Basicly, the Idea is to wieght the number of dice so that your rolling your best attack versus their weakest defense. On the first simple action, what it really boils down to, is "Im spending twice as much ammo, and losing one die off of my attack pool, to make you lose one die off of your (much smaller, assuming they are not using total defense) defense pool.

On the second simple action, it becomes "Im spending twice as much ammo, and losing one die off of my attack pool to make you lose three dice from your defense pool"

Even if they avoid all your shots by making a full defense, thats ok, because your target is suppressed.

Now, of course if you have burst fire weapons, and your already penalizing their defense roll, all the better

Yeah, I understand the strategy you propose. I'm just not entirely sure why the defense penalty would make sense if you're attempting to get out of the line of fire of a single guy who happens to be shooting 4 rounds at you in the same initiative pass. As I said, defense penalties for more rounds in full-auto or burst-fire make sense because you're only rolling one test for a group of rounds. With 4 shots from a SA, you already get 4 attack test, so I think the defense penalty might be a bit too big. The same 4 rounds from 4 different opponents though, I'd make it tougher to dodge since it's not as easy to find a way out of 4 different lines of fire as it is to get your ass out of one. What you said is 100% consistent with what I read of the rules on this board. I just think I'd apply the 1-die defense penalty only when a second opponent starts shooting at you, and then a 2-dice penalty for a third, and so on. The 1-die penalty every defense test looks to me like it might make pistols too powerful relative to burst-fire and full-auto weapon.

I'm not trying to ruin your fun, by the way, Knarfy: I play an ambidextrous adept and I love using two pistols for those special situations when you have more goons than is healthy all trying to give you some tough love. I'm just trying to find rules - or interpretations of the rules - that make sense to me.

I noticed that Wired Reflexes gives +1 to initiative and +1 initiative pass per level in SR4. What are the new effects of Reaction Enhancers? Since they go up to level 6 in SR3, or will they just go up to level 3 in SR4 at +1 initiative per level? Also, do you know how the essence costs are in SR4? I'm curious because I know several characters in my group have maxed out bio and cyber and have no room at all left. Maybe they'll just have to drop a piece or two when converting.

well 6th, from what i've HEARD, it seems like MOST things are atleast slightly cheaper or the same in essence cost, so they may actually wind up with a slightly renewed spirit...

i wonder, is this realy the right thread to have a discussion on two weapon ranged combat and how to twink it?

i thought this was a Q&A thread

Yeah, hob, you're right. I usually start with a question, but I can sometimes get carried away. I'll start another thread for that when I have some more time (unless someone else does it in the meantime).

What's the penalty to default to a related skill?

In other words, if I have Automatics 5 but no Pistols and want to fire an Ares Predator, what do I roll?

Is there any new nanoware in the SR4 book?

Yes and No.

There is only NanoTech (NanoPaste Trodes, Disguise, etc.), no NanoWare.

A couple of things I noticed in passing ...

Fortune, on the first one, arent there crossbows in the Sr4 book didnt the elf chicky have one from that cover art?) if so, than it would use bolts, and the arrows are for the "regular" bows.

if you're not saying it shouldnt be there, then i donno what you're pointing out

I think what he's pointing out is that Ballistic armor idoesn't really protect against slashing and piercing damage. If it protects against arrows and crossbow bolts, it should likewise protect against swords and knives.

Bull

Yeah, Bull got it.

In previous editions of SR, arrows and bolts were opposed by Impact Armor. I almost missed the change in SR4, since I wasn't expecting it.

well, could it be a typo? do weapons still have damage types? if so, check the weapons entry ands ee what sort of damage they do, wouldnt that fix it?

All it mentions is that arrows and bolts do physical (P) damage.

I don't see how it could be a typo. I copied the entry for Ballistic Armor above, and I can't find any other mention (so far) that contradicts it.

ok, so how big a diffrence is there in terms of stopping a sword vs a arrow?

its allmost as if it would better if they classified the weapons as cutting or blunt. with cutting being resisted by ballistic armor vs implact resisting blunt.

anyone know anything about layering armor, i know it doesnt layer like SR3, but how does layering work for SR4

Doesn't really. If you layer armor, only the HIGHER of the Impact or Ballistic rating works. And when determining penalties, you add the totals for Impact together and the totals of Ballistic together and take the higher.

please tell me your joking.....this is something they had finally gotten right in SR3, i mean please, layering armor, the way SR3 is is realistic, to much and your slowed down, but you do it right and you can still move and be pretty well protected against anything normal that they throw at you,

the thing is bull, in our game we consider a predator to be a 9mm, and that with a proper vest you CAN walk away from, our figuring is a:
1 kevlar weave material for the jacket and clothes (sr3 was 5/3 3/0respectfully)
2 kevlar/densiplast combo for the form fit (4/2 for full body if i remember right)

you would be bullet proof, i can see it doing SOME stun dammage, but not like this

Even today a 9x19 is not a heavy pistol; it's probably closer to a medium along with 9x17, 9x18, and 10mm.

