Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Shadowrun 4: Combat & Gear
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (6thDragon)
I completely agree, I can remember many times when I've used lots of karma just to avoid a light wound because of the difference it would make on my target numbers. But only a -2 for 8 boxes. That seams a little light, but maybe they are trying to down play wound modifiers compared to SR3.

Well they work a bit differently. They subtract from your dicepool. Say you had a 8 dice pool at 8 boxes you only have 6, take one more and you're down to 5 dice. And thats before other mods which may lower it further. So it can be equaly crippling. That +1 modifier wasn't that bad all by itself if you had the dice, its when it started adding up with the other modifiers that it realy hurt.
Clyde
They do work differently. Under the variable TN system of SR3 there were a lot of breakpoints. Each +1 to the TN could have either a negligible or a massive effect on your outcome. Say, from 5 to 6. It could also kill you in melee combat, where suddenly an enemy of lesser skill might gain an advantage.
blakkie
The nasty penalties under SR1-SR3 came from taking a mixture of mental (stun) and physical damage. 1 box mental, 1 box physical, a total of 2 boxes, and you were reeling with a +2 TN.

Given how combat damage is applied through armor it seems highly likely that it will be much more common to recieve a mixture of stun and physical. Having he penalty occur on the fix box of damage would have ben absolutely brutal.

As for only a -2 at 8 boxes seeming small, remember that for a lot of PCs 8 boxes is a smaller percentage of total damage than under the old fixed 10 box condition monitor. As well it seems likely that a PC will be carrying somewhere in the range of a -5 dice penalty before they are dropped.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 04:35 PM)
how are movement rates handled?

Each race has a walking rate and running rate in m/Combat Turn. It is not dependent on Attribute.

Characters may attempt to increase their running distance by spending a simple action and making a running + strength test. Each hit adds 2m to running rate.

Can you still make an athletics skill test to increase movement?
SL James
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 24 2005, 02:49 PM)
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 04:35 PM)
how are movement rates handled?

Each race has a walking rate and running rate in m/Combat Turn. It is not dependent on Attribute.

Characters may attempt to increase their running distance by spending a simple action and making a running + strength test. Each hit adds 2m to running rate.

Can you still make an athletics skill test to increase movement?

That's what the "running + strength test" is for.
blakkie
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 24 2005, 02:49 PM)
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 23 2005, 04:35 PM)
how are movement rates handled?

Each race has a walking rate and running rate in m/Combat Turn. It is not dependent on Attribute.

Characters may attempt to increase their running distance by spending a simple action and making a running + strength test. Each hit adds 2m to running rate.

Can you still make an athletics skill test to increase movement?

That's what the "running + strength test" is for.

I think he is asking about increasing walking distance, not running. But the whole area is still unclear since it wasn't explained what you have to do to switch from walking rate to running rate, or if Running + Str can also be used to increase the walking rate either directlyor indirectly.
SL James
Race Walking!
tisoz
A character can walk, run, or stay stationary during any Pass. To walk or run, the character must declare it during his Declare Actions part of his Action Phase. Walking takes up no action, but running requirs a free action. Movement rate continues until the character acts again.
mfb
heh. i like that movement system. if i were to suggest a movement system, that's probably the one i'd suggest, after doing a night of research on the average and maximum running speeds of humans!
6thDragon
For skill and the Group skill categories, can you have say Sorcery group skill at 4 and spell casting at 6 at character creation? Or if you start with the group skill, can you then raise one skill individually?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (6thDragon)
For skill and the Group skill categories, can you have say Sorcery group skill at 4 and spell casting at 6 at character creation? Or if you start with the group skill, can you then raise one skill individually?

Once you raise a skill outside of a skill group, the skill group ceases to exist, and the skills are split off at the same rating as the skill group. You can "build" a new skill group if you have all of the skills within that group at the same rating, and then raise them as a collective Skill Group. You cannot start with a Sorcery Skill Group 4 and Spellcasting 6, as far as I can see.
tisoz
QUOTE (6thDragon)
For skill and the Group skill categories, can you have say Sorcery group skill at 4 and spell casting at 6 at character creation? Or if you start with the group skill, can you then raise one skill individually?

I'm going to disagree with hahnsoo. I don't see where this breaks a rule.

