In the end the customer's decide what flies and what sinks. And AH has had a very good and long history of listening to the fans (Bookclub threads anyone?) and getting valuable and favorable feedback. That generates a lot of trust.

Is he bitter? Of course. Does that make him biased? Likely. But as we recently found out, some of those who complain are on CGL's payroll (as fictive as it may turn out to be), and that makes them even more biased, in my opinion.

Here's a better 'h' word to replace hubris. It's 'hyperbole'.

Did I say the above? No. Did I say that because of his history he is someone who's opinion on quality many of us will respect? Yes. Does he have an intuition of what the replacement work coming might be like and do we have reason to suppose it might be so? Apparently so for reasons I gave but you omitted to quote. Please don't distort my meaning.

K.

One other thing that seems to come up in these threads is the notion that there has always been writer turnover so it's not that big of a deal that there is such turnover now. However, it seems from "old pro" posts that these turnovers mainly had longtime writers to shepherd them before or during the change. We don't really see that as much right now. I believe it was posted earlier that 80ish% of the 4th gen books were written by a core of people who are now gone. Not only are they gone, but they are angry gone. So people aren't coming into the game with the same support and guidance. This is one of the reasons that I think many are reacting violently and vociferously to the changes. As has been mentioned many times is that trust is key for the consumers, and the trust level of the consumers here has definitely been negatively affected by the loss of key writers.

Yeah. There are people violating their non-disclosure agreements, leaking items from the forums to people no longer in the freelance pool, and they're doing it deliberately and maliciously.

And Frank therefore felt the need to pour some more gasoline on the fire; apparently things weren't hot and bright enough.

Not that I'll ever be able to convince the Cult of St. Frank of the strangeness of their thought processes, but I find the fact that someone is doing something wrong (viloating their NDA contracts) in order to spread pandemonium...and Jason is being painted as the bad guy for trying to stem the leak...kind of funny, in a horribly morbid kind of way. I simply cannot wrap my head around the way they think.

I kind of find it funny that authors we knew and liked (even if we disagreed with some of their opinions, at times vehemently) are gone, driven out by unethical behaviour, mismanagement, and incompetence, and people wonder why we're not too keen on trusting people who continue to work for such "management".

If you can't wrap your head around this maybe you shouldn't write for Shadowrun, a game that deals with more complicated concepts than "my boss is always right even if he is wrong".

I can. They want to see Loren Coleman lose control of the license, no matter what it takes, no matter where it goes.

I don't have a dog in this hunt beyond really, REALLY wanting the Runner's Toolkit, but I will say again that all this drek is killing my desire to play Shadowrun. I know there has been shit in the past, I know there will be more in the future, but I get kind of invested in things.

They need to just shut all this crap down.

I mean, what are the naysayers going to do? Claim that Dumpshock is overmoderated and the moderators are evil, vicious, CGL-cocksucking douchenozzles? How on earth is that any different than what they're doing now? Better to just shut it down and tell everyone to piss off and get over it. Much like they did with the Bulldrek and Lounge forums years and years ago.

First, Dumpshock is independent, so it's not like CGL can sway things, short of revoking permissions to trademarks or something. So that whole first amendment thing kinda rules. But more than that, shutting people down on Dumpshock will look far, far worse than any positive gains it leads to, and the people will continue talking elsewhere. Better to have the discussion here, where all sides have a voice (whether they use it or not).

Hey, I've put up with a lot of insults, but insinuating that CGL is the US Congress is going to far. This means war!

*facepalm* Touche.

Actually, the first ammendment does not apply here anyway.
Exactly the same how you can forbid people who come to your house to talk about a certain thing and simply kick them out if they don't stop, the same applies here.

Errr considering Bobby himself is as of a week ago getting checks from CGL your opinion has a large logical hole in it.

I'm not privy to the closed door stuff nor do I really care to be.Basically we're at the "Pray for Rain/Pray for Shine" point of determination. None of the parties involved at the forum level will have a stake in whether or not Topps keeps the license with CGL. If I had to venture a guess that will come down to a big issue between the primary stakeholders two of which are Randal Bills and Loren L Coleman.

The central problem is CGL has some cash shortfall issues. The causes are in disagreement and actually pretty irrelevant to those outside the company. Even if Loren stole all the money and spent it on Joygirls and Novacoke it doesn't change the essential problem.

