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Birdy
QUOTE (GentlemanLoser)
wink.gif *Getting off topic now...*

Probably for the Fireman or other utility ones. Ones no-one would want to get anyway! wink.gif But I remember (and this is from years ago...) things like the Wiseman or Dragoon being really expensive. 16D6 + 64 springs to mind, so maybe it would be possible with Max humanity and getting a lot of 1's to roll, but on average, you'll be over the edge. (and that's without any of the optional extras! ;P)

Plug and play cyberware is a neat idea. Pop out your old cyberarm for the newest model! But again, things like this should be made harder for awakened characters.

That is what the therapy rules where for! Actually most basic borgs worked quite nicely in the world of CP. Without all this "being one with your inner self" crap and no mage-junkies around, a good nice Psychological theraphie and a nice, friendly corporate patron (about the only way to get a Borg body - money is more scarce in Cp) would get you a

Alpha (classic metal man/woman)
Geminie (Think Arnie as T800)
Brimstone (Firefighter)
Wingman (Pilot)
<Original Infiltrator Borg>
<Original Cop Borg> (Robocop)
<Original Underwater Borg>

and still leave you human enough.


Birdy
Birdy
QUOTE (DrJest)
I think we're now starting to go round in circles again (no offence meant to anyone here), so I'm going to call it a night. Sick as a dog or not - the only reason I'm still up (now I KNOW I'm ill, I just typed "sick as a god" three times before I got it right :/ ) - I need to get SOME sleep

No problem Doc. Just stay where you are. The friendly guys from the NID will be there any minute.

Those freudians can really waste your day, can't they.


Birdy
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Cool. Then remove the priority or build costs for mages, make everyone a Physical Mage with options of taking magical power, astral projection, or cyberware. Wanna be a street sam/rigger/decker? Don't spend any of your points on taking adept powers or magical prowess (or however that power is named) and spend all your essence/magic rating on cyberware. Got 1 point left over as a Sammy? Consider bonding a weapon focus. Or by a small Adept power or small spell.


Something like that would be how I'd like to see an SR4, but probably with a new character creation system that gets away from the Priority System (which is inherently limited to roles) and more towards a point-based system where characters can choose to buy facets of their character from everything (magic, cyber, skills, gear, etc.) but have to decide on the trade-offs themselves.

But that's just me. wink.gif
lorthazar
Sure a PhysAd should have an edge in raw skill over any other charater in the field they specialize in. However they should also suffer from every penalty that could concievably apply.

There is a major antimagic sentiment in the world so why not a +1 to +8 TN for ALL social tests if you are known Physad. In some cases he might be better off not being seen at all. Conversely in some areas he might get a -1 to -3 TN becuase of emapthy for physads. Seems unfair? Life is not Fair.

Physad also have this tendency to develop powers that help them survive better, so if they go for one of those social abilities you have the right to examine the physads actions so far and determine if his subconcious really wants this. I'm not saying don't give it to him, I'm saying that he should develop some other powers as well.

Magical types are also known for having difficulty with the Matrix so feel free to give any Physad/Decker Jack Itch and the same goes for Physad/Riggers.

I have a much more CyberPunk veiw of the future so the social penalties for Cyberware are vastly reduced. Not only that, but I have included edges that allow a mundane to put a limited amount of cyberware/bioware in their system without losing essence/ gaining body index.

As for the rant that began this topic I do see this man's point. Everyone can get technology, cyberware, and bioware, but mundanes can't use a drop of magic. This gives even the Enchanter a HUGE advantage over mundanes. Now things could be done to rectify this, but they would all be house rules. We as Players, GM's, and Consumers should put our foot down and ask for a little equilibrium.

Xirces
QUOTE (mfb)
i think the stress and surgery rules in M&M are too clunky and complicated, but i don't think they're too strict. with them, there's at least a minor chance that someone's cyberware might get busted up. comparitively, adepts are fragile creatures; it's very, very easy to lose a point of magic.

