Full Version: Adept Powers of SOTA 2064
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Strictly by the rules a player cannot choose to geas powers or magic loss for an adept, only the GM can. IE: It's not up to you. You can't depend on that. |
Yet another question for a quote ...
And not only that, but in the meantime, while the adept does possess the geas... his power is just that... geased. Not exactly the same thing as the sam who has the broader use of the skills associated with it, and all without a caveat.
All this increase in the flexibility of the adept and the gradual erosion of what was previously considered the province of the mundane is not surprising. Why? Quite simply, the up cycle of magic is only beginning, magical research and development have just about half a century of time, whereas technology have considerably much more time and a greater headstart. It is only natural in a IC sense that adepts or magicians to increase in capabilities.
For those people that say the mundanes are now limited to certain niche roles, I'd say that is the price for not being Awakened. They are now truly limited by the fact that they chose Priority D/E or didn't pay 25/30 BPs. Previously, adepts pay 25 BPs to be limited to a niche. Now with these powers, they get more flexibility. But people complain that mundanes(who get their mundanity for free) get "pooched", well, turnaround's a bitch, ain't it?
For those people that say the mundanes are now limited to certain niche roles, I'd say that is the price for not being Awakened. They are now truly limited by the fact that they chose Priority D/E or didn't pay 25/30 BPs. Previously, adepts pay 25 BPs to be limited to a niche. Now with these powers, they get more flexibility. But people complain that mundanes(who get their mundanity for free) get "pooched", well, turnaround's a bitch, ain't it?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| But people complain that mundanes(who get their mundanity for free) get "pooched", well, turnaround's a bitch, ain't it? |
That's poetic.
and it's not like adepts aren't still niche characters--they're just able to choose from a wider array of niches.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 7 2005, 07:16 PM) |
| Strictly by the rules a player cannot choose to geas powers or magic loss for an adept, only the GM can. IE: It's not up to you. You can't depend on that. |
This is incorrect. The GM chooses the geas itself, but the decision to geas is solidly in the hands of the player.
More when I get out of class.
~J
| QUOTE (MitS p33) |
| If an adept suffers Magic loss, the gamemaster can choose to apply a geas to 1 point worth of the adept's powers. |
I think this implies that the GM can choose NOT to apply a geas and let the adept suffer the loss of his powers.
your correction is incorrect, kage.
| QUOTE (MitS page 33) |
| If an adept suffers Magic Loss, the gamemaster can choose to apply a geas to 1 point worth of the adept's powers. |
edit: hiss, beaten to the punch. i'll get you next time, gadget.
How odd. Ah well, file MitS under Stuff I Need To Reread.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Rev) |
| A lot of what physads really need is not new abilities to build toasters with thier magic powers, but non-lame versions of some of the basic powers. Like an attribute boost that works on attributes that start out high and makes them really high(imagine that, boosting an attribute from 8 to 16 for a little while might actually be worth power points and risking some drain), or an improved attribute that exists to give you higher than normally possible attributes (egad, an adept could have a magically enhanced quickness of 9 at chargen without blowing half thier power points on it!). |
Just to play Spud's Advocate for a second, why should a physad be able to boost Quickness to 9 without paying dearly for it in power points? If the character is a stupendous badass at character creation, the standby game balance argument goes, why bother with progression except that then they really will far outclass mundanes.
Even so, Magic makes characters special. Mundanes are, as the word is defined, " Relating to, characteristic of, or concerned with commonplaces; ordinary" (Dictionary.com). Ordinary people are supposed to suck next to magical characters. That's why cyberware exists. Ordinary mundanes (so to speak) aren't crap next to a starting physad in terms of abilities. And I have no problem with that.
The developers took what seems to be a pretty hard look at the rules and said that Paul Hume was a bastard to physads (But at least he wrote in clear, complete thoughts.). They merged increase reaction and reflexes into one power with a pp progression equal to Wired Reflexes, instead of making it prohibitively expensive to start out with +4 Reaction, +2D6 init; they made several of the older rules for attributes easier to use and, frankly, cheaper; they created stealth assassin "ninja" skills like traceless walk, wallrunning, gliding, and Quick Strike; they removed the godawful Enhanced Centering power, and made Centering useful for physads by allowing each level of Centering to provide dice bonuses to skill groups that used to cost 2 pp each; they expanded the Centering skills; created Beastmaster powers (BTW, paranimal handlers have been around for years in the books); created two new foci specifically for physads; allowed physmages to astrally project long enough to go through a Metaplanar Astral Quest; and diversified the abilities of physads so that they are more than a bunch of lame ninja and Bruce Lee ripoffs.
