Full Version: Shadowrun 4: Hacking & Rigging
| QUOTE |
| There have been times when I've been using a crappy HTML editor and I realized that things would go a lot quicker and smoother if I just manually typed the code in myself. |
What you're describing is someone that has the appropriate skill. In game terms, you're using your Hacking skill plus your Edit program (which would be Textpad, BBedit, or whatever) instead of using Computer plus Edit program (which would be the CrapHTMLWeaver editor). Neither one uses your Logic attribute.
I'd have to agree.
For Skill+Program tests that you default on, and have neither the skill nor the software, I'd go with System -2 dice.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| For Skill+Program tests that you default on, and have neither the skill nor the software, I'd go with System -2 dice. |
Whereas I would just say no. No skill + no program = no chance.
That's a good point. If neither you nor your computer possess the ability to do something, then how are you doing it?
some people claim they can wing it on logic alone...
Is there any reason to have above a rating 1 command program? I see no test involving the command program, only that you have it.
I found it.... dern search funtion...
Pg 220 if anyone is interested. Command + Skill for having a drone work a task. So unless you plan on telepressence drones, Command 1 will do okay.
Pg 220 if anyone is interested. Command + Skill for having a drone work a task. So unless you plan on telepressence drones, Command 1 will do okay.
I often have a hard time grasping computer concepts, so there'll be lots of questions, but these will suffice for now:
Do all devices tied to a node's subscription list show up as icons in that node? Is there any kinds of restrictions on a "passive search" (last part of P. 217), or can you just let the browse utility scan for every single icon in the whole node given enough time?
When you are in combat in multiple nodes, does anything (except black IC) hinder you from just "closing the window" on one of those nodes? Would this remove you from the opponents in that particular node?
Oh, and the description of inspecting targets running Stealth confuse me: The geist is that you do an active examnation of an icon... so if running Stealth it isn't "invisible", just not easily identified?
Do all devices tied to a node's subscription list show up as icons in that node? Is there any kinds of restrictions on a "passive search" (last part of P. 217), or can you just let the browse utility scan for every single icon in the whole node given enough time?
When you are in combat in multiple nodes, does anything (except black IC) hinder you from just "closing the window" on one of those nodes? Would this remove you from the opponents in that particular node?
Oh, and the description of inspecting targets running Stealth confuse me: The geist is that you do an active examnation of an icon... so if running Stealth it isn't "invisible", just not easily identified?
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| SR 4's "augmented reality" is essentially the same schtick from "GitS: SAC", right? |
Sure, but I'd say that on the whole SAC is a bit too limited in it's scope: Read the GitS 2 Man Machine Interface comic instead (although I admit it went over my head on several occasions), and disregard the "consciousness transfer" concept.
One of my fave scenes is when a cop have trouble with her cyberarm since she got conflicting drivers installed
.
Nothing other than Black IC will stop you from logging off (closing the window) a node. (pg220) When you log off you are gone from that node.
Actually, is it simply being Black IC that allows the connection to be jammed open on a successful attack? Does the Black Hammer utility (or some other utility) do that as a side effect? I don't remember reading any specific rules on that other than "Black IC has this nifty ability".
Yes, Stealth makes you harder to see, but not completely invisible. From the book: "as 'invisible' as possible to other system processes".
According to pg217/218 it says the Analyse program will keep running until you tell it to stop.
Actually, is it simply being Black IC that allows the connection to be jammed open on a successful attack? Does the Black Hammer utility (or some other utility) do that as a side effect? I don't remember reading any specific rules on that other than "Black IC has this nifty ability".
Yes, Stealth makes you harder to see, but not completely invisible. From the book: "as 'invisible' as possible to other system processes".
According to pg217/218 it says the Analyse program will keep running until you tell it to stop.
Blackhammer and it's stun brotherare what give IC that power in SR4.