That problem is the one that needs to be fixed for the company needs to move forward, it's the one they need to fix to both get the license renewed and pay their workers.

The secondary problem is allegations of mismanagement and fraud, some of those affect the license with Topps, some don't, their actually fairly irrelevant to the production of Shadowrun as a whole. The will likely get chased down internal to the company as a whole.

The tertiary issue is interpersonal conflicts because of all this and the egos involved and the mud slinging that comes of it.

What does it all mean: In a few weeks a determination will be made on whether CGL retains the license for Shadowrun, there are reasons they might and reasons they might not. some of which are even unconnected to this whole affair. In the interim you have people that have staked their future in whole or in part on the success or failure of the line going forward and people who have made any number of dire predictions, warnings and signs on things going forward. For example both Frank and AH are pretty well all-in committed to the company going down, at least as far as Shadowrun goes that's the only way they are going to see work again at least with some level of credibility. On a lower tier you have folks like OtakuSensei who has basically proven and stated that no statement the company makes will be satisfactory, and who has intimated that he will not be buying any books going forward until some criteria is met, that's actually fine.

My personal stance and advice to others, and this is one that has been crystalized by my own actions, is that we should all wait and see. Maybe i'm a company shill to use Bobby's insinuation but at this point at least as far as the license goes things will be done or at least decided in a few weeks.

Also for all the cult of Frank folks, HI!

If we want to discuss what's going on, then we can do that. If people aren't interested, then they don't need to follow it. Isn't that true?

K.

Company image is very important too though. And I have to repeat: An author writing for Shadowrun who can't understand that people distrust corp-spin doctors, and sararimen toting the company line, and place more faith in authors than execs, does not inspire much trust in his ability as a shadowrun writer (aprt from, maybe, writing the in-character "A sarariman's Code: Why you should blindly love your corp" guide.

It's the same as an aspiring BT writer professing that he can't understand why people would want to pilot battlemechs and kill others, instead of piloting agromechs and discussing things.

I think the whole episode points back to a lack of trust and professionalism at CGL. With the NDA status as it is they were basically relying on the good graces of their talent to keep anything secret. While that should be the way you operate normally (with a firmly secured safety net of NDAs), it's not a big surprised that when people got angry they lashed out. When people then take sides on whether CGL should retain the license or not it gets easier to convince yourself that you are doing right because you're working against some force that is doing wrong. Even if they weren't under NDA, they still knew what they were doing. Doesn't make it right, but I'm not mystified people are taking the low road.

I'm sure the folks involved were acting in what they thought were the best interests of the game. I can't blame them for that but I'm sorry that they chose to do something unethical. I'm glad that at this point the draft has not been made public and I hope that things stay that way. As much as I don't agree with CGL's handling of this issue and the situation with Coleman; I could only see someone publicly leaking the draft hurting themselves more than CGL right now. If half of the rumors are true CGL won't need any help going down and they don't need a legal target to use as an excuse why they couldn't publish a book they may never have been able to get out the door anyway.

Not really. It's a difference whether someone on your payroll praises you and attacks your enemies, or if someone you send checks because you have to thanks to a contract, critizes you. The first is likely to do those things since he is paid by you, the other not so.

Getting a payment for most of your past work with no expectation of any future work coming in, does not constitute "being on CGL's payroll" which is what you're replying to.



They're very relevant because we have lost talented people as a result of this who between them probably did the bulk of the 4th Edition, people who say they will under no circumstances work with Loren Coleman again. That has an obvious and direct impact on the game.



Hey, we're all waiting and seeing, we don't have much choice.



I like the idea of the Cult of Frank. He could be a mentor spirit in 4e: +2 dice to spells with an elemental Fire effect.

K.

And here we have the eternal problem with this thread, even though Patrick has written for Shadowrun in the past and has a track record, because his opinion differs with Fuchs he shouldn't write for Shadowrun, I for one am very glad that Fuchs whoever the heck he is doesn't actually call the shots. In absence of actual ability to affect change some of those in the anti-CGL crowd are basically resorting to falsehoods. character assassination and other forms of personal attacks. Everyone who doesn't agree with them is some variant of corporate shill or "blindly loyal to the corp" or whatever other cliche they can think of, nothing new at this point.


PS: Patrick was one of those who withheld copywrite to get paid, I guess he blindly loves his corp.

