Oh, I agree. There's a reason I wished him luck braving the Redmond Barrens back at the start of the thread.

~J

Listen.

You can make an MMO that is based on Shadowrun, is original, and brings new and different aspects of gameplay to the table.

or...

You can make an MMO that is just like the hoards of MMO's out there already that just happens to be based upon the Shadowrun world.

my opinon...

You have discounted many constructive criticisms and ideas that other dumpshockers have placed on the table, in favor of your vision of a Shadowrun MMO which in my opinion (and possibly only my opinion, but whatever) smacks of convention and will no doubt be swallowed up as "just another MMORPG".

I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning, not sure if I wanted to pipe up here or not. Having experience with both PnP Shadowrun and several of the more successful MMO's (EQ, DAoC, & SWG... eh), I find the idea of a Shadowrun MMO an exciting one.

Would it be different? Yes, of course. The Genesis and SNES carts diverged greatly from how the PnP versions worked, but I can remember several threads regarding these antiquated carts and the enthusiasm on how they made everyone feel was pretty positive in general... and those games are really crap compared to how cool the PnP version is. That said, I'd only pay and play this game if the feeling was there.

As much as I can understand why PD wouldn't work in a MMO, I do have to say that it would be sorely missed IMO for the online version. It just wouldn't feel gritty without the threat of permadeath for some reason. DocWagon respawns, sure... I can buy that. Comes with the MMO territory.

I'm with Kage on the Matrix issue though. Deckers shouldn't be overlayed onto the real world. That just sounds all kinds of gay to me. It makes sense for astral projection, as the mage would really be there.... but not for the Matrix.

Riggers being badasses? I don't get this argument really. If the runs incorporated the same types of situations found in the PnP version, why would they be so kick ass? Indoors riggers do not rule. Charming Johnsons, riggers do not rule. If given the correct penalties, the rigger pet idea wouldn't be the broken "class".

I'm sure I'll catch up on some of the other comments, but let me ask Grey Pawn a question or two...

1) How are you planning on handling the crowds of people that would be populating the city? In almost every piece of Shadowrun art that I have, city streets have throngs of people in them. In most MMO's that I've played, there are only a bare number of NPCs in towns, often being only pivotal individuals (trainers, shop keepers, guards, etc).

2) How interactive would the environment be? Could someone with a rocket launcher blow a hole in a building and would it stay that way? Could someone pick up a trash can and throw it to make a noise distraction? I could come up with other examples, but I think you can tell where I'm going with this.

3) Will there be a sense of time in the game? Will Seattle always be shrouded in night/day... what? Will runners need to sleep and eat in the game? Will they have to pay their bills, such as rent and contact upkeep?

4) Will Kage and Frosty be evil NPCs in the game?

Uh oh. There are those homosexuals again. Git 'em, pa!

The word does have another, equally valid meaning.

But it's nonsensical to say that it sounds all kinds of happy.

~J

It also means strange or odd, and has so for much longer than it has been in popular use in reference to homosexuals.

Just as yellow can mean the color, but also be attributed to a coward. Words can and do often have multiple meanings in English, especially when taking colloquialisms and slang into account.

There's a point where being PC can be taken too far.

I'm seeing no evidence of that in any etymology I've found. Everything I'm finding is agreeing that the term was used to describe homosexuals starting in the nineteenth century and only starting to mean strange or odd after that. If you've got proof, now would be the time to show it.

Come to that, I'm also not finding anything to suggest that gay meant strange or odd before it was connected to queer by both being labels for homosexuals.

~J

Whatever. I didn't use the word in the first place. I am just saying that it can and does have more meanings, slang or not, than merely homosexual or happy, as do a lot of English words.

Somebody made an interesting point earlier about linking DocWagon and subscription fees.

On reflection, this kind of has some real potential. You could make the SRMMO free to play BUT perma-death (I'd make sure to clearly define the point of unconsciousness between life and death, to give a small chance of being saved). That way people can buy the game, play the game, maybe even do quite well; but their characters are never going to be long-term, since the first time it all hits the fan, so do they.

