It does? I thought it translated to wait and see what happens in 3 weeks, because that fate is out of our direct control.

By my calendar, the only new material that has been released since this news broke and the freelancers left is the FAQ, which AH helped with. As such, we have no (legal) gauge on the future of the material. Thus we wait and see. Maybe someone every bit as good as AH will emerge, maybe it will become boring and pedantic. I don't know, you don't know. And quality is 100% subjective anyways.

2 other things, as I pick and choose my battles carefully:

1) there are not hundreds of thousands of RPG's out there. If anything, there are hundreds active, thousands in the history of the genre. While a ton of creatives enjoy this hobby and are influenced by it, do not think of it as bigger than it is.

2) In my group, no one besides myself has bought more than the core book of Shadowrun, 4th. Not every group involves 4-5 people buying every single book in the line. Take that as you will, but again, don't over-stretch the reach of the hobby.

Confusion is understandable, it was in response to Jedi suggesting that some folks response will be to pirate material rather then buy it because of these events as some kind of moral high road. It's not a position I think he was advocating and he's already edited his own post to remove the effect, but the irony of it was not lost on me. I get and support people wanting to vote with their money that's fair and my only request is they judge the actual books when they come out, not the fracas, because despite what they might think not buying books at the FLGS isn't going to hurt the Colemans or if it does it will only be by the splatter affect.

So for the record, I'm not going to undermine the efforts of people wanting to do a boycott, only this notion that they somehow represent a majority here or even that the boycott would have the intended effect. What I think we can all agree on is that stealing books is not an acceptable response to disagreements witht he company fair enough?

But that's like saying we should play Russian Roulette because maybe we won't end up dead.

When we have the perfectly viable alternative of not playing or of at least playing a much less risky game with much lower stakes.

Yes, because this is a matter of life and death.

I'm saying the decisions are out of our hands. We can support people we like -- Elissa Carey is one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life, and I wish I could remember Rat's real name so I could give her all the props in the world. But at this point, the people who have a stake in this have made said stake. That part is done. for us, as consumers, our stake is in taking the new product and evaluating it on its merits. To not do so is to insult the new talent. You are fully entitled to take issue with Jason's decisions (as long as you don't attack him as a person), or being worried about the future of the game. But at this moment, right now, the only inkling we have of direction is either hearsay or the personal comments of individuals with a stake in the fight. And with that you must take into account bias.

I have my beliefs on where this is all going. You can probably glean them from posts I've made in the past, if I register on the radar enough to be remembered. But right here, right now, I'm saying that we each must make a choice on our future with this game.. And it is disingenuous and unfair to make it based on incomplete information. That is why I'm waiting to get more information, and that means waiting until we learn the outcome of the license renewal. And through this whole endeavor, I wish no ill on anyone; I wish no one to lose their house, no one to lose their job, no one to be punished unjustly. A game, a source of entertainment, isn't worth that. If Loren did do something illegal, then he shall be punished when the evidence supports that. Until then? I'm going to wait and see. You're free to actively try to destroy the company. Or defend it. Or not give a damn. It's no skin off my back, I just want people to be educated, and see things from as objective a position as possible.

I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying that we should gamble that a new company will start up (fast too), hire AH to contribute what he has, ditch what Jason has written (regardless of the quality)?

vs

Gamble that Jason will write something decent vs what AH wrote?

No but it is a binary situation. We will either get Jason's work which we must hope is good or Bobby's which is good.



Alternatively we can demand the old product. To not do so is to insult the old talent.

Wait and see isn't good enough, trust me isn't good enough.

Jason doesn't have a long enough track record for me to swallow that.

Now say for a second that Adam could be convinced to come down off the fence and look at both drafts and render an opinion I'd be more than happy with that.

Or ideally, Jason apologizes to Bobby and pays him and Bobby chooses to be willing to accept some up front cash for the good of the game.

(Secretly I'm a bit disappointed that he cashed the cheque for Vice. His current stated goal is to see Catalyst go under so he can sell his drafts to the next company. Forcing them to destroy stock they've already printed would have been very SR)

Bottom line, we don't have to take anything from Catalyst.