Patrick totally stole my moustache wax, too.

I think we prioritize the issues a bit differently, but given our different situations I can appreciate that.

While I stand by the premise that unsatisfactory comments are not satisfactory, I agree wholeheartedly that we should wait and see what happens. Nothing we say here is going to have a long term effect of the situation but I appreciate everyone's input. Getting riled up doesn't do anyone much good and can in fact do harm. I personally wiped an instance group last night in WoW thanks to having this thread open on another monitor.

Actually my point delivered in somewhat round about was I wasn't sure when not receiving money from CGL became a sort of sanctification. When per AH's own statements he was paid, and complained about being paid, just a bit ago.

Knasser: Talent turnover is potentially affecting in fact it can reasonably be assumed that there might be a spin up time on new authors coming in. However writing talent and quality product are very subjective. For example, what if someone, we'll just use me for example, really really disliked Dawn of the Artifiacts, could Jennifers departure be construed as a good thing? Maybe. Whether a book is well written is very very subjective. SO basically we've got potential effect about a subjective choice.

Also on the Frank mentor spirit, don't forget -4 on etiquette rolls.

If Patrick cannot udnerstand why people distrust CGL at this point, and why they do not trust people who work for them while other, more prominent freelancers and employees have gone, then he really shouldn't write for Shadowrun.

While I can understand someone's disapproval in seeing an NDA violated, some of the accusations have been baseless because an NDA isn't always there to be violated. This makes them look more like they're attacking someone for being a tattle-tale. I myself am disappointed in those that seem to shift all of the moral outrage onto the messenger, seemingly disregarding the actual problems being pointed out.

Many people want to see the license handled by more trustworthy people. Their trust has been abused by the news of 'co-mingling' & attempted fraud by Coleman, Bills's forgiveness bordering on condoning the behavior, and seeing most of the creative team that made Shadowrun quit. They are not in some kind of 'cult' rallying under the directives of Frank, they are people who want to see a company they can trust handle a game they love.

As for myself, I do want to see the company shut down, and shut down hard. I want the game to be handled responsibly and ethically, and the revelations made make such an outcome drastically better if the game is taken up by another company.

This seems to be turning into a discussion about whether people have agendas in wanting CGL to fail. (Well, it's also turning into a slanging match, but I'm trying to stay out of that part). On the subject of wanting to see CGL succeed or die, this is my take. It's what seems logical to me.

My personal stake in this, as with a multitude of others, is that Shadowrun should remain an excellent game with excellent products coming out. Now I think it is fair to say that the credit for excellence in Shadowrun is primarily with the people that write it and that so long as some entity is writing the checks, it matters less who. Talented people who wrote the bulk of 4th have now parted ways with CGL, seemingly irrevocably. Now obviously the ideal scenario is that CGL get their act together, extricate themselves from the bankkrupcy suits, etc. and resume producing great products. The financial prospects of that are sounding pretty dire, but ignoring that and focusing on the creative side of things, which is really what everything else is there to support, it seems to me that the only way we'll get some of the engines of creation from 4th back into the game if it's not through CGL. Therefore the next best situation is some other entity takes up the duties of cheque writing (hopefully better than CGL did). Now another branch of reasoning is that CGL replaces the talented people that have left it in disgust. This is possible, but it requires not only people who are similarly talented and dedicated, but also familiar with the setting. We already know that the handover from outgoers to incomers isn't going to be smooth. CGL would also require a Line Developer very experienced with the setting. So all in all, it looks like the best prospect for the game is a smooth take up of the licence by another company, enabling existing talent and work that is already written and proofed to become available again. That's my logic.

Obviously there are downsides to Shadowrun moving on. Primarily, CGL has already contracted people to rewrite replacement material for that which they've lost and presumably someone is trying to fill Adam's shoes on layout. Jason is probably beavering away as Line Developer. If CGL loses Shadowrun, then are these people going to end up in the same pit that the people they've just replaced were in, regarding non-payment for work done. I was employed by a company once that I found were engaged in fraud (they got caught, btw) and was removed from that company due to my disagreements with the manager. I had to train my own replacement and I felt no malice for him. He had left a previous job to join this firm only to find that it collapsed in lawsuits about two / three months later. So if CGL goes, I hope it does so leaving its current replacement writers with non-bouncing cheques. I certainly would have been very wary of doing work on spec with CGL given what's precipitated this crisis. That Battletech side of things isn't affected by the issues of loss of existing knowledge and talent, so perhaps the best thing to hope for that best meets the needs of everyone, is that CGL loses the Shadowrun licence to a more competent company that re-engages the best Shadowrun talent around - old and new - but survives ( somehow! ) to retain and produce BattleTech material, paying the new Shadowrun writers their due in the process.

