Wireless smartgun links are the dumbest things I've ever heard of. What's wrong with the good ol' palm induction link? The gun should be in your possession when you fire it anyways, and if somebody gets ahold of your gun, that is what your biometric safety (not wireless) is for if you chose to install one.

It sounds to me like they were thinking of cool things for 'hackers' to be able to do and came up with ways to make it work without thinking of the practicality of the thing.

Or you get a cable-splitter or an external router box, or a datasuit, or run the datafeed across your skin and conductive clothing, or ...

Who said they were rule books? They are as I understood it simply equipment books. Arsenal will contain equipment and vehicles not covered in the BBB.

Magic book will contain all other traditions not covered in the BBB. More like Awakenings than MITS.

Again bio/cyber lists of things that aren't in the BBB.

Now you may have me with players guide and gamemasters guide. But I got the impression they would be SSG and MJLBB mixed and matched for pc's and gm's.

Please. Enlighten us.

As for hacking the smart guns. Nobody said it would be easy. Just doable.

Thanos

Clearly.

There's nothing inherently wrong with wireless. If there was, none of my characters would ever use cell phones, drones, or radio communications. I also see the point mfb made, and I added another twist--use alternative non-cyber methods of data transfer which cannot be jammed or intercepted as easily (even transmitting data across your skin from a gun to the Smartlink system would create some RF leakage). Likewise, any RF transmitting out in a sphere (like information from a fully remote-capable Smartgun) isn't going to stop just because the power is weak. The signal's going to be broadcast out [edit]to infinity[/edit] until it's redirected or absorbed by something.

However, just because you're not 100% wireless doesn't mean that it's not possible to share that information with your teammates. It just means that you're utilizing a single-source encrypted channel for your communications that is less easily jammed or intercepted rather than letting them access your Smartgun's feed directly.

You mean like how M&M, CC, MitS, SSG, SR3Comp are just "stuff" books without a single rule in them?

No. I mean they are just that. Catalogs if you will. There may be some fluff in there with the especially with the magic and bio/cyber, but that's it.

Thanos

I was responding to Blakkie's pre-edit post regarding contacts. I'd have an easier time seeing you shooting up the FanPro headquarters than sitting tight for a Shadowmaster's Guide and a Player's Handbook.

~J

None of the new spells, powers, totems, spirits or Traditions will have any new rules?

None of the new weapons or vehicles will have any new rules?

None of the new cyber/bioware will have any new rules?

Interesting.

So we're getting "Catalogs," but not in the SSC/FoF tradition because books like that don't sell. Just lists and lists of new stuff, perfectly integrated into the rules established in the main book. No new rules--not even in the GM or Player guides.

Interesting.

Ah, yes. Now I remember why this seems like total bull.

I wonder why I am skeptical that they are nothing or little more than "catalogs."

Yes, the SR3 developers said the exact same thing as the fourth edition developers about wanting to eliminate the confusion from having to flip through all sorts of books for various rules in Second Edition. SR, Third Edition then did the exact same thing. They wrote seven core rules books (the main book and the books I listed above). They then comitted a sin not even Second Edition did by adding new rules to virtually every sourcebook published under Third Edition from Cyberpirates to Year of the Comet to the State of the Art books. Fanpro, the company responsible for the latter books continued this rather egregious practice.

Given the above excerpt of the Fanpro catalog, and given the fact that there are six major books which could be rules heavy coming down the pipeline (four and a half of them look very similar to five of the existing SR3 rulesbooks that added to "rules bloat") please excuse my skepticism that there won't be in the future because they seem to be doing the same thing FASA did to help fuck things up.

Short range wireless isn't.

~J

Shouldn't Jon "Electronic Warfare is God" Szeto have already quashed the myth of "short-range wireless" by now in the development process?

This has been gone over before, but not yet in this thread. "Rules" [edit]as you appear to be defining them[/edit] encompasses both the framework identifying the names of parameters that constitute each class of item and how to interpret these parameters interact with other items in the game world. For example fireams could be defined as have a range, power, penetration, and round capacity, and then how these parameters are used in combat's opposed roll and damage determination.

Then also in the "rules" [edit]as you appear to be defining them[/edit] are instances of these, such as Wizz Bang Shotgun, range 20m, power 15, penetration 5, and a 7 round fixed magizine. EDIT: The difference between your definition and what that goal is is here. They aren't counting these as "rules", just reference data that you process using the rules.

