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Bull
Feel free to ask questions, I and the others familiar with SR4 will try and answer questions when we can, and try to keep the thread on topic. smile.gif
the_dunner
Crap, Bull, you get home from GenCon, and you don't have anything better to do than...

oh wait. nyahnyah.gif
Bandwidthoracle
Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?
Bull
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Ok, here's a question:

How much of SR3 Matrix made it into the BBB?
Specifically IC (I'd love to know more about IC), Agents, Serches, and Security Sheves?

The concept and how the matrix and Hosts work is a good deal different, and the mechanics are vastly different, but IC and Agents are still around. I'm assuming you mean "Searches", as in searching for information, and that is still there. The Security Sheave is now gone, however.
Bandwidthoracle
Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?
Bull
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Yeah, Searches work better than Serches.
If there is no Security Sheave, how does IC work?

Similar to how it worked pre-VR2.0. Basically, if you fail to proparly sneak into a host, or you alert the host through your actions (Like destroying things), there are several responses the host can make. One of them is to have IC on hand to attack the intruder. It's more freeform now, and this sort of thing is basically at the GM's disctrection (Though there is a random d6 chart of responses in the book for lazy GMs smile.gif).

Other possible actions include calling in a security hacker, attempting to terminate the hacker's connection, or shutting down the system altogether.

Bull
Bandwidthoracle
So...I may be reading this wrong, but is it all or nothing?
IE I can't have a trace launch at one response and a killer the next (To use SR3 IC)
Instead hacker fails role, host's security system sends in the IC

...I guess a better way to ask is are there more or less or the same number of IC on any given server?
Bull
I think it's GMs call. The new rules are pretty loose and designed to give both the player and GM more freedom, and to run a lot faster. One of the biggest design elements of a lot of the rules seems to have been to remove excess bookkeeping.

So a Host could have multiple pieces of IC. Maybe it all attacks the first time you misstep. Maybe each time it loads a new copy of the IC. You could still set up a security sheave of sorts with a prearranged list of events that happen each time the Hacker sets off an alert.

But as it stands, there's no hard and fast rules. Other than if the system shuts down, it won;t activate any additional IC wink.gif

Bull
mfb
the interesting thing is, IC is always loaded onto frames. and frames can be hacked. it's a little too easy, in my opinion, to jack IC frames, but meh. it's neat.
hobgoblin
so basicly one can turn the hosts own defences against any security present?

if so then i take it there is no real need to pack combat softs when your a technomancer nyahnyah.gif

hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

and can you give us a quick rundown on how rigging works now?

and how will electronic warfare impact say the effectivnes of wireless smartlinks?

and i must say i kinda like the idea of more freeform responses in hosts. one day you crack your local news agent you may just be faced with some trace and an attempt to kill the connection (nice that the host can do this now, means that a mom&pop site dont need to load up on heavy ice any more) while the next time it may hit you with gray or worse from the word go cyber.gif

it allso removes the trouble of a script kiddie jacking in and crewing up and then a wage slave jacks in and gets blown away by allready active ice nyahnyah.gif

i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?

and can the hacker change mode on the fly?
blakkie
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 03:55 AM)
hmm, i belive i spotted a comment about being able to load IC onto any device that have a wireless connection now. i take it one can then defend ones wireless smartlink with a black ice if one can get hold of it?

This has to be at least Restricted if not Illegal, legality of the weapon aside.

What are the mechanics for The Man casually/actively spotting gear with Black Ice on it? Keeping in mind that there are lots an lots of devices walking around for causual checking.

QUOTE
i would allso like to hear about any diffs between AR cracking and VR cracking, whats the pros and cons of either?


The main question i have about that is the state of the meat body during VR? Limp noodle?
mfb
VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 22 2005, 06:28 AM)
VR works pretty much like it did in SR3, except you can open a link to a new node without leaving the one you're at--basically, you can split your icon between multiple locations.

you probably couldn't load your smartlink with IC, for the same reasons you couldn't load a security camera with IC--it's not designed to run programs like that. but you could (and should) run IC on the commlink your smartlink connects to, and you could databomb or encrypt the connection to your smartlink.