Heavy pistols would be .357, .44, .454 and the rather excessive .500. There's a noticable jump in muzzle energy between these rounds, upwards of 50% between a 9mm and .357, the .44 magnum has 3x the energy of a 9mmP. A simplistic comparison of bullet cross-section vs. energy indicates that these rounds will be 150%-200% as effective as punching through armor. (As others will likely leap forth to explain, bullet composition and shape can result in a lot of energy lost to deformation of the slug).

Even if you wanted to classify the .454 and .500 as a "super heavy," there's still plenty of performance delta for the .357 and .44 to be heavy pistols.

NIJ level IIIA is rated to protect from (stop and reduce the blunt trauma to a bearable level of) 9x19mm 124gr FMJ RNs @ 1400fps (540ft-lbs, common .357 Magnum 4" barrel revolver performance level) and from .44 Magnum 240gr SJHPs @ 1400fps (1045ft-lbs). It is also rated against .357 Magnum 158gr JHPs @ 1400fps (688ft-lbs) and .40 S&W 180gr FMJs @ 1025fps (420ft-lbs). This for a concealable vest weighing ~2kg with the newest materials.

Now, a powerful .44 Magnum FMJ load just might penetrate, but AFAIK there's no .44 Magnum ammunition currently on the wide market that can penetrate a level IIIA rated vest when fired from a 7.5" revolver barrel. The full-power super heavies should penetrate easily, but saying an Ares Predator is around .454 Casull power level would be like saying that the AK-97 fires something akin to the .300 Winchester Magnum -- good luck, humans trying to fire these monster guns.

no man dont appologize its just what the discussion needed and my point exactly....
thanks

alright, we'll even say that a predator equates to a colt 1911 .45cal you'd still walk away with minimal bruising you MIGHT be knocked down, and might have the wind knocked out of you, but it wouldnt penetrate unless it caught a weakpoint

I'll add that IIIA will resist all realistitic knife like stab attacks, though it is theoretically defeatable with 'spike' (think icepick) type attacks, though tihs would likely take a 'full body weight' attack and not a 'normal stab'. Also, the armor might be deafeated by a 'spear' as the attacker would be able to bring more of thier body weight to bear on the strike. In any event, these strikes would need to be 'specifically' done to defeat the armor.

In SR4 terms, this is impact armor of 6+, though a 8-9 might be a better representation. Though notice that we then return to the armor effectiveness vs armor coverage argument.

From a first glance, the armor penalties are too extreme, as almost anyone will be slowed down by an armored jacket.

eh. armor's not much fun to wear, even light armor.

I don't doubt that Y2k body armor will stop current rounds and any future rounds that aren't razor sharp or gyrojet. The real trick comes down to comparing concealability and wearability. A quick perusal of the internet says that IIIA armor is 4-5mm thick, which is hard to integrate into street-wear clothing that doesn't look like felt or wool.


Assuming some advancements in material science, it is still pretty easy to interpolate what would happen if you had an impenetrable fabric that was as light and flexible as cotton or nylon. Fitted tightly, it will cause localized bruising similar to getting hit with a small hammer with potentially a larger compression bruise as the fabric is pulled taught. If the clothing isn't particularly tight, the bullet (or knife) will still punch into you but pull the armor along.

Armor jackets and many other forms of outerwear cannot be form fitting and still be unmistakeable as armor, barring a "skin tight" fad. Loose armor would need plates or a stiffening agent, like leather, to distribute the force. Even with a stiffening agent or armor plates you will still suffer blunt trauma as the weapon slams the armor jacket into your body.

Truth of the matter is that the form-fitting armors should have the highest armor ratings when compared to anything that doesn't blatantly look like armor.

i do SCA combat as well, and your right, armor is no joke, (also just got out of the marines so i know the military stuff to) and your right, the form fit is going to be the thing that takes the brunt of the damage, but half the value of the highest armor other than the form fit is what i'm looking at, if it interdicts with the round, then your still going to get a portion of its armor rating into stopping the round....