God and everyone else knows that I don't love all of the magic rules, but the fact is that it's better than it ever was.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Not if the task is one that magic had henceforth had no application in (social skills). There's enough room for the Awakened to be better at things, no need to make it total. |
*ahem*
"magic had henceforth had no application in (social skills)?" Nope, except for the Increase Attribute spells that provided bonuses for Charisma, Intelligence, or Willpower. Manipulations spells which alter appearance, control or influence thoughts and actions, and Detection spells which Compel Truth, serve as lie detectors, or otherwise manipulate people in social settings. Lest we forget, astral perception can also be used to influence social situations.
All of those non-applications?
Meanwhile, what do we have? Empathic Sense? Truly Game-breaking. Kinesics? Well, hell... They're physical adepts. What about this power to control their outward appearance to others doesn't make sense? Same goes with facial sculpt (No, sir. Never saw a homebrew version of this or worse before. No....) and melanin control.
Why is it that magicians can do whatever they like, but somehow physads are limited because... For all I can tell... They just can't. "They just can't" isn't a reason. "They just can't" is whining without making any rational or sound argument based on actual game rules, policy, or the fact that this game evolves out of at least some concern for making it a viable long-term economic product.
| QUOTE |
| If the Awakened are going to outclass everyone, go the Earthdawn route and don't pretend to let players play non-Awakened. |
That's just ignorant. You disregard the fact that there are countermeasures to magical abilities, and combat tech and cyber that outclasses physad abilities. Besides, you assume that this means that there won't be any mundane PCs anywhere, ever, which is just... Wow.
Wow.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| a sam can't specialize to the degree that an adept can, so they don't often try. i know at least one sam that can outshoot, outpunch, and almost outsneak my 200+ karma adept, though--and my adept's areas of specialization are shooting, punching, and sneaking. not only that, the sam has a wider variety of shooting and punching skills, and he's got a few points of Computer, and a nice car. bastard. |
Ah, yes. The combat decker...
Evil bastard.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| I'm all for criticism, feedback, and discussion, but that guy's rant is all over the map. |
Huh? I followed it all rather easily. I guess I don't getwhat you mena here. While I don't agree with everything he has to say, I can easily follow it.
| QUOTE |
| I'm not even sure where his point is. |
His point is similar to one I have been pushing for a while-Shadowrun has become more and more "Furry". The art, the game-the directionhas changed, and not necassarily for the best.
I think Shadowrun as a whole seems to lack a cohesive direction at times. I also think we're seeing way too much BeSM, "Furry" and anime crap in the game. I can live with some of this. I love Akira too. Ghost in the Shell was neat. Heck I even enjoy watching Hyper Force Monkey Team. That doesn't mean I want that in my game.
I see the system as moving in lateral direction, paralell to marel Super Heroes or Mutants and Masterminds. And to a point that's okay-I mean some of us do play Super Heroic games, or John Woo action thrillers right? Our money is as good as any one elses right? But from an artistic (And I don't just mean pictures here) stand point it's ass. (Like Craig, this is all just my personal opinion.)
| QUOTE |
| Some powers he describes as overpowered, some underpowered, some not "popular" enough for entry, some he just "doesn't like." |
Similar toother threads in that respect. It's really no different than any number of discussions I have seen here. Although I admit I am not fond of Deacon posting this for Craig. (I get why he did it, I am just not sure I would have done the same is all. I'm not slighting him for his choice.)
| QUOTE ("Craig") |
| As for the different Hermetic ways: Uhm. Hermetics. The whole point of Hermeticism is that they *all work the same way*. Despite quibbling on precise terms, as such, in game terms, they *all work the same way*. That is the point of being a Hermetic Mage. All this seems like extra potentially abusible window dressing. |
I won't respond to anything else he has to say here until I have read the book in question, but I will say I agree with some of what he has to say (Generally speaking) and disagree with some.
