The information is meant to be accessible to the public: Link (Which i just common sense with bankruptcy cases, you need every creditor to be able to have this info.)

The information also should be safe:

"Notice of Privacy Policy of Court Electronic Files
Under the Judicial Conference’s privacy policy certain personal data identifiers must be partially redacted from the case file or pleading whether it is filed traditionally or electronically. These include:

1) Social Security numbers should be redacted to show only the last four digits;
2) Birth dates should contain only the year of birth;
3) Individuals known to be minors should be referred to with initials, and
4) Financial account numbers should be redacted to the last four digits.
Click here for more details."

I understand the information is publicly available if people know where to look and how to look. Like I said, I'm just not comfortable posting said information since neitehr of the private individuals have spoken out about the situation. Add onto that the fact that the mods just instituted a "Right to Privacy" clause to the ToS, and well... I've already racked up two warnings since I stepped down as Mod I would feel really silly getting banned from a message board I co-founded

(Plus, as I've stated elsewhere... Just because somethings legal in the Real World doesn't mean it's legal here)

Bull

It might not be allowed here, but it'd still be legal. Private citizens, even forum owners, cannot make laws.

I meant Forum Legal, now Legal Legal



We call them rules and Terms of Service, but technically speaking, they are a set of laws set in place by those running Dumpshock.

Semantics, and I know what you mean. But, you also knew what I meant

Bull

You do not call people who break forum rules "criminals", so you should not call the forum rules laws, nor breaking them "illegal". Not to mention that calling forum rules laws looks ridiculous.

Agreed.

Though I'd certainly like to call some of the spammers we've had come through here criminals. And toss them in jail. Because good god are they annoying

Bull

A number of spammers have been tossed in jail, as far as I know.

Though back on topic - it will be interesting to see whether or not IMR will pay the money demanded by the claimants. And who else will follow suit.

For a moment I thought this company was going to make it out alive, now not so much. I think I hear the Fat Lady starting to warm up her vocals.

In my experience businesses and people who do no pay all their debts, but continue to do business, usually only pay when forced to. Judging by the information so far, IMR falls in that category. I think they would have enough money to pay their creditors, if not for the co-mingling. It remains to be seen if they can get the money, or will go bankrupt.

One thing is clear though: If IMR goes down the blame only falls on Coleman, and all his supporters. The money would be there - if it had not been taken.

It is the saddest sight ever to see wistleblowers and creditors who do what they have to to get their money be vilified.

Well,

I don't know if you could exactly blame his supporters. I can assume that the vast majority of these "supporters" fall into one of two catagories.

1. Blind, clueless, enthusiasts that can't bear to face bad news.

2. Folks that are painted into a corner financially and are so inextricably intertwined with Coleman that they simply have no choice but to sink or swim with him.

This lawsuit might be a play to force the company under in a bid to aquire the IP's. If that's the case then it's simply business. Nothing more, nothing less.

People can whine about piling on, or beating someone who's on the ropes.

Those people need to realize that CGL put themselves on the ropes.

I'm just bummed that people that I consider friends are on both sides of this, and they are going to get hurt.

I think that sucks.

Clutch

P.S. Does anyone remember a few years back when some BattleTech fans at GenCon gave the Colemans a really nice custom glass trophy for "saving BattleTech".

Is trading while insolvent a crime in the US? Otherwise a quick preruse looks like infomation posted by frank et al is true. Only 40k, concievably if IMR can recover the money from coleman they can just pay it out - assuming they can recover it.

Vilified?
Who, what, where, when and how?

Please, don't point to Frank.

Everyone who blames Freelancers and whistleblowers (like Frank), instead of those who co-mingle money and do not pay freelancers on time. If you are ranting about what designs "Frank and Co." might have on the license, instead of being angry at Coleman, you're in that club.

They're not mutually exclusive. I have a vile, vile place in my heart for Frank & Co., because Frank's not a whistleblower, he's an ambulance chaser. Big difference.

I'm also notably angry with Loren Coleman for precipitating this train wreck in the first place.

Just so you keep your story straight...there isn't a single, solidified, sustained position that says one thing or another. There's a spectrum, and you painting it otherwise and calling people criminals who haven't been charged wtih, let alone convicted of, a crime doesn't help matters any.

who is 'Frank and Co?'

U.S. law allows companies to operate while their debts are greater than their assets. We're much more forgiving than many code countries in that sense. Bankruptcy Chapters 11 and 13 are designed to allow reorganization and/or planned repayment of debts, and companies can resist creditors' moves to liquidate by requesting that they be moved to a different chapter. The gist of the system is that it's designed equitable rather than rigidly legal and get as many people as possible get as much money as possible, even if that means sustaining the operations of a technically insolvent business for a time. Courts can re-order claims ("equitable subordination") or convert debt into equity (giving some creditors an ownership stake in a publicly traded firm, for example, to free cash to repay creditors with more immediate need of payment). Bankruptcy as a process is very flexible and, as a result, bankruptcy judges are very powerful

I am actually not calling them criminals - I do know the difference between co-mingling of funds, which was admitted to, and embezzlement. And that was sustained - CGL stated there was co-mingling.