Oh, I *like* the stress and damage rules as it adds a more fun level to playing a Sam - what's the point in having all that metal if it don't get broke... Even Robocop was at his best having been smashed into little pieces (nearly). Smashed and damaged cyber should happen and characters it should be repaired or replaced. Adds to the fun. In the same way (I expect) that the potential loss of magic is fun for adepts. Adepts can Geas, Sams can get it fixed (and I know the geas is more limiting in the long run and GM dependant)

What I object to is the implant surgery rules (or more specifically the TNs involved). If Sammy wants to remove his WR2 and replace with a higher grade, have you actually worked out how tough it will be - have a quick look at
this

(you'll need to scroll down to get to the surgery section. I *shouldn't* have to point out that it's not my web site...).

It's an extreme example, but here the doctor needs 4+ successes against a TN of 9 otherwise the surgery fails. This is after spending millions on the gear and planning (over two weeks of a doctor's time). It's only an example, but shows quite well IMO just how tough getting any replacement 'ware is IN GAME. Maybe all that's needed is reduced TNs and thresholds for surgery to encourage 'ware users to upgrade/change/adjust/adapt... The negative options are too easy to accrue and the positive options too difficult to achieve as things stand.

I don't personally like the idea of everyone having access to magic. I still think it's a little early in the mana cycle for that...
Cochise
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Magical types are also known for having difficulty with the Matrix so feel free to give any Physad/Decker Jack Itch and the same goes for Physad/Riggers.

The only "known" person to suffer from something like that is Sam Verner ...
Canon material does not include any other difficulty than the Essence Loss and the subsequent Magic Loss when it comes to implants or interaction with Matrix / Decking or Assuming The Body / Rigging
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
I don't personally like the idea of everyone having access to magic. I still think it's a little early in the mana cycle for that...


Keep in mind that my idea isn't that everyone has access to magic, but that magic vs. mundane isn't such a clear-cut black and white choice. That magic, like cyberware, has a scale.

Technically, everyone in the game has access to magic right now at character creation. Despite magic being limited to approximately 1% of the population, when it comes to Shadowrun characters being made, there are no rules to keep an entire team from choosing to be magical if they want to be. They all potentially have access to it.
mfb
QUOTE (lorthazar)
There is a major antimagic sentiment in the world...

where are you getting this information? there are some people who hate and fear magic, but there are many, many more people who accept it as a part of everyday life.

QUOTE (lorthazar)
Magical types are also known for having difficulty with the Matrix so feel free to give any Physad/Decker Jack Itch and the same goes for Physad/Riggers.

any game in which the GM starts slapping characters with Flaws willy-nilly isn't going to be a very fun game for anyone--including the GM, since most of his players will probably walk after he pulls that stunt a few times. and, as cochise noted, there's no canon support for this viewpoint.

QUOTE (lorthazar)
As for the rant that began this topic I do see this man's point. Everyone can get technology, cyberware, and bioware, but mundanes can't use a drop of magic.

except that wasn't really the guy's point. he was railing against the specific powers introduced in SOTA:64, not magic in general. and the advantage isn't all that great; yes, an Awakened type could theoretically be a badass cyborg and a badass mage/physad/whatever--but there are very few games out there that hand out enough karma and cash to do so. Awakened types already require 2-3 times the karma a sam or decker does in order to upgrade their main area of expertise; getting cyberware directly impairs that area of expertise, so the character requires even more karma to upgrade. i really don't see a problem, there.
lorthazar
QUOTE (Cochise)
The only "known" person to suffer from something like that is Sam Verner ...
Canon material does not include any other difficulty than the Essence Loss and the subsequent Magic Loss when it comes to implants or interaction with Matrix / Decking or Assuming The Body / Rigging

Well i consider that Canon enough. Especially since it was part of the tip off that he might be magical. Then again here I go trying to add sense to a game with Elves, again.
GentlemanLoser
At the moment, SR promotes characters to have occupation or classes. Mage, Sammy, Addy, Rigger, Face, Decker, etc. The problem is, there is nothing to distingush between the occupations. A mage could install a level 3 VCR, geas away the loss, be a kick rear rigger and able to bust out the best spells when folks find his van and try to kill him, not his vehicles/drones. Same arguement can be applied to all the other character 'types'.