So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls? Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 07:35 AM)
So a decker/techno has to go through my commlink (breaking into it as a 'host' first) to access my firearm's controls?  Or is it that my commlink automatically attacks any attempt to directly connect to the firearm?

In game mechanics, anyone who wants to access your devices must be able to access your commlink first. p212 This assumes that you have your network set up in such a way that you have your commlink as your main wireless access point for your PAN.

Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks? EDIT: At least going towards the device. Can you spoof a device to the commlink, or is it secure that way too?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. nyahnyah.gif It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:06 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:01 AM)
Ah, so the connections between devices and the PAN's controller (normally the commlink) are considered imprenerable to man-in-the-middle attacks?

So we can assume the same for building security? You can't actually directly jump into a security camera. Instead you have to go through the building host, just like an SR3 overwatch operation? Only now you can do it while walking around in the building?

While I wouldn't say impenetrable, it would be difficult to do a Hacker attack on an item that doesn't even have stats associated with it. nyahnyah.gif It's simply easier to do PAN attacks using the Commlink route, from a GM's perspective, I guess. Besides which, the flux on most PAN wireless devices is so low that you would have to be within 2 meters of a target, which might get uncomfortable. I'd say that if it has stats, you can hack it.

Security for non-PAN devices is different. You hack into them either through a central node or through the device's node itself.

Ah, ok. So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?

What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
hobgoblin
like someone pointed out before on a older thread; being within range to hack a device isnt a problem, just get a bigger antenna...

but this isnt the place to take the rules apart, the forum is allready full of threads doing that nyahnyah.gif

hmm, i like the sound of being able to split ones icon. this allow the system to be more similar to present day in that you can be sitting on x number of chat hosts and so on.
hahnsoo
QUOTE
Ah, ok.  So i can't fire my weapon from across the room?
You can, if the device was upgraded to have a stronger signal, I guess. Seems kinda pointless unless it's a Smart sentry gun.
QUOTE
What does it take to change which PAN a weapon is on? Say i am grappling with someone, so i'm will within the 2m range. Or does it have to go outside the PAN range (get dropped) and then any PAN can hook up to it?

Also, i assume that if a device has stats that it can have Ice local to it?
First of all, how the heck are you going to hack while you are grappling? You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations. 2m is just a ballpark figure, I think the max effective range of a Signal 0 device is 3m. It definitely requires much more than simply "getting into range" and doing a Complex Action to steal the gun (assuming that it's smartlinked to begin with). I think brute force hacking (or hacking on the fly) is a Hacking + Exploit (Firewall rating, 1 Initiative Pass) Extended test for the access (which, depending on the Firewall, might delay you for a bit), then you have to engage in an appropriate action (depending on what you want to do), with the risk of triggering an alert both on the above Extended test and the Hacking actions. An alert can scramble a VR security Decker (if you are hacking into a sec guard's item), patrolling VR IC on a node nearby, Terminate all connections (locking everyone out of the item) or shutdown (rebooting the item). Still, I wouldn't make any speculations about the Hacking system until you get a copy of the book and can slog through it, and then playtest it multiple times (I'm still in the process of doing so in my group).
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:18 AM)
You have to have all of your concentration devoted to hacking his gear, and grappling definitely isn't one of those situations.

You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is **grabbling the opponent. wink.gif

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

**EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time
hobgoblin
i still wonder if one can jam the connection between the smartlink and the gun using electronic warfare and if so what kind of effects that will have nyahnyah.gif

hmm, can one hack say a persons display contacts of cybereyes so that they see false images or nothing at all?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:27 AM)
You can't take penalties for two simultaneous actions? I thought there weren't any exclusive actions anymore? As long as you can do this while in AR mode (since VR mode doesn't allow meat body control) and have the $k!llz to work past the penalty.

If you have to go VR then ammend my example to be in a Decker Bag™ strapped on the back of a Troll that is grappling the opponent. wink.gif

P.S. You do still fall over if standing when you go into VR mode, right?