Thanks, Nikoli, you're right. Looked a little closer at the program definition for Black Hammer and noticed the reference to pg 230 (technically the useful stuff is on 231).
| QUOTE |
| Black Hammer and Blackout are programmed to create dangerous biofeedback at BTL overdose intensity to VR users. In order to maximize the effect, they also subvert the sim interface and jam the connection open, making it impossible for the user to log off and difficult to jack out. |
A little frustrating that they don't mention that at all in the program description.
That's okay, just waittill you've designed a node for your party hacker to attack and forgot to give the IC attack instead of just blackhammer and they use an agent to combat it.
Nice. I hadn't thought of that either. Good point to keep in mind. 
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| That's okay, just waittill you've designed a node for your party hacker to attack and forgot to give the IC attack instead of just blackhammer and they use an agent to combat it. |
BRILLIANT!!!
Several sprites have the complex form "Transfer" -- yet this isn't a program, nor a specific complex form as far as I can see. What is this mysterious (yet dull sounding) power?
Probably edit as that handles file moving.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Probably edit as that handles file moving. |
That seems unlikely, as those sprites have edit in addition to transfer.
Also, why does decompiling require software? With the exception of that one task, technomancers do not need any "traditional" understanding of software or hardware -- resonance is used instead in other similar tests. As it represents, I think, an intuitive ability to interact with and create software, it would make sense here too.
It doesn't. Decompiling rolls Resonance + Decompiling, not Software + Decompiling - you are reading from an old version of the text.
| QUOTE (sapphire_wyvern) |
| It doesn't. Decompiling rolls Resonance + Decompiling, not Software + Decompiling - you are reading from an old version of the text. |
I'm using FPR26000_SR4acr5.pdf and mine says Software+Decompiling as well. FPR26000_SR4acr5.pdf is the latest from Battlecorps, so where is this more-up-to-date version?
Maybe it's a good candidate for errata?
Does a skinlink have infinite bandwidth? Can it also transmit power?
In SR4, the basic assumption is infinite bandwidth and storage.
Using your body's EM field as power cord replacement seems... unhealthy, though.
Using your body's EM field as power cord replacement seems... unhealthy, though.
Using it as a USB cord seems pretty silly, too, though. Anyway, I find that amusing since the current RL tech has a pretty low bandwidth. Assuming infinite bandwidth is really optimistic. And since we're going to make pretty wild-ass assumptions, I don't see how assuming it can also transmit power the way a USB cord can is any more of a stretch.
Besides, it's not powering a house. It'd be, at best, most common in powering peripherals like your trode rig.
Besides, it's not powering a house. It'd be, at best, most common in powering peripherals like your trode rig.
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Assuming infinite bandwidth is really optimistic. |
IMHO: Infinite bandwidth for the normal wageslave. To backup the entire matrix data of Saeder Krupp of the last 30 years in less than a second on your left cybereye isnīt going to work.
But downloading the next SimPorn ...
SYL
If my contacts can track a smartgun crosshair and throw an ultrasound emission out and visualize the echo, by golly powercells will *have* to have gotten smaller. I hereby dub it the "nanomite treadwheel power source"! Like a microscopic gerbil ball on an atomic level rolling down neutron after neutron of stairs.
[But seriously, power sources are so very assumed why even track it?]
[But seriously, power sources are so very assumed why even track it?]
So it's okay to stream a BTL in real-time, but not okay to transfer large amounts of raw text into storage?
Right.
And so... I guess I just get to be completely arbitrary and capricious. "Eh, I don't care. You can't transfer two business cards between you in one second." Super.
Right.
And so... I guess I just get to be completely arbitrary and capricious. "Eh, I don't care. You can't transfer two business cards between you in one second." Super.
A real-world explanation of skinlink technology.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+patents+body...ml?tag=nefd.top
(The illustration is my favorite part.)
Relevant quote: "In its filing, Microsoft says its work addresses wearable devices that are too small to have any kind of interface or even a battery, such as earrings. The company proposes using pulsed AC or DC signals to power the devices. A 100Hz signal could be used to power one device, while a 150Hz signal could be used to power another, the company said, and data signals can be modulated on top of these power signals."
So, yes, there is power transfer. Apparently that's how the SR4 contacts get their juice.
