redacted because i appearantly got some things wrong again . .

I would be pissed off in that case also. Unfortunately, your comparison logic is way off. Those two situations are completely independent.

I also appearantly need to redact that posting after having had some clarifying words sent my way.

>>>>redacted<<<<


As far as speculating on something else...
Perhaps there are freelancers who believe that they have burned bridges so thoroughly that if CGL fixes the situation that their writing services will no longer be required?

One might speculate that they would prefer to see CGL fail so that they have an opportunity to write for Shadowrun in the future with a different company.

I don't think we need to speculate there, Bob, since I seem to recall AH stating as much publicly here in one of these threads. If I'm wrong there, Bobby, I apologize for mis-speaking your sentiment.

I think there's nothing wrong with AH's posts. Attacking a work or work schedule is not the same as attacking a person.

If people cannot criticize a piece of work or an idea anymore then we're really on the wrong forum.

However since he doesn't have access to the work in question, and would not have been privy to the work schedule either, it does make his claims dubious and of questionable value.

Has he seen the work he is criticizing, though? How does he know it is "hack work"? Other then, of course, the fact
that "Doing writing for pay" automatically makes one a "hack," to use Battletech's Kevin "The Self Proclaimed Hack" Killiany's
words.

Why not wait till you actually see an item before judging it?

Edit: Cardul beat me to it.

Second Edit: I would add, for work to be hack work, doesn't that mean I would have to be a hack?

Note in his statement that the 'hack rush job' conclusion is based, in part, on 'the people you have working on them'.

It is actually an insult directed toward the people doing the work, not the work they're doing, which he hasn't seen yet.

It might not have been his intent, but it is a very poor choice of words.

There was a reason I stayed away from Dumpshock for a few months following my split from CGL in 2008. I knew I was too close to the situation, it was too personal. Being a native New Yorker myself, I wanted to write the Manhattan e-book badly. I had originally pitched it for Corporate Enclaves, but L.A. got the nod over it, and I was pretty psyched that I was getting the opportunity to still write it. So it was a pretty painful process leaving that project because of my disagreements with CGL and it was also painful knowing that other writers were taking it over. And even though I feel they did a good job, I still know it's not the New York City setting I would have written.

So I understand where AH is coming from when he gets defensive about the new writing being done for sections he previously would have been writing. But I also think it's non-productive. The books will come out (hopefully!) and the readers will make their judgments on the final products. Dumpshock posters have never been terribly shy about reviewing the books.

If you ever get the chance to do it I hope you do a better job than I did.

TomD

In an effort to dial back the invective here I'd like to point out that while heated AH's statement is at least partly targeted at the rushed nature of the replacement work.

AH has already done said work and he knows how long it took him, I reckon he has a fair idea how long a facsimile of equivalent quality ought to take even a skilled writer to create. He does not believe quality product can be created given the time constraints such a project must have.

First, that is a cool word!

Second, while insulted by Ancient History's statement as well as some others further back...seriously this is really tame. About the time you see an Admin's boot stickin out my butt with a permaban on me then we will have some down home invectiveness.

As for the quality of the product, yet to be produced. I hope that it blows everyone's socks off. Not to prove the nay sayers wrong but because this is Shadowrun and it deserves nothing but our absolute best effort!

I personally find it amusing that people are calling other people "scabs" as if they were union workers on strike, rather than people who simply quit.

I'm currently considering doing an unofficial fan-book version!

Actually that WAS in there. For every ONE DOLLAR he put in. he took out $147.

Read that again. For every dollar he deposited. he took out one hundred and fourty seven.

Your question about the salary and such has been brought up before. Again. Look at the chart.

For the first four years, he'd taken out $200,000 if we divide that by 4, assuming (( and I don't)) every bit was his salary and what he was owed, that'd put him at $50,000 a year.

Then last year he took out over $526,000. You honestly think they raised his salary by a factor of TEN in one year? Not doubling it. Not tripling it. But going from his previous draws of $50,000 a year to $500,000 in one year? Gimme a break. I know people like to defend people but this dude just went crazy.