EDIT: Grabbling - (verb) similar to grappling, but done with the grace of a virgin juniorhigh school boy trying to unhook a bra for the first time

If you are using Augmented Reality, you will have to be able to manipulate AR somehow. I'm not sure if having "just" a cybernetic commlink would be sufficient for this, as you have to be able to manipulate the AR symbols and such. As it stands, to grapple an opponent, you would need to use a Complex Action each action phase, thus limiting your ability to do anything else. Likewise, most Hacking actions are either Simple Actions or Complex Actions. Just like you can't grapple someone AND cast a spell unless it's happens to be a touch-based attack spell of some sort.

Going "VR" is just like jacking into an old-time Cyberdeck and the old Matrix.
blakkie
-----double post-----
blakkie
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about simultaneous conjuring and casting?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie)
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about conjuring and casting?

It's just like SR3. In other words, no.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 07:49 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:49 AM)
So no simultaneous complex actions at a penalty?

EDIT: Except simultaneous casting? What about conjuring and casting?

It's just like SR3. In other words, no.

So the reports of the death of the exclusive action are highly exagerated. There just aren't any exclusive action spells.
Bandwidthoracle
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 22 2005, 08:59 AM)
So the reports of the death of the exclusive action are highly exagerated.  There just aren't any exclusive action spells.

There was never a time when you could do a Complex Action and simultaneously do another different Complex Action. You couldn't fire a gun fully auto and then cast a spell at a penalty, or use Athletics to increase your running speed while shooting. There are no Exclusive Actions, under the definition given by SR3, but that definition only really fit a handful of things, all of them magical.

Under SR3:
QUOTE
EXCLUSIVE ACTIONS
Some acts of magic are considered Exclusive. These feats require great concentration and cannot be performed while using any other magical skill or maintaining any other magical ability. For example, a magician cannot cast an Exclusive spell while sustaining an existing spell. The magician must stop sustaining the other spell first. Maintaining spell defense over others is also not possible while engaging in an Exclusive activity, which means that certain activities may leave your friends vulnerable. Specific Exclusive Actions are described throughout this chapter and are summarized on the Exclusive Actions Table.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?

Personal Area Network, the wireless and wired connections that connect all of a single person's devices, usually with a Commlink as the hub.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?


Personal Area Network. The small virtual universe of wireless devices on you all talking to each other. Plus the commlink router that lets you connect your PAN to other hosts (whether PANs or bigger hosts) out in the Matrix.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
QUOTE
I'm out of the loop, what's a PAN...other than that thing you cook stuff in?


Personal Area Network. The small virtual universe of wireless devices on you all talking to each other. Plus the commlink router that lets you connect your PAN to other hosts (whether PANs or bigger hosts) out in the Matrix.

Are these mandatory as part of your ID? (As seems to be hinted by the comlink in the ID section of the book)?
blakkie
--- wrong thread ----
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
Are these mandatory as part of your ID? (As seems to be hinted by the comlink in the ID section of the book)?

If you have an active Commlink, you have a PAN, albeit with a single member (population: 1 Commlink). I guess technically it isn't really a network without at least one device attached to your Commlink, but you get the idea. It's simply all of the devices on your body that have been linked together, that's it. It's an easy way to designate a unit in the WiFi version of the Matrix, so you don't have to say "My smartlink wired to my Commlink going through the NeoNET node, blah blah blah". You just say "My PAN is connecting and heading to Shadowland".
hobgoblin
heh, that pan give extended meaning to personal space. now you can physicaly detect it nyahnyah.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Which raises the question of upgrading... what is the range of essence costs for accessories of implanted commlinks?
What kind of accessories exist - and what are they good for?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Which raises the question of upgrading... what is the range of essence costs for accessories of implanted commlinks?
What kind of accessories exist?

Commlinks are 0.2 essence or they take up 2 capacity units in a cyberlimb.
Sim Modules are 0.2 essence or they take up 2 capacity units in a cyberlimb.
Datajacks are 0.1 essence or they take up 1 capacity unit in a cyberlimb.
Simrigs are 0.5 essence.

All of these are available in non-cyber versions, and cybered/non-cybered versions can be linked together either wirelessly or other connections.