Say you buy the Sorcery group up to 4. (Max group rating at chargen is 4) Cost is 40 BP.
Then you buy Spellcasting up to 6. (Need to check on the single skill of 6 at chargen, so all other skills and groups at 4 or less.) Cost is 8 BP.
I would allow it as GM.

The thing is, there are no examples that use this tactic, and it doesn't come out and forbid or condone it. It just says the group is dismantled when one skill gets raised above the others and no more group discounts.

What is even trickier, is if it is possible to have Sorcery Group 4, Spellcasting 6, then tack on Manipulation Spells Specialization for 2 BP at chargen? It says groups can not have a specialization, but the group has been broken.
Triggerz
QUOTE (mintcar)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 23 2005, 09:40 AM)
QUOTE (mintcar @ Aug 23 2005, 09:37 AM)
You didn´t only loose you´re smartgun mod in the old edition, you also got twice the amount of recoil applied to both weapons. Is that still going to be the case?

Erm, really? This is what my p112 of SR3 BBB says:
QUOTE
Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand. Doing so, however, imposes a +2 target modifier to each weapon and negates any target number reductions from smartlinks, smart goggles or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.
It's not doubled in SR3 and it's not doubled in SR4 either.

It is effectively doubled in the quote you made. If you use two guns you will fire twice as many bullets and get twice as much recoil, because any uncompencated recoil from one gun applies to the other as well. (you count recoil comp twice off course, but my first comment wasn´t made to be exact. I thought you would understand what I meant) This is just one of the things that limits firing with two guns already. Splitting the pool makes the penalty grow progressively as you get better, which is not a good thing imo.

If you´re firing at multiple targets I could see that splitting the pool represents dividing your attention.

I didn't mention recoil because I mostly used two pistols - modified enough so that recoil wouldn't be an issue. Same with SMGs. I'd keep the bullet count low enough to not have recoil - and I guns are a thing I always took REALLY seriously, so I had some sweet pieces made by my gunsmith to suit my specific needs. wink.gif But yeah, when you're just trying to mow down a guy standing 3 or 4 meters in front of you, recoil shouldn't really be much of an issue. Maybe your last bullets or your first will be off target a bit, but there's no way in hell you should get two complete misses if you pump 20 rounds in the poor guy's direction.

I like wide bursts. I don't have the book yet, but I love the idea. I guess I'll allow players to decide how narrow or wide their bursts will be by splitting the DV and dice bonuses the way they want. It will probably require some tweaking of the dodging modifiers, but I'm pretty sure I'll find the right way to do it once I actually have the book.
Triggerz
Oh! How does reach work? Bonus dice? Can you choose between giving yourself an extra die or giving your opponent a die penalty?
tisoz
QUOTE (Triggerz)
Oh! How does reach work? Bonus dice? Can you choose between giving yourself an extra die or giving your opponent a die penalty?

That's pretty much how it works. Whoever has greater net reach decides. So a reach 3 guy gets to decide whether to get +2 dice or make the reach 1 guy take a -2 dice modifier. Doesn't mention splitting net reach.
Triggerz
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Triggerz @ Aug 24 2005, 09:59 PM)
Oh! How does reach work? Bonus dice? Can you choose between giving yourself an extra die or giving your opponent a die penalty?

That's pretty much how it works. Whoever has greater net reach decides. So a reach 3 guy gets to decide whether to get +2 dice or make the reach 1 guy take a -2 dice modifier. Doesn't mention splitting net reach.

Thanks! It's a good thing that the bonus/penalty can be applied as you see fit. Or else, if a high-skill character wanted to cut a low-skill guy in half, reach just wouldn't really matter. I don't know the melee weapons stats yet, but it probably wouldn't make much of a difference whether you have a Dikoted knife or a No-dachi. And that would be rather sad. nyahnyah.gif
Triggerz
Oh! And same thing when it's the low-skill guy who has the reach bonus. Adding two dice to a 4-dice pool makes more of a difference, it seems, than subtracting two from a 8-dice pool. But then again, with a fixed TN... I REALLY can't wait to get my hands on the new edition!!! nyahnyah.gif
Space Ghost
Do wound modifiers affect movement rates? i always find it fishy when an rpg allows half-dead characters to sprint around while holding their guts in.
tisoz
QUOTE (Space Ghost)
Do wound modifiers affect movement rates? i always find it fishy when an rpg allows half-dead characters to sprint around while holding their guts in.