One other thing: Everyone is seeing this in complete black and white. Complete speculation here, but how would people react if, say, whatever new company that starts up and acquires the Shadowrun license hires Jason? This has happened in the past, after all -- Wizkids hired Mike Mulvahill and FanPro hired Robert Boyle, Adam Jury, and Randall Bills when they founded FanPro, LLC after FASA broke up (if I have my history correct). It isn't directly analogous, but it still sets a precedent. If the hypothetical new company did something akin to that, then you'd have to separate the bad blood directed at the owners from the bad blood directed at the line developers. This is why I'm trying to look at biases such as I am, although I would never presume to speak for how someone else would react in a situation such as this.

It actually surprises me how a game so saturated in shades of gray can generate so many people arguing from a pure black or white perspective.

DAMMIT MAN, we're on the internet. If we can't argue and speculate over stupid things, what's the point? Now shaddup and go find a good debate club with reasonable people for these ludicrous ideas of yours! I mean, sheesh, next thing you'll be telling me that I shouldn't be falling in love with Tiger Eyes for garnet belly button rings! I mean... oooh, glitter....

Umm, yes?

There is nothing wrong with Catalyst. It's a perfectly viable, profitable company with a number of products ready to go to print.

All the IP belongs to Topps in the long run so how hard would it be for someone with a bit of cash to ride in, buy the licence and start shipping product that is ready to print if only you could afford to pay a printer?

With the caveat that I am willing to have an independent arbiter look at both drafts and make an informed decision about which to go with.

To quote a guilty pleasure of mine: "I knew you'd say that." See above. (Bare with me, folks, it's been a long time since I've done this, I promise this will be the only time.)





And tell me: How much editorial is present in the old product? I've heard 4th lauded so much around here (justly), but it isn't like items are written once and then ignored. As much as I sense.. tension between Bobby and Jason, the fact remains that they were a writer/editor team, for better or worse. Rarely do you see writing that has only been touched by one mind in a vacuum, and rarer still is it good. I know for a fact that as a writer, I need to find one hell of an editor who can be HONEST with me, whether I like it or not. This person will not be a friend except in the ideal situation; rather, they will be a partner, and one I hope is honest enough with me to tell me what is good and bad, and which I can bounce ideas off of.

No writing in Shadowrun is done in the singular.



How does one prove themselves, then?



Who says that Adam is on any fence? Not trying to even begin to judge what is going through his mind, but it -appears- to me that he has decided to not air his thoughts in public. He has that right, and we must respect it. But I'm willing to bet that he has a more complete picture of the facts than either you or I do. And I, for one, am fine with that. Hence why I'm waiting to see what happens.



Anything personal between Jason and Bobby is their business, not mine. However, Bobby has stated that he has cashed the check, and is hoping it doesn't bounce. If CGL goes down in flames, it becomes more likely that it will. Keep that in mind, and maybe you'll see another reason why I'm watching to see what happens.



.... Wait... What the... You just said you knew he cashed... but... wa... Oh man.

Fine. I'll just say Fantasy =/= reality. I hate corporate espionage, for the record.



Correct. You also shouldn't pre-judge them, is all I'm saying.

Errr hold on, maybe I'm missing something but it was Bobby not Jason who ultimately decided to not have his work published, his actions may have been more then justified but It was he that ultimately hit the kill switch. There were precipitous events before hand but basically Czich your requesting the company woo and author who terminated his contracts as a necessity for your continued patronage. You are basically asking them to take an option that isn't viable.

Errr hold on, maybe I'm missing something but it was Bobby not Jason who ultimately decided to not have his work published, his actions may have been more then justified but It was he that ultimately hit the kill switch. There were precipitous events before hand but basically Czich your requesting the company woo and author who terminated his contracts as a necessity for your continued patronage. You are basically asking them to take an option that isn't viable.

If he's on the side of the angels and is a good writer? Cool.

There has been, unsubstantiated, speculation elsewhere that Jason intends to print limited runs of upcoming products with his name on them before the licence expires. These products will then be IP that is set in copyright stone which will give him a much better bargaining position with any new licensee.

This is a bit like Schroedinger's Cat. We've no idea whether or not Jason is a good guy or a good author but if we wait and see it will be too late to do anything about it.

[edit]

I meant pay him for Sixth World Almanac which he has not been paid for as he terminated his contracts.

If I don't pre-judge them negatively, I end up pre-judging them positively.

I'd much rather have an informed third party make a post-judgement in advance.

Intellectual Property =/= ( != ? ) transference of copyright.

If a new company started up, they would have to buy the rights to all the previously printed material (such as Catalyst did with FanPro), buy the backstock, and re-negotiate contracts with all the freelancers. And this is just the start. coming from someone who is not trained in business and IP law. Now opening up my Runner's Companion (nearest book I have on hand), I count 37 non-unique names. That's a lot of contract negotiation for a brand new, unproven company! And yet, here we are.

The biggest risk of a new company is that we suddenly get SR, 5th. As writing a new edition is usually a 1-2 year process, that would be a year or two where no one is making any money (including the big kahuna, Topps). During that time Shadowrun may (MAY) fall out of the gaming consciousness.

It's not such an easy position to advocate for, now is it?

Knowledge is power, man. The world ain't black and white.

Edit: Also, I remembered Rat's name whilst reading through the ToC for Runner's Companion. Yay! I hope she is doing well.

Let me understand this... screw the man who is simply a human being and annoyed one of your favorite authors because someone, somewhere, on the internet came up with some random assed speculation about him so we should buy it as the gospel and ruin the man's chances to even attempt to prove himself?

Schroedinger's Cat, my foot, I think you're listening to the Cheshire one. That's a brutal thing to do to person.

As I understand it all the IP belongs to Topps. Catalyst merely licences it. Anything they or their contracted employees add to the cannon becomes the property of Topps to re-licence as they see fit.

Take a chill pill dude.

I didn't say Jason is right or wrong or that Bobby is right or wrong.

In the long run one is going to be righter than the other.

I'd rather know now which it is so that I may make an informed decision as to how to proceed.

Lurker, all options are viable. They are just conditional.


Crizh, if we are going to continue this discussion, can we leave the labels out of it? No one is an angel in this world, so holding anyone to that standard is ultimately useless. As I said, we all have our personal opinions and biases about people, but they are best left out of a debate. As for the speculation you listed... It would be highly illegal for him to put his personal name on anything copyrighted. Catalyst is one thing (and the contracts are probably written so that published material becomes the property of Catalyst), but if the company were to do limited print runs, wouldn't that imply the authors would need to be paid for their work?

If I may be personal for a moment, it sounds like you've decided Jason is the only face of Catalyst, and as such the only place to direct your attacks. It's as if he is going out like Baghdad Bob and saying "everything is fine, move along!" But by going after Jason, all you are doing is committing what effectively amounts to libel, and I feel that is wrong. Attack the company if you wish, speak your opinion if you wish, but don't accuse people without facts to back it up. Jason is our conduit into the company, yes, but don't make everything a case of us versus him. Bobby may have legitimate issues. We don't have anything to go off of past the quality of the product we have seen.

You're making this more complex than it actually is. When the licensee (Catalyst) pays for material, the copyright for it transfers to Topps. The entire lump of material is what is licensed out, not individual bits and pieces.

Thank you for the clarification, Adam.

So how were people able to withhold copyright, then? It was because they weren't paid? (I'm asking honestly, copyright law has always been a hobby of mine, and I always want to learn more about it.)

Anyone wishing to sample what I have written for Shadowrun can look at the following places:

The story "Unmaking the Man"
"Unholy Alliances" in Loose Alliances (p. 138)
The novel Drops of Corruption
The short story "Gaia's Heart" in SR4A (p. 56)
The short story "Sunshine Over Your Shoulder" in Seattle 2072 (p. 138).

Additionally, while it's harder to suss out my particular contributions in these books, I edited at least a part of the following sourcebooks:
Augmentation, Corporate Enclaves, Dusk: Dawn of the Artifacts 1, Feral Cities, Runner Havens, Street Magic, System Failure, Unwired, and Vice. I also have significant forthcoming material that was assigned to me before I became line developer, including editing Darkest Hour: Dawn of the Artifacts 3, writing about 20k words of the Sixth World Almanac, a story called "Trade Secrets" in the upcoming Spells & Chrome anthology, and writing a second Shadowrun novel, Hell on Water.

In short, before becoming line developer, I had written nearly 200,000 words for Shadowrun and edited hundreds of thousands more.

Jason H.

Now you are just deliberately ignoring what I've said.



Did you catch that?

I did not label anybody as an angel or otherwise. I flat out stated that when this works itself out in the wash if Jason turns out to be exactly what he appears to be, a decent guy making the best of a shit sandwich, then I'm right behind him.



He will be one of the principal authors of a potential work that will have an ISBN and be an inviolate part of cannon. All the authors would have to be paid, and have been as far as I know.

Doing so would have the dual effect of preventing a version of the work containing Bobby's original material ever seeing print and giving Jason a much better chance of getting hired by a new licensee.




When you are starting to just ignore huge swathes of what I say and alter the rest to suit your position it has become somewhat more than a moment.

When you start accusing me of libel you're on the verge of joining Doc Funk and Lurker in the ignore pile.

I haven't attacked Jason.

I have repeatedly stated that I don't know whether Jason and his material are going to be good for Shadowrun but if we wait and see we will have one of two outcomes.

1: Bobby's material is lost forever and Jason's is an adequate replacement.

2: Bobby's material is lost forever and Jason's blows in the sort of way that still causes German SR fans to spit when you say Fanpro.

You'll notice that neither of these two options includes Bobby's material seeing print.

[ninja-edit]

Thanks for the list Jason, I shall give those sources a look.

You have to admit, however, Bobby's kneejerk critique may be biased but it is understandable that some of us are concerned that rushing out replacement text that might be substandard might not be as good for the game as biting the bullet and trying harder to resolve things with him.

Just to be perfectly clear, when I terminated my contracts that was included material in Corporate Guide. Sixth World Almanac, Attitude. Runner's Toolkit, an ebook you've never heard about, and something tying in to Dawn of the Artifacts (which doesn't count my substantial uncredited editing and proofing work on various and sundry things). I'm not holding those drafts and materials for ransom in the hopes of getting paid, I've withdrawn them entirely. Jason or Randall isn't going to come to me with a check and ask to use them, and I'm not going to go beg them to use them. Frankly, at this point, and largely due to their conduct I will never going to work with Jason Hardy (or David A. Hill, Jr.) ever again - and they probably have very similar attitudes about me at this point.

[/edit]My continued hope is that CGL loses the license and I can try to sell my drafts to the next company that gets the license (if there is a next company). Naturally, if Jason gets a book out first, that's not going to happen. Which is the genesis for Frank's statement on another forum.

You can't blame a guy for hoping that everyone might suddenly come to their senses....

Maybe I'll wake up one morning and there you are in the shower and it was all a horrible dream.

Correct.

And the situation that happen is as such: someone withholds copyright, which means that they basically get put on the top of the "to pay" list ... which means that anyone else who is owed money on that project has incentive to also withhold copyright, so not to fall to the bottom of the payment ladder. This is why, in the occurrences when it happens, you'll find that people appear to be withholding copyright in batches -- nobody wants to be on the bottom of the payment ladder.

Oh, and I somehow forgot about another product I wrote: Battlerun, the only Shadowrun-related product to be nominated for an ENnie in 2009.

Jason H.

I apologize if I'm not taking everything you are saying in kind. I should be, but I'm also typing fast.

My logic hinges on this being a binary:



This is begging the question: 'I'm okay with him if he's a good writer and on the side of good.' And if he's not, well... It isn't labeling him as an angel or a devil, but it is invoking the comparison. Language is all about conveying images and ideas, and one does not need to state words to convey those thoughts.

Also, there is no such thing as inviolate canon. Lucas has proven this. Whoever writes the story makes the rules, and through the history of Shadowrun "false" information has been inserted into the canon. Hell, the entire beginning of SoNA effectively de-canonized the guides to the Native American Nations, at least by my reading. I am not going to presume what will come about as a result of any work currently in development getting published, in terms of reception and retention, but I do know that it will result in a legally binding contract to pay those involved in its creation. Destroying Catalyst might lead to that outcome not occurring.

I also highly doubt either Bobby or Jason's material will be lost forever.

Ah, now that's a quality piece of prose.

Much better than that silly PC Dragons thing...

Does this continual font of venom serve any further purpose? I am quite tired of my fellow dumpshockers spewing vitriol and anger, I just want my favorite game to survive, nay thrive, in the adversity of this situation. This game, by its very nature, caters to a semi underground motif.

Same thing I said earlier but it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

I loved Battlerun. It was funny as hell, and I personally believe you can't have dark, depressing stories without at least some touch of humor.

I also still fail to see most of the either/or information being presented. I mean.. what if Jason gets his book out in time (which means it'd have to go to print in the next 3 weeks, which also involves the owners cutting checks if the previous description of checks and balances is accurate), and then the ownership changes hands, and then Bobby sells his materials to the new owners, who then take it and publish it, either in its original form or inserted into other material? Then doesn't everyone win? (in this specific case of two personalities having a spat, I mean. )

Not allowed in Dystopia.

Damn! And here I was thinking dystopias were cautionary tales, and the best ones always had a glimmer of hope buried somewhere deep in them. Or maybe I'm thinking of diasporas? Either way, I miss Fading Suns.

I think the scenario crizh is referring to is that if CGL publishes a Sixth World Almanac (for example) without Bobby's material before shutting down, no company that inherits the license is going to turn around a publish another SWA-like tome any time in the near future. Thus Bobby's material would be lost (to the official canon anyway).

If Jason did somehow miraculously get a book to print, my drafts would no longer have a place. So I would release them for free.

I was about to say that, whilst that last exchange might have been a little heated, I don't recall descending into vitriol.

Then I recall that I can only see about two thirds of the thread.

That Doc Funk is a wise, wise man.

But that's the fallacy. Unless the material is drastically different (which I don't think it would be as Jason probably gave Bobby the notes on what he was contracted to write, but that is conjecture on my part), then it isn't all that hard to create a "volume 2" or a supplementary guide, or even publish Bobby's content as a web supplement. Or hell, you could even go the AEG route and release something akin to Oriental Adventures / Rokugan... Now there, THERE was a clusterfuck.

Man, it's hard to convince people that things really aren't so dire, as long as everyone is able to make a living (which is my only vested stake in this, mind you. I don't want to see anyone starve.)

Funk hasn't posted since #547, at 3:28 PM CST. It's much better, IMO, to just ignore someone by not responding to them than to hit some magical "don't make their posts appear" button. Censoring discussion like that does far more harm than good.

I can't comment on whether it is or is not drastically different.

It sure annoyed Bobby when he read it but that's all we have to go on.

Which was kinda my point.

Bobby also has an admitted bias. Which is my point.

I think I'm done, btw. Sorry, everyone, for hijacking the thread for so long.

I won't comment on the content of this thread, but whatever it is, this thread keeps it out of others. People are going to talk about this, so we might as well provide them a dedicated space to discuss it.

Having said that, tho, I'd say its almost time for a re-spawn...

It's an experiment for the time being. I'm finding that not seeing the deliberate provocation and outright hostility allows one a measure of calm that makes participation easier.

Even if you don't respond the emotions leak through into other posts and threads. Threefold return and all that.

The gist filters through other peoples replies but the initial reaction is blunted.

YMMV, like I say I'm just trying it out.

[edit]



No doubt, hence why my mind is as yet not made up.

One quick point of order: The Almanac was already in editing when I was hired, so I didn't give notes to any of the writers--it was past that stage. Not sure if that really matters, but I thought I'd say it anyway.

Jason H.

Here's the point that Doc keeps missing.

We at Dumpshock have a huge influence on the way Shadowrun goes. Most (all?) of the 4.0-4.5 changes were things we bitched about here on Dumpshock. I know that some of my personal battles with Synner and some of the other CGL employees led directly to new errata being released. I also know that Dumpshock claims over 11,000 members. Assuming that less than half of them still posts, knows about the situation, and agrees to boycott CGL, that's still 5,000 books that didn't get bought. Even with a large print run, that's a huge number of books to have sitting in a warehouse.

This whole dilemma will probably do a better job at introducing players to the field of intra-corp intruiges than the splatbooks we got so far on this topic.

my local game stores carry little to no Shadowrun, and one store is boycotting it outright.

The qualifier was All. my local stores carry little to no Shadowrun either, and the next town over's upset over the situation. That's where the leverage is.. but you aren't going to get the entirety of the gaming industry together to flex that muscle. Distributors? Sure. Writers? Most definitely. Creditors? They're first in line. But at the store or individual level, pressure is hard to exert unless you fall into those categories.

Yeah, I quite agree... All these multiple pages makes it hard to track down all of the reported posts...

I that case we'll cap it at 600 posts.

Please feel free to continue the discussion in CGL Speculation #7.