Some of that was in there. and it wasn't an anonymous informant. It was one of the owners himself that has put out the information.



Actually it does point out the deposits, and how for every buck he put in he took out about $150. It doesn't state his salary, but I doubt his salary came in $10,000, $20,000, and $30,000 paychecks either.




They know who put out the information. One of the owners did. He's said so here. Openly. he made the charts himself. Your post seems to indicate you didn't look at the charts yourself. You should. It paints (( in red! lol)) a pretty graphic story.

Yes, and as someone who has been around recovering drunks I know they can't get straight without getting away from it. Recovering drug addicts say that they are addicts, that they are still addicted years after they stop. Coleman has a problem if he took so much money out of the company that it is now collapsing, and so does CGL. I don't know what kind of "controls" CGL can put in place that they were unable to implement before. I don't trust that they will properly handle the situation because I'm sure they knew what was going on well before we did. Do you think that the day this broke Randall Bills sat down to read an internet forum and did a spit take? He may have, but not because it was news to him.

I'm not getting in the middle of any of this, mainly cause it's non-productive. But I will take a moment to point out one fallacy here.

Pepsi: Ketjack (The owner in question) has said that he is not the "source". He's said created those graphs and presented them to the other owners and people involved with CGL's management. He's also said that he did not give them to anyone else, nor did he post them online anywhere.

What Cardul and others are referring to is whoever else is actually inside the company continuing to post and pass information out to others.

<shrug>

Either way, it's all just noise for now. *sigh* 3 more weeks, and hopefully it'll be done with.

I'm one of those people who read credits. I have enjoyed AH's contributions to Shadowrun and respect his knowledge and dedication to the setting. I was deeply disappointed when it was announced that his work would not be appearing in future CGL product. I think that speaks very strongly to what type of company CGL is now, what kind of work they will produce and how they plan on treating the game and their freelancers going forward.

I feel deeply sorry to any freelancers currently writing for CGL. I know you must love the game, because you certainly aren't in this for the money. But right now just seems to be the worst time you could be doing what you love. Even the best you can do is going to be tarnished by the scandal and the mess that brought CGL to it's current state. I can't in good conscious look forward to buying your future work if it carries the CGL badge. This isn't about you personally, or even your work. You will not be treated fairly, you must have understood that when you agreed to work for the current CGL. If you had contracts previously and are continuing with the company you must be even more aware of your situation.

It isn't right, but neither is the way CGL does business and treats it's own talent. If these forums seem full of angry people looking to cut you down, it's because we're hurt to see talented and skilled individuals replaced by... a mystery for the most part. I've asked Jason for some names, some samples; and I don't believe his silence is protecting you at all. Keeping quiet only leads people to believe that there is something to keep quiet about. That does you a disservice. There has to be some reason you were chosen to write. Each of you should do yourself a favor and introduce us to your work. Don't let forum trolls defend you by taking pot shots at someone like AH. If you're proud of your work step forward and share some of it with us. If you don't agree with AH, prove him wrong.

Love you too, Mr. Salinger.

Pull out any of the Interstellar Conspiracy books and the section I did is identified in the credits. Or the short fiction I did in the Tech Manual or AToW. Or any of the other stuff I'm credited in. Just not my Eclipse Phase stuff, that isn't published yet.

Sometimes I wonder if he and others ever realize that Shadowrun managed to -- somehow, impossible as it may be to imagine -- exist before they became a fanboys-cum-freelancers.

I mean, I get being angry about not getting paid. I get being angry enough to quit. I even sort get being angry enough to stomp your foot and take advantage of the copyright laws (despite how that definitely puts a kink in you ever getting paid). I can even almost -- almost -- get being angry because other people don't share your anger. What I don't get is being angry about actually getting paid, and I don't get being so outraged that a business might actually be a little on the corrupt side and using that to somehow justify such irrational rage over any and everything under the sun.

At that point it just goes from being pissy and bitter to outright insanity.

