the difference between 'us' and 'you' is, we allow for a broader range of roleplaying than you do. your attempt to "demunchify" adepts, or whatever, actually narrows the roleplaying options involved.

the techno-mage adept will study his gear to figure out why it doesn't work as well as it used to. he'll modify it further--initiation, in game terms--and get back on track.

Cyber is not necessarily better, but it can do things that magic cannot. It is also an integral part of society in the Sixth World. For example, a simple Datajack adds a whole new dimention to a person, enabling him to do way more than the mere .2 Essence loss would suggest.

I think we're now starting to go round in circles again (no offence meant to anyone here), so I'm going to call it a night. Sick as a dog or not - the only reason I'm still up (now I KNOW I'm ill, I just typed "sick as a god" three times before I got it right :/ ) - I need to get SOME sleep

Survival, staying at the top of the game, getting an edge over the competition, are all good IC reasons for getting cyber/bio, even for Awakened, especially the Awakened since people like DrJest would assume they wouldn't have cyber/bio.

Ya know, in reading both what mfb and DrJest have said, I can say that I can understand where both of them are coming from. While it is probably true for a large percentage of adepts out in the 6th world that they have a close connection to magic (ie the source of their power), there is absolutely nothing to say that there can't be techno-adepts out there like the one mfb is describing.

In one game, I'm playing a shaman who has geased two points of magic due to implant loss. Before a series of poor personal and professional decisions drove her to the shadows, she was an accomplished surgeon, but was losing her edge to younger doctors, closer to the cutting edge than she was. To try to keep her edge, to try to simply keep up, she eventually got a sleep regulator, datajack, chipjack + driver, enhanced articulation, and a few other things. Getting part of her magic cut out of her was a small price to pay for the ability to work quadruple shifts without needing to sleep.

It might seem a little 'munchy' but if someone puts just a little thought into their character, it's not all that hard to come up with reasons why an awakened would have cyberwear.

Why are there more full magicians than aspected mages and adepts? My guess is that the mana level is still too low. People with the strongest natural talent on their own receive enough of a boost from the current mana level to awaken fully. Sort of a punctured balloon effect. As the people with the strongest connections to magic are full mages, and the stronger talents are the more likely to awaken, the result is more full mages than aspected. As the mana level rises more, people with less natural talent in dealing with magic will become awakened as adepts, and there will eventually be more adepts than full mages - ala Earthdawn.

Why would an awakened character ever get cyberware? Why would anyone ever get cyberware? Why would you be willing to trade your arm, which works pretty well, with something someone else designed and built, and which will need to be fixed occasionally rather than healing on its own? Or why would you ever be willing to have someone remove your eyes and replace them with machines? The whole idea of cybernetic implants is dehumanizing enough to vanilla humans, let alone the awakened. If you can buy someone replacing a perfectly good arm to get an edge in combat then you should be able to buy a mage doing the same thing.

My magic just isn't good enough. I'm not as good a mage as the guy on that team. But if I could just throw spells faster than him, maybe being less powerful wouldn't matter...

Little Bill, I would seriously consider trading a limb for a datajack. Dehumanization? Why care about dehumanization if you're becoming something better? Likewise, for a magicuser, there's an entire world of abilities, of enhancements out there. Why would I cut myself off from that when it would just cost a small part of my gift? There's plenty more to go around…

~J

This thread is 90% subjective. It's never really going to get anywhere. As for my comments about the original quote, I still say the guy's reaching all over the map, and his point is fairly incoherent. So there's the idea that the game is "furry" (whatever the heck that means exactly). I don't really see how that original quote refers to that idea, really.

The guy's point is that he thinks the powers are mostly crap. He thinks that for different reasons for each power, but we don't need uniformity of reasons for a thing to be true. That being said, my problem with the powers deals only with a fairly small subset, so again I can't argue for or against most of his points, but I really don't think it's either "reaching all over the map" or incoherent in the least.

~J

Okay, well, umm, what's there to discuss about that? My only reply would be "that's nice." There's eight million tangents of discussion on this thread and none of them mean anything to someone's opinion that he just thinks some powers are crap.