Going back to my earlier exagerated example, imagine a Mage with a Strength of 1, an Alpha cyberlimb with max strength, a force 1 +3 refelxes spell, a force 6 + cyber strength spell and for kicks a decrease body/reflexes spell on top.

But we're missing one thing out. You want everything? Not worried about a slightly slower advancement? Play a Physical Mage. Cyberware, Adept Powers, and all the spells you could ever want...

For stealth. Combine Increased Ability: Stealth, traceless walk, improved invisibility and levitation (and any other spells I've missed out). Slap on as many focuses as needed (without going over your magic stat). Voila.

cyber.gif
audun
QUOTE (GentlemanLoser)
Cool.  Then remove the priority or build costs for mages, make everyone a Physical Mage with options of taking magical power, astral projection, or cyberware.  Wanna be a street sam/rigger/decker?  Don't spend any of your points on taking adept powers or magical prowess (or however that power is named) and spend all your essence/magic rating on cyberware.  Got 1 point left over as a Sammy?  Consider bonding a weapon focus.  Or by a small Adept power or small spell.

Characterisation and choice for everyone.  As of now, Even the most cybered street sam should start as a mage...

Please no! Completly rewriting the the setting isn't the way to fix game balance problems. Also cybersamadeptmages are IMHO cheesy. I'm quite certain that others share this opinion. Combat mages is fine, but they should still be mages IMHO.

There are some ways to fix these problems:
More diversified cyber/nano/bio is certainly not a bad idea, so please write down some good proposals and send them to Rob for inclusion in SOTA2065. I don't have any good ideas for new ware that aren't gamebreakers. (though re-introducing the multi-tasking encephalon sounds good).

Having SOTA making upgrades and implants cheaper and less risky isn't unrealistic though it may be a gamebreaker. Since the balance between mundanes and awakened really isn't a problem before you reach the level where the mundane doesn't know how to spend karma points, couldn't this simply be fixed with the cash for karma rules? Or at least stash for karma? Paying karma to get your fixer to arrange a top notch Swiss cybersurgeon reduces the risk with upgrades. Cashing in on a few favors reduces the price of deltaware (cash for karma that is).

As for Essence regain: my understanding was that even though you couldn't regain Essence you could reuse it. So if you install alphaware instead of regular you could use the "freed" points for something else? So what do you need Essence regain for?

Doubling Essence for mundanes is a gamebreaker. Bad idea.

The last option I can think of, which hasn't been mentioned, is to make awakened more vulnerable. There's drain and you risk loosing MP , but that's it. SR is one part high fantasy and one part cyberpunk. What if it was one part dark fantasy instead? What if there was some things that made it undesirable to be Awakened? The metaphor of selling your soul to the devil is a good one. Horrors is one thing, but I had this idea where magic itself was tainted. Awakened characters had the risk of going bad/mad. Sort of like a magiopsychosis instead of cyberpsychosis where in the end the character became Toxic/Corrupted. The more powerful, the higher the risk. Suddenly, beeing mundane wouldn't be so bad afterall. Don't know exactly how it should work, but it would certainly stop people from complaining about über-adept/mages. It would create a limit for awakened characters which it had severe consequenses to extend, much like cybermancy does it for mundanes. It would of course also fuel the torch of witchhunters everywhere devil.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
At the moment, SR promotes characters to have occupation or classes. Mage, Sammy, Addy, Rigger, Face, Decker, etc. The problem is, there is nothing to distingush between the occupations.


Exactly, and that's what I consider an awkward flaw in SR3. Games like D&D have occupations and classes, but those classes have unique abilities related to that class. SR has an odd situation where by design it encourages classes but mechanically doesn't back that up.

To solve that, there are two directions you can go. The direction of mechanically-enforced classes, ala D&D, or move away from classes as little more than an example of a way a character could develop. My preference for SR is towards the latter.
mfb
you're ignoring the costs involved in doing stuff like that, GL. a geas isn't something you just slap on because you think it'd be cool; it's a limitation on your ability to use your magic. where is this riggermage going to find the skill points to be both a badass rigger and a badass mage, when he's already spent most of his points or priorities on magic and money? where is this ubermage going to find the cash to get a sustaining focus for those awesome spells of his, when he blew all his money on cyberware?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Please no! Completly rewriting the the setting isn't the way to fix game balance problems. Also cybersamadeptmages are IMHO cheesy. I'm quite certain that others share this opinion. Combat mages is fine, but they should still be mages IMHO.