For an example see D&D 3.5e Complete Xxxx books. Very, very few of the former. They are instead catalogs of the later. If SR3 managed to pull it off to that level it would be stunning to say the least, especially if they did it in 1 book since D&D took 3 (DMG, PHB, and MM). Of course i don't expect them to in full. Earlier in the thread they did mention they might have to put off Initiation till Street Magic due to size constraints. I just hope they can come closer, plus get rid of cross references between books instead of always back to the BBB. So i doubt perfection, but closer is better.

P.S. Plus what was said about combining Weapons and Vehicles and Matrix equipment into one book.

Don't forget, our cute Little Ball O' Anger, your issues with Loose Alliances.

Oh, and the Creepwoodrun gaming system.

....on-topic for a Shadowrun discussion board....

Just rounding out the inventory.

Although another mildly edit:relavent:edit point would be that from what i gleamed from the Loose Alliances Dumpshock forum is the SR4 BBB could be priced at 10$, the cover inlaid with real gold leaf, and include coupons for 5 free handjobs and he'd still be accentuating the negative.

P.S. I also included Creepwoodrun since i happen to agree with him there, and that was one funny post [edit] that deserves a link [/edit].

Huh?

The description for Street Magic is almost identical to the description of MitS, and there are a lot of rules in MitS. Rules, by their definition, which are also in this Street Magic book.

Not the "rules" you seem to think I'm describing (You seem to be incorporating stats into "rules," which is hardly my idea of what rules are), but "rules" which tell you how many dice to roll on a Centering Test, and how to count the successes for whatever you're using Centering for, or the rules for Voudoun asd opposed to the rules for Hermetic or Shamanic magic, or the rules for summoning Watchers, Allies, Insect Spirits, or Invoking Great Forms.

Maybe dice mechanics would be more apt, but "rules" sounds better.

Given that, I hardly see how a book which is described as containing the same information, fluff and rules, as MitS can be described as little more than a "Catalog." Maybe your definition of catalog includes information on how and what dice you rule to achieve X effect, but mine doesn't.

I don't see anything in my L.L. Bean catalog that tells me how many dice I have to roll to put on a sweater, or what the threshold is to do it successfully without making a new hole. I do see a short description of each item grouped with similar products, stats like size, color and price, pretty pictures of mediocre models wearing mostly bland clothing, and an order form in the middle. That's what I consider a catalog to be. Something like that, or the Fanpro 2005 catalog which has a couple of nifty pictures and short blurbs about the products along with "stats" like product name, number, and price. I don't see anything in that catalog about rolling 5's and 6's to get in touch with a dealer who can get me a copy of the book before Gencon, which sucks since I roll 6's.

If it walks like a rules supplement, and quacks like a rules supplement, it's probably a rules supplement.

Actually, if you transmit in a frequency band over which the atmosphere is relatively opaque, short range wireless is short range (no more than tens of meters).

[edit]And since I'm posting anyway, I should point out that demos typically put the best possible face on a new game system. It's hard to notice systemic, long-term problems with advancement and flexibility--or even player control of combat--when you're just there to shoot a few bullets, drop some bad guys, and hang out with other fans. So I'm not sure that a demo really allows one to get a sense for whether a lot of the concerns that have been voiced here are valid or not.

Finally, I'd consider the changes to magicians (no magic loss from wounds, and anyone can summon spirits short term or bind them long-term) rather substantial changes to setting. Apparently, they didn't really mean they weren't changing the setting much--for magicians, those changes make an enormous difference to how you play and what your job opportunities are in the sixth world.[/edit]

What do you consider a "new" rule?

Unfortunately I don't think any of the play testers post on DS.

As you can "hack" a drone now, why all of the sudden is it a big deal?

Hadn't thought about it in a ret con kinda way but your right. Unless they explain it in some manner. Someone mentioned something 'bout SOTA:64 tieing in to this? If it's just a badly done ret con then I will have some problem with it.

[QUOTE]edit]And since I'm posting anyway, I should point out that demos typically put the best possible face on a new game system. It's hard to notice systemic, long-term problems with advancement and flexibility--or even player control of combat--when you're just there to shoot a few bullets, drop some bad guys, and hang out with other fans. So I'm not sure that a demo really allows one to get a sense for whether a lot of the concerns that have been voiced here are valid or not.[QUOTE]

I belive you are quit correct with this. However this applies to all demos not just SR4 demos.


