Ok, bad examples (I didn't know there was a errata for the Bloodspirit thingy).

Take it this way, 21+3d6 Cgen SR3 characters with 2 SMGS and lots of dice would 4 shot every round for three rounds. Lethal, Deadly, and usually unstoppable in combat. But how many examples of them do you see in the rules of SR3?

Or, for instance, my old Summoner of man? I don't see your average mage summoning F12 spirits with little drain.

Players will do pretty powerful things with rules, despite how many things Devs cover in the books. The argument 'Its not presented/done in the books, it shouldn't be so!' is rather strawman and sophomoric.

So, my final word is, allow it. See how many people actually do it, you'll find its a rarity and probably not as earth shattering as people think.

I view it differently. There's nothing to stop people from just using a transceiver with some encryption on it and moving on with their lives. They don't need a wireless computer system at all under the rules. There are no rules for making you more awesome just because you have a direct neural interface to the Matrix, hell even if you wanted to hack things you could just have some Agents and tell to solve your problems for you.

The setting does have people jacking their brains directly into computers. And with the mess of a rules set we have now I am honestly at a loss to explain why anyone would do that. The first computer virus that killed people was over 40 years old when SR4's timeline starts. In real life it only takes seven misfired neurons to send a standing man into a full body seizure - and two cellurlar phones can put out enough EMF to boil an egg.

Honestly, I think that the exploit is not blackhammering people walking around with no personal DNI - the exploit is people not having a DNI in the first place! It is setting inappropriate for people to be allowed to tell the Wireless Matrix to go fuck itself. To simply not have a PAN and communicate through 20th century "walky-talkies" that lack a hackable computer interface. That's bullshit.

The Momhammer isn't an exploit. It's a fix.

-Frank

I think he meant it to be more extreme than that.

As in your brain exploding should be a real threat all the time and going stone age in a cyberpunk setting should simply not come with benefits.
Defending against matrix attacks should be something you have to be active about, instead of just opting out, and playing magic and spies.

I'm personally not sure on which side of the fence I'm on, because wrapping my head around hackers screwing with brains not hooked up to the matrix is very much removed from the day to day experience of using the internets.
On the other hand the wireless matrix is very much central to SR4, so that it goes beyond the simple " I can run Doom on my toaster" aspect. So the character not taking part in it and the character who does, are literally playing different games.

There is the problem of potentially creating unfunded mandates when allowing hacking attacks no matter what, but the benefits of having everyone on the same page when it comes to interaction with the environment outweigh that worry.

I think we should squeeze the dead horse for blood. I think it'll be more productive.

Arguably, you could have an agent assigned to monitor where your sim module is pointed, and when pointed at someone with a DNI connection, attempts to hack that DNI connection, subscribe them to your hot sim module, and blackhammer them. The "hacker" just points at them, the agent does all the work.

Now that's just semantics, whether you make the tests or the agent does, the process is the same.

Yes, but you are bypassing the fact that there must be something to hack in the first place. You can't point the sim module at and have your agent hack someone who is not online, whom you cannot find a signal for, etc. The concept being bantered around that a Hacker can give someone a matrix connection through their sim module still has never been proven.

It was disproven, a number of pages back, you're the only one still hanging onto it. You didn't disprove it, sorry, no credit for you.

...come to think of it. Even though she must carry a commlink it doesn't mean KK needs to be wired into it. After all it does come with a roll out keypad interface according to the description. So in a way, you can still use it like the old fashioned Pocket Secretary.

...so go ahead Black Hammer until you are blue in the face, techboy...

...and I hope you enjoy the little surprise my buddy Harper put in there.

This has been one of the more bizarre threads I've ever come across in my time on dumpshock.

We have a setting where Crash 1.0 and 2.0 have turned the world on its head. AIs kill millions in public spectacles. Virii and worms destroy untold numbers of lives. Technomancers run amuk in a society that doesn't understand them. It is a Sprite haunted world.

And yet people still wonder why, ICly, people wouldn't take extreme precautions to avoid "The Momhammer?" Under some of the extreme set of logic I've seen in this thread, entire cities of people can be killed through e-warfare without a single round of ammunition being expended. Guns, ammo, drones, spirits, spells, etc... all incur a cost. In "Momhammer" theory, a good hacker could use one commlink, and then capture the digital resources around him to launch infinite warfare at the cost of... energy from the power grid. Free.