I don't really think it'd be a complete rewriting of the setting. Afterall, a lot of the stuff is already possible in the game, if a character starts with magical potential and then invests in other things. And I absolutely agree that cybersamadeptmages can be cheesy as hell, and that's not what I'd want. I don't want a character that can do everything (which, mind you, can be done already). But is a Pueblo cyber-mercenary who talks to a totem and can, with great difficulty, interact with spirits cheesy or overpowered? Not necessarily. Is a Parisian Avant-Garde thaumaturgist who has a wireless headware cyberdeck cheesy or overpowered? If the rules don't allow them to do everything, but allow them to choose freely, it's not really a bad thing.
GentlemanLoser
*Shrugs* Explaining away a geas moves this more into exploring chracterasion and ideas than looking at the mechanics. The point I was trying to make with the Rigger/decker mage (who might not be able to start with the best deck or level 3 VCR) was that an awakended version could start with exactly the same equipment as a mundane one (but points build would have to be used...) and be better outside of rigging/decking. With the number of skills in SR it shouldn't be too hard to start with both (for example) computer use and sorcery at 6.

As for the exagerated character example, that would be achievable a little down the line. But a mage staring with the arm/spur the spells listed and at leat a force 1 focus for +3 initiative shouldn't be too hard. Again with two skills at 6...

Maybe I am off with the points it would take to start a character like this, but I'm, sure you could failry close...
lorthazar
Did everyone miss the part of MITS that describes the magically gifted as different with a capital D? They are extremely rare, if they existed today for every hundred people you pass on the street there would be one magically active person. Now toss in the the fact that some of them are never trained and some of them, their talent is so weak they might as well be mundane. So let's say it one in two hundred and we'll say two thirds of those can cast spells. So you have one in three hundred people who can cast spells. Now at least 75% of those are either hermits, shadowrunners, or corp wage mages. So, there is 1 spellcaster out there among 1199 common people. Now take in to account the Toxic Shamans, Blood mages, Insect Spirits and countless other evil oddities that you know will be plastered over the 6 o'clock news. People may have accepted magic is real, but they don't understand it. What mankind does not understand it fears and what it fears it either tries placate or destroy. Right now the lines are divided how long do you see them staying that way?
Jrayjoker
As long as there is a potential for the abuse of a system someone will abuse it.

OTOH, I personally see no need to rewrite what is already pretty well established in canon, and the inherent limitations are OK by me as well. The biggest thing for me (and by extension my camapigns) is that there is a reason for the multiple roles.
Demonseed Elite
But...

Sure, magically-talented people are rare according to the description, but the rules for character creation don't really reflect it. If you play with 6 people, and all six want to play magically-talented characters, they can. Unless the gamemaster pulls rank and says they can't.

Also, most people may not understand magic, and they may have some fears associated with it, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a hatred of magicians. For example, take our modern day world. Very few people are geneticists or computer engineers. Most people have no true understanding of the complex science of genetics or advanced programming. They don't understand it. There are fears associated with it. People fear "frankenfoods" and human cloning. They fear identity theft and cyberterrorism. Without really understanding the complexities of it. But, in most cases, this doesn't translate to people hating computer engineers or geneticists.
mfb
yes, but in order to get a decent deck, you'll need to spend 25-30 build points on cash; in order to be Awakened, you need to spend a similar amount. that's 50-60 build points gone, and you haven't even spent anything on attributes yet. this is not going to be a very versatile character.
Jrayjoker
Hey, just like in real life, if you want to do everything, you can't do it all well.
Nikoli
Sick, though:
Shapeshifter Physad with empathic healing...
Jrayjoker
Can a shapeshifer be a physad, or are they limited in their magic choices?
Nikoli
Yes, they can be a physad, but aside from GM fiat, powers only work in human form
mfb
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. yes, if you want to try to build a viable skill selection using 16 build points (assuming all of your stats are 3), go for it.
lorthazar
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)

Also, most people may not understand magic, and they may have some fears associated with it, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a hatred of magicians. For example, take our modern day world. Very few people are geneticists or computer engineers. Most people have no true understanding of the complex science of genetics or advanced programming. They don't understand it. There are fears associated with it. People fear "frankenfoods" and human cloning. They fear identity theft and cyberterrorism. Without really understanding the complexities of it. But, in most cases, this doesn't translate to people hating computer engineers or geneticists.