Kinda makes you feel all tingly, eh?
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+patents+body...ml?tag=nefd.top
(The illustration is my favorite part.)
Relevant quote: "In its filing, Microsoft says its work addresses wearable devices that are too small to have any kind of interface or even a battery, such as earrings. The company proposes using pulsed AC or DC signals to power the devices. A 100Hz signal could be used to power one device, while a 150Hz signal could be used to power another, the company said, and data signals can be modulated on top of these power signals."
So, yes, there is power transfer. Apparently that's how the SR4 contacts get their juice.
Kinda makes you feel all tingly, eh?
Wait, does that patent mean Microsoft actually knows how to do it, or that Microsoft owns the concept just in case someone else figures out how it's done?
I also like how they patented the double-click.
I also like how they patented the double-click.
only microsoft (and any other corp that have dont a successfull run against them) knows...
as for contacts sending out ultrasonic pulses, unless thats in the SR4 text im filing that under "overstatements to prove a point" (or better known as hyperbole?).
as for contacts sending out ultrasonic pulses, unless thats in the SR4 text im filing that under "overstatements to prove a point" (or better known as hyperbole?).
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| I also like how they patented the double-click. |
I oughta go patent the "move mouse around" concept.
did they also get "right click"?
No, but I think they tried to patent the concept of an icon, until Apple heard about it and started laughing.
Of course, Xerox's PARC predates both Apple and Uncle Bill, so it's kind of funny, really.
Yeah, weren't some of the guys involved in the first two there working on PARC?
I was taking a look at the sample Drone Rigger they give on page 92, and noticed on several drones they note upgraded Pilot, Firewall, Response, and Signal values. Aside from the Pilot rating on vehicles and drones, does anyone know what the default values for these other 3 are? Do they just use the values associated with the device they are connected to, the riggers commlink usually, or something else?
Pilot rating of 3, then _all_ the skills the drone can possibly have is at 3.. no less no more.. then you can specifically modify these things.. all subject to Response and system limitations..
Atleast thats the way I get it..
Atleast thats the way I get it..
Yeah, that's the way my GM and I interpreted it, as well.
In order to run Pilot in the first place, and as remote devices, vehicles have to have some equivalent system to a standard computer/commlink. And since they didn't bother to specify, with most of the other considerations, it's likely the other system stats would be on-par with the default Pilot rating.
The unusual thing, looking at the sample rigger, is that he's got the computer skill at 4, but didn't spend the handful of hours required to crack his software to improve all of his drones. Signal and Response require new hardware, but Firewall and Pilot can be copied like anything else. And with no limit set on Firewall, re: system/pilot or response, all of those drones ought to have the same r5 as his commlink. Of course, the samples break several rules, anyhow, so it's just another quirk, I suppose.
In order to run Pilot in the first place, and as remote devices, vehicles have to have some equivalent system to a standard computer/commlink. And since they didn't bother to specify, with most of the other considerations, it's likely the other system stats would be on-par with the default Pilot rating.
The unusual thing, looking at the sample rigger, is that he's got the computer skill at 4, but didn't spend the handful of hours required to crack his software to improve all of his drones. Signal and Response require new hardware, but Firewall and Pilot can be copied like anything else. And with no limit set on Firewall, re: system/pilot or response, all of those drones ought to have the same r5 as his commlink. Of course, the samples break several rules, anyhow, so it's just another quirk, I suppose.
Deleted
Ok...that's a lot of info. Hi, I'm new here, and making a technomancer for a new game.
There are a lot of subtleties for how this stuff works that I am still trying to grasp. I am going on the premise that technos do not need commlinks. Hard data, such as IDs, sin, telecomm address, etc... would still be on a hard data storage, but they can feed that into their PAN as normal (commlinks would store that data somewhere after all). That all makes sense tome.