I REALLY diagree with this. Maybe I am understanding you wrong, but here's my take:
All magic works the same OOC. They all use the same basic rules-sorcery, conjuring, summoning. It's all SR3 magic right? They all use six sided die.
IC there should be all sorts of difference, saying Hermetics all function or view magic the same IC is absurd to me, and follows the rest of what you said poorly.
i took issue with that one, as well. as far as i could tell, the "point" of being a hermetic mage is summoning elementals.
A few points from the Doctor...
"Long-term, the adept can keep initiating and outstrip the samurai". We've done the math on this before in othre threads, and it's a.... really long frickin' term. I'm sure someone can look up the thread if they're desperate for the numbers, but iirc an adept had to initiate three or four times to catch up to a fully tricked-out starting samurai.
"The adept can geas his powers". Yep. Won't argue that point at all. But like it or not, a geas is a penalty. Somewhere along the line you are going to get royally screwed because of your geas. The samurai just gets on and does the job. Don't talk to me about the bloody stealth adept whose Improved Stealth was geased to the hours of darkness...
On the other hand
"Adepts don't set off metal detectors at airports etc". Too damn right. An adept can (in theory) go anywhere and do anything. A security mage can still ruin your day, but life is certainly easier in the international travel arena (just, you know, don't fly to Britain pretending to be mundane...)
"Adepts don't take social TN penalties for cyberware". Absolutely correct, and a good reason to go the adept route if you want to be able to chat to people.
See, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Adepts and sammies have their advantages.
Riggers? Riggers will always be better drivers than adepts. Vehicle Control Pool/vehicular increased reflexes. You can bust canon to give non-riggers a chance, but by canon there is no way an adept is going to out-perform a rigger in a vehicle, and that's not even getting into drones.
Deckers? Yeah, you know, before Otaku came out I was half-expecting someone to come up with a Machine Interface power for adepts. Post-otaku, I don't think it will ever happen. Deckers beat adepts, Otaku beat deckers like redheaded stepchildren. I don't here bitching about otaku taking over the decker's role in the party too often tho...
Social adepts vs mundane facemen. Tough call. In the short term, they're probably fairly even; the adept has the magic, the mundane has more skills and attributes to throw at it (and a little tailored bioware really helps as well). In the long-term... frankly, I adopt a "wait and see" attitude to this one. They haven't been around long enough for the impact to be truly felt.
Incidentally - GentlemanLoser? Not perchance the GentLoser from the Station Analysis list?
"Long-term, the adept can keep initiating and outstrip the samurai". We've done the math on this before in othre threads, and it's a.... really long frickin' term. I'm sure someone can look up the thread if they're desperate for the numbers, but iirc an adept had to initiate three or four times to catch up to a fully tricked-out starting samurai.
"The adept can geas his powers". Yep. Won't argue that point at all. But like it or not, a geas is a penalty. Somewhere along the line you are going to get royally screwed because of your geas. The samurai just gets on and does the job. Don't talk to me about the bloody stealth adept whose Improved Stealth was geased to the hours of darkness...
On the other hand
"Adepts don't set off metal detectors at airports etc". Too damn right. An adept can (in theory) go anywhere and do anything. A security mage can still ruin your day, but life is certainly easier in the international travel arena (just, you know, don't fly to Britain pretending to be mundane...)
"Adepts don't take social TN penalties for cyberware". Absolutely correct, and a good reason to go the adept route if you want to be able to chat to people.
See, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Adepts and sammies have their advantages.
Riggers? Riggers will always be better drivers than adepts. Vehicle Control Pool/vehicular increased reflexes. You can bust canon to give non-riggers a chance, but by canon there is no way an adept is going to out-perform a rigger in a vehicle, and that's not even getting into drones.
Deckers? Yeah, you know, before Otaku came out I was half-expecting someone to come up with a Machine Interface power for adepts. Post-otaku, I don't think it will ever happen. Deckers beat adepts, Otaku beat deckers like redheaded stepchildren. I don't here bitching about otaku taking over the decker's role in the party too often tho...
Social adepts vs mundane facemen. Tough call. In the short term, they're probably fairly even; the adept has the magic, the mundane has more skills and attributes to throw at it (and a little tailored bioware really helps as well). In the long-term... frankly, I adopt a "wait and see" attitude to this one. They haven't been around long enough for the impact to be truly felt.