None of it was news to him on the day it broke on the Internet. Jen quit before it broke, and she was one of the people involved in conducting the review, which was already completed when she left. Randall has admitted that there were signs and he was not as attentive to them as he should have been.

I'm not sure how them 'knowing what was going on well before we did' has any relevance to anything. I would be concerned if they didn't know what was going on before the public became aware. Do you mean you think Randall was well aware of what was going on prior to the review? Because if you are, that's quite an accusation to put out there and one we haven't heard any evidence of yet.

Jason has mentioned that new company policy requires that multiple owners sign off on any draw from company funds, so the Colemans will no longer be able to make any such draws. They have been cut off.

This very understandable attitude is, I think, part of the reason for CGL paying 6th World Atlas authors in advance; in addition to locking down remaining content before another freelancer decides to do the same thing Ancient did and pull their content.

In the short term at least, I think it would be very good for CGL to continue to pay authors prior to release if they can manage to do so.

Okay, a couple-four things.

I think it fairly obvious to anyone who has been following these threads that Loren L. Coleman would not be in the position he is today without the continued trust and support of Randall Bills on a personal and professional level. This is not a good thing, because while I already know I can't trust Coleman (for taking the money and not paying people), it means to me that I can't trust Bills either, because he of all people was in a position to do something about it...and didn't. You're all welcome to your own opinions of Mr. Bills, that's my take on him.

I've said before that it's not fair to beat Jason up about the fact that he doesn't know anything; he can't reveal anything he doesn't know. However, this doesn't generally explain why he keeps posting things when he honestly doesn't know anything new, and the positive spin on this particular turd doesn't make it any shinier, it just makes Jason sound like a broken record. I honestly get he's doing his job and he thinks that's all that matters. This is where our primary difference of opinion lies: I don't think it is ethical or in the best interests of the game lines to continue under Catalyst.

I do want InMediaRes to lose the license and Shadowrun and BattleTech to go to somebody else. I don't trust Loren or Randall at the helm, most of the truly ethical employees have already left, and the many of the "Shadowrun freelancers" that remain - including Jason - just don't have the chops to continue to produce quality products.

I can say that because I spent weeks arguing with Jason on damn near everything Shadowrun. I got to know many of the new freelancers brought on for new projects. My friends among the freelancers generally kept me appraised of events - because unlike Jason, I took and continue to take significant pains to keep in touch with people. Lack of communication was another one of the little things we argued about.

If I sound a little angrier and more bitter than the last time I made a big post about how we shouldn't call each other names, it's because I am. See, I've read the new draft Jason put together for Corp Guide - four different people have e-mailed me a copy of it. I've read it and even for a first draft pumped out in a couple of weeks it is shit. I've had reservations about how well Jason "got" Shadowrun before, but take my word for it shadowkids, this is not good. I'm not saying it's not good in comparison to my draft which it's supposed to replace, I mean this is a bad draft period. No freelancer should have turned in a draft that bloody boring, and I hope - though I suspect he won't - that Jason would strip it down to brass tacks and try again.

I suspect he won't, because during our relatively brief professional acquaintance, I had to fight Jason over damn near everything to get it done right rather than just fast. There were serious arguments over fixing errors introduced by the proofers into PACKS when they made their edits! Which is meaningless now, since PACKS is being rewritten, but I want to provide it as an example of the kind of situation this is and Jason's attitude towards the game.

Jason loves the game. He wants to see it keep going. I just don't think he's willing to do it right.

i disagree. if those freelancers wish to stand in front of the gun, and risk getting shot, they can do so. but quite frankly, we've already seen a number of people essentially announce that in their opinion, if it isn't a specific author it sucks (in most cases i've noticed them saying this about ancient history; that is, we've seen people already declare that anyone who isn't ancient history cannot possibly produce good material, not that ancient history cannot produce good material).