EDIT: And by incoherent, I mean he doesn't seem to have a particular reason why he thinks the powers are crap. He seems to dislike each one for a seperate reason. For the most part, he just seems to have a lot of random issues.

Basically, just sounds like the original quote is a list of opinions. Which is all well and good, he's got his opinions, but unless he's got a point, there's not much to argue. I can say I like pie. Pie is tasty. That's my opinion, you can't really argue it. That's basically what I get out of the quoted original post. There's nothing I can find to discuss, really.

Remember the movie Super Size Me? Eating fast food is a horribly dangerous health risk. You're putting loads of toxins into your body that overwork your liver trying to expel from your body. The food itself is mostly the bad kinds of fats and useless carbs, which lead to severe weight problems. Most fast food is loaded with hormones and perservatives, many of which are linked to cancer.

This is why noone eats fast food. Ever. There are no fast food restaurants in existence, because noone wants to kill themselves putting something in their body that is so obviously unhealthy and dangerous. Oh, and people ride bikes everywhere, don't smoke or drink (and *especially* don't drink and drive), don't watch TV or look at a computer screen for more than 40 minutes without taking a break to rest their eyes, always wear earplugs when using something that gives off enough noise to damage your ears (like a vacum cleaner), never forget to brush their teeth, and take at least two dozen nutritional supplements a day, because everyone is supremely conscious of their health and would never do something to endanger it.

I really hope everyone caught the irony of that, or I will have lost my faith in the intelligence of the average Dumpshocker.

You have faith?!?

And what is intelligence?

Hi DrJest. Small world!

I'm not GentLoser from SA, but GentlemanLoser. I had to drop my name after my first couple of posts there, too much confusion and people thinking I was just out to cause problems for an established member! But I've not been to the list in ages!

But SLA brings up a parallel. (Sorry for those that haven't played SLA Industries, check it out, the ideas are really good) During a long campaign (2+ Years) with 2 players, one played an Ebon, the other a Wraith/Frother/Shaktar (Not at the same time! ;P ). The Non ebb player found with each of the characters he played he reached a point where there was nothing left for him to increase (that he wanted...) while the Ebon was still trying to decide whether to pump Ebon Guard, Red/Blue Thermal, RF, etc...

The Ebon made a better sniper than the Wraith (RF), was better in Melee combat than either the Frother/Shaktar (Ice Blade). And the straw on the camels back for the non ebb player was when after every BPN he was nearly broke due to repairing his armour. The ebon saved up and purchased a MAL canon (as really, he had nothing else he needed to spend his cash on...

I can see the same thing happening here. Want to play a gun Adept. A mage with Enhanced aim, a force 1 +3 Initiative spell etc... Want to play a stealth Adept. A mage with Invs, and Levataion...

I don't have a problem with the general idea of social adepts, but from the descriptions, it does sound like something that could upset the balance of a game. Adepts can throw a lot of extra dice into combat, but a sammie can generally keep up with or even surpass them. With social abilities, though, getting a -3 TN modifier and 6 extra dice means that a PC negotiator will win against nearly anybody.

That's too much. It makes it hard for the GM to come up with any challenge in that area without being either cheesy, or metagaming, or both. It also makes an entire category of specialists that people have been playing suddenly become second-rate to worthless. I think both of those things are valid game-balance issues, which should have been considered more.

And that starting character would have used up all his Power Points. And that is 6 extra dice for only 1 social skill.

Cul Pheromones Level 2 gives a bonus of 4 extra dice for all social skills. Also according to the books, the NPC negotiator will not go above a certain limit no matter the nmber of successes the PC have. No problems there.

ah, they're not that bad. i, myself, have the heart of a vegetarian.

...for, y'know, breakfast, most mornings.

Just wanted to throw one more thing into the ring before this burgeoning flame-fest dies out in a round of hearty back-patting and good humour... For some reason, most posts happen on this board whilst I'm in bed. It's almost as if some people live in different time-zones.