Incidentally - GentlemanLoser? Not perchance the GentLoser from the Station Analysis list?
As with everything, all of this is subjective. Depending on how you like to run your game or what style you use. Maybe in your game Mages will neveramount to much, and in my own they are God Emperor-Giants amongst men.
Are either us really wrong? Not if we're having fun. That said I like these debates. I enjoy discussing the game.
Are either us really wrong? Not if we're having fun. That said I like these debates. I enjoy discussing the game.
it should be pointed out that otaku do not, in point of fact, beat the pants off of deckers, except in cybercombat. it should also be pointed out that, within the small subset of SR players who actually use the Matrix rules, there are plenty of people who complain about otaku. that's a discussion for a different thread, though.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Deckers? Yeah, you know, before Otaku came out I was half-expecting someone to come up with a Machine Interface power for adepts. Post-otaku, I don't think it will ever happen. Deckers beat adepts, Otaku beat deckers like redheaded stepchildren. I don't here bitching about otaku taking over the decker's role in the party too often tho... |
Where on Earth did you ever get that idea?
BTW, Otaku are not the be-all and end-all of decking.
| QUOTE |
Social adepts vs mundane facemen. Tough call. In the short term, they're probably fairly even; the adept has the magic, the mundane has more skills and attributes to throw at it (and a little tailored bioware really helps as well). In the long-term... frankly, I adopt a "wait and see" attitude to this one. They haven't been around long enough for the impact to be truly felt. |
Indeed. Cultured Pheromones actually provide a higher Charisma bonus than Kinesics 3, both of course being contingent on the proper circumstances. However, by Grade 3 every Social Adept should have Centering (Social Skills), which can add a buttload of extra dice to Social Tests. But by the same measure, a mundane Face could just increase their skills generally to a pretty fair degree in the time and karma cost it takes to hit Grade 3 (Max Cost = 63 Good Karma, Min. Cost = 22). Of course, at Grade three the Social Adept can pick up 6 dice in Inproved Ability (various Social Skills). Both can probably use Increase Attribute (Charisma) and (Willpower) spells cast on them by friendly mages.
Or the Social Adept can blow 1 pp (2 Imp. Ability [Social Skill] dice) and get Cultured Pheromones, which then puts them on a whole other level against the mundane... For a while.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Riggers? Riggers will always be better drivers than adepts. Vehicle Control Pool/vehicular increased reflexes. You can bust canon to give non-riggers a chance, but by canon there is no way an adept is going to out-perform a rigger in a vehicle, and that's not even getting into drones. |
Except for the Adept with Improved Ability: Vehicles skill(s) and a VCR.
What makes you think a GM would let them stack?
| QUOTE |
| Except for the Adept with Improved Ability: Vehicles skill(s) and a VCR. biggrin.gif |
Doooon't make me come over there with the goo gun...
Nngg.. okay, I can't resist this one more time:
<anti cyberadept rant>There is NO WAY IN HELL (imho) that an adept would WILLINGLY cripple his PRIMAL AND INTIMATE connection to magic, something that practically FLOWS IN HIS VEINS LIKE BLOOD by taking cyberware. Any adept taking cyberware - ANY CYBERWARE - voluntarily is a powergaming munchkin and should be repeatedly beaten with soggy leeks until he begs for mercy.</anti cyberadept rant>
Oh, crap.
So much for giving Sam Cultured Pheromones 2 after she hits Grade 4.
It was going to be sweet, too. After all the shit she's taken from family, friends, and acquaintances over the year for simply being magically-active, she was going to earn those suckers, too. It's going to be great.
So much for giving Sam Cultured Pheromones 2 after she hits Grade 4.
It was going to be sweet, too. After all the shit she's taken from family, friends, and acquaintances over the year for simply being magically-active, she was going to earn those suckers, too. It's going to be great.
right. and because that's how you view adepts, then everyone else must view them the same way, or they're just powergaming munchkins. get a job.
You saw the imho, right?
calling anyone who disagrees with you a powergaming munchkin hardly qualifies as "humble".
Wow. You guys were busy today.
I don't have the book so I only have one question: are there more pictures or what?
I don't have the book so I only have one question: are there more pictures or what?