Other possibilities might be good, but this is my reasoning for what looks like the best that I can realistically hope for as an avid purchaser of Shadowrun books.

Peace,

Khadim.

Damsels in distress are not the only ones unionizing. And I totally borrowed your moustache wax, because some platypus-like creature made off with mine and the stores were closed. I put it back; there was even some left in the jar.

Explain the pubic hair then. Go on, explain it.

Really part of the same genetic aberration/expression as the facial hair. Its been forever since I have been in school but I think its Androgenic hair.

BlueMax
/playing the ignorant straight man
//someone has to.

The initial whistle blowing and leaks of information regarding Coleman were in my mind justified, because it lead people who were involved in the situation to understand better the role that they played in it. That includes us folks who were just buying books and introducing the game to our friends.

The leak of a draft of Corp Guide is a different story. While you can argue that it was justified because it allowed AH to weight in on the quality, you would be equally justified saying that it was an unethical action that someone under took in order to harm CGL. That's pretty close to corporate espionage, too close for my personal ethics.

As for the cult of Frank, well, there are forums. I stumbled on to them rather recently. While I check every fews days to see what Frank is saying on this issue now that he's bee banned here, I have to say I've been uncomfortable with the level reverence that some people there hold him in. He's a smart guy who sticks to his guns and goes back a ways with Shadowrun, but he's just one more voice in this issue.

Honestly though we shouldn't make this thread all about Frank. Again.

Yep - entirely agreed that it's subjective. I'm certain that I stated somewhere that my logic was based on the premise of liking most of the 4e stuff a lot and that if you don't, you're logic will follow a different course. I wont dispute that. If you'd like to see Shadowrun take a different course, then you should definitely hope for a change in talent. But I'll say that 4th has been very successful and so clearly the existing work has been very well received. So although it's self-admittedly subjective, it's a position held by many. My belonging to a popular opinion is a novelty that I'm going to enjoy while it lasts.

As you raise a couple of specifics, I'll risk a mild tangent, as much for the sake of finding common ground as anything. I haven't particularly liked the Artifacts series so far (though I bought them, of course). Whilst recognizing the inevitable constraints of pre-written modules, I found them a bit so and so. Though I don't have quite the strong dislike of them that you seem to. For a kindred spirit in that sense, you could talk to Frank who apparently thinks Jennifer pretty lacking in talent based on my reading of his comments. People keep accusing Frank of bias, but really he's tremendously non-partisan and incredibly issues-based in his agenda.

In terms of published adventure work for 4th, I'd say we have Emergence at the very bottom (you can't run it as an adventure, you can't give it to players to read and the adventure frameworks are pitiful skeletons that occasionally make no sense at all - racing Humanis helicopters to a fallen orbital bioweapon, I'm looking at you.), followed by On the Run (the module that forced me to agree with Cain ) and then the Artifacts adventures as passable adventures to the innovative Ghost Cartels substantially higher than all the rest.



Ahh, now that's not fair. Frank actually has quite a high etiquette skill when he wants to. It's just that he regards using that skill as unethical most of the time. I'd propose a Will(4) test to use the skill.

Peace,

Khadim.

It doesn't have to be about "trust". Someone can be a very trustworthy person and still disagree with you on an issue. I personally know nothing about Patrick other than he's been nice and helpful here on DS and wrote some excellent material for Running Wild. It's not for me to say who others should and shouldn't trust. I know I wouldn't lend Loren Coleman five quid and expect to see it back, but most of the other people involved in this, I don't know.

It was a bunyip. Vengeance for not including it in Running Wild, undoubtedly.

K.

Knasser: I see your points and understand them, they are valid. My area of concern is this:

I am not convinced that the writers who left, or the writers who are in place, or the writers who have moved on before this whole thing started, were of such amazing literally perfect quality that they cannot be replaced. This is not a dig on anyone that has left or a endorsement of anyone who stayed on, it's just the way it is in any professional environment. There will be talent turnover and in creative enviroments quality is subjective.