True, but have you heard of any hacker or geneticist turning a person into a bug, fireballing a gas station, or mindcontrolling innocent coeds. Nope? I didn't think so. That is the fundamental difference. ID theft is a pain, but it holds no candle to the primal fears that are ingrained into humans. So your comparison makes little sense. Now you could compare mages to militias saying that there are good and bad, but as always people, as a whole, concentrate on the bad to the exclusion of all else.
GentlemanLoser
Ohh... Nice SS PhyAd....

mtb the character is exchanging around 15 stat points or 30 skill points to be able to astrally project, summon stuff and cast the great low force spells. That's got to be more versatile...

Demonseed Elite
The main problem I see now, mfb, is one of options. Yeah, a magically-talented character who invests in decking, rigging, cyberware, etc. down the line during play trades in some of their magical power (such as money that could be spent on foci, essence that factors into their Magic Rating, karma spent on skills that could go towards initiation). But, they have the option. A character who does not start out magically-talented never has the option to invest in magical development later on during play. It's just not a freedom they have. In that way, the magically-talented become more flexible characters than mundanes, not less.
GentlemanLoser
Dammit!! The nails been hit on the head better than I could explain! wink.gif
Nikoli
Lemme see,
Unarmed 6
Stealth 6
Athletics 6
Etiquette 1/Street 3

Covers the basics for a physad
never said it was a good idea, just a sick one as you are healing everyone up so fast it's not funny.
mfb
sure, but to me, the fix for that is to just make initiation something anyone can do. make the first grade about 3-4x as expensive, karma-wise, for mundanes, depending on what type of mage they end up being. i can also see priority C and D aspected mages--maybe they can only summon one single type of spirit, or only cast one spell category, or only perceive/project.

what i'm railing against is this idea that if you're a mage, you can just slap in some cyberware and not have to pay a price for it. most of the arguments i've seen ignore the very real costs--in terms of money, in terms of karma, in terms of lost magic--that cybering up entails. i agree with you, DE: it'd be awesome to add more options for characters, even post-chargen. i agree that mages have more options. i disagree that those options necessarily make mages more powerful, which seems to be the prevailing view of several other posters.
Demonseed Elite
I'm in agreement with ya then, mfb. wink.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (lorthazar)
Did everyone miss the part of MITS that describes the magically gifted as different with a capital D? They are extremely rare, if they existed today for every hundred people you pass on the street there would be one magically active person.

That's not rare at all.

~J
mfb
no kidding. there are fewer people than that in the US Army.
Aes
That'd make, what, 60 million magically active people worldwide? nyahnyah.gif
lorthazar
Really? I live in a village of about 600 and we have 30 in the army. By MITS we'd only have 6 magically active people. By my adjusted figures we would have a 50% chance of having one spellcaster.
Jrayjoker
And that doesn't feel too rare to me...
mfb
the US Army is, as i recall, roughly 500,000 strong. the US population is 295,424,378. there would be a thousand times as many Awakened as there are soldiers in the US Army.
lorthazar
True by the figures given the number of Awakened in the current USofA would be over five times the size of the army, but that still makes them rare. You are concentrating on the wrong part of it. Imagine the ninety-nine people that surround your one Awakened person and then suddenly (s)he is rare and different.
mfb
yes, the number of Awakened in the current US would be over five times the size of the army. it'd also be over ten times, over a hundred times, and almost over a thousand times. people serving in the army aren't all that 'rare and different'; i don't see why the Awakened would be seen as being as special as you're making out. everybody will have met an Awakened person; most people will have at least one Awakened friend, or at least an Awakened associate.
U_Fester
I have to agree here. What would be the differnce of someone being a dwarf in the future and someone being Native American now? They both would still be people, everyone knows someone who is one or the other and at the end of the day they are still just people (meta or not).
hahnsoo
Remember that the 1 out of 100 also includes the folks that did not know they had Awakened talents. It includes folks who are called by a totem later in life (as opposed to when they were growing up). And due to the social structure of the Awakened (often sequestered in "special" classes or set up in their own Corporate department or have their own initiate groups), it is a little less likely socially to rub shoulders with a mage as a common citizen. Shadowrunners, however, are far from common...
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (lorthazar @ Feb 8 2005, 06:47 PM)
Magical types are also known for having difficulty with the Matrix so feel free to give any Physad/Decker Jack Itch and the same goes for Physad/Riggers.

