-mounted railgun should be losing limbs at the least, and only on a very poor shot. In 99/100 cases, I'd say he should be flat-out dead. Naturally, you can't give him flat-out permadeath, but still... |
I say, give him a Jelly flaw.
You have no form, as you have been liquified. It hurts. Lots.
| QUOTE (Sketchy) |
| I say, give him a Jelly flaw. You have no form, as you have been liquified. It hurts. Lots. |
Tons of new stuff for you folks to take a look at. The monorail video, Aztechnology teocalli, and Player Owned Buildings section are a few of the newer concepts we've added to the site. Feel free to stop by and give us your thoughts.
-GreyPawn
-Shadowrun-Online.com
-GreyPawn
-Shadowrun-Online.com
Nice video. If this were '98, I'd be impressed. As it is, this is '05. Still, a nice concept demonstrator, though something that's two ordinary trains plus the distance between them wide, shoulden't be called a 'mono' rail. 
| QUOTE |
| Nice video. If this were '98, I'd be impressed. As it is, this is '05. |
Was there a Shadowrun MMO concept proposal site with a better looking rough first animation in '98 that I missed out on? We're not quite in the "impress the average onlooker's socks off" phase yet. Mostly still in the "this has never ever been rendered, conceptualized or thought of before for Shadowrun" discovery phase. While we could do that internally, I've always admired some level of transparency in the development process, especially with a game so many have strong feelings about.
The monorail is actually a single rail, but the design makes it carry two sets of cars. The jury is still out on it, the height at which it enters the arcology and the scaling. But once again, its just a rough design.
ON death PD
one's death must be true death. SR is live fast die fast. lose that and you WILL no be in the SR world. I don't ride the bus in sr without a gun. if there is no fear of death there is no thrill of living.
"but i don't want my character to die, and start over with a new one" you whine.
the pen and paper system solves that problem, its not hard to translate it. quick development. you can develop you runner rather quickly compared to other systems.
those lucky and smart enough to live will rise to power and be the envy and hate of those below them.
life and death, they are true and absolute. by including them you give a life to the world. greafing will be a small problem, but things will balance. you must realise that a self correcting device will always correct it's self. forced correction will fail as soon as you take you hand off it.
spending money on Doc'wagons. Security PCs and NPCs alike. you fellow chummer with a med kit and a stem patch. and you whits, that will keep you alive.
P.S.
i want you to think of you 5 best gaming stories, the one's you swap with other gamers. the one's you laugh about and make you want to game again.
I bet at LEAST 3 of them involve you character dieing, or almost dieing.
that is what you rember.
not run: a=(random 648,clock) b=(StatCha/johnsonSeed) c=(where random 84,clock)
"you mission is ;string a b c;"
one's death must be true death. SR is live fast die fast. lose that and you WILL no be in the SR world. I don't ride the bus in sr without a gun. if there is no fear of death there is no thrill of living.
"but i don't want my character to die, and start over with a new one" you whine.
the pen and paper system solves that problem, its not hard to translate it. quick development. you can develop you runner rather quickly compared to other systems.
those lucky and smart enough to live will rise to power and be the envy and hate of those below them.
life and death, they are true and absolute. by including them you give a life to the world. greafing will be a small problem, but things will balance. you must realise that a self correcting device will always correct it's self. forced correction will fail as soon as you take you hand off it.
spending money on Doc'wagons. Security PCs and NPCs alike. you fellow chummer with a med kit and a stem patch. and you whits, that will keep you alive.
P.S.
i want you to think of you 5 best gaming stories, the one's you swap with other gamers. the one's you laugh about and make you want to game again.
I bet at LEAST 3 of them involve you character dieing, or almost dieing.
that is what you rember.
not run: a=(random 648,clock) b=(StatCha/johnsonSeed) c=(where random 84,clock)
"you mission is ;string a b c;"
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