Subscribers, on the other hand, get DocWagon services - ie, revival at the hospital, the equivalent of the respawn of other games (very similar in nature to the CoH version). Death penalties are up for grabs, really, but some form of experience/karma debt, maybe coupled with a durational weakened state, would seem to be the best. I do NOT favour consequence-free deaths, personally.

And yes, I do think DocWagon should always work. No, it's not pure PnP. Yes, it's economic sense. However much people may wish differently, some things are mandated by the decision to make an MMO in the first place, assuming you want to make a success of it.

Additionally, by the way, I would make certain aspects of gameplay only available to subscribers - player-owned housing springs to mind as a good example. Why have player-owned housing? Well, bragging rights aside it would be a safe location to rest and recuperate, to store equipment, etc. You could own more than one house (housing would probably be best handled as instanced locations) so, for example, a decker might have his main pad and a "throwaway" cheap location for decking from, so that if he blows a trace and report he can bail without losing all his snackies to the imminent strike team.

I'm all for gay rights, and not being prejudiced and all of those other things, but we know what he means and here isnot the place to berate him for his lack of proper thesaurus use. you can feel free to berate him to your hearts content elsewhere, but let's not get this thread closed for being off topic shall we?


Now on to something slightly more on topic. I have to say that the pay for not die mechanic seems good in theory, but I just don't know about it. I'd say instead of having it be a pay your real cash, get a docwagon contract do it like the game, pay your money, get a docwagon contract, and unlike in the real game docwagon always shows up, normal costs and the like still exist (basic you have to pay like 500 for an HRT, for example) but they do always show up.

Also, a Doc Wagon Team doesn't need to be able to grab just one person at a time. If the crap goes down, the ambulance can scoop up a few, plus any more on the way to the hospital. Maybe between 2 and 4, depending on the response (ambulance, chopper, etc..).

Sorry, but if you kill innocent civilians, you shouldn't get a 'negative tick' that you can pay for or have a decker easily remove. It should be something that is at best difficult to remove, and at worst, downright impossible.

You can't make killing a casual action that carries little consequence (I am talking the killing of innocents like school children, passersby, etc...).

True, but for an MMO (an abstraction of an abstraction), you have to come up with some way of dealing with it, if you're going to include stray shots (ie civie deaths) as part of the game. Rather than having a legal element built into the game where a runner has to get a lawyer, spend time in court, then possibly do time in a prison, I would think there would be an abstract way of representing sloppy work.

If it were a monetary penalty, albeit a large one, that would limit the amount of times things got out of hand in public places. And I wasn't inferring that it would be easy to remove if a decker handled it. I'm thinking that it would be a hard Matrix excursion (however its going to be handled) to delete or change the information. Paying for it might represent the whole legal process without bogging down an action game with Perry Mason and Matlock overtures.

You don't need to bog down gameplay with legal proceedings. Paying out'legal fees' and whatnot (basically fining the player), gives the player the feeling that killing innocents "will only result in a fine".

As in RL, even stray shots will get you thrown in the slammer. Allowing players to buy their way out of the consequences of sloppy work is something I wouldn't dismiss entirely. If they have the right contacts, they could pay out by bribing the right people.

The 'right people' are not easy to get ahold of most of the time though, and could require a small 'service', as a show of good faith.

If said contacts aren't available, either from the player's own contacts, or their friends', I could see a character being put in the slammer for awhile. (Time to play that alt character for a bit...)

edit: And who says that doing time couldn't be a part of the game. You show up, kick someone's ass or get yours kicked the first day. Work the guards for kickbacks. Work your connections on the outside to get stuff in. Plan an escape. Prison would represent so many great possibilities. Added to that, you would be in there with players with whom you already share at least one thing in common with =)

Is this just my raving, or does anybody else see some great potential in this?

Imagine you're playing a decker who got busted doing a wire tap on a government official. You worked your contacts and got a good lawyer to get your sentence reduced, but you still have to survive a little time in prison.
If you survive the ordeal, you will no doubt have a slew of new, useful contacts, and possibly a prison tat or too, along with a bit of rep. And let's not forget the imfamous 'Criminal SIN'.

If Civies, PCs/NPCs get shot in public there should be a Lonestar High Threat Response team there in moments laying a thourough and severe butt whupin'.

Back on topic, please - without "gay" as a slur. Thanks.

Hmm, does a MMO really need to be 100% computer driven? I can still see uses for GMs, in fact that could be the most balancing factor of all. The game could be partially controlled by several paid professionals who take on the roles of Lofwyr, Deus, Harlequin, and whatnot. That means the most important NPCs can actually speak rather than being parrots. And it means that a human player just as smart as you, but with an entire SR military at his disposal, can come after you if you tick him off. You might not hesitate to kill somebody if it gives you a minor negative tick on your character. What if you knew that, say, Adam or Ancient History was running as Damian Knight, and might well decide to personally wipe you out because that street-person turned out to be an important Johnson of yours? If you had perhaps one IE for every 400 players I imagine that would be enough for them to personally decide to kick one person's head in a day who has a bad mark on their file, and make things very scary for players who aren't careful. Actually having a half-dozen or so GMs could fix a lot of the storyline problems.

Another question for Grey Pawn: Will there be multiple points of entry on buildings? Would a team be able to send runners in through the sewers, up the walls, through windows... basically other methods besides the front door? Most MMO architecture features a door as the entry point and that's it. Without multiple entry points, the stress on strategy will be lessened.

When runners get into or around the buildings, how will security and stealth work?

Unless you make the power players as hard to approach/find/contact as they are in the SR universe. How can you get a message to Ehran the Scribe? You can't. Not until you are a world shaker anyway.

Indeed. Make them elusive, and have there be no way to PM them.

~J

But let them instigate contact as they deem fit. Arbiters of rules, etc. should be separate from the IE/GD/Power Players IMO. IE/GD/PP should be able to instigate everything from a run to a war (or even host a party at their mansion and invite who they want).

Yeah, it wouldn't be hard to keep the identities of the Immortal players secret, how many people here know how to contact Bill Gates?

And yeah, they could seriously drive the plot by having a set of instructions once a month, and this would also allow for player Johnsons more easily. For instance this month SK's trying to mess up Ares' new industrial plant. So Lofwyr, played by some human, seeks out the ten or twelve really skilled players who are playing as Johnson's and have him as a contact. He tells each of them he wouldn't be particularly sad if something bad happened to that new Ares industrial plant and there's X nuyen in it for them for a set of about 50 things Lofwyr would like to see happen (all the standard goodies like computer failure, paydata, kidnappings, and blowing stuff up). These human Johnsons set dozens and dozens of runs up for teams they know of, leading to a whole new storyline. Meanwhile the human playing Damien Knight figures out someting is up (Obviously he already knew from the meeting but pretends not to until a runner betrays his Johnson and tells him, this will happen) and tells his 12 Johnsons he'd like something bad to happen to SK, and wants to hire some muscle to protect his plant with a bonus if these 50 things don't happen. Viola, from two people who are being paid and a few hours work you've got nearly a hundred shadowruns in action, keeping probably 500 players occupied with entirely human driven plots. For the rest of the week Lofwyr and Damien hunt down that moron rigger who drove a panzer down the street, kill the guy who blew up ten buildings for fun, and hire a second set of shadowruns by putting bounties on people who were caught on camera doing bad things, but didn't do something so stupid as to merit having an Immortal hunt them down.

The human element is what's missing from so many games, and what could really make an SR game stand out.

Well, it also becomes a factor of practicality and cost.

Hiring a couple of folks, especially ones that know their stuff, is not a cheap thing.

This is why most MMOGs do NOT have live NPCs, really.

Not saying it wouldn't be absolutely cool, but it's not exactly a massive return of benefit for the cost and time expendature.


-karma

I do see your point and it would add to the cost. But I'm not sure the return on cost wouldn't be pretty massive, it's not brain surgery, you wouldn't have to pay a six figure salary for somebody to be a Dragon (Unless somebody hires Master Shake). Given an assumption of 5000 paying customers each throwing 20 dollars a month in that's 100,000 dollars in revenue each month. While I realize a heck of a lot of cash is going to be flowing into artists, programmers, and servers, there should be room in there for a half-dozen guys getting a few hundred a month for playing the godlike NPCs, particularly if, by making the game "Absolutely cool" they attract an extra thousand paying customers and generate another 20,000 revenue. Somebody who knows more than me about the industry would have to do real math to figure out the cost benefit beyond my guesswork, though.

I can tell you right off that spending the time and effort to play the godlike NPCs properly will take more than "a few hundred a month".

~J

Not only would it be interesting for the people who have joined the game already, it would get to be one of those "ground breaking features" that they could put on the back of the box. "Quests (runs), planned out and created by actual human beings, who react to your failures and successes." Or something like that.

I like the idea, and personally, I would think that things like that are exactly what could make something a best seller, rather than just use what's been done before, you do something new and inovative. I would think a company would be able to see the advantage of that.

The Live NPC's wouldn't be on 24/7 anyway; more present for the purposes of planned events. Heck, hire four people to do monthly live-organised runs at different levels and BOOM you're light-years ahead of everyone else (possible exception of EQ1's Stormhammer server, but since they make you fork out something like five times as much moolah for crap event... well, you do the math )

A combination? Sometimes an uber-NPC is in a certain location, sometimes a string of missions leads to them, and sometimes the game writers come up with a storyline, come up with parameters (Awakened == 1 && rep >= 10 && Essence >= 3 && race != Elf && inJail == 0 && AverageHoursperMonth >= 30) and it will spit out a random player character to focus on. AverageHoursperMonth could keep vital events from focusing on people who aren't going to be there to see them through, while it could be dropped for more one-off or less important events.

~J

Actually, a real easy way to create an image of random encounter can be done.

Each player character has a random generated long string key identifier made for their character upon the creation of the character.

These characters will act like "blocked group IP addresses" to the NPC's except that instead of being blocked, they will be accepted, while all other key numbers are blocked.

When any player character is in the are of an NPC that has accepted their "group IP address" then they will react to them being in their area as they are programed to do, (eg. running up to the player and talking to them).

To prevent a confused NPC trying to run up to 3 or 5 people at the same time, they will hold the "IP's" in their memory in an ordered fashsion of priority, going to one before the other, and if that "IP" in the area leaves before they get to them, then they move on to the next one available.

If none are available, they sit idel and scan for the PC's with matching "IP's" that they are to "accept".

To add to this, the long key number for the PC could be altered post-creation, as a reaction to their in-game character decisions.
This would change what group of NPC's will react to them, as different sets of NPC's would have a different blanket of number groups to react to.

This would mean that, generically, the more bad things you do, the more "bad" people NPC's would come up to you with offers, and the more "crush bad guys" officers would chase you.

actually that is an interesting idea.

I'm no computer programmer, or have any real computer knowledge, so this is a question, as well as a suggestion.

Would it be possible to design it so that the NPCs would respond to the "numbers" of runners who have done specific things? Like let's say Joe runner completes an Ares run to blow up a SK building. Could you set it up so that as soon as he finishes that mission he starts getting talked to by, say Ares Johnsons, about doing another job?

Or say for example Joe runner finishes his Ares run and after that his next 3 out of 4 run offers come from Ares, because he did such a good job. Or if he failed, but survived he get's no more offers from Ares, instead they come from Novatech, (or any other AAA corp).

How feasable, and how much server space/game stoping lag would that take up?

It would take up that much more server power/database space, but I don't see that it's unfeasible.

~J

then the question for those who tend to play MMOs is would it make you want to play the game. Would "NPCs that actually react to your actions, your successes and failures" make people buy the game?