The one thing I am not quite grasping, is hacking peripherals hooked into a PAN. If a smartlink has a wifi port that transmits to the PAN, what stops someone from hackign the smartlink directly, and not bothering with the PAN. The wifi connection is open. I suspect you would still have to spoof or hack your way in, as the smartlink is set up to talk to the host PAN, so you will need to fake yourself as that PAN, but I am not sure why you would need to actually route through the real PAN. It would be a different story if the smartlink was connected by a fibre optic cable to the commlink, but it is is transmitting, then why can't I hit it straight on?
There are a lot of subtleties for how this stuff works that I am still trying to grasp. I am going on the premise that technos do not need commlinks. Hard data, such as IDs, sin, telecomm address, etc... would still be on a hard data storage, but they can feed that into their PAN as normal (commlinks would store that data somewhere after all). That all makes sense tome.
The one thing I am not quite grasping, is hacking peripherals hooked into a PAN. If a smartlink has a wifi port that transmits to the PAN, what stops someone from hackign the smartlink directly, and not bothering with the PAN. The wifi connection is open. I suspect you would still have to spoof or hack your way in, as the smartlink is set up to talk to the host PAN, so you will need to fake yourself as that PAN, but I am not sure why you would need to actually route through the real PAN. It would be a different story if the smartlink was connected by a fibre optic cable to the commlink, but it is is transmitting, then why can't I hit it straight on?
| QUOTE (Xeros) |
| There are a lot of subtleties for how this stuff works that I am still trying to grasp. I am going on the premise that technos do not need commlinks. Hard data, such as IDs, sin, telecomm address, etc... would still be on a hard data storage, but they can feed that into their PAN as normal (commlinks would store that data somewhere after all). That all makes sense tome. |
It's not quite covered in the rules, but personally I'd rule that if a technomancer wants to pass as a regular Joe in downtown, he will need a commlink as well. That's because his living persona does not have an access ID as such. He doesn't have one because he doesn't need one, however the lack will make him stand out if scanned.
Also, bear in mind that the simple act of not having a visible commlink will make everyone assume he's either a technophobe or a technomancer, and that's kinda giving your game away
Much easier to just carry around a cheap commlink with nothing but some basic fake SIN data etc on it. You don't really need to use it for anything, but having it will head of suspicion
| QUOTE |
| The one thing I am not quite grasping, is hacking peripherals hooked into a PAN. If a smartlink has a wifi port that transmits to the PAN, what stops someone from hackign the smartlink directly, and not bothering with the PAN. The wifi connection is open. I suspect you would still have to spoof or hack your way in, as the smartlink is set up to talk to the host PAN, so you will need to fake yourself as that PAN, but I am not sure why you would need to actually route through the real PAN. |
Basically, it can't be done because the smartlink is subscribed to the PAN and will only accept communications from it. If you aren't part of the PAN, it won't listen to you. Theoretically you could hack the smartlink directly, but that would involve using electronic warfare to find and decrypt the signal, then forging a signal passing yourself off as the authentic commlink. The spoof command doens't work on devices and the command program requires you to be logged in as a valid user (ie hacked the commlink), so all in all, that kind of data forging is beyond the scope of the current rules.
If I were going to house rule it, I'd simply say that as it's subscribed to a commlink, you could hack the smartlink directly (after finding and decrypting the signal as needed) as if you were hacking any other matrix node. I'd give it the same firewall and system as the commlink itself though (though the system rating would be limited by the device/response rating of the smartlink). Once in, you'd have hacked the smartlink specifically, not the PAN, so you could screw around with the smartlink, but nothing else. I'd also let any IC on the commlink come and harass you in the smartlink if it found you there (though again, the response/device rating of the smartlink would hamper the IC). The end result of the house rule being it would be somewhat pointless but possible to hack the device directly, encouraging people to go for the commlink
Also the SL would have a signal of 0, so you'd have to be within spitting distance of the target to attempt it.
Yeah, but the signal of the SL doesn't matter, it's not the one that is needing to cover the distance, it's the techno. I understand in general though, some unification is needed of a very abstract concept. I guess if you successfully spoofed the PAN hub, that's as good as having hacked the PAN hub. Also, my techno will have a commlink for appearances, but crap all in real security. Nothing will be subscribed to it.
| QUOTE (Xeros) |
| Yeah, but the signal of the SL doesn't matter, it's not the one that is needing to cover the distance, it's the techno. |
My transmitter might be able to reach it, but if its transmitter can't reach me I can't really hack into it since I can't see what's happening.