The only "known" person to suffer from something like that is Sam Verner ...
Canon material does not include any other difficulty than the Essence Loss and the subsequent Magic Loss when it comes to implants or interaction with Matrix / Decking or Assuming The Body / Rigging

In Virtual Realities (at the time the Secrets of Power trilogy), this WAS canon. It no longer is canon. This was one of the many magic retcons done in SR2 and SR3.
lorthazar
And I have to bring reality back in for a moment. It's nice we all think Politically Correct and are very accepting people. The problem is that Awakened would be a minority like Gamers are a minority. How many of you have bemoaned not being able to find a group to play with? We are at least twice as prevalent as the Awakened will be. Are we accepted for our gifts of intelligence, creativity and insight. Sometimes yes, but most often no. Do you think some one who can summon spirits, cast spells and potentially peer into your very soul would be treated any better? Sure, I would treat the Awakened as just another Joe Schmoe and I am sure all of you would too. The fact is that a larger percentage while not actively trying to kill them, might shun them out of the ostrich reflex.
Kagetenshi
I'm not saying they'd be accepted. Look at the racism still in existence today. That being said, though, they're most explicitly not rare. So some never realize their powers? Divide that number by a hundred, then. Divide it by a thousand and reach the numbers mfb quotes for soldiers. I don't think we're getting into "rare" until we divide the current numbers by at least a hundred thousand, if not a million.

~J
lorthazar
That is what you guys don't get. They are rare. Let's say I wrote a bestselling novel that sold a 600 million copies and I signed and numbered 6 million of them. Those six million would be rare and worth more than the other 594 million. Why? Becuase they are much more limited. There are less of them and they are unique and coveted. Now that is the same ratio as Awakened to Mundane.
Kagetenshi
No, they wouldn't be rare. Why? Because there are six million of them.

~J
mfb
yes, but they're not nearly as rare as you're making them out to be. nearly everybody on the planet knows not one but several Awakened people. sure, some people will hate and fear the Awakened, but it's hard to continue fearing something you rub shoulders with on a daily basis--and without the fear, there's much less reason for the hate.
lorthazar
You know I was trying to give you credit. I was trying to assume you could see the big picture. I still am. So I will give you one last chance. Then I sentence you to live in that small minded world you lock yourself in.

Rare has nothing to do with numbers, it has to do with ratios. Compared to ants as a whole, Queen ants are rare. Compared to people with the proper level of melanin, albinos are rare. Compared to the Stars they collapse from, Blackholes are rare. Compared to the number of people who have never played an RPG, gamers are rare. Now you cannot argue that there are less than tens of millions of these, but when you compare it to the larger number it make them rare.


And where on Earth are you getting that everyone knows an Awakened person, perhaps several. One in a hundred does not cover that. Everyone knows of several, but hey almost everyone knows of Arnold Schwarzenegger too.
mfb
as i've pointed out several times, the ratios do not back your position up at all. the ratio of US Army to non-US Army is three orders of magnitiude less than the ratio of Awakened to non-Awakened. it's reasonable to assume that most people in the US know one or more soldiers in the US Army; therefore, it's reasonable to assume that most people in the US would know several Awakened people. i don't think you're really aware of how many people Joe Average knows.
Moon-Hawk
But 1% just isn't that rare. I would consier 1% uncommon, but certainly not rare. I encounter hundreds of people every day going to work, school, at the store, etc. If I encounter a type of person every day they're cetainly not rare.
Regardless of absolutes, dealing only in ratios, 1% still isn't that rare.
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