The whole cyber-adept thing is definately something than can, does and will happen - for those of you lucky enough to posess a copy of Shadowbeat read the bit on magic in pro sports. I don't have my book with me (yet another employer who seems to think I here to do things for them rather than look up references for petty arguments on DSF - just who do they think they are?) but there's a specific mention about certain sports allowing adepts, but ONLY if they have no cyber - even the addition of a datajack is enough to warrant explusion. Canon example of adepts WANTING to use some cyber to improve overall performance.

No one is denying that cyber is better for some things, magic (either spells or powers) for others. The argument from my POV is that there are already ways of doing things without using magic and that the SOTA in magic theory is reducing those elements and pushing a pro-magic agenda (natch). What should be happening is that new implants, new ways of dealing with impants, new portable technology, new weapons should also be available. Ask yourself this - what new stuff has actually become available since the books SSC, ST and CT (all 1st edition IIRC)? Compare to the new abilities of adepts, the new metamagic techniques, new spells etc...

There's no question that the additional priority requirements (or build points) for being awakened need to balance against the cost, but even with that additional cost it's still possible to outclass - in any area you choose - a non-awakened specialist EXCEPT for decking and (possibly) rigging. Even then there's nothing stopping an adept from taking computer 6 and stealing a hot deck on his first run (I've postulated elsewhere that a decker is merely someone with a deck).

Sure, Adepts are the future (and crunchy, like garlic bread) when the mana level is still rising, but it's still a game of technology and future dystopia - all the elements need to be balanced and there's no evidence that this is happening...

"I want a book with new cyber- and bioware"

That's needed. But I can't help think it won't help the established Street Sam with 0.01 essence due to existing cyberware.

Just a quick idea. Choosing an awakend character give you a Mgic stat of 6 along side your essence of 6. Why not make Essence 12 for non awakened characters? (Or if that messes around to much with existing rules - target numbers etc..) have non awakened characters take 1/2 cost for installing all cyberware (make up your own fluff for this) giving them an equivalent 12 essence...

Not too broken. It doesn't matter how much space you have left for more 'ware, if you can't afford the damn stuff!

12 Essence versus 6 Essence + 6 Magic. Sorta even's out nicely.

<Disclaimer>
I have in no way thought this idea through! ;P
</Disclaimer>

That could be one way. Or lower the price of alpha and betaware so it's no longer ridiculous expensive. Essence 12 would be nice too.

Haven't checked the impact of such ideas.

Maybe I'm just hanging on to my old days of playing CP2020, but it would be nice to see a Sam able to sport a couple of cyber limbs (Which cost far too much imo) alongside a pair of cyber eyes, smartgun link, dermal plating, Max wired reflexes, maybe a cyber weapon or two and still have the choice to install more 'ware...



Another quick idea. If you want to give non awakened characters something to spend their karma on after they've maxed their weapon/decking/rigging skill of choice and any related skills/attributes why not give them the possibility of buying back essence with karma. Make it expensive, but the fluff could be something about them learning to live with the enhancements within thier bodies. Or something not setting breaking...

*Shrugs*

I don't think such a radical change is needed - maybe making it easier to actually implant or upgrade the stuff in game and allow some flexibility to cyber users would be enough. The classic example of the 0.01 essence sam is a good one - quite simply the only the thing he can improve EVER (barring lucky surgery rolls) is his skills and attributes (and most likely on charisma and willpower of those). The game is almost suggesting that such a character is short-term at best.

Imagine if that nano-tech could remove and replace cyber with non-invasive surgery and fill essence holes by default - want to upgrade? "sure, no problem" instead of "that'll take 3 months, hundreds of thousands of nuyen and there's a 50% chance you'lll die" would make so much difference to the average cyber user. I'm not sure it needs to allow for fully customisable load each run, but allowing some change would be useful.

Don't get me wrong - I like the surgery and healing rules as presented in M&M, but they're too... strict..? Maybe, the TNs need lowering, maybe access to the higher grade equipment needs to be easier and cheaper (as mentioned)... Give me something that shows that SOTA is indeed moving forward. Possibly that's a better idea than more NEW stuff - just making it easier to get the existing stuff and to change them when necessary without taking the risk of dying under the surgeon's knife. A few new cool toys would be nice - look for what M&M did for cyberlimbs (I like them now) and the routing/connectivity rules with the possibilities of DNI and transducers - it opens up new possibilities without taking things away from the other characters and makes that area of the game fun again without /adding/ anything particularly.


(EDIT: The radical change I refer to is giving characters 12 essence)

Actually, GentlemanLoser's comments have just reminded me of something.

I used to like CP2020 (don't laugh back there).

The chromebooks killed that game for me. Two things stand out in particular.

1) the presence of full body conversions which were desirable, but difficult to get (cf - cybermancy which, plainly, is NOT desirable and therefore not overpowered)

2) the "evolution" of the stupid "deckers that don't need decks" race - I can't even remember what they were called, but I remember complaining to my GM about that one. The words stupid and bloody were used in reverse order

OK, this probably wasn't in a chromebook, but it still pi$$ed me off.

LOL! Full body conversions were a no go. No PC could reasonably get hold of them and unless you went to scandinavia or had other High cost treatment, they would always leave you with cyberpyscosis... Cybermancy just seems to be SR's equivalent tech. The cost alone left these things in the hands of Corps. Much like Cybermancy.

I don't remember those types of deckers you mention, but they sound very similar to SR's Otaku (which I've not seen any rules for yet...).

IIRC The closest a PC could get to a Full Body Conversion was Total body plating and/or Armour weave. Or as many cyber body parts as they could get their hands on...

A problem with the generic lowering of cyberware essence costs is it just makes it more attractive to the awakended... Mages really don't need to be able to load up on more cyberware. Mundanes do.

Otaku were technically introduced in the Denver boxed set first. But he's talking about CP2020 and the Cybergeneration stuff.

On the topic of further advancement of cyber-characters, I'm in favor of a total revamp of the cyber rules which focused more on "cybernetic platforms" such as cyberlimbs that allowed for not only simple implantation of cyberware, but simple replacement, with very little Essence impact. Plug-and-play cyberware. Which doesn't extend to everything (you can't just plug in enhanced volume lungs) but could work for many things and I'm also in favor of using nanotech to make cyberware implantation faster, simpler, and less invasive. But that's something I probably won't be able to fight for until Rob says they are looking into SR4.

On the idea of the game getting "furry", that's possible. The game is definitely inspired by different things than it was in 1989. Blade Runner is ancient history, now it's the Matrix. Neuromancer was written before many new SR players were born. And even the line designers that plan the game's direction are influenced by those facts. Now, not everyone is going to like that, if they perceive it happening, but that's the way it is.

Demosthenes - I guess I hit a raw nerve? As I said, I've no idea which book it was, but I remember my friend buying it and a few of us discussing it.

I'm convinced that the full body conversions were not only possible but pretty easy to avoid cyberpsychosis with as the total cost of impants was a *lot* less. The problem was that it was prohibitively expensive and difficult to obtain, but I remember making a couple of characters with it...

Anyway, CP is dead. Long live SR

As one of the authors of both the pieces this GM reviewed, I could probably write a really long post refuting the negative criticism* and the way he obviously needs to go back and read all the magic stuff since Grimoire 2 (although Awakenings would probably be more of an eye-opener) on both adepts and Hermetic schools. However, I've done something like that before, and if anyone's really interested they should check the SOTA sub-forum for it.

Instead I've just got a couple of questions. It's been a few months now since SOTA64 came out, so I just want to know regarding this uber-adept phenomenon everyone seemed so scared...

- Has anyone encountered a practical case of the Way of the Speaker-abuse in their games?
- Are your players all playing these uber-adepts now?

* [note - For what it's worth, I would like to reiterate what I've said elsewhere. IA:Social Skills wasn't on the writers' plans and was a development call. As a GM I will not be allowing that particular IA. As a GM I also enforce the optional rule regarding Ways and Power costs.]

That's OK then. Let's agree to mention it no more.