They effect sprinting which requires a skill test and wound modifiers affect skill tests.

But it does not look like they affect running rates, unless they decrease initiative score to 0. Then the character gets no actions. Running requires an action.

Just noticed something fragged. If wound modifiers reduce a characters initiative score to 0, they get no actions. However, walking requires no action to perform, so the character could just walk away.
Space Ghost
Next question: In SR3 you had a chance to down an enemy in their own turn, provided they initiate close combat and lose to you. A successful defense allowed a chance at harming an opponent without using an action. Is this still the case?
Phoniex
QUOTE (Bull)

Yeah! Let's make them several stories tall too. And then we'll launch some clans into space, and...

Umm. Wait.

Nevermind.

Kerensky is Harlequin.

Bull

Dear god BULL, you just blew my mind!!!!

Kerensky is Harlequin!

Now i understand why the clans have a seperiority complex.. they fragging imortal elves genetically engineered to be the best.. I can't believe i never saw it before.

Which of course means random human pilots with 2 months training and a "great" leader can completely defeat armies twice their side. but, i digress into problems with the classic b-tech storyline. which is still great wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
Landmates would be cool, though.
Bull
QUOTE (Space Ghost)
Next question: In SR3 you had a chance to down an enemy in their own turn, provided they initiate close combat and lose to you. A successful defense allowed a chance at harming an opponent without using an action. Is this still the case?

No. When you're on defense in HTH combat, it's strictly defense. No counterattacks.

This was done, I believe, to streamline, simplify, and speed up combat. Plus, a lot of players didn't really like that rule. It made a certain amount of sense, but the end effect was that unless you had a ton of skill, you were better off not ever trying to punch someone or attack them with a melee weapon since you had a halfway decent chance of taking damage every time you attacked.

I have no idea if this is the case, so don;t quote me on this, but seeing as the expansion books are going to be designed to be more advanced rules, it's possible that more involved (and possibly strictly optional) melee combat rules will be introduced in either the SR players Companion or the GM's companion )Whatever those books end up getting called).

Bull
hobgoblin
i think peoples biggest problem with the hand to hand combat part was that a old master didnt have to go offensive or invest in any kind of cyber. he would automaticaly have as many passes as the opponent...
hahnsoo
QUOTE (tisoz)
I'm going to disagree with hahnsoo. I don't see where this breaks a rule.

While I don't find explicit language that "you cannot break skill groups at character gen", there are no archetypes that break a skill group, no examples of characters that break a skill group at character generation, and the example given for breaking skill groups on p106 show it happening after a month of play.
6thDragon
How much of the cyber and bioware has been converted into the main book? I understand there is a supplement that will come out kinds like Man and Machine. Do they include any new cyberware in the BBB?
6thDragon
Besides the obvious rigging and decking cyberware, of course.
hahnsoo
A TON of cyber/bioware is in SR4. Notable omissions include Encephalon, Math SPU, Trauma Damper, Move-By-Wire, Boosted Reflexes (no longer exist, but Wired 1 is MUCH cheaper now), Dermal Sheathing, Digitigrade legs, and headware memory (obsolete). None of these are in SR4. Most cyber/bioware is a LOT cheaper now (Wired 3 is 100,000 nuyen, for example, and a total body Cyberlimb/torso conversion is only 90,000 nuyen), and some things have been given a major upgrade (Adrenal Pump now gives the effect of a Pain Editor while running). Notable new additions to the list: Ocular Drone (pop out your eye, use it as a remote drone), Grapple Gun (erm.... okay), Skin Pocket (a bioware version of the cyber compartment), Touch Link (in case you don't want to use Simsense but still want to receive AR touch/temperature information), and Sim Module (a cyber version of the tool that is necessary for full-VR).
6thDragon
No more Dermal Sheathing...that's horrible. The Trauma Damper was always a little too much especially with mages. Just out of curiosity how did the Math SPU and Encephalon change, or aren't they in the main book?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (6thDragon @ Aug 25 2005, 09:35 AM)
No more Dermal Sheathing...that's horrible.  The Trauma Damper was always a little too much especially with mages.  Just out of curiosity how did the Math SPU and Encephalon change, or aren't they in the main book?

Neither Math SPU or Encephalon are in the book (I'll add that to my list). The Cerebral Booster now goes up to 3 and adds directly to Logic, and thus supercedes those pieces of cyberware.

Dermal Sheathing may come out in a different sourcebook, you never know. Same with the Trauma Damper.
Bull
QUOTE (tisoz)
I'm going to disagree with hahnsoo. I don't see where this breaks a rule.

Say you buy the Sorcery group up to 4. (Max group rating at chargen is 4) Cost is 40 BP.
Then you buy Spellcasting up to 6. (Need to check on the single skill of 6 at chargen, so all other skills and groups at 4 or less.) Cost is 8 BP.
I would allow it as GM.

The thing is, there are no examples that use this tactic, and it doesn't come out and forbid or condone it. It just says the group is dismantled when one skill gets raised above the others and no more group discounts.

What is even trickier, is if it is possible to have Sorcery Group 4, Spellcasting 6, then tack on Manipulation Spells Specialization for 2 BP at chargen? It says groups can not have a specialization, but the group has been broken.

You are correct that it doesn't explicitly say you cannot do this. It is implied, I think, though. And that was the intention.

You are supposed to buy either the SKill Group, or the individual skills, but not both. Otherwise you're seriously cheesing the system, min-maxing heavily to save a few BP. smile.gif

To use your example, your method it costs 48

Buying them individually, there are 3 seperate skills. So buying two of them up to 4 costs (4*4)2=32. Buying the 3rd skill to 6 costs 4*6, or 24 points. So you'd normally be looking at 56 points, so you saved 8 BP. Take a 4 Skill Group into account, and you're looking at 16 MORE points.

Skill groups are already a nice savings... I don't think they need to be min-maxed out any further.

Bull
SL James
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
A TON of cyber/bioware is in SR4. Notable omissions include ... headware memory (obsolete).

I think that was a given when Active Memory for cranial cyberdecks turned out to have 1/10 the essence cost.
mmu1
QUOTE (Bull)
You are correct that it doesn't explicitly say you cannot do this. It is implied, I think, though. And that was the intention.

You are supposed to buy either the SKill Group, or the individual skills, but not both. Otherwise you're seriously cheesing the system, min-maxing heavily to save a few BP. smile.gif

To use your example, your method it costs 48

Buying them individually, there are 3 seperate skills. So buying two of them up to 4 costs (4*4)2=32. Buying the 3rd skill to 6 costs 4*6, or 24 points. So you'd normally be looking at 56 points, so you saved 8 BP. Take a 4 Skill Group into account, and you're looking at 16 MORE points.

Skill groups are already a nice savings... I don't think they need to be min-maxed out any further.

Bull

If that's the case, then why have a rule that says raising one skill but not the others dismantles the skill group? If you're simply not allowed to do it, that rule has no reason to exist.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (mmu1)
If that's the case, then why have a rule that says raising one skill but not the others dismantles the skill group? If you're simply not allowed to do it, that rule has no reason to exist.

That rule applies to Karmic increases to skills, not Build Point/Character Creation. That's why.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
so, what are maximum fire rates? Are there miniguns, whats their max. firerate? Do HV-weapons exist and do they have higher fire rates than miniguns?

10. Just like SR3. There are a TON of things that haven't changed from SR3. There are no HV guns in SR4, but probably will come out in Arsenal.

Clarification (because we recently ran into this in LitS): is 10 an absolute bullets-per-combat-round cap, or just an autofire cap on everything below supermachinegun class?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Clarification (because we recently ran into this in LitS): is 10 an absolute bullets-per-combat-round cap, or just an autofire cap on everything below supermachinegun class?

Autofire cap. You can fire up to 10 bullets per initiative pass, just like in SR3 (unless I missed something under SR3 rules, I thought it was the same).
mmu1
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Aug 25 2005, 10:26 AM)
If that's the case, then why have a rule that says raising one skill but not the others dismantles the skill group? If you're simply not allowed to do it, that rule has no reason to exist.

That rule applies to Karmic increases to skills, not Build Point/Character Creation. That's why.

Oh... Right, my bad.
Hell Hound
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
...
Autofire cap.  You can fire up to 10 bullets per initiative pass, just like in SR3 (unless I missed something under SR3 rules, I thought it was the same).