as i've said quite a ways back (i think it was one or two thread restarts back), we don't know who's writing this. we don't know how good they are at what they do. heck, we don't even know if they submitted a draft to Jason back when they were first looking at people to write those sections (in which case, much of the research could have already been done, which would *dramatically* cut down on the writing time i should think). but that doesn't stop people from attacking the freelancers that have been brought in to rewrite sections of books. the only thing i would expect to see if we had their names is that some people would feel the need to attack those freelancers directly. it's a real shame about how that works, but unfortunately, that's how it works.

now i'm not saying that the freelancers that are no longer writing for CGL would not have done an excellent job of it (indeed, in at least the case of ancient history, *had* already done an excellent job i expect). but i don't think it's fair to assume that nobody else could possibly have done a good job of it, and i don't think it's fair to assume that the people who are writing it now will do a bad job of it, whether or not we've seen their work. as has been pointed out, once upon a time, even the best authors and freelancers who have worked on shadowrun were at some point or another complete unknowns.

I think you really need to reconsider the underlined part of this statement. The average Catalyst employee is not going to have involvement in what LLC did. Anyone employed would be weighing the difficulties they're going to have to face as an employee with Catalyst in trouble vs. finding a job in the current economy.

Those who have quit have not done so solely based on knowledge of the company's financial situation. All of them appear to have additional concerns that relate to them individually and factored into their decision.

Seems like at least someone gets his check from CGL every week...

In my little ethical universe, I do not consider it right to continue to work for dishonest people. I'm more than aware that this is solely my opinion, and I should certainly hope that the remaining employees believe they are ethically correct to continue working there. Otherwise, that's jut fucked up.

[/edit]Besides, as far as I know, the only real employees left are Jason Hardy and Matt Heerdt. Randall and Tara Bills, et al. are also owners of the company.

That's contrary to what I've read. The posts I saw said pretty much the oppisite. That he DID make the graphs and had passed them, and that they ended up online. Then later verified that they were indeed the graphs he had made, and claimed he should know because he had the information to do so.

But ok. I'll admit this thread is 100s of pages long and has been going for weeks. I'm not digging back that far.

The fact of the matter is that they will be known eventually. At some point those books will be printed and then the names will be out there. There is no reason to hide right now and I thank those of you who have and who are going to share by pointing the community here to your work. I'd love it if Jason would let us know who is handling what sections of what, or allow folks to say for themselves, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Yep, that's me! Now you'll have to excuse me as I go wax my moustache and find some damsel to tie to a railroad track.

People are allowed to say what they want. I've not given out names because frankly I've seen the people writing the sections be called various names and insulted in other ways, and I have no desire to expose them to more of that. If they want to step forward themselves, that's their prerogative.

Jason H.

Gotta say I don't blame Jason a bit on this.

Some people here have been tossing some names at the 'new crop' of freelancers like they're scabs crossing a picket line or something.

So, I guess the question of what Ancient History actually meant has been fully stated.

Strangely, I am neither vexed by his response or pleased that my interpretation was correct. Only one word comes to mind...


h u b r i s

Plus Herb Beas, Jason Schmetzer and the new bookkeeper. Possibly Brent Evans.

Herb I thought was also an owner. Not familiar with Jason Schmetzer. Forgot about Brent.


I might have said "rage," but I wear my sins on my sleeve.

I think he meant LLC. At least I took it that way. It make me laugh.

I recall hearing about Jen Harding leaving afterward, but that may have only been when she posted here and well after the fact. I seem to recall she was involved in conducting the review, but I don't recall ever hearing that it was completed. I do recall her leaving after being asked to do some rather unethical things by Mr. Bills.



Being aware of wrong doing and choosing not to act is very relevant in this situation. If Mr. Bills was in a position to know and turned a blind eye because Mr. Coleman was his friend, then he allowed the present situation to happen and bears part of the responsibility for the present situation. I'm also sure that he knew what was going on prior to the review as they initiated a review. We aren't talking about an office full of people here, CGL wasn't that big when it still had most of it's workforce and talent pool. In that environment you are either completely out of touch with no real power to do anything, or you are aware to some extent of everything because you are serving so many functions. Which one do you think Bills was?



I don't recall the specifics of those controls being disclosed here, only a mention that controls were in place that caused the cutting of checks to take thirteen hours at one session. While I hope that the controls in place are strong, but at this point it's equivalent to pad locking the barn after someone has stolen everything but the walls.

Jen, has already stated twice that Randall never asked her to cook the books.

If memory serves she told them that she'd been told to lie to Topps on paper about money items, when she went to the other guy to tell him. The responce was. "If you can't do what you're told. You can leave" (( not word for word but paraphrased)

Which is the same thing as saying "Do what you're told or you're fired"

You should be, heck of a writer, keeps BattleCorps afloat, fills out a pair of jeans nicely(according to Phaedra).

And here I was thinking "Quality". Corp Guide is pretty important to the game, we need a refresh of the big players. Putting something like that in the hands of folks that are seeing their first time writing for Shadowrun would be a terrible idea without a strong vision and understanding of the game and it's history backing them up. When I think of those two things I think of AH.

Instead we have to wonder who wrote the draft that AH read. Most other operations are proud of who they have working for them. I fully understand the fear of being attacked and ridiculed in a hostile environment, but just imagine what it's going to be like once those books come out. If they have a CGL badge on the cover everyone on the first page is going to be subjected to serious scrutiny and much of it will be bias. Some of you already have. Whatever the rest of the pages hold will have to stand up to whatever was pulled by the freelancers that came before. That's a tough hurdle, especially if we never get to see the originals.

And yet, remarkably, there were tons of fantastic sourcebooks produced and published long before he even thought about writing a single word. How could that possibly be?


And it's equally shocking that someone who is so pissy and bitter at the company that he bitches about getting paid would find a replacement for his work 'lacking.' Truly, utterly, and completely shocking.

The review was completed. In the process of preparing information for Topps to review, she says she was asked by LLC to produce information for that review which she believed was unethical. She complained to Randall, who, by her account stated that she would need to work with LLC or quit. She decided to quit at that point. She has also asserted that she does not feel that Randall asked her to do anything unethical.




It's my understanding that Bills, up until recently, was focused on the development side. He was the line manager for Battletech for a while, before they hired someone else to take over those duties. Seeing signs that something is wrong and being aware that something is wrong are two different things. As they say, hind sight is 20/20. I believe he did express some regret in the message to freelancers about not realizing something was up sooner.



Obviously he would have some sort of suspicions in order to start a review. Was he fully aware of what was going on as the draws were happening? We have no evidence of that.



Serving multiple roles in a small company is very common. The downside is that it makes it a lot harder to focus on any one aspect of what you're doing, making it a lot easier to miss big picture stuff if it's not happening right in front of you. Yes, it was a bit selfish of him to focus more of his time on the more fun aspects of the company, creating the content. It clearly had an impact in how the company's finances were managed, or apparently, weren't managed. If he had been spending that time as the book keeper of fiscal officer, then I would agree that he should be just as responsible, but that's not the role he took on in the company.



That's the mention or one following it that I'm referring to. Jason said was taking 13 hours because of the number of checks and because multiple owners had to review and sign off on each check.

I am generally pissy and critical. I was not pissy about being paid, I was simply very clear about my concerns on the matter. After all, I still cashed the check.

You don't have to wonder. Bobby already said who wrote it. It was me.

Jason H.

Yeah, but the recent stuff has been fantastic. It would be a shame to see the quality of Shadowrun books drop because of this situation, and that's what I'm afraid is happening. If you can honestly say that removing AH from the freelancer pool will equate to an impovement in quality, then we have two very different ideas of what quality is.



Right, because it's all about the money. I'm sure there is a little pride mixed up in this, but I think Ah has earned that. he does good work. Jason is turning away good work and hiring someone else to do it. Do it better? Who can say?

Her statement was "work with Loren or quit". That's not a order to do everything that someone tells you to do. To work with someone you don't have to agree with them. She chose at that point to quit, so we do not know if additional push back on Loren's requests would have resulted in a direct threat of firing. She has stated though, in no uncertain terms, that Randall did not ask her to do anything unethical.