Question on the power of a weapon when used by a Troll. Or just in comparison to one of the heavy hitters. One of my players pointed out this combination to me and we could not find out if this was meant to be or maybe unforseen.
We have a brand new character who is a Troll with starting strength of 10. Now if he were to use a Panther XXL this would give him 10(P)DV -5AP against ballistic armor. Of course at the start of the game trying to gain access to such equipment and then trying to lug it around could cause some problems.
Now picture a Troll with the ability to take a weapon of equal if not greater force. One that is legal, quiet, cheap, no recoil, and so forth.. What would this trump weapon be... well it is nothing other than.. "The Bow" .. yes you heard correctly .. a plain ordinary bow would become a power house in such a players hand. With a Strength of 10 the DV would start at 12 against impact armor, not to mention the fact that he may add explosive or other tips to these arrows.
When you compare the chance of successful hits to the ability to shrug off the damage you may see that a plain bow can be quite devistating. Or are we reading this wrong. We are not sure if something was over looked when the weapons were designed but I all ways imagined a Panther being a weapon to fear. Now adays I wonder if runners should not flee in terror of a Troll wielding a Bow.. for this would truly be a force to be reckoned with.
Any comments or clarifications would be greatly appreciated in this.

Cheers,
GreyWil

For a start, in SR4 arrows and bolts are opposed by Ballistic Armor, for some reason.

I am hoping they errata bow damage to [STR/2]+2.

I am still scanning the rules but have seen no mention of arrows and bolts being opposed by Ballistic Armor. Can any one give me a reference. Does this mean that if the armor has a ballistic rating no impact attack would get through that armor? So I could not hit the armored player with a throwing dagger instead of an arrow? I may be more confused now. Will have to keep delving into the rules and would appreciate any insight.

p149. Read the previous page on this thread for details.

Great. Thanks for the info it helps.. I knew there was something I missed... of course now I still wonder about the damage ability of a Panther XXL compared to that of the Bow when wielded by a Troll with strength 10 or greater. I have seen what damage can be done to some one, even in armor, from a weapon such as a Panther, but can not imagine an arrow doing the same.

Rest assured you're not the only one to become concerned with the ridiculous Troll Archer. There's already been at least one thread about SR4 uber-bows. It's not a new concern either. SR3 troll-bows we're crazy lethal too.

And since the devs didn't fix it back then, i doubt they'll fix it now. In fact, they added even more craziness later (explosive arrowheads, bow smartlink mounts and the more powerful "Ranger-X" Bow) in the Cannon Companion sourcebook. i can only come to the conclusion that they want it this way.
It is likely that they believe that trolls have the strength and torque to wield what is effectively a ballista. The troll-sized "arrows" are actually spear-like projectiles launched at massive speeds. The bow itself is made from ultra-durable materials that won't snap under the strain, augmented by a hefty pulley system to help offset the massive draw weight. Apparently this is something SR trolls can indeed do.


The Panther still has a -5 AP that a bow can't match. That's good at least...

As SR4 introduced Metalstorm weaponary with the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki, I'm wondering wether one will see Metalstorm Cyberguns in later supplements...

Looking at the damage that a troll bow could do, I can't help but think of Detritus from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. Very funny to read about, but not so funny when it's on one of my player's character sheets.

Y'know, a medieval longbow had ~150lbs of pull and there were large numbers of individuals (hundreds if not thousands) who could pull that bow 10 times a minute for 5-10 minutes straight. Those were probably str:5 individuals and they had a max range of over 300 meters.

Now double the strength (str:10), double the arm length (spring power is proportional to pull with bows), increase the efficiency of the bow by over 25%, oh and make it a compound bow so the total pull can be increased even more. You've got a weapon that's 5-8x more powerful than a longbow. That's a pretty brutal weapon.

The drawback should be that it can only be fired once per action, assuming that hasn't changed. Oh, and panther rounds explode so you can't do a lot of forensics; arrows have a lot of spaces to pick up CSI-able evidence.

The maximum range of a medieval longbow was less than 270 meters, based on arrow and material studies done in the 20th century and assuming that you were firing at a 42 to 45 degree angle with no care to where it will strike. The maximum effective range is no more than 80 meters, tops. The 900 meter estimate of extreme range for bows with a STR 15 individual is simply not achievable due to the physics of archery. Even winch-ballistas can't shoot that far (topping out at about 200 meters).

Well a cap on bow damage is easy to houserule. "Sorry, no one makes compound bows any stronger than Strength Minimum 7. I know that discrimination in the world of competitive archery is a real problem and I have a dream that one day trolls with blah blah blah."

Tom Rooney is a true joker.
Just zoom in on the combat glasses, or the pain inducer.

I have to say it (we have been kidding about this since the 1st ed):

A dragon with a bow!!! Pretty much using telephone poles(dikoted?) as arrows and punching thru anything...

Somewhat OT, sorry. :/

P.S. On a more serious note, I see(on the posts, waiting for paper copy) that armor is treated differently. How does hardened armor work and how available/widespread is it?

Actually, hardend Armor (Vehicle or Critter) is quite simple:

If modified DV does not exceed modified Armor, Damage is not converted into Stun like with normal Armor but simply bounces off.