*Getting off topic now...*

Probably for the Fireman or other utility ones. Ones no-one would want to get anyway! But I remember (and this is from years ago...) things like the Wiseman or Dragoon being really expensive. 16D6 + 64 springs to mind, so maybe it would be possible with Max humanity and getting a lot of 1's to roll, but on average, you'll be over the edge. (and that's without any of the optional extras! ;P)

Plug and play cyberware is a neat idea. Pop out your old cyberarm for the newest model! But again, things like this should be made harder for awakened characters.

Demonseed, check pg 36 of M&M for the ECU rules. Its basically what you're wanting (as far as limbs go). Personally, I don't see why you couldn't apply it to skull/torso replacements as well, maybe halving or 1/3rding the essence cost of a certain amount of replacements.

I don't think this is an SR4 thing - maybe SOTA65?

The system is already there and works and another year of nanotech advancement is all that's required. In fact, I like this more and more...

In fact, we're not far off with the current rules for cyberlimbs - they've even got quick release mechanisms so you can outfit a couple of arms with different loads and change on the fly already...

I don't even see a reason to make things more difficult for the awakened and I certainly wouldn't advocate increased essence cost or anything like as it flies in the face of the SR system. It's going to be a self regulating thing as, almost by necessity, the implants required will start to be those costing more essence. Sure, a mage may take a datajack, some memory and eyes (and geas the essence loss), but he's going to scoff at spending a full essence point on an arm that doesn't give any immediate advantages and still have to get the other stuff as well. The modular nature of the cyberware will mean that the /package/ will cost less than the total individual components which is where the advantage comes back to the SamDeckerRigger (he can afford the whole package and resultant benefits where the adept or mage can't). I'd worry about a starting mage who's already geased two points of magic (I'd consider one to be almost normal), three is going to be pushing him well on the way to burn-out...

Actually, isn't most of this stuff already there in the rules..?

Headware comms packages, eyeware packages, cyberlimbs that can contain other implants at lower|nil essence cost all exist - like I said before, what's needed is not new STUFF, but new ways of using them, new tricks and a refinement of the tech. That combined with easier surgery has to make a big difference...

The only problem that view leads to is (apart from the extra 25/30 points and characterisation) why play anything but a mage? They get to have all the cool cyberware, cast spells, summon and more! The game mechanics push people away from choosing mundane characters.

"I take Beta Titanium Bone lacing, these cool cultured Bio ware enhancements, a pumped up max strength cyber arm with cyber weapon and anything else I can lay my hands on. Summon my Elemental, draw it's power and cast my quickened boost cyberarm strength along with my force 1 Increased reflexes. I'll leave my Improved invisiblilty untriggered for the moment, but make sure my anchored Heal spell is triggered to cast when I reach deadly damage. Oh, and I got 8 sucess on my Improved Aim spell, which I use with my Big Gun ™ that I hold ambidextrously with my cyber weapon. All my cyberware is geased off, and I have a spell to counter every situation... I can scout with astral projection, kill spirits, sneak, fight in melee, snipe from a distance. You want me to do anything, I'm your man..."

Fun.

i think the stress and surgery rules in M&M are too clunky and complicated, but i don't think they're too strict. with them, there's at least a minor chance that someone's cyberware might get busted up. comparitively, adepts are fragile creatures; it's very, very easy to lose a point of magic.

Tarantula and Xirces,

I agree with you, the rules are partially there. But they are also only partially there and are not in the main book, but an accessory book. That's why I'd like to see an SR4 someday, to address cyberware at its basic fundamentals in a main rulebook and stress its modular nature at the very base as opposed to new rules in a later sourcebook. Also, despite the rules in M&M, cyberware implantation and invasiveness is still very cumbersome to the cyber character, which is one of the main complaints when the old adept vs. cybersam argument comes in.

Cool. Then remove the priority or build costs for mages, make everyone a Physical Mage with options of taking magical power, astral projection, or cyberware. Wanna be a street sam/rigger/decker? Don't spend any of your points on taking adept powers or magical prowess (or however that power is named) and spend all your essence/magic rating on cyberware. Got 1 point left over as a Sammy? Consider bonding a weapon focus. Or by a small Adept power or small spell.

Characterisation and choice for everyone. As of now, Even the most cybered street sam should start as a mage...