There are other non-cyber accessories, like AR gloves, Biometric Readers, Nanopaste/regular trodes, printers, satellite links, subvocal mics, etc.
Spookymonster
Do chipjacks still exist? If so, multislot or not? Ditto for the Skillsoft jukebox?
hobgoblin
most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket nyahnyah.gif
hahnsoo
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket nyahnyah.gif

You need a Sim Module or datajack to use Knowsofts or Linguasoft. Activesofts require a skillwire system.
Spookymonster
Good point. With wireless connectivity and practically unlimited storage available, jukeboxes seem fairly obsolete.

However, the biggest selling point for chipjacks was their smaller Essence hit. Since the Datajack is now down to .1 Essence as well, single-slot chipjacks would seem pointless. Multislot chipjacks might still serve a purpose (assuming you even need a chipjack for your Commlink to talk to your Skillwires...hmmmm....).

[edit]
Oops... nevermind.
blakkie
From below, Copied/Pasted/Cleaned Up.....

Question: Are there separate OS [off-the-shelf] options for a given commlink, or is the commlink/OS a package deal? Can you get after-market and/or home-rolled OSes for those that feel they absolutely, positively must be a slave to the bleeding edge?

Answer: Commlinks and OSes are purchased separately. There aren't any rules for home-brewed programming, although there are rules for pirating software.

Question: Did the Commlink Customization section at the end of the Matrix chapter get cut for now?

Answer: No, those rules are in there, p.240. They're basic, but they're absolutely functional. Just, uh, it may be 2085 before your hacker finishes recoding his rating 6 OS.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 22 2005, 11:30 AM)
most likely a common comlink can work as a skillsoft jukebox, kinda like how you could load a skillsofts into headware memory. only that now your carrying your "head mem" in your pocket nyahnyah.gif

You need a Sim Module or datajack to use Knowsofts or Linguasoft. Activesofts require a skillwire system.

hey, this made things very interesting in europe. no more trouble with the diffrent languages. just get a comlink with a sim module and make sure you can access a whole lot of linguasofts nyahnyah.gif

very nice, very nice indeed wink.gif

it will be fun to hack some friends comlink while he is trying to charm that elf lady at dantes, making sure to replace his copy of sperethiel with one designed by the swedish chef rotfl.gif
Spookymonster
So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?
maeel
another thing ,i'd like to know, is, will it be possible to rig a vehicle with trodes?

what about the maximum fire rates, in SR3 HV-wapons made miniguns obsolete, that still so in SR4.
hobgoblin
the maximum fire rate question belongs in the combat&gear thread i think...
maeel
i know, but i was too lazy biggrin.gif
reconsweden
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
it will be fun to hack some friends comlink while he is trying to charm that elf lady at dantes, making sure to replace his copy of sperethiel with one designed by the swedish chef rotfl.gif

Google the swedish chef understands <-------------Link

Sorry, couldn´t resist =)
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Spookymonster)
So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?

You just need a way to get the Skillsoft to your Skillwires, which would mean either a Datajack or a Commlink or some other method. Hardwiring a datajack to a commlink could be useful if you intend to do some work with your datajack that needs to share information with data stored in your commlink. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to access your commlink information through a datajack transfer. *shrugs* I'll admit, it's not too terribly useful but it's a consideration.
Spookymonster
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 22 2005, 06:37 PM)
QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Aug 22 2005, 11:40 AM)
So if you want to slot 2 Activesofts, do you need 2 datajacks, or do you plug the 2 'softs into your commlink and then wire it into a single datajack? Do you even need to hardwire a commlink into a datajack?

You just need a way to get the Skillsoft to your Skillwires, which would mean either a Datajack or a Commlink or some other method. Hardwiring a datajack to a commlink could be useful if you intend to do some work with your datajack that needs to share information with data stored in your commlink. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to access your commlink information through a datajack transfer. *shrugs* I'll admit, it's not too terribly useful but it's a consideration.

So... I download the skillsofts to my commlink, then my commlink loads them into my skillwires directly - no datajack or physical connections required. Is that about right?

Also, is there any mention of used cyberware?
Bandwidthoracle
Do Techomancers get brain IC, or is their PAN unhackable, or some third thing I haven't thought of? (Techomancer IC would be scary)
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