Kind of petty, but then that's iyho.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| What makes you think a GM would let them stack? |
Why wouldn't the GM let them stack?
<jumps in>
I have played several adepts and seen many more that had a solid point's worth of essence in chrome. Double that number that have a bio/cyber combo.
I have played several adepts and seen many more that had a solid point's worth of essence in chrome. Double that number that have a bio/cyber combo.
ahem... [anti-anticyberadept rant]Any adept who(IMHO) doesn't get cyber/bio is a LOSER who doesn't deserve to survive in the SR world![/anti-anticyberadept rant]
yes. it's petty of me to get my back up when someone calls a viable character type that lots of people enjoy playing--and roleplaying--powergaming munchkin-only. it's petty of me to be rubbed the wrong way when someone jumps on the boards and starts throwing labels around.
oh, wait, no--my bad. i got confused: it's actually petty to call other players powergaming munchkins simply because you yourself are incapable of seeing the roleplaying possibilities in a given character type. whoops!
oh, wait, no--my bad. i got confused: it's actually petty to call other players powergaming munchkins simply because you yourself are incapable of seeing the roleplaying possibilities in a given character type. whoops!
Seriously, am I the only one who thinks it is debatable roleplaying at best for adepts - for any Awakened type, really - to voluntarily take cyberware? Really? Does nobody else think it's even a little bit out of character?
no. there's at least one other guy. he's slightly less petty, as i recall, because he refrains from throwing around names and whatnot.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| <anti cyberadept rant>There is NO WAY IN HELL (imho) that an adept would WILLINGLY cripple his PRIMAL AND INTIMATE connection to magic, something that practically FLOWS IN HIS VEINS LIKE BLOOD by taking cyberware. Any adept taking cyberware - ANY CYBERWARE - voluntarily is a powergaming munchkin and should be repeatedly beaten with soggy leeks until he begs for mercy.</anti cyberadept rant> |
Ignoring the insulting tone of your post ...
Why wouldn't an Adept that feels at one with his vehicle want to get the most out of it in any way he can? Or perhaps he had the VCR implanted before he knew he was Awakened. Or maybe he didn't have a choice somewhere in his background. Or ...
This can apply to any and all implants. Not everyone treasures their Essence equally. Not everyone even knows the relationship between Essence loss and Magical ability (in game).
Right now, I think the implant you most need is a sense of humour to identify the deliberately overdone anti-cyberadept rant, followed by a cerebral booster to correctly identify the "petty" comment as following on from your picking on the "humble" part of "imho".
Or you could counter the point logically - what IS the roleplaying rationale for an Awakened taking cyberware, given that implants "blind/deafen" (for want of a better term) part of the character's being?
Or you could counter the point logically - what IS the roleplaying rationale for an Awakened taking cyberware, given that implants "blind/deafen" (for want of a better term) part of the character's being?
I'm assuming you aren't talking to me, since I did reply giving roleplaying reasons why such implants would be taken.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Seriously, am I the only one who thinks it is debatable roleplaying at best for adepts - for any Awakened type, really - to voluntarily take cyberware? Really? Does nobody else think it's even a little bit out of character? |
Are you being serious or humorus?
That's like saying a mage would use only cash--no need to use that new fangled cred stick. Or for that matter, its like saying a Street Sam wouldn't something as archaic as a sword.
Its all IC choice. I don't see a reason to limit my characters. If that's your thing, go for it.
Edit: <runs self diagnostic> Nope. All systems functioning normaly.
No, you posted in between me reading mfb's comment and replying to it
Although I would question the assertion that by 2064 people wouldn't know about the relation between implanting cyberware and suffering reduced magical capability.
The problem I think I have most of all here is conveying what I mean. I view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense. Implanting cyberware is the equivalent to putting out your eyes to get FM radio. Is this making sense?
Although I would question the assertion that by 2064 people wouldn't know about the relation between implanting cyberware and suffering reduced magical capability.
The problem I think I have most of all here is conveying what I mean. I view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense. Implanting cyberware is the equivalent to putting out your eyes to get FM radio. Is this making sense?
Kev, the mage using a credstick instead of cash gets a definite benefit with no drawback. The mage with cybereyes just lost a chunk of the Power to get them. I'm saying, move away from the number-crunching and the swings and balances and get into the psychology of someone who would do that. Why would a mage deliberately cut off a piece of himself like that? There would have to be, imho (or imo, if you prefer mfb) a truly overwhelming reason for it.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Why wouldn't the GM let them stack? |
GM fiat.
I'm not saying I wouldn't. I'd have to consider it. On one hand, there's nothing to say it can't. On the other, the bonuses the adept gets for, IMO, their "becoming one with their [ride]" through the physical act of driving is offset by the fact that the VCR bypasses most of the physicality for a DNI into the vehicle. It replaces one type of mystic connection with another, basically. Or it could be seen that way.
Frankly, my immediate reaction would be: For your vehicle, yes. For remote-controlled vehicles... No. Not it Captain's Chair mode anyway. Remote driving your car back to you while "being" the car (can't recall the term) may be okay.
But some people, it seems, have drawn a line in the sand according to their own fiat.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Seriously, am I the only one who thinks it is debatable roleplaying at best for adepts - for any Awakened type, really - to voluntarily take cyberware? Really? Does nobody else think it's even a little bit out of character? |
It can be.
But how do you explain the burnout archetype? Or Burnout, the SB and novel character?
It happens sometimes. Either voluntarily, some people make what might logically be considered the act of a madman and get their arms chopped off and replaced with cyberarms, mundane or magician. It's a tool. Put the tool in the toolbox to get the job done.
Some might be willing to make the tradeoff after incidents out of their control. Some may use it to explain their powers, and deny they are actually magically active. They need to get Wired to explain to themselves why they react faster than 99% of the population around them.
People are, if nothing else, irrational. Magic's not going to make them more rational. The opposite, in fact, is more likely.
In point of fact, I view the Burnout Mage as the perfect example of what happens when a mage starts chopping bits of himself off to put cyberware in. Po-tay-to/Po-tah-to.
Indeed.
But there's no one reason why they do it. Nor does every cybermage become a burnout anymore than someone who drinks casually and in moderation is going to become an alcoholic (RL, not SR rules).
But there's no one reason why they do it. Nor does every cybermage become a burnout anymore than someone who drinks casually and in moderation is going to become an alcoholic (RL, not SR rules).
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Feb 7 2005, 08:18 PM) | ||
*ahem* "magic had henceforth had no application in (social skills)?" Nope, except for the Increase Attribute spells that provided bonuses for Charisma, Intelligence, or Willpower. Manipulations spells which alter appearance, control or influence thoughts and actions, and Detection spells which Compel Truth, serve as lie detectors, or otherwise manipulate people in social settings. Lest we forget, astral perception can also be used to influence social situations. |
Poor choice of terms, I admit; replace "magic" with "adept powers". That being said, those all involve significant limitations which in no way affect the Adept powers. All of them are trivial to detect unless masking is used, and must have either a separate subject or expensive foci to avoid taking TN penalties while they're up. An adept is detectable as well, but is nonetheless more subtle (I'm not aware of any canon way to determine an adept's powers except through reasoning and guesswork, nor the activity of those powers, while an active spell is an instant red flag). Even astral perception requires leaving oneself detectable and vulnerable in a way the adept powers don't.
More importantly, all of those apply equally well to a Social Adept. They have an expanded range of options, not a different range.
| QUOTE |
| Meanwhile, what do we have? Empathic Sense? Truly Game-breaking. Kinesics? Well, hell... They're physical adepts. What about this power to control their outward appearance to others doesn't make sense? Same goes with facial sculpt (No, sir. Never saw a homebrew version of this or worse before. No....) and melanin control. |
First off, I'd like to state that the existence of homebrew versions mean fuck-all to me. There are homebrew versions of billion-megaton nuclear weapons compressed into pistol bullets. That doesn't mean I use them, like them, or that their existence makes me any more likely to swallow something similar. That being said, I don't really have a problem with Facial Sculpt as I remember it (though I can't find my book right now). With kinesics, you ask what about the power to control their outward appearance to others doesn't make sense? The part where you bloody well get up to -3 to social TNs from it, that part. Perhaps more importantly, it isn't remotely balanced. Add it to IA: social skills to rake in the successes. But mundanes get tailored pheremones? No problem! We've got that too, over at the Adept table. Oh, and those edges? Yeah, we can add those, and they stack just fine. Hell, the Doc posted a build of a character that could easily hold his or her own in a gunfight, and could talk the pants off of a security guard.