I recall reading somewhere (FAQ? Here on Dumpshock?) that the combat round was now 6 seconds instead of 3. If that is the case and the autofire cap remains the same as for SR3 then all firearms are now effectively operating at half their original rate of fire (ten rounds in six seconds instead of ten rounds in three seconds). Is that right? Is that realistic?
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Hell Hound)
I recall reading somewhere (FAQ? Here on Dumpshock?) that the combat round was now 6 seconds instead of 3. If that is the case and the autofire cap remains the same as for SR3 then all firearms are now effectively operating at half their original rate of fire (ten rounds in six seconds instead of ten rounds in three seconds). Is that right? Is that realistic?

Combat Rounds are still 3 seconds.
maeel
a realistic fire rate is somewhere between 650-1200 rounds per minute so basically 10-20 rounds per second.

In Sr3 terms that would be 30-60 rounds per turn....

so, it never was realistic...
Penta
For lack of somewhere to ask...What accessories are available with cybereyes, and what capacity do they take up?
tisoz
QUOTE (Penta)
For lack of somewhere to ask...What accessories are available with cybereyes, and what capacity do they take up?

The only new ones were the ocular drone and vision enhancement that gives modifiers for perception tests. They all took up .1 essence. Capacity varies from 1 to3 except the drone which is wrong, and I forget where the right capacity is stated. Eyes come in different ratings that accept differing capacities.
Bandwidthoracle
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Penta @ Aug 25 2005, 10:21 AM)
For lack of somewhere to ask...What accessories are available with cybereyes, and what capacity do they take up?

The only new ones were the ocular drone and vision enhancement that gives modifiers for perception tests. They all took up .1 essence. Capacity varies from 1 to3 except the drone which is wrong, and I forget where the right capacity is stated. Eyes come in different ratings that accept differing capacities.

When I ear "Ocular drone" does that mean your eyeball is a drone?
blakkie
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
i think peoples biggest problem with the hand to hand combat part was that a old master didnt have to go offensive or invest in any kind of cyber. he would automaticaly have as many passes as the opponent...

It was simply bizzare.

So long killer defense, won't miss ya.
Space Ghost
Maybe that Counter Attack adept power will do something along those lines. All in all, i won't miss the old HtH rules.
tisoz
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle)
When I ear "Ocular drone" does that mean your eyeball is a drone?

It functions as a normal eyeball (can be bought for 1 eye), until taken out. Then it functions as a drone that can roll on its own. Has trouble even making it over lips.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Aug 25 2005, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE (6thDragon @ Aug 25 2005, 09:35 AM)
No more Dermal Sheathing...that's horrible.  The Trauma Damper was always a little too much especially with mages.  Just out of curiosity how did the Math SPU and Encephalon change, or aren't they in the main book?

Neither Math SPU or Encephalon are in the book (I'll add that to my list). The Cerebral Booster now goes up to 3 and adds directly to Logic, and thus supercedes those pieces of cyberware.

Bummer, i always really liked the idea of "i've got a calculator in my head that is great for flawlessly working out mortar tragectories".
blakkie
QUOTE (tisoz @ Aug 24 2005, 05:38 PM)
A character can walk, run, or stay stationary during any Pass.  To walk or run, the character must declare it during his Declare Actions part of his Action Phase.  Walking takes up no action, but running requirs a free action.  Movement rate continues until the character acts again.

Does this mean if i want to walk from point A to point B i say "i start walking". I don't actually get anywhere until a simple action or complex action passes. While the walking occurs i can use that simple action for something else, like going Dirty Harry on someone? With a penalty of course. If i simply want to get from point A to B i just let the simple or complex action go by and at the end of it i'm that much further?

What about running? Same thing, i can [attempt] to do things while running? Or just not allowed to at all? Or is it that GM disgression thing again?
blakkie
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Bandwidthoracle @ Aug 25 2005, 10:27 AM)
When I ear "Ocular drone" does that mean your eyeball is a drone?

It functions as a normal eyeball (can be bought for 1 eye), until taken out. Then it functions as a drone that can roll on its own. Has trouble even making it over lips.

VTOL version coming soon to supplimental book near you? wink.gif
Darkness
"Look Ma'! I'm a hangar." biggrin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012