Thanos

Oh, I don't know. Something like the Small Unit Tactics skill for example. It seemed important enough that the rules were put in three sourcebooks (Man & Machine because of its effect on the Tactical Computer, Cannon Companion because it's Advanced Combat, and Matrix because of the BattleTac Matrixlink and the bonus it provides to decker teams running the program).

Other than that, it's pretty open. A new rule can be any rule introduced in any book following the main book. After the main book, really, anything is "new."

What do you mean by a relatively opaque atmosphere to the frequency? One with a great deal of EM interference? IIRC, glass is opaque to IR, but I am guessing this refers more to the presence of a sufficient amount of matter which at a certain frequencies the space is rendered opaque, like this?

Link

I still like my idea better.

That does negate my example but the point is the same. Let´s say; If we were using stone-age technology, nobody would be worried about hackers.

[edit] I understand that wireless tech is vulnerable, and it seems stupid to go that route. But that route is being taken anyway. New tech is developed, then ways to protect it from abuse are deviced if possible. I don´t beleive it´s unrealistic that more things will be using wireless in the future. And from a gaming point of view, there is still nothing that indicates hacker characters will be unballanced compaired to other characters, because that has to do with game design and not technology.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but as I understand your statement even if all the following books were just catologs with equipment descriptions each pice of equipment would be a new rule?

Also, to go back on what I said, I don't really remember them saying there would be no "new" rules in the 3 supplements it's just they would build on the rules in the BBB. That there would be no exceptions to how the game mechanics work, like there is now.

Thanos

I'd say that's a pretty big misunderstanding, because I explicitly said the opposite to blakkie. "You seem to be incorporating stats into "rules," which is hardly my idea of what rules are."

Rules are rules. Stats are stats.

That's different from what I read. You wrote, "There may be some fluff in there with the especially with the magic and bio/cyber, but that's it."

I took that to mean exactly what you said, that there are no rules in these books. New rules, rules built on the core system, whatever. All you said was what I quoted. I don't consider rules, dice mechanics, whatever you call them, to be "fluff" either.

Anyway, I see your point now.

Magic seems capped in another way now. That's why people were trying to get confirmation whether Initiation still raises Magic, and even if it does whether it is still capped (very likely). Magic loss was there before to curb Magic power runaway. Though apparently it only did that effectively for something around 1/2 the games as polled at DSF because the games were run such that Mages were able to avoid it. *shrug*

P.S. I also haven't seen anything about being able to start with a Magic 1, just that Magic starts at 3.

So the setting changed going from SR2 to SR3? Because grounding AoE spells through active foci was a bigger deal than Magic loss. In my mind there is a more pressing reason to avoid taking a "Deadly" wound (or whatever the equivalent would be). The ultimate Magic loss. Dead men cast no spells.

The spirit summoning i'd put around the same level [edit]as grounding[/edit], but for me equally welcome change i would think. Not for shamans, since they had binding type options already. But for the hermetics that couldn't summon on the fly, they instead tapped previously bound elementals (still an option for bound?). So it is likely it will really just be an addition of an ability to the hermetic. I am curious if they'll address the change in fiction.

tamtam, smoke signal ...
since you communicate at distance there IS a way to "hack" it.
There is surely issues of security, and of area were hacking is possible.

That short rather vague description was done a while back, and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was a cut-and-paste mentally if not physically.

However the intent had been to put into the BBB defining how traditions are built, then the new traditions become interations built under that. So then the framework of interactions between them and other elements of the game are defined back in the BBB.

Does this mean that Street Magic would just sit on the shelf and you'd never have to open it? Of course not. However it would be easier to note the parameters of the tradition in short form, either on paper or mentally, to keep book openning to a minimum. Plus even when you did open it you are much less likely to have to refer to multiple locations in the Street Magic for a given topic.

P.S. It doesn't sound like there will be new magical Skills past the base ones. The plan is to nix the addition of new Skills with metamagic. I haven't heard one word yet about Centering, as a Skill or action. Could be dead?

You have to ask specifically to be sent the Awakened version. A silly response? Yes, yet no more silly than your comment.

QUOTE
Also, to go back on what I said, I don't really remember them saying there would be no "new" rules in the 3 supplements it's just they would build on the rules in the BBB. That there would be no exceptions to how the game mechanics work, like there is now.


That's different from what I read. You wrote, "There may be some fluff in there with the especially with the magic and bio/cyber, but that's it."