All society needs to prevent that nightmare is a physical wireless off switch. Why deny something so simple, so easy, and so necessary?

Well, I suppose it is hardly free. Honestly, in the world of "Momhammer" your PC is probably dead before chargen. Oops, you had a random encounter with a roving mob of 40 "Momhammer" agents. The whole party is dead.

I realize I'm using some of the more extreme viewpoints from this thread, but come on. How are we supposed to take the rational part of this thread seriously when we've got hubris like that being tossed around?

Well, the best way to avoid it is to hardwire your sim module to your DNI. Don't use a wireless DNI, it's dangerous! Probably comes with a Surgeon's General warning: "Use of Wireless DNI can expose your brain to malicious and dangerous code. Use at your own risk."

This is a "my game" interpretation, but in my Sixth World, most people have a fiber optic cable running from their 'jack to their commlink. Or they have an implanted commlink and the DNI and sim module are all hardwired together in their brain and the DNI is not independently wireless. But my Sixth World still has a love-hate relationship with the Matrix, it is still a seductive but dangerous world. People want all the ease of the Wireless Matrix, but they are still scared shitless of it, with the Second Crash and crazy Technomancers and AIs emerging. There's a certain anxiety to the Matrix, like my RL coworker who loves to pirate off her apartment neighbors' open wireless but is constantly bugging me with fear that her private data is being hacked.

hmm, skinlink?

Yeah, I left out skinlinks accidentally. They are another method that I would think most people would use.

I think the writing in SR4 went a little overboard in selling wireless, which gives the impression that everything is talking to everything else with radio waves, which shouldn't really be the case. The important part of the Wireless Matrix is the radio waves going from a commlink to the Matrix.

I have to say that I disagree with nearly everything Frank just said. And waving hyperbole all over the place doesn't make it any more accurate.

I could pick out each section and offer a counter-argument, but I think that's just going in circles given how long this thread has gone on. I've already explained why the initial post does not work at all. If the fact that it does not work makes Shadowrun unplayable, I think that's a determination each player has to make. But I certainly don't think it does.

I think most users should have been able to figure out by now that Frank definitely has his own opinions on things.

im just wondering, didnt frank work with fanpro when SR4 was created? or am i getting him mixed up with someone else?

Frank--

Let's start with the basic fallacy of your argument.

Matrix does not equal Magic.

You are correct, that just by disbelieving Magic you cannot protect yourself. The same could be said that one cannot fly by disbelieving the laws of physics. Thaumaturgy is effectively Astral Physics and magic works by a set of conditions and laws the same as Physics.

The Matrix on the other hand, while insidious is not part of the natural order. If we EMP the world and destroy all electronic devices, magic still works. If you go to the middle of the Sahara Desert, magic still works even though you are completely free of all wireless signals.

Now, as far as turning off the matrix to protect you, I state that it does work but not without consequences. (More on this later.) If an individual is not connected to the Matrix, they cannot be black hammered. We've already had dozens of posts arguing that without a Matrix connection, adverse effects of the Matrix cannot effect you. At this point you are simply using an argument ad nauseum and banking on the personal credits of previous freelancer experience to lend your words credibility.

People plug their brains into computers, because it is a faster, cleaner interface. Yes, there are downsides and problems that come from doing such but in the cost-benefit analysis, society within the bounds of Shadowrun has decided that the benefits outweigh the costs. Yes, there was a Crash in 2029 and a second Crash in 2065. During the periods immediately following the crashes, a lack of confidence in the system would lead to a decline in quotidian usage. However, as time goes on, people again build confidence in the systems--media giants explain all the new features of safety that have been built into the Matrix and more people jack back in.

Technogenesis by Synne Mitchell did an excellent job of showing a wireless society, and the downfalls to going offline. The downsides to not being online on the most basic level, relegates you to the life of one of the SINless. Without Matrix access, you have no online banking, no communications, no place in society. Try living a few months without going to a store, because they don't take hard currency; not having medical insurance because you cannot have your identity verified online; not able to take public transportation because you can't purchase a ticket. These are the reasons that Society uses the Matrix.

The truly paranoid shadowrunