Doc Chase
Dec 20 2010, 09:15 PM
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 20 2010, 09:06 PM)
Ok, so what would be possible reasons that make Atzlan go to war with Amazonia?
You can take the Epileptic Tree out of the setting, but still have them fighting a 'defensive' war by suckering Amazonia into making a sanctioned strike on their facilities. They want land, or telesma, or minerals in the Amazon Basin, but they can't just go and
take them. They have to have justification.
There has to be something of enough worth in the Basin to commit
trillions of nuyen in combined arms, training, and coordinated ritual magic to take it. Minerals are one. Telesma another. Fresh water a very possible third. The rainforest is powerful enough on its own to regrow at an amazing rate, enough to overgrow settlements. Ancient Mesoamerican power sites may have something to do with it.
That all being said, what do we think it is? I think it's a combination of all the three. The Basin has untapped power in it. Based off the Azzies ideology and their Path of the Sun, regaining the old power sites to make into
teocalli may not be out of the realm of possibility.
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 09:18 PM
Yeah, I get why Aztlan would want the basin.
But they have to want it bad enough to try and wipe out Amazonia, or at least large chunks of it, and to go up agaisnt A Great Dragon and his friends (There are 3 Dragons involved in Amazonia.. Though they might not all be Greats)
That's a serious War. And maybe that is AZT's final plan down the line. AZT is kind of a weird place, they're run by a pair of Corrupted Great Dragons, so who knows how crazy they're willing to get.
The question remains, why is Amazonia fighting a siege on a city that is
a) completely out of their comfort zone
b) along incredibly narrow, easily destroyed supply lines
c) of no strategic interest to them
Now, if you make Bogota the central military hub for AZT in the south, and they're doing combat missions into the heart of the Basin. I guess that's a bit better. I think I see it going like this:
Azt has major hunting/retreival operations going on out of Bogota. It's fairly safe for them. It's a major airport.
They hire Mercenaries and Big Game hunters to go into Amazonia and bring back magical lucre. Naga hides, Giant Spider poison sacs, what ever. They also do Dune like "lumber runs" where they have special LAVS. They fly in, clear a section of forest, and fly back out. They then turn around and use that wood for "Authentic Amazon Forest Furniture™" or some such crap.
The Amazonians are none too pleased, but they're facing a REAL war in Venezuela. With tanks, massive troop movements, etc. So they've got mostly guerrila and merc units that are based from forward camps in the Jungle. Rules of Engagement for the Mercs are seriously restricted from the Amazonian side.
The Amazonians are running small guerilla units into the mountains and trying to attack Bogota.
That could work...
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 09:24 PM
Ancient Power Sites
Magical Ingredients and components for making Foci
Minerals
//warning delving into Earthdawn cross over crap//
Maybe the Amazon is a source of True Wood? and possibly True Water?
It's possible that deep inside the Basin are things AZT knows about that their Great Dragons want?
It's possible that the whole war is a power-play between the 5 Great Dragons involved in this thing?
The Horrors are coming back, perhaps theres resources in the Amazon Basin needed for 'something'
This all kind of fits into the Power-Sites idea, actually.
//end of Earthdawn Cross over crap//
Doc Chase
Dec 20 2010, 09:33 PM
Aztlan has proved they can take down dragons. What if Amazonia's greats draw their power from the Basin?
Take the basin, take the dragons - take the country?
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 09:42 PM
That's certainly acceptable motivation for Aztlan.
It's especially good if Amazonia doesn't know that's what's going on.
That still doesn't make Bogota worth anything, other than a place you want to cordon off if you're Amazonia.
Doc Chase
Dec 20 2010, 09:48 PM
It would make sense to take it as a staging point, as you said. Use the airport to get heavy materiel into the Basin as forces push forward. You never want to put all your eggs in one basket, so take Bogota, launch from Maracaibo, and send the really heavy stuff into Caracas.
Given Amazonia's guerilla warfare tactics, it would make sense for them to infiltrate the city and do what they can to disrupt the Azzie resupply - which would create theatres in all those hotspots.
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 09:55 PM
Yes, but Bogota looks more like an Israeli city. Constant threat of a terrorist attack, but not say a combat war zone. A Heavy AZT military presence, curfew, constant 'terrorist' attacks by Amazonian guerilla forces. Tons of Shadowrun work. You've got Mercs from the Amazonian side being hired to run operations against the Azt forces doing incursions into the Basin.
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 09:56 PM
Caracas is managing to stay a Free City because of the Corporate Court? AZT has been warned that the Omega Order on them can be reinstated if they try and take Caracas?
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 20 2010, 10:05 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 20 2010, 06:42 PM)
That's certainly acceptable motivation for Aztlan.
It's especially good if Amazonia doesn't know that's what's going on.
That still doesn't make Bogota worth anything, other than a place you want to cordon off if you're Amazonia.
I don't know, that part of War!, at least how I read it, makes sense to me.
Bogotá and some 100 kilometers to the east and west along the Cordilleras are a free-demilitarized zone that neither Aztlan nor Amazonia might have forces in it.
After the cease-fire, Aztlan began regrouping for a major final strike to take control of the Amazonian Basin (for whatever reasons) when Yucatán and later on Ghostwalker happened. They decided to aircrop the forest with Sangre Del Diablo to prevent Amazonia of sending ground troops through the jungle (because that is the only truly low-profile way of sending guerrilla troops to a city on top of a mountain surrounded by jungle.
Aztlan is not fighting to take over Bogotá, I mean, not only for Bogotá. Bogotá is just the tip of the blade. A ressuply base for whatever they want in the Basin (telesma, power sites, minerals, water, whatever).
Anyway, how are we going to do this? Google docs?
Doc Chase
Dec 20 2010, 10:06 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 20 2010, 09:56 PM)
Caracas is managing to stay a Free City because of the Corporate Court? AZT has been warned that the Omega Order on them can be reinstated if they try and take Caracas?
Yes. Bogota, if I recall, had no such protection from the UN and the Court when Caracas became a Free City. They have a corporate presence there, obviously, but Aztlan itself cannot move in to take it over or it risks a second Operation Reciprocity.
When Ghost Cartels ran its course, AZT had the backing of the UN and Interpol and primarily targeted Rivieros and KondOrchid, who didn't have the power to resist a AAA-rated corp. This leaves Caracas ripe for a shadow war between the Amazonians and the Azzies, though by 2073 the UN may have been bought off enough that AZT can move in. If I remember right, S-K did that with Berlin.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 20 2010, 10:08 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 20 2010, 06:56 PM)
Caracas is managing to stay a Free City because of the Corporate Court? AZT has been warned that the Omega Order on them can be reinstated if they try and take Caracas?
Possibly. Caracas is far away from Bogotá and whatever recognized borders of Aztlan anyway(although it would be a better ressuply stage for operations inside the Basin), at least with Bogotá, they can make a claim of disputed territory with Amazonia.
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 10:11 PM
I only have Google Maps to look at, and I've never been to Bogota. That being said.
if Azt was going to throw man eating trees as a way to distract Amazonia. They would put them in the Amazon basin, some 60 km South East of Bogota, on the other side of the Andes. Really, It wasn't necessary. A couple of Garrisons with modern equipment could hold Bogota indefinitely from an Amazonian army. As long as said Army didn't have a Dragon. Troops with bad equipment and Paracritters do not fair well in Mountainous country. Especially when they're native to a jungle.
I think that Bogota is the Blade being slipped into the kidney, while Amazonia is busy dealing with the AZT army in Venezuela.
But everything else I think is falling into place. I think the Man Eating Trees need to get ignored
but that's just my 1 vote.
If Bogota is the only point of combat? AZT has already lost. You cannot bring in a conventional army through a treacherous mountain range and into a Rain Forest Swamp/Jungle of epic proportions and hope to get anywhere.
The only spot in South America to have a serious land war, is Venezuella. Brazil's impossible to hold against Jungle Native Paracritters that include Naga, Wyverns, and Shapeshifters of every ilk.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 20 2010, 10:23 PM
Well, Cali is mentioned as being attacked by Sirrurg and Cali is way southwest of Bogotá inside the DMZ. It makes sense for the war being fought through the whole Cordillera. Also, it is mentioned that when Aztlan declared war, their teocallis were performing some kind of ritual to prevent the regrowth of the jungle for a short period of time. I don't know, I think that somehow AZT was able to create a forward base inside the Basin and needs Bogotá to keep ressuplying it. Seriously, how the hell you want to make a book about a war and DO NOT put a map in it?
What you guys think?
sabs
Dec 20 2010, 10:30 PM
That I like
There's a Forward base in ... Villavicencion maybe? Or perhaps Cumanbo.
That they are resupplying from Bogota.
The Amazonians are enganged in Guerilla warfare through out the mountains.
Maybe they suffer from the problem that their only air units are Wyverns and Condor Shifters?
Really? Cali?
That's practically in Peru.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 20 2010, 10:42 PM
Yes, Cali is one of the cities that belong inside the DMZ.
And Cali is nowhere near Peru. It is closer to Equador and even then, some 500km north of Equador. And while Vilavicencio would be a nice forward base. I really meant a FORWARD base, something like Miraflores, somewhere where the old colombian-brazilian border used to be, the book says that somehow AZT is moving towards Manaus. I don't think they are really trying to conquer the whole country, but perhaps getting close to the Dragons' lairs might force them to capitulate?
Nath
Dec 20 2010, 11:01 PM
Whatever remains of Colombian and Venezuelian offshore oil reserves may also worth picking up the fight. Amazonian troops getting anywhere close to the shore would not be a good news for Aztechnology and Pemex.
Still, I wouldn't go for the purely economical reason. If there was something really significant, there would be more than just one corporation involved (yes, I know, War! involves Horizon on the Church and Amazonian side). Politically, losing Yucatan was a major loss of face for Aztlan. Nationalism alone can explain the urge to oppose Amazonia.
The cartels may have been stockpiling weapons over the years. No matter how much damage the 2071 strikes have made, Aztlan has to move in to prevent the cartels from establishing strongholds in the area, from which they could destabilize neighboring countries. Enrique Uribe of the Olaya cartel was clearly supporting a Colombian independence agenda, and the new head of the Andes cartel is an Amazonian senator.
Also, I can imagine Amazonia doing what Libya did in the 1980ies. You'd have a bunch of training camps run by in Amazonian controlled territories, run by Green War and Primeira Vaga, where terrorists from all over the world go, with little regards to what cause they actually defend. IRL, there are a bunch of IRA and ETA members in Colombia, who trained the FARC and supplied them with weapons. They moved to Venezuela later, with the blessing of the current government.
The actual reason for the war can be as simple a Aztlan and Aztechnology trying to use the momentum of the international crackdown on tempo to pacify the area, while it enjoys support from other megacorporations and governments. They believed Hualpa would not go to a full scale war to defend terrorists training camps and cartel operations, but they underestimated the influence Sirrurg had on the Amazonian military apparatus.
hermit
Dec 20 2010, 11:04 PM
Yeah, Bogota is an odd place for the center of this war. If they were to push for Manaus, I'd expect Aztlan to land troops in Caracas, seize the place, probably using local warlords bribed into service to keep things calm, reassure all other megas they're not gonna take whatever they have away from them and then set up a staging area in and around Caracas (where, if I am not mistaken, the majority of fighting in Ghost cartels' finale took place), to push through the forest from there. Or, even more sensible, just make an amphibious landing in Manaus and seize/destroy the city, then reinforce and go for Metropole. Because really, how is Aztlan EVER going to secure the Basin when the entire damn Basin wants to fight them. It's like the Azzis are the corp guys from Avatar. They cannot possibly win there, they can only establish bases. They can take the cities, maybe (taking Metropole I imagine a total nightmare), but how will they conquer the rainforest, ever. In Aztlan's long history of ill-devised wars, this is the worst. But this is South America, home of the soccer war, so it does not break my suspense of disbelief.
QUOTE ("Chance359")
I would like to help with this project. I've got some ideas for gear.
Welcome then! Shoot your ideas here, until I get that Forum done.
@River Basin: Amazonia is larger than that. It's absorbed a number of neighbouring countries.
As for motivations, the two countries have been hating each other on principle since Aztlan sourcebook. Amazonia strongly disapproves of Aztlan's industrial ways, Aztlan wants to expand, and the ancient forces behind both are VERY MUCH at odds anyway. Even if the Horror pact faction in Aztech is somewhat on the back bruner now, Amazonia is full of entities that violently hate anything touched on principle, and at least oen of it'S leaders - Sirrug - hates human civilisation on principle because the idea that a mundane, human built missile might just take him out makes him ANGRY.
They have enough motivations to trade blows. They had for some time. This was bound to happen. It really didn't need those trees. But maybe that's just a pretext anyway. We sure can explain it away like this.
As for the action ... I like what you dug out so far, but that seems rather ... immobile. A very, very bad start into a war of conquering for Aztlan. Maybe Aztlan wants to seize Manaus by sea? that would at least spice things up a bit.
sabs
Dec 21 2010, 12:38 AM
I honestly think that Caracas needs to stay a free city. It's a better story.
AZT is fighting a 2 prong war.
1) they're fighting in Northen Venezuella a land war over the oil fields.
2) They have a forward base at Millaflores (Having looked at the map, that's an awesome idea Brazil
3) Bogota is used as a major airport/base to supply/reinforce Millaflores
4) They are involved in the Bogota area in a war against the Cartels (who have Amazonian support)
At the forward base they are involved with several operations
a) they are logging
b) they are collecting magical ingredients
c) they are branching out to find and destroy terrorist training camps that are deep in the Amazon jungle.
If you put the Northern Battle Line right around Route 5 and 13.. between say: Barinas and Calabozo.
You can have major Merc groups working out of Caracas.
IN Caracas you can have AZT/Amazonian Berlin like Cold War with Mercs and Shadowrunners caught in between.
And yes, it's a bad start for AZT. But that's assuming that actually land Grabbing the Amazon basin is actually the goal. If the goal is something completely different. Lets say they're looking for an Artifact of some kind, or they're hoping to draw Sirrug into a fight where they can kill him.
Lets say.. one of the Horror Corrupted Great Feathered Serpents is in Millaflores, in human form, disguised, with a cohort of Mages, and heavy armaments, just waiting for Sirrug to show up personally.
What the war is /about/ does not have to be anything related to what the war is officially about, or what most people think it's REALLY about. We can leave several hooks in for GMs to decide what's cool for them.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:00 AM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 20 2010, 10:24 PM)
Ancient Power Sites
Magical Ingredients and components for making Foci
Minerals
//warning delving into Earthdawn cross over crap//
Maybe the Amazon is a source of True Wood? and possibly True Water?
It's possible that deep inside the Basin are things AZT knows about that their Great Dragons want?
It's possible that the whole war is a power-play between the 5 Great Dragons involved in this thing?
The Horrors are coming back, perhaps theres resources in the Amazon Basin needed for 'something'
This all kind of fits into the Power-Sites idea, actually.
//end of Earthdawn Cross over crap//
Earthdawn tie-ins =
Why do we want to keep Bogota as a main hotspot of the book (and war - or vice versa)? If it doesn't make much sense for Atzlan to use the city as a base of operation in a war, let's drop it. We're not here to use
War! as a starting ground, are we?
sabs
Dec 21 2010, 03:21 AM
Mariacabos and Caracas make /much/ more sense as the main cities.
But Bogota has some possibilities.
Yeah, I love Earthdawn tie-ins too.. and I love it when there's 5 or 6 possible reasons for everything thats going on.
Idealy there's several layers of stuff going on
1) Great Dragons running AZT are doing shit to mess with Great Dragons running Amazonia
2) AZT is trying to get more resources/power for them
3) Amazonia is funding eco-terrorism
4) Ares and S&K are funding Mercenary groups to evaluate new toys.
5) True Wood coveted by AZT to work on cornering the Orichalchum market
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 08:14 AM
QUOTE
I honestly think that Caracas needs to stay a free city. It's a better story.
It will, I thought. Aztlan will just use it ass a staging area. Of course, a couple people will panic anyway, but Aztlan has no need for a second omega order threat. But yes, following your ideas, Caracas could also become a mercenary staguing area, kind of a neural zone where everyone moves their guys through.
QUOTE
1) they're fighting in Northen Venezuella a land war over the oil fields.
2) They have a forward base at Millaflores (Having looked at the map, that's an awesome idea Brazil
3) Bogota is used as a major airport/base to supply/reinforce Millaflores
4) They are involved in the Bogota area in a war against the Cartels (who have Amazonian support)
At the forward base they are involved with several operations
a) they are logging
b) they are collecting magical ingredients
c) they are branching out to find and destroy terrorist training camps that are deep in the Amazon jungle.
If you put the Northern Battle Line right around Route 5 and 13.. between say: Barinas and Calabozo.
You can have major Merc groups working out of Caracas.
IN Caracas you can have AZT/Amazonian Berlin like Cold War with Mercs and Shadowrunners caught in between.
(...)
What the war is /about/ does not have to be anything related to what the war is officially about, or what most people think it's REALLY about. We can leave several hooks in for GMs to decide what's cool for them.
Sounds lik a good outset, yes. But we need a somewhat believable (I know, the soccer war; Venezuela-Colombia near-war recently over Chavez' ego, but still ...) official reason too. "THEY ARE PLANTING TREES! TO ARMS, MY NA'VI BROTHERS! FOR THE FOREST!" ... just don't cut it. Even Hitler staged a polish attack on a broadcasting station before Germany invaded Poland. The SpecOps team caught red handed might work, but ...
QUOTE
Earthdawn tie-ins =
Thirded. Also, we need to do something with the photosynthetic elves. I loathe how metavariants are invented and then put on a bus. They're a bit dorky but they have such a nice na'vi vibe. Wyvern/Lesser Roc riding Xapiri Tépé (adepts that are attuned to the animal and have animal empathy with the animal handling skills from RW). Sirrug's shock troops, also used in the mountain fighting. What you say?
QUOTE
Why do we want to keep Bogota as a main hotspot of the book (and war - or vice versa)? If it doesn't make much sense for Atzlan to use the city as a base of operation in a war, let's drop it. We're not here to use War! as a starting ground, are we?
Seconded. Besides, that way it's harder for the Temple to pursue legal action.
QUOTE
And yes, it's a bad start for AZT. But that's assuming that actually land Grabbing the Amazon basin is actually the goal. If the goal is something completely different. Lets say they're looking for an Artifact of some kind, or they're hoping to draw Sirrug into a fight where they can kill him.
Lets say.. one of the Horror Corrupted Great Feathered Serpents is in Millaflores, in human form, disguised, with a cohort of Mages, and heavy armaments, just waiting for Sirrug to show up personally.
Nice. Maybe they're looking for an abandoned city int eh rainforest? ED never made it to America to my knowledge, so we can go nuts there, and I vaguely remember an old, old adventure module that had a mage go into the deep amazon and come back changed from some ruins found there. Will have to look that up.
QUOTE
1) Great Dragons running AZT are doing shit to mess with Great Dragons running Amazonia
2) AZT is trying to get more resources/power for them
3) Amazonia is funding eco-terrorism
4) Ares and S&K are funding Mercenary groups to evaluate new toys.
5) True Wood coveted by AZT to work on cornering the Orichalchum market
1) Sorry, AZT is run by Horrors, not great dragons. It just has a bunch (cabal ...) of regular dragions, at least a couple of them tainted.
2) yep
3) News at 11, but 'war on terror' is a good pretext. AZT couild retrospectively 'discover' how Amazonia was sponsoring terrorists during the Yucatán war.
4) And to train their forces at jungle warfare. SK cooperating with the French Foreign Legion out of French Guyana. Amazonia is pissed and maybe makes threats to annex it. Proteus threatens to shut down Amazonian sea trade. The Corp Court has several long sessions to resolve this.
5) They make it into combat-oriented foci and ship them back to the troops. Or we pick up the "enchanting on the side" stuff from War - the AZT troopers are outfittingh themselves with True Wood based magical goodies to gain an edge in the forest. But I dunno, it seems the writer didn't quite know enchanting rules and rules for extended tests. Maybe the AZT army mages do this in R&R though.
Kot
Dec 21 2010, 09:58 AM
QUOTE
Nice. Maybe they're looking for an abandoned city in the rainforest? ED never made it to America to my knowledge, so we can go nuts there, and I vaguely remember an old, old adventure module that had a mage go into the deep amazon and come back changed from some ruins found there. Will have to look that up.
Well, ED was just the beginning of the Age of Legends. I bet Thera expanded that far, judging by the lore mesoamerican cultures had, and their penchant for Death Magic.
And i'd second that 'corrupted dragons' metaplot line. All those Verjigorm victims had to go somewhere. And i bet only a few of them are awake by now. Maybe even just one. If we ignore the botched 2nd edition ED storyline, maybe Vestrivan is still there? That would also mean we have lost Vasdenjas somwhere during the downtime (Dunkelzahn took over his duties, now passed to Lofwyr), or he overslept. More than Icewing/Ghostwalker.
And going back to the topic, i can brew you some info on Polish warzones - i.e. the 'joint' TriCity corporate campaign vs. the toxic warlords of Mazury, Poland vs. Pomerian Awakened/pagan guerrillas west of TriCity, and the shadow war in TriCity, where power struggle slowly turns into mercenary/shadowrunner raids on opponents facilities and territories.
EDIT: What if Atzlan just wants to be sure the Skyhook will be in their territory?
lokii
Dec 21 2010, 10:03 AM
Since some of you go on about how there are no maps and you have to draw one to get an overview of the situation has everybody seen this
post? I made some maps that show the border region right before the war broke out, the at this time contested territory is also marked. The maps are not perfect but they should be able to bring everyone on the same
map page. ^_^
If you include Asian hotspots you might want to consider going back to the Shadows of Asia maps. The Almanac revised the Asian geography. There appears to be no in game reason because none of these changes are commented on in the Almanac neither in the timeline nor in the geography part of the book. Most extreme example Henan has lost a third of it's territory to Sichuan and a small part to the Canton Confederation, but there is no mention of this in the Canton chapter. Also Shaanxi has lost a good chunk of its territory to Gansu of all places, but Gansu isn't even mentioned in the write-up on the country. They basically took a version of the Asian geography which sets most of the region back to the 2000 country and sub-national administrative borders. I think the reason for this - and there I can theoretically empathise - is that the SoA maps are not in Mercator projection and it's a real pain to include them in a Mercator map. Of course for my own world map I went through exactly that pain, so ... Anyway judging from the German translation of the Almanac which includes a massive errata that was approved by Catalyst the new Asian geography will stay. I will revise my own blank world maps (for example Mercator version:
http://shadowhelix.de/Datei:Weltkarte_2072...nk_mercator.svg ) in the foreseeable future, but it could already be used as an alternative that features the SoA geography of Asia. I think I can relicense the maps if necessary but they would have to be used non-commercially a requirement that is set by the GADM dataset I based them on. I think that's a given though. Well, as I said you might want to consider using the state of SoA. I'm not saying that you cannot change things but since the changes remain completely unexplained and also going back to the 2000 borders seems the most unlikely thing to happen, well I think you catch my drift.
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 12:04 AM)
Maybe Aztlan wants to seize Manaus by sea? that would at least spice things up a bit.
Erm, Manaus is smack in the middle of northern Amazonia, you can reach it via the Amazon and the Rio Negro but it's a long way from the sea. Something like 500 km at the closest distance.
sabs
Dec 21 2010, 11:37 AM
The problem with that Map from the lovely Germans.. It means that AZT and AMazonia are fighting a giant land war.. on a mountain range that's 9000 to 12000 Feet up. (3000 to 4000 meters)
Ask the NATO allies, fighting a land war in that kind of terrain sucks. And looking at the topography of Afghanistan vs That area.. Afghanistan is flatter, and at a lower altitude.
Why would AZT roll 'tanks' through High Mountain Passes. It's just.. crazy.
lokii
Dec 21 2010, 12:46 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 21 2010, 12:37 PM)
The problem with that Map from the lovely Germans.. It means that AZT and AMazonia are fighting a giant land war.. on a mountain range that's 9000 to 12000 Feet up. (3000 to 4000 meters)
Just so there is no misunderstanding the red area in the map is not a suggestion of a combat zone it is just what they have fought over in the small-scale border skirmishes in the past, the territory that is contested between Amazonia and Aztlan since 2050. It should pretty accurately reflect the area marked on the Shadowrun Anniversary and Almanac maps. And yes this is a giant area 20 year stand-off.
BTW: Tthe Aztlan Sourcebook is really instructive on this. We should think about quoting the section "Southern Border (Amazonia)" in full here. Some choice parts:
QUOTE ('Aztlan p.130')
Along the southern border, the tactical situation is very different. The terrain is much more restrictive - rugged mountains and deep valleys, most of them blanketed with heavy forest.
QUOTE ('Aztlan p.130')
Aztlan has tried to mark and secure the border by clearing forest and laying fences. However, because the magic that has so quickly reforested Amazonia causes the jungle to encroach on these cleared areas at an astonishing rate, Aztlan seems to have given up this practice.
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 21 2010, 12:37 PM)
Why would AZT roll 'tanks' through High Mountain Passes. It's just.. crazy.
Well if there are tanks in use around Bogotá in War! (I wouldn't know, I don't have it and I sure don't want to get it) this just shows how ill thought out this whole campaign is.
I actually see two major goals for an Aztlan campaign: going for Caracas or cutting off Amazonia from the Pacific Ocean by conquering the Cordillera Occidental range down to Ecuador (and that is assuming that Amazonia cares about direct access to the Pacific though Aztlan might still have other reasons for wanting it). I cannot imagine them descending on the Amazon basin. They would find themselves in territory that opens up to nothing but Amazonian rainforest, which itself is kinda the enemy. There is nothing to conquer for a long time (Manaus is 1000 km away), though of course one could invent some critical sites within the jungle but they would probably make more for hit-and-run targets than goals for occupation. And the whole slash-n-burn and deforestation strategy really bit the Azzies in the behind in the Yucatán War, so it would be crazy for them to try it on Amazonia (unless one invents some plot device why it works this time). So I in my assessment the best thing they can hope for on this front is dominating the mountain region to the point where they can freely raid the Amazon basin within a certain range and support some mobile resource gathering operations like logging or brute force mineral extraction.
EDIT: The Amazonian locus would make for a prime military target. As I understand it, its a key element in speeding the growth of the Amazonian rainforest. I don't think its location has ever been pinpointed but if it were located in northern Amazonia, well that is one target the Azzies would really die to hit.
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 01:14 PM
QUOTE
Maybe even just one. If we ignore the botched 2nd edition ED storyline, maybe Vestrivan is still there?
At least two are canon. One was mentioned in Aztlan (a feathered serpend), and one was mentioned in Shadows of Asia's Ukraine chapter, part of a story of horror of a sailor.
Also, there's Feuerschwinge, Germany's radioactive toxic dragon legend.
QUOTE
Most extreme example Henan has lost a third of it's territory to Sichuan and a small part to the Canton Confederation, but there is no mention of this in the Canton chapter. Also Shaanxi has lost a good chunk of its territory to Gansu of all places, but Gansu isn't even mentioned in the write-up on the country. They basically took a version of the Asian geography which sets most of the region back to the 2000 country and sub-national administrative borders.
Gah. They also made Asamondo three times it's previous size. No mention in the writeup either, though the idea of blind ghouls being diamond cutters is utterly hilarious.
Yeah, going back to SoA probably is a good idea.
That, or we write up WHY the borders changed like they did.
QUOTE
Erm, Manaus is smack in the middle of northern Amazonia, you can reach it via the Amazon and the Rio Negro but it's a long way from the sea. Something like 500 km at the closest distance.
By river then. But with ships and all that. Open a second front, secure the city ... but yeah, maybe not.
QUOTE
Why would AZT roll 'tanks' through High Mountain Passes. It's just.. crazy.
Why not? If one falls off the narrow road, they just cast slow on it, spin it so it lands on it's tracks, and then it goes up anew. :roll:
No, it makes no sense. But War! vague writing helps us there. For all we know, the war in Bogota could be fougfht entirely with armored and armed segways.
QUOTE
EDIT: The Amazonian locus would make for a prime military target. As I understand it, its a key element in speeding the growth of the Amazonian rainforest. I don't think its location has ever been pinpointed but if it were located in northern Amazonia, well that is one target the Azzies would really die to hit.
At the very least, it makes for an excellent rumor. However, ever sicne the loss of their own Locus, they sure are looking for a new one. That actually gives them a reason to march into the Basin.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 21 2010, 01:45 PM
I think we've hit a fork on the road here.
We have two options. Completely rewrite the AM-AZT war or use War! as foundation and work on top of it (polishing it and removing inconsistencies).
I prefer the latter.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 01:47 PM
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 21 2010, 02:45 PM)
Completely rewrite the AM-AZT war
This.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 01:48 PM
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 09:14 AM)
Thirded. Also, we need to do something with the photosynthetic elves. I loathe how metavariants are invented and then put on a bus. They're a bit dorky but they have such a nice na'vi vibe. Wyvern/Lesser Roc riding Xapiri Tépé (adepts that are attuned to the animal and have animal empathy with the animal handling skills from RW). Sirrug's shock troops, also used in the mountain fighting. What you say?
Seems fine to me.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 01:49 PM
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 21 2010, 04:00 AM)
Why do we want to keep Bogota as a main hotspot of the book (and war - or vice versa)? If it doesn't make much sense for Atzlan to use the city as a base of operation in a war, let's drop it. We're not here to use War! as a starting ground, are we?
QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
Actually, someone really needs to slap some of those people around and give them a bit of shadowrun history. Especially as regards Aztlan. Anyway, here's the history of Bogotá through different books:
- In Aztlan, which is set in 2056, Aztlan has the mountains all around Bogotá and a forward presence just 50 kilometers north of the city, but Amazonia still claims Bogotá itself. Columbia does not exist, and a Jaguar shapeshifter confidently predicts that Aztlan will never contest Bogotá proper.
- In Shadows of Latin America, which is set in 2065, Columbia is revealed to be an Aztlaner state, and Bogotá is the capital of that state. Here's the full text:
[ Spoiler ]
Bogotá is the largest city in the Aztlaner state of Colombia, and the staging ground for Aztlan’s military presence outside of Mesoamerica. Consequently, Bogotá is primarily a military town, catering to both Aztlaner and Aztechnology corporate military and intelligence forces. The local community has been steered toward supporting the Aztlaner military presence in terms of miltech (munitions, vehicles and drones, armor), pharmaceuticals (stimulants, antibacterial, and antiviral drugs), and sustenance (dry rations and fortified water). Aztechnology owns all of the coca fields surrounding the city to ensure the products are not misused by local criminal interests.
- Runner Havens, which is set in 2070 uses the Shadows of Latin America timetable and confirms that there is no independent Columbia.
- Corporate Enclaves, which is set in 2072, also uses the Shadows of Latin America timetable (explicitly, even mentioning Shadows of Latin America by name to piss off anxious fanboys), and confirms that the Columbian nationalists live inside Aztlan.
- Jason took over as developer and shit got crazy.
Anyway, a number of things have been said about Aztlan that are not actually true. First of all, they do not work
for the Horrors. They use a lot of death magic, but they are not in fact horror puppets. The Aztlan + Horrors plotline was complicated, but it also ended. Parts of it are stupid and it involve various Xanatos Gambits that are fairly far fetched and only work because Immortal Elves and Great Dragons are always right. Here's the short version:
[ Spoiler ]
There once was a villain, who went under the name Oscuro or the even more imaginative villain name: Darke. Anyway, he was bad and showed up in the original Threats book. He was the leader of a group called The Bloodmage Gestalt. They were getting money funneled into them for "evil research" by an unnamed secret portfolio inside the Aztechnology corporation, and also had some horror allies. They showed up in various sourcebooks as villains who were doing blood magic and evil research. In Cybertechnology it was confirmed that the results of their evil research were cybermancy techniques and building a "mana bridge" to help the horrors invade our world. Oh noes! This information was collected by Dunkelzahn, who gave it to Harlequin (and several other IEs) with a big bow wrapped around it in the Aztlan sourcebook. Then Harlequin tracked down a group of plucky Shadowrunners and took them on a surrealist metaplanar dungeon crawl culminating in shooting Darke right in the face and murdering a bunch of members of the Bloodmage Gestalt, these events are the campaign book Harlequin's Back. Thereafter, the Bloodmage Gestalt lost their funding and the surviving members were mostly shot in the face by Aztechnology as some sort of loose ends clearing action; though it was later confirmed that some of the Blood Mage Gestalt members escaped and was last seen working for MCT. Dunkelzahn then did a giant blood magic ritual where he died and turned into a spirit and possessed a cyberzombie and made a magic artifact that sealed all the other potential bridge locations, thereby bringing the Horror Invasion plotline to a close for the next thousand years. That was the Dragonheart Trilogy, which is actually pretty stupid, but at least it ended the Horror Invasion plotline so we could get back to the morally gray stuff that Shadowrun is actually about. And finally, between Augmentation and Portfolio of a Dragon, we discover that the person controlling the secret monetary portfolio within Aztechnology was... Dunkelzahn the whole time.
So.... no. Aztechnology was never "pro-horror" and they aren't "pro-horror right now either. They are just fascists who are really into public execution and Mesoamerican fashion. And the entire quadruple-cross to stop the horrors happened to play out in Aztlan because that is a place where you could sacrifice a very large number of people for dubious research and still keep that a secret from the public.
As for Great Dragons in Aztechnology, yes. They have names One of them is Inti Jiwana, who is a Great Eastern Dragon who is known to have aura scars from horror claws (Aztlan, p. 68). The other is Chico Aze, who is a Great Feathered Serpent of whom almost nothing is known besides the name and the fact that he has developed an interest in cybermancy (Augmentaion) For those keeping track at home, Chico Aze is a Nahua name meaning "The Sun" (although for conspiracy theorists, it specifically refers to the sun that is overhead during the fifth world, not the current sun), and presumably comes from somewhere around Tenochtitlan, while Inti Jiwana is a Quechua name, and presumably comes from Ecuador or Peru. It means "Eclipse", but in the suitably florid language of Quechua it more specifically means "The Jaguar That Swallows The Sun".
-Frank
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 02:01 PM
QUOTE
Yeah, the Dumpshockers are gradually realizing something I realized months ago: Bogotá is in the fucking mountains and is about as easy to invade or invade out of as Switzerland. The writeup in War! acts like the jungle comes right up to the doorstep of the city, but really there are the Andean Fucking Mountains in the way. It's kind of a big deal. Bogotá is a damn dead end. Even if you could somehow manage to invade into Bogotá, there's no way you'll be able to invade out of it. The same mountain ranges that make it easy to keep an army out also make it easy to keep an army in. Bogotá is a valuable enough target to want to own, but it's not the spearhead of anything.
Basically war is the conduction of diplomacy or politics by other means. This means that people fight wars because there is something they want that someone else refuses to give them. Sometimes this can be something noble like "civil rights" or something purely nationalistic like "self determination for this arbitrary group of people". But very frequently it is purely economic - one side wants something (land, resources, slaves, money, whatever) and they are willing to pay less than the other side is wiling to accept for it. Sometimes the other side won't sell it at any price (especially when it's land or slaves that are being bargained for).
So first of all, you want to cover a war zone that is about several different things. A war for market share, a war for resources, a war for empire, a war for better treatment.
And then secondly, every war is different from every other war in how it is fought. Technology, terrain, factions, doctrine, all of these are important, even defining variables. So you're going to want to cover lots of different types of war. The Amazonia-Aztlan war is actually fine as a set piece as far as that goes, because it has mountain conflict, jungle conflict, and urban warfare with formed units versus guerrillas. Obviously, you'd need to recast the objectives to ones that made any sense and draw some battle lines that made any sense at all, of course.
So really you could mix and match. You could do worse than having this be the "Jungle Book" where the set piece wars were the Amazonia-Aztlan War, the Nag Kampuchea-Republic of Cambodia-Siamese War of Succession, the Congolese Conflict Zone, and the War of Samoan Aggression. Compare and contrast different kinds of jungle and how the prosecution of a war differs when goals, doctrines, and available resources are different. Talk about the difference in supply lines when you have different connections to the water (Bogotá is 400 kilometers from the Ocean, while the unification of the Polynesian Kingdoms is happening in the Pacific Theater where everything is naval almost all the time). Alternately you could try to mix and match your terrains, with the extra ones being a clash between the Ottomans and Hungarians in the Baltic, a piece of DesertWars (brought to you by NERPS), and an expansion of Imperial Nippon into Korea and Kamchatka.
It really depends on how focused you want the book to be.
Also this. Really worth pondering.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 02:07 PM
Yup.
We need to get an outline of the Aztlan-Amazonia war online soon, otherwise we'll never get this done.
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 02:26 PM
I'd prefer a timeline for the beginning. Which means we have to sort out when the war actually begins, when stuff happens in war, descide if we want to gloss over war or use what little is usable and go with it, and then fill in the blanks with meaningful stuff.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 02:27 PM
Plus add reasonable motivations for Atzlan to start a war over.
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 02:46 PM
Plus that, but that does not belong into a timeline, but into a short writeup of what the parties in the war actuallywant (and who we want to see there).
Personally, I can kinda see Ares (though decidedly not why Amnazonia would let them, or are they THAT desperate?), but Horizon? Why does Horizon have to be everywhere? They're a media, pharmaceuticals and advertising company, and not a militech corp doing major mercenary business? Even the Singularity comlinks have been ridiculous, but just within Horizon's scope as a corp. But going to war in Amazonia? Way, way out of their sphere of influence? What the fuck.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 21 2010, 02:46 PM
Reasonable motivations abound. For both sides. There is the fact that the leadership of both side doesn't like each other.
Considering both countries are dictatorships (in one form or another) it doesn't need more for them to go to war.
Of course, this is not a good political reason. We need to define who attacked first. Probably Aztlan; in this case, what excuses are they giving to declare war without receiving a UN or Corporate Council embargo?
Sirrurg would be best excuse; Aztlan/Aztechnology spread the rumours about some magical experiments they are doing along the DMZ, specially if it envolves dragons and dracomorphs. Sirrurg gathers enough evidence of this and levels the city (not necessarely a major one, a medium city could work). I think this could work.
The real reason why Aztlan wants this war? Power sites hidden in the Basin? Beat the crap out of three Great Dragons? Greed, pure and simple (woods, minerals, water)? For the lulz?
Brazilian_Shinobi
Dec 21 2010, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2010, 11:46 AM)
Plus that, but that does not belong into a timeline, but into a short writeup of what the parties in the war actuallywant (and who we want to see there).
Personally, I can kinda see Ares (though decidedly not why Amnazonia would let them, or are they THAT desperate?), but Horizon? Why does Horizon have to be everywhere? They're a media, pharmaceuticals and advertising company, and not a militech corp doing major mercenary business? Even the Singularity comlinks have been ridiculous, but just within Horizon's scope as a corp. But going to war in Amazonia? Way, way out of their sphere of influence? What the fuck.
When do we split from the official timeline anyway?
I would have to get home and check my 6thWA for ideas anyway.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:01 PM
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 21 2010, 03:46 PM)
The real reason why Aztlan wants this war? Power sites hidden in the Basin? Beat the crap out of three Great Dragons? Greed, pure and simple (woods, minerals, water)? For the lulz?
All of them.
@hermit: I've made the experience that a project needs a set deadline, otherwise it will fade out easily. So give us a deadline for a first draft for both timeline and background info on the war (who went to war with whom for what reasons?). And yeah, totally agree on Horizon.
Kot
Dec 21 2010, 03:05 PM
QUOTE (Grinder @ Dec 21 2010, 03:27 PM)
Plus add reasonable motivations for Atzlan to start a war over.
Getting the Skyhook to be on their(newly conquered) land?
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 03:05 PM
I dunno. Or at least play it down (like, they sell pharmaceuticals to anyone). But I don't want to see Horizon fielding it any forces of note, because that corp is MS'd up and annoying as is.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:07 PM
Agreed.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:08 PM
QUOTE (Kot @ Dec 21 2010, 04:05 PM)
Getting the Skyhook to be on their(newly conquered) land?
Maybe. We have a couple of others too:
Ancient Power Sites
Magical Ingredients and components for making Foci
Minerals
Power sites hidden in the Basin? Beat the crap out of three Great Dragons? Greed, pure and simple (woods, minerals, water)? For the lulz?
Doc Chase
Dec 21 2010, 03:10 PM
I forget - who won the contract on the Star Ladder, and would there be an acceptable site for it in Amazonia?
Kot
Dec 21 2010, 03:20 PM
Hell, why not all of these? A few serious reasons behind the war are better than just one. And when there's a lot of nuyen to be made on each and every one of them, it's even better for Aztechnology/Atzlan.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:21 PM
Yup, think so too. We just need to keep them all in mind and collect them, before a good, rock-solide motivation slips past us.
hermit
Dec 21 2010, 03:26 PM
QUOTE
For the lulz?
The evulz!
So, this is what we have so far:
Motivations:
Aztlan:
- Ancient Power Sites (capture the other South American Locus, and cut off their great rival's power base once and for all). Likely tie in with third motivation.
- Magical Ingredients and components for making Foci - because since they'Re there, why not make a profit of it.
Beat the crap out of three Great Dragons - possible. at least, kill Sirrug and lure him out by pissing him off. Hualpa and #3 optional.
- Power sites hidden in the Basin - we can make much of this - the site of the Locus, the heart of the forest, as in Avatar, hidden amazonian power centers. Amazonia still has never received a decent writeup, so there is lots and lots of free space.
- Greed, pure and simple (woods, minerals, water) is at the core of their being, but here, it should be a bit more pointed, as we have enough at our hands. It should be a secondary objective, they'Re still a corp after all.
Minerals - I dunno. It's a long term thing. Unless there's some sort of Unobtanium there somewhere, but I'll stay THE HELL AWAY from orichalcum mining. Bad enough David Hill opened that can of worms. But if they manage to secure territory, it's sure gonna be strip-mined and logged. They probably have suspected ore-rich sites earmarked as secondary targets all the time.
Ideas for the other factions:
Amazonia:
- get Aztlan the hell out of their country
- Preserve the forest
- defend themselves, pure and simple. Maybe push Aztlan out of SA entirely, going for the Panama canal as new border.
- possibly something with Primaira Varga since it seems nobody will ever follow up on that anyway. what about all those sleepers? Something could be done with them.
Ares:
- Test new toys
- Stick it to the Azzies (they are big with the CAS. Probably, a couple CAS units are working with Ares, under Ares' command and logo).
Horizon:
- Make a good name for themselves with refugee camps, call-in shows for refugees, donating medicine and crawling up Amazonia's ass in the hope they'll share the next Tempo with them.
- Scientology stuff (admit it, it just makes SENSE that the CoS has been absorbed into Horizon). MAybe they're looking for some weirdo stuff around volcanos?
sabs
Dec 21 2010, 03:30 PM
Aztlan reasons for going to war:
1) A power play between The Great Dragons involved in AZT and Singurr and Hapaul(sp)
2) AZT is looking for a new LOCUS site, and they know there's a Major one powering the Amazonian Regrowth, they just have no fucking clue where it is.
3) Venezuellan Oil Fields
4) They want to get Singurr to 'bring it' and give them a shot at killing him
5) Control of the Coca fields of Columbia
6) Cause they're bitter about Yucatan
7) Finding and destroying the Eco Training Camps being protected by Singurr
8) True Wood
9) Magical components (Heart of a wyvern, Eye of a Pacau*, Awakened Boa Constrictor Skin, etc)
10) Minerals/rare earth elements/True Earth deposits in the Cordillera Mountains.
11) Drekkin Amazonian Trees making it impossible to strip mine the Cordillera.
12) Those Dirty Amazonians got caught red handed blowing up a factory that was producing medicine to treat some horrible disease (Maybe VITAS III?)
Amazonian Reasons for Throwing Down
1) AZT tricked us into blowing up that factory and we're pissed.
2) Hapaul isn't going to let no two bit Great Dragon and his human mini-onions take land he has claimed away from him
3) Venezuella is polluting the land with their refineries/Oil Wells. We must stop them
4) Important relics from the 4th age are on the Amazonian side of those Mountains, and they wont let them go
5) Zeal for defending the Earth from those strip mining AZT devils.
6) It's out LOCUS and you can't have it.
7) Live Free or Die!
Corporatiosn involved in the Conflict.
Ares is bank rolling experimental weapons testing in live combat through several mercenary groups
Horizon is providing unofficial monetary support to Amazonia.. because they have a LUCRATIVE awakened pharmaceuticals contract with Amazonia, and they're worried AZT will just cut them out of the market.
S&K is negotiating with Aztlan to allow S&K to open up subsidiaries in Aztlan. They're offering to help AZT with the Corp Council votes, and with some monetary support. (Lofwyr is still bitter about Dunkie's Will)
The Free City State of Caracas is trying to stay that way.
UN/Corp Council Join peace Keepign force:
French Foreign Legion
CAS Expeditionary Force
UCAS Rangers
Ares Valkyrie Force
Renraku Red Samurai
Japanese Imperial Army
a couple of dozen Merc Outfits working out of the city.
Bogota is being used as a hub for quick strikes into the Amazon.
Caracas is where all the Mercs are hired out of
The real Front Line is Maracaibo Lake Area and Southern Venezuella.
AZT has a Forward Base that can only be supported/resupplied by Air SE of Bogota (There's a couple of choices)
Guerrila fighting in the Mountains and Jungles
Straight up Slug fest in Venezuella
Thoughts?
Stahlseele
Dec 21 2010, 03:36 PM
What's this about the skyhook? O.o
sabs
Dec 21 2010, 03:47 PM
Skyhook doesn't work in south america, weather, if I remember correctly.
Aztlan has northern Mexico which would be a much better spot for a Skyhook.
Grinder
Dec 21 2010, 03:53 PM
QUOTE (sabs @ Dec 21 2010, 04:30 PM)
Aztlan reasons for going to war:
1) A power play between The Great Dragons involved in AZT and Singurr and Hapaul(sp)
2) AZT is looking for a new LOCUS site, and they know there's a Major one powering the Amazonian Regrowth, they just have no fucking clue where it is.
3) Venezuellan Oil Fields
4) They want to get Singurr to 'bring it' and give them a shot at killing him
5) Control of the Coca fields of Columbia
6) Cause they're bitter about Yucatan
7) Finding and destroying the Eco Training Camps being protected by Singurr
True Wood
9) Magical components (Heart of a wyvern, Eye of a Pacau*, Awakened Boa Constrictor Skin, etc)
10) Minerals/rare earth elements/True Earth deposits in the Cordillera Mountains.
11) Drekkin Amazonian Trees making it impossible to strip mine the Cordillera.
12) Those Dirty Amazonians got caught red handed blowing up a factory that was producing medicine to treat some horrible disease (Maybe VITAS III?)
Amazonian Reasons for Throwing Down
1) AZT tricked us into blowing up that factory and we're pissed.
2) Hapaul isn't going to let no two bit Great Dragon and his human mini-onions take land he has claimed away from him
3) Venezuella is polluting the land with their refineries/Oil Wells. We must stop them
4) Important relics from the 4th age are on the Amazonian side of those Mountains, and they wont let them go
5) Zeal for defending the Earth from those strip mining AZT devils.
6) It's out LOCUS and you can't have it.
7) Live Free or Die!
Corporatiosn involved in the Conflict.
Ares is bank rolling experimental weapons testing in live combat through several mercenary groups
Horizon is providing unofficial monetary support to Amazonia.. because they have a LUCRATIVE awakened pharmaceuticals contract with Amazonia, and they're worried AZT will just cut them out of the market.
S&K is negotiating with Aztlan to allow S&K to open up subsidiaries in Aztlan. They're offering to help AZT with the Corp Council votes, and with some monetary support. (Lofwyr is still bitter about Dunkie's Will)
The Free City State of Caracas is trying to stay that way.
UN/Corp Council Join peace Keepign force:
French Foreign Legion
CAS Expeditionary Force
UCAS Rangers
Ares Valkyrie Force
Renraku Red Samurai
Japanese Imperial Army
a couple of dozen Merc Outfits working out of the city.
Bogota is being used as a hub for quick strikes into the Amazon.
Caracas is where all the Mercs are hired out of
The real Front Line is Maracaibo Lake Area and Southern Venezuella.
AZT has a Forward Base that can only be supported/resupplied by Air SE of Bogota (There's a couple of choices)
Guerrila fighting in the Mountains and Jungles
Straight up Slug fest in Venezuella
Thoughts?
Nice one! hermit's ideas gel well with it. A couple of the motivations will have to be kept very very secret in-game (the search for the Locus), thus we should only give small hints towards it and reveal a bit more in the game information chapter.
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