Also based on my own personal experience, the handful of truly amazing teams I've been on professionally have eventually broken up for one reason or another. So to presume just because this one has broken up a bit faster then most and that this is a complete deconstruct moment for the line might be a bit of an overreaction in my opinion. It does seem to be an opinion held by many.

Leaking the draft itself is a different story, I agree. I see nothing wrong with leaking that AH withdrew his contract and someone else was hired to rewrite it, but I can definitely understand the opinion that leaking the replacement draft itself to be unethical.

As for Frank's 'cultists', the praise I've seen on the forum you're referring to has been no worse than what I've seen towards specific individuals on this or other forums. It helps that that forum is the only gaming forum I'm even vaguely aware of that he's allowed in anymore, so his presence has been a mainstay for nearly a decade.

Just posting to say that I see nothing to dispute in the logic of what you say. Obviously I hold the people who delivered 4th so far in high regard so you can see where I come from. I'm also unfamiliar (so far as I know) with the replacement writers work, so that's an unknown for me. All I have to go on is the opinion given by AH and, of more relevance to an objective debate, that presumably the development cycle on the replacement work will be compressed due to what we must guess is CGL's need to get products flying out the door, asap and because, starting the whole writing, editing, proofing cycle from the beginning again has to be bad for available development time. These are specifics I can't know, but obviously they are legitimate concerns.

As regards the dream team breaking up, maybe it is inevitable, but delaying the inevitable is a big part of life and in this particular case, it looks like there hasn't been a very good handover which is really bad for a setting as rich, involved and arcane as Shadowrun.

Right. I understand your points, you understand mine. We could set Internet history here and leave it at that.

Peace,

Khadim.

Funny, we're big on cults and hero worship us humans. I think it is probably our biggest weakness.

If we were to polarize this into two 'cults' with opposed opinions, with one being Frank's I think the other is probably Randall's.

Nobody is sticking up for Loren in this mess but the iconic Randall soldiering on despite the betrayal of his friend and trying to make the best of a bad situation with Jason as his prophet on these boards could be seen to fit.

Not saying that it is that way, I think the whole Cult of [insert talking head here] thing is ludicrous.

As I've already said, I don't want to take sides 'cause this is all getting stupidly mean and petty but if you were to ask me to choose between the Cult of Frank and the Cult of Randall you wouldn't even have finished the sentence before I chose Frank.

Hell, I'm not convinced of that either, and I'm in that "writers who have moved on before this whole thing started" camp. But I do think the ramped-up rate of turnover is bad. The longer you can keep writers around, the more they settle into the material and get a stronger grasp for it. Also, they can tend to think of strings of books in a long-term view, which is usually good for Shadowrun's metaplot. The other problem with what is currently happening is that it isn't just normal turnover (which is inevitable), it's angry turnover. Unfortunately, there could be some good writers in the fanbase here who are now turned off to the idea of writing for Shadowrun because of what they've seen other freelancers go through. That sucks.

So, it really shouldn't be an "old writers are better than the new writers" conversation. How can anyone even judge the new writers, when their material isn't published yet? It's more of a general sense that an unstable writer pool is a bad thing.

Totally agree with you, Jay.

Also, should I feel insulted that the fact I'm still with the writers pool just keeps getting ignored, since I was around long before Bobby, Jennifer, or hell even Synner. I think I was technically in the freelancer pool before even you, Jay, or started around the same time (I don't remember if the Mob War or the Corp War was the first thing I submitted for). As I said before, I'm not a real prolific writer (I'm lazy, pure and simple), but I know my Shadowrun, I'm good at giving input, and Jason's getting more input form me these days than he probably wants So not everyone is a "newb" who doesn't know what they're doing.

Bull

I think we're getting off topic.....

Whatever happened to that belly button ring?

Gold with a small garnet heart today.

Timing is everything.

You do have me beat there. Not many people can say that, though now that Tom Dowd has started posting here, he could clock us both with the Fastjack Old Man Cane.

Nice!

I'll refine what I said this morning at 3am and was probably too groggy to phrase properly.

I didn't mean to intone that shutting the forums down had anything to do with you being slighted, I meant that from the outside observer it *could* give that impression.