It's also known and confirmed that CGL has not paid several freelancers since years.

That there was a chapter 7 filed against them also is pretty much confirmed by the documents we saw. And I must say I really, really dislike people who withdraw hundreds of thousands of dollars, yet do not pay freelancer a few thosand dollars, or license holders their due.

My dislike for people who knowingly work for those people is not as big, but by no means non-existant.

License holders not being paid? Topps was paid to date (not for the license renewal yet, I'd guess), wasn't it? Or is that in reference to Wildfire?

According to the documents, WildFire LLC is one of the petitioners, and they're claiming unpaid royalties.

Yes. Of course someone can come and say that this is just a claim by Wildfire... and that it's not sure it's a valid claim... and all the other info we have is not substantial either... but at some point, people start to look ridiculous if they assume everyone but CGL is lieing, and assume that Wildfire would launch a frivolous lawsuit etc.

Just out of interest, has there been a single person on this thread or anywhere that has actually voiced this opinion?

This. I stated freelancers were not paid, and that funds were co-mingled. Apparently Patrick here thinks neither was sustained.

Well maybe I'm reading a different post there, but as far as I can see, Patrick doesn't say anything even close to what you've been implying.

Blames the freelancers and whistleblowers for what...vilified them how?

I distinctly remember talking about setting up a freelancer aid fund, not to absolve CGL of any debts that they owed but to assist freelancers having a tough time.

Where I differ from some is that I would rather see CGL self-correct and pay off those debts rather than simply wanting them to fail out of some sense of justice. That I look for agendas in what some people have posted is not blaming them, merely seeking to understand the perspective that they are operating from.

Since you insist on pointing to Frank. My problem with him is not just the tone of his posts but the intent. Shining light on the facts is not a bad thing, but when the intent comes across as so blantantly hostile, gleeful in the mistakes of others, and to revel in the potential downfall of a company, that is mean spirited.

My anger is my own, if I opt to share it, that is my decision. If I decide not to share it, that is not condoning any actions that may have taken place. Only, that in my experience stomping around shaking my fist at the powers that be doesn't seem constructive. Add to that, I have no first hand knowledge of what transpired, no instrinsic right to know said information (as I am not invested in that company), and this silly idea 'innocent until proven guilty', hopefully you will understand my reticence in serving up speculation. Or at the very least bringing a can of gasoline to the thread.

My problem with what I've seen from Frank so far has not even been his tone or that he is spinning the facts to fit his point just as much as everyone else (well, if everyone does it, I can hardly blame someone specifically for it...), but that he likes to give the impression that he's the one and only person not to do so.

Innocent until proven otherwise doesn't apply in civil cases. And the co-mingling was admitted by CGL. Does anyone doubt that freelancers were not paid?

Those two parts together paint a pretty clear and not pretty picture of the company.

I don't care about the company being healed, any company who doesn't pay its debts for years yet doesn't even notice the co-mingling of such sums is rotten.

No, and that is exactly the point I'm trying to make. You are attacking someone that doesn't exist, or at least hasn't shown his face in this thread.

Does no one support CGl then? Does no one here think it's a good thing Coleman hasn't been gotten rid of? Does no one here basically think "As long as I get my books I don't care what CGL does or does not"?

Fair enough. What I offered up was my opinion, not fact.

Take a look around the game industry, there are only three companies still in existence from the early days, ICE (although they went through a restructuring and are a mere shadow of what they were), Steve Jackson Games, and Palladium. TSR has been consumed by the beast that is WotC, so I don't count them. Out of these, only SJG seems to be doing consistently well. This is a tough industry and one that has chewed up more than a few companies that I thought were destined for great things along the way.

Over the years I have stomped around, hoisted my fists and screamed against the company lines...

Without D&D there is no game industry.
The Hasbro/WotC merger is going to work out well for D&D (i.e. more capital, more market access, etc.).
Collectible card games are going to bring into roleplaying a whole new demographic of players.
The OGL is going to rejuvenate the game industry.
The WizKids/Topps merger is going to work out well.

All I succeeded in doing, raising my blood pressure and shortening my life span (which some may think is a good thing).

I don't think I've seen the freelancers being vilified anywhere. There have been some people who are strongly critical of Frank's tone and motivation and by extension, critical of some people who have staunchly defended Frank. But that category isn't "the freelancers." As Patrick pointed out, the freelancers are not "on Frank's side." Each freelancer has their own motivations and feelings on this issue. I think the only things that are universal among the freelancers are:

1: All freelancers agree that freelancers should be paid on time according to their contracts.
2: All freelancers still love the game, regardless of their issues with the current license holder.

Not that this hasn't been a Strawman attack from the very beginning, but now it's getting pretty obvious don't you think? Of course there are those who support CGL (whatever you mean by "support", is everyone that doesn't root for CGL to go away ASAP a "supporter" in your book?). Now what does this have to do with anyone saying "everyone but CGL is lieing, and assume that Wildfire would launch a frivolous lawsuit etc." as you first claimed?

Of course there are people that support CGL. CGL has done a good job re-invigorating the lines. As a faceless entity, CGL is a pretty good thing.

There may be people that think that not getting rid of Coleman is a good thing. It's even possible that those people know things that the street level fan might not. I know that Coleman has children to support, and I think that it sucks that they may have to suffer for all of this mess, but that's completely out of my hands. From my limited personal contact with him (which if memory serves is one about an hour long phone conversation), Coleman is a pretty nice guy. I know for an indisputable fact that Randall Bills is an honorable man.

There are without a doubt lots of folks that could give a damp poop how they get thier Shadowrun, so long as they get thier Shadowrun. To be frank (not Trollman), this is probably the most honest and forthright stance to take.

In the end, it's not really our business how we get our games. Our only real vote is whether or not we decide to open our wallets and part with our hard earned sheckles.

Clutch

To your first point, I would reply...
"Semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit" a rough translation is "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges." Given that I am not going to play juror in the court of public opinion I await a legally binding verdict and consider the dispute to be unresolved.

The second point...
While you may not care, if there is the opportunity for the company to fulfill their financial obligations more fully...I would imagine that might be of interest to those parties more directly affected. Again, just my opinion.

QFT

and

3: All freelancers are hoping they get paid their outstanding debts, regardless of what happens to the current license holder.

@Fuchs: that's the reason some people want CGL to pull through, because past experience has shown that the company surviving is much more likely to result in people being paid than if it does go belly up.

Very well stated.

As a former freelancer, I even have trouble with approving or disapproving of Catalyst Game Labs as a whole entity. I mean, yes, CGL absolutely put out some great Shadowrun material. But that was the creative side of CGL: the writers, the developers, the editors, and Adam on layout. Do you want to know how many conversations I had with members of CGL management during my time was a writer? None! I even tried to initiate a few, but never got replies. They were a non-factor in my involvement in book production. I'm sure the developers worked more closely with them, but I'm not sure how much impact management had on the actual developer decisions.

So, for my personal feelings, I can disapprove strongly of CGL's management without disapproving of CGL's creative team (who I think were awesome and did their jobs very well). And I personally feel that significant changes could be made to CGL's management without destroying the great work that CGL's creative team did on the Shadowrun products. Unfortunately, damage has already potentially been done to CGL's creative team: freelancers have been lost and Adam has been lost.

These "CGL is evil" vs. "CGL makes Shadowrun awesome" discussions are too simple for me.

It's by no means reaching to state now that all info points at a history of CGL screwing it's creditors over. Essentially, by wishing the company well one does condone such actions as not paying debts - despite a financial situation so rosy that a few hundred thousand dollars can become "co-mingled" and no one is missing them for months to years.

Anyone who still wants CGL to keep doing business with the same people who are responsible for the current mess at its helm basically supports such practises.

Hell, I support CGL and think its a good thing we haven't totally divested ourselves of Loren Coleman.

But I'm still mad at him and for what he allowed to happen. I think the licensees, employees and freelancers (including me) should get paid. I don't begrudge any of them or the other employees for quitting or using their rights to get paid.

I think you're tilting a straw windmills here if you really think that anyone is blaming the freelancers.

There's no need to support CGL just because one supports the individuals who actually write and create the game. The creative team could be working for another firm with less morally questionable business practises.

A reminder that the ToS also preclude trolling, baiting, and spamming threads.

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I disagree, which is my opinion. So, you and I are at an impasse. I won't beat a dead horse so I will shuffle on.

Given that the sums owed to freelancers do not seem to be particularly big, and given the sums withdrawn according to the info we have, paying all freelancers shouldn't be a problem if the nice Mister Coleman would sell his house (or take a loan with it as a collateral) and pay the debts. Or maybe the honorable Mister Bills could force him to.

But to claim that the company has to survive to pay the creditors would only be true if Coleman had no assets to go after. Unless he wasted all the money in a casino, there should be something to collect.

Wait wait. You disagree with another person's opinion? You must be evil! Evil!.... oh yeah... Bob Lord of Evil never mind.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the current US housing market....

Yes, that is also true. I mean, we've already seen that some of the same people, over at Posthuman Studios, can still create an excellent product.

So he can sell low, or take a loan to less than favorable conditions. As long as it covers the freelancer's and other creditors money it's alright. They did not co-mingle funds.

No false advertizen here!

Thanks for making me smile. Even, villians need a hug once in a while! Granted its normally somebody that we just sneak-stabbed but still!

Many houses are currently worth less than their mortgages are. Selling it might net nothing.

I suppose there is no mortgage on the house. He took the money he needed from his own company, after all.