| QUOTE |
| Why is it that magicians can do whatever they like, but somehow physads are limited because... For all I can tell... They just can't. "They just can't" isn't a reason. "They just can't" is whining without making any rational or sound argument based on actual game rules, policy, or the fact that this game evolves out of at least some concern for making it a viable long-term economic product. |
I may be wrong, but I think the marketspace is mostly filled for games with a fast power creep.
| QUOTE | ||
That's just ignorant. You disregard the fact that there are countermeasures to magical abilities, and combat tech and cyber that outclasses physad abilities. Besides, you assume that this means that there won't be any mundane PCs anywhere, ever, which is just... Wow. Wow. |
Way to make straw men.
There are now less countermeasures to magical abilities. There is now less combat tech and cyber that outclasses physad abilities. It's not a slippery slope, but it's looking disturbingly like a trend. And no, before you ask, having mundanes only be worth it for Riggers or Deckers isn't good enough.
~J
I limit Kinesics to one level and havn't decided on Improved Social. But all the rest are exactly what I was looking for - I still tweek the rules as I see fit, but I've always done that.
I love how no one comments on the rest of the book or calls any of that unbalancing. I can't wait until some adept gets tossed into Blackstone and the player comes here crying about how the writers hate Awakened characters.
You want powerful mundanes? Bang! Zip! Straight to the moon, Alice.
I love how no one comments on the rest of the book or calls any of that unbalancing. I can't wait until some adept gets tossed into Blackstone and the player comes here crying about how the writers hate Awakened characters.
You want powerful mundanes? Bang! Zip! Straight to the moon, Alice.
| QUOTE |
| The problem I think I have most of all here is conveying what I mean. I view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense. Implanting cyberware is the equivalent to putting out your eyes to get FM radio. Is this making sense? |
Yeah, sort of. It's still just how you feel. Most people probably feel differently. The thing of it is, you can't make a wide sweeping statement and then tag on "IM(H)O" and hope everyone is going to let it slide. Its like you told all of us that have a mage with cybereyes and a SL2 that we're doing it wrong. That's why you're taking flak.
Given the pros vs. the cons, its a bit of a no brainer to take some chrome. Especially with the Bioware/Mage errata. I've never used geasa but IIRC all my mages and fair number of my adepts burned a point of magic for implants.
Its cool that you feel so strongly about how your mages view things. Other's mages are little more liberal.
Does that make sense? To anyone?
| QUOTE |
| Kev, the mage using a credstick instead of cash gets a definite benefit with no drawback. The mage with cybereyes just lost a chunk of the Power to get them. I'm saying, move away from the number-crunching and the swings and balances and get into the psychology of someone who would do that. Why would a mage deliberately cut off a piece of himself like that? There would have to be, imho (or imo, if you prefer mfb) a truly overwhelming reason for it. |
See, now there you go implying that I'm a number cruncher.
Truly overwhelming? Same reason as the credstick. Its convenient. Look at what we're talking about here: the mage isn't goning to notice that he lost "one point" of Magic. Numbers don't apply to the IC magician. He won't know that if he tries to cast a "Force: 6" spell he'll take "Deadly Drain." All he knows is that he can see in the dark (Cybereyes w/ Low Light) and its way easier to "soak the drain" from that "Force: 5" spell (Trauma Dampener).
IMO, it adds flavor to the character. It is the 6th World after all.
| QUOTE |
| the mage isn't goning to notice that he lost "one point" of Magic. |
Bulldrek. He will notice, it can be felt. If you lose a point of Strength you feel it, that gallon of milk feels heavier even if you can still lift it. Whether you care is another issue, whether is was worth it still another. Every single Magical activity other than Enchanting is limited by the Magic Attribute.
DrJest: I don't see the problem. Not every single character feels the exact same way. You act as if every awakened character follows the Eagle Totem. There are many canon examples of awakened people getting ware, both voluntarily and not.
It doesn't have to be a 'munchkin-only' decision.
It doesn't have to be a 'munchkin-only' decision.
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| See, now there you go implying that I'm a number cruncher. |
<sigh> Again, that wasn't really how I meant it. Rephrase as "move away from viewing it through the filter of game statistics" or something.
It's 3AM here, be thankful I'm even halfway coherent :/
| QUOTE |
| Numbers don't apply to the IC magician |
Ironically, this is exactly my point as well, just from the other side. Phil Physad doesn't know that if he has Cyberware X implanted he can outperform Adept Ability Y. He knows that Adept Today Magazine ran that interview with Sid Cyberadept in which Sid talked all about how he feels the empty loss of his magic after having his twin cyberspurs implanted; he knows that he has always felt that energy running through him as natural as breathing; he knows that taking some of that away would be a horrible loss.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| I view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense. |
this, right here, is the essence of what's wrong with your argument: you view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense, and ripping out eyes blah blah. i, on the other, hand, have an adept who doesn't even view his abilities as being fully magical in nature; all his powers are geased to pieces of gear that he's modified with techno-magic. for him, the magic is more a part of his equipment than it is a part of himself. once he gets some cash, he's going to augment his abilities with cyberware, because he sees nothing special about the magic itself--it's simply a means to an end. i've got another that believes her physad powers come from various ancestor spirits that she calls on in time of need--when there's no need, from her POV, she doesn't have any powers at all. cyberware would make it more difficult to speak with the spirits, so she doesn't plan on taking any--but she certainly doesn't view her physad abilities as being anything inherent in herself; they are, in her view, completely external to herself. and then, i've got a sneaky scout-type adept who doesn't really care about any of this hocus-pocus magic stuff; all he cares about is doing his job as best he can. his physad abilities help with that, but so do certain pieces of cyberware.
Well, given the replies to my posts, I guess that was a waste of the last 50 minutes of my life.
So, onto something that can be answered, does the book have more pictures or what?
So, onto something that can be answered, does the book have more pictures or what?
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| DrJest: I don't see the problem. Not every single character feels the exact same way. You act as if every awakened character follows the Eagle Totem. There are many canon examples of awakened people getting ware, both voluntarily and not. It doesn't have to be a 'munchkin-only' decision. |
Look, all right, I'm sorry about the damn "munchkin" comment, it was meant to express my views light-heartedly and clearly not a single soul here got that.
Yes, I know about the canon examples of Awakened getting cyberware. It always struck me as poor characterisation, right from the word go.
Have I ever played a mage with cyberware? Yes. It was done TO him not BY him and was purely a roleplaying hook. He hated the cyberware and hunted down those responsible in a messy campaign of vengeance. We actually allowed the recovery of essence for removed cyberware (not canon, I know) so he had it all removed as time went on.
Would I ever play a mage who voluntarily got cyber? Not a chance.
Will others? Yes.
Should others? I think it's a bad idea, but it's their decision.
What do I really hate? That the whole attitude of this board is "go ahead and fuck up your magic, you know cyber's better". That every discussion of adept v sam always ends up in "and the adept can get some cyber implanted" like it was some casual matter of no great import instead of a life-changing event.
So yes, I make a lot of noise about it, but there's only one of me (all right, two now, there's someone else who thinks like me - I think I remember him posting now) and loads of you
I have to shout louder.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
this, right here, is the essence of what's wrong with your argument: you view an adept's perception of the magic within him as being like a sense, and ripping out eyes blah blah. i, on the other, hand, have an adept who doesn't even view his abilities as being fully magical in nature; all his powers are geased to pieces of gear that he's modified with techno-magic. for him, the magic is more a part of his equipment than it is a part of himself. once he gets some cash, he's going to augment his abilities with cyberware, because he sees nothing special about the magic itself--it's simply a means to an end. i've got another that believes her physad powers come from various ancestor spirits that she calls on in time of need--when there's no need, from her POV, she doesn't have any powers at all. cyberware would make it more difficult to speak with the spirits, so she doesn't plan on taking any--but she certainly doesn't view her physad abilities as being anything inherent in herself; they are, in her view, completely external to herself. and then, i've got a sneaky scout-type adept who doesn't really care about any of this hocus-pocus magic stuff; all he cares about is doing his job as best he can. his physad abilities help with that, but so do certain pieces of cyberware. |
And - I ask this purely out of curiosity - how will this adept react to the loss of magical ability that will inevitably come with implanting cyberware? If all your powers are already geased, you won't be able to geas them again for the loss of magic, will you?
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