I took that to mean exactly what you said, that there are no rules in these books. New rules, rules built on the core system, whatever. All you said was what I quoted. I don't consider rules, dice mechanics, whatever you call them, to be "fluff" either.
[QUOTE]

That is correct. Thats why I took it back and corrected my statment.

Thanos

yep, even a telegrah line could be "hacked". just tap into it somewhere along the railtrack and then start hammering out a message

and i wonder if not the rifle that kegetenchi linked to would in sr be considerd similar to how cyberdecks are. ie, just hte act of having it without licence and you risk a nice fine or jailtime. yes its draconian (if i understand the term right) but istn that a hallmark of cyberpunk? draconian communication laws?

yes at the moment the gun is a proof of concept, but i wonder what the reaction would be if someone where to actualy use it for a crime. this is in the same area as pointing out a flaw in a server and posting some proof of concept code to show how said flaw can be used.

today thats seen as peer review. but with tech crime on the rise i wonder how long it will be before the companys start asking the goverment to pass a law making the act of publicly telling how someone can break into a system a crime. its just a matter of extending the dmca.

yes it will not fix the problem but what it will do is drive it underground, like the mafia. operate in the open and show of what you can do to everyone and before you know it your under 24/7 observation so that they can track where you get your info from.

if you want to be paranoid then you should turn of your cellphone and remove its battery. unplug any electrical device from the wall. crush all of it into very tiny parts. get a nice number of rifles, handguns, shotguns and other weapons, and a even nicer stack of ammo, and dont forget the equipment to make more. then you get yourself a place in the middle of nowhere. set up a farm and start growing your own food.

if someone comes within 1km of your place, fire a warning shot at best. at worst, aim to kill. now you should in theory be perfectly safe from anything baring a airstrike or a tank attack (and both can be fixed with the user of heavy equipment).

but while doing all this your allso attracting a whole lot of goverment attention. same thing that will happen if you use a directional antenna to crack a random cops gun.

rule one of cracking, the target should never know that they have been cracked. that rifle is a 15-min of fame kinda thing...

edit: hmm, given my emotional and mental state today i shouldnt have typed a single line. they risk turning into a rant at the drop of a hat...

Yeah, but you're thinking more high powered, high frequency than I am. You're thinking Bluetooth, I'm thinking RFID. There's a difference.

I don't really see much reason why a wireless smartlink in 2070 would work like Bluetooth. It shouldn't need that much power, that high a frequency, or that much range. Even 10 meters is too much. When will you be firing a gun where that gun is 10 meters from your head?

And yes, even with the lower powered, lower frequency transmission, it is still possible for a hacker with the right equipment to eavesdrop or intercept the transmission at some range (much shorter than if it were using Bluetooth though). But I don't really see a problem with that. The hacker still needs to be in the relative area with the right gear, and he'll still have obstacles to overcome (the natural defenses of the device or encryption of the signal, not to mention any hackers in the competition trying to prevent exactly what he's trying to do).

If the Initiation rules slide into Street Magic, and i'm presuming with it the basic Metamagics, would alone seem to be a sizable setback in attaining the goal. I hope they find some way to fit it in.

At least a huge step can be made if they keep from bringing in new variations of dice rolling beyond opposed/fixed threshhold and the open ended test.


P.S. Hey, nobody has posted yet what Initiative looks like in the current transcript. Come on EDT and CDT slackers, you should be finished reading your Monday morning work email by now.

EDIT:

We could always do that. So essense loss happens the same as previously? Although if base starting Magic is 3 that might mean Magic 1 will be relatively more workable than with SR3.

I do too. I've been fighting hard (and so have other playtesters) for Initiation to be in the core book. I think it needs to be.

Even if Initiation isn't what raises your Magic Attribute (not confirmed one way or another yet), having the basic mechanics of metamagic in another book would suck huge donkey...things. I don't care if they only provide 3 metamagics, and they save some flavour text for initiation or some of the initiation rites options for Street Magic. Just get the basics down.

But i don't mean basics done SR3 style where metamagic wasn't there and MitS initiation was a different rule than say the Adepts 20 karma/PP so that you had two base rules.

Yes, enquiring minds want to know.

Along with the likely related question what does Force mean in regards to spells, if still applicable. Do spells follow in the same vein as the rest we've seen where a Force 6 spell will become something to recon with as opposed to just the standard purchase for a beginning PCs Manabolt?