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Also the SL would have a signal of 0, so you'd have to be within spitting distance of the target to attempt it. |
That's a very good point as well
How does this look for a 'Hacker in a box'?
Hermes Ikon.........................................3000Y
Novatech Navi .....................................1500Y
Agent (R4)...........................................10,000Y
All Common Use programs (R4)............2800Y
Exploit (R4)..........................................4000Y
Stealth (R4).........................................4000Y
Hacking programs (R3)........................12,000Y
(Armor, Attack, Decrypt, Defuse, ECCM, Sniffer, Spoof, Track)
Total 37,300Y (8 Build Points)
It can do nearly anything a competent human hacker can do, although it can't match up to a PC-level hacker and lacks opportunism. On the upside, it doesn't take a cut of the pay and won't whine about working 72 hours straight. You can drop the hacking programs (except Exploit and Stealth) to get the 25,000Y budget model, but that can't do much more than steal data and open doors.
Hermes Ikon.........................................3000Y
Novatech Navi .....................................1500Y
Agent (R4)...........................................10,000Y
All Common Use programs (R4)............2800Y
Exploit (R4)..........................................4000Y
Stealth (R4).........................................4000Y
Hacking programs (R3)........................12,000Y
(Armor, Attack, Decrypt, Defuse, ECCM, Sniffer, Spoof, Track)
Total 37,300Y (8 Build Points)
It can do nearly anything a competent human hacker can do, although it can't match up to a PC-level hacker and lacks opportunism. On the upside, it doesn't take a cut of the pay and won't whine about working 72 hours straight. You can drop the hacking programs (except Exploit and Stealth) to get the 25,000Y budget model, but that can't do much more than steal data and open doors.
Please forgive if I ask a question that's already been answered. I tried to read all 16 pages tonight & some of them blurred a little. 
I get how a technomancer carrying a commlink could be useful, both to broadcast necessary (fake) info & to connect to a wired system if necessary. (Although I disagree about not having a visible one. For all Joe on the street knows, yours is implanted.)
It is a little confusing that the sample Technomancer in the book does not have a commlink, but does have a fake SIN. No storage device either. The book implies that a techno does not need a commlink, even for transmitting the required info.
I guess I'd like to have that information cleared up a little, but I can work with what I've got.
My question is, do technomancers need to have a smartlink, or can they access the smartgun system without one, since it's wireless?
I get how a technomancer carrying a commlink could be useful, both to broadcast necessary (fake) info & to connect to a wired system if necessary. (Although I disagree about not having a visible one. For all Joe on the street knows, yours is implanted.)
It is a little confusing that the sample Technomancer in the book does not have a commlink, but does have a fake SIN. No storage device either. The book implies that a techno does not need a commlink, even for transmitting the required info.
I guess I'd like to have that information cleared up a little, but I can work with what I've got.
My question is, do technomancers need to have a smartlink, or can they access the smartgun system without one, since it's wireless?
| QUOTE |
| Total 37,300Y (8 Build Points) |
The real icing on the cake is if you compare that to the cost required to get the necessary skills at 4, the equivalent of the agent:
Cracking skill group 4 (40 BP)
Computer 4 (16 BP)
Data Search 4 (16 BP)
So far as I know, Agents can't do hardware or software related tests. 0 BP for these two.
That's a total of 72 BP for all agent skills at 4 -- or just pay exactly 2 BP for an agent at rating 4 -- the only difference will be that the agent can't use edge.
For chargen, it looks like the hacker-dabbler concept is pretty well dead. It's uber-hacker, or hacker in a box. Otherwise, you're waisting about 70 BP.
The only saving grace is that you could play a technomancer instead; at least then you get some bonus "flavor" in the form of sprites.
Can a boxed hacker do the Electronic Warfare test to find a hidden node?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.