I apologize if it came off like I was being accusational. I didn't mean to.

I'm in the Cult of Tiger Eyes!

No worries. I understand that it could give that impression, so I wanted to be clear on the reasons, and you gave me the chance to explain a bit. It's fine!

Jason H.

Curious. First draft material pretty much sucks. This is like a universal rule. I would never submit my first draft shit beyond my beta readers and my two writing groups. Does CGL have an editor? Or do they utilize the freelance pool to collectively edit material?

It was unfair on my part to diss the first draft, especially since it hasn't been published. I was pissed, but that's not an excuse.

Understandable. Of course, if the writers who re-wrote your material don't get paid, then they'll probably feel really stupid.

I know where he lives. I'll send a team to get it back. The code phrase is "Dudley Do-Right". That's how you'll know the mission was a success.

[EDIT]: Of course, I don't see that Patrick slipped you back shoddy 2nd hand goods until after I offer to help you out.. If you're happy, I call the fixer and cancel the job...

Couple quick facts and then a couple opinions:

It's been suggested that co-mingling funds is common or normal. Please re-read Mind&Pen's posts of just google the word co-mingling. Outside of a sole-propreietorship it always bad. In fact, it is a form of tax fraud, though it very rarely results in jail time. (Hey, the IRS wants to get paid, too and if you're in jail, you're not generating revenue and they can't recoup your tax liability.) If done in the context of a partnership or corporation it is also stealing from the other partners or shareholders. Again, re-read Mind&Pen's post for better details.

Regarding the alleged fraudulent royalties reports. While if had TigerEyes knowingly submitted fraudulent reports she would technically have met the nine common law elements of fraud, someone in her position would be very unlikely to be sued or criminally charged. This is opposed to if IMR/CGL were a publicly traded company governed by Sarbanes Oxley. <Begin opinion:> TigerEyes likely did not quit because she was afraid of being sued or going to jail. All ethics are personal, there is not absolute standard. My personal ethics would tend to hold someone who responded in the way TigerEyes did in high regard.

IANAL and all that, but as stated in previous posts, I co-mingled money at my company and had to work with my accountant and the IRS to make it right. I have also had to thrice report about fraud cases, twice giving sworn depositions. I feel I can intelligently speak to this topic, but your opinion may very.

<Briefly back to fact:> Topps owns the ShadowRun IP and would like to use it to make money. To make money they need to receive loyalty checks from the licensees. <Back to opinion:> If the alleged falsification of royalty figures is true, why would Topps entrust IMR/CGL with the license again?

<Continuing in the opinion vane:> Much of the writer's wars has settled in on whether or not someone is a "good writer," a "hack," a "scab," or a "bitter" and full of "hubris" former writer. As consumers, we're generally more concerned with whether or not the setting and rules will reflect our interpretation of the universe. As a player/former GM that got started with 2nd ed., I love the original world. I love the metaplot, and yeah, though I've never played it, I like Earthdawn tie-ins. Many people will disagree with me. Those people may like AH gone and love what the new stuff will do. I don't know anything about BattleTech and frankly don't care because I have no plans to play it. I really like the 4th ed rules mechanics and I like the the fact that the matrix is actually useable, my commlink is more capable of my iPhone and at least as concealable, and otaku technomancers don't have to be children. I don't like Year of the Comet, GhostWalker, or the complete and utter lack of any NAN love in any shape or form. (Seriously?!? they cover more than half of North America and we've yet to see a sourcebook or more than an tangential mention!?! - sorry, off topic.)

So, who cares what my personal opinions are? The point is I don't want to see Shadowrun go in a new direction. I've never met AH, FT, TE, AH, RB, PT, TD or any anyone else who's left Shadowrun. But, I like what much of what they've done. I want to see Shadowrun return to its 1st and 2nd ed roots. Tom Dowd wrote my three favorite sourcebooks singlehandedly. Keep the improved mechanics and improved matrix. And for goodness sake, no retconning. So, if the current creative team plans to take Shadowrun in a new direction, then yeah, I hope that another company gets the license. If we're risking a new direction anyway, we might as well see it under a management group that's not being sued.

At this point I'd like to stand and thank Bull for offering what sounds like free advice and beg him to do what he can to retain the original feel of the game.

Jason, without giving away any trade secrets, can you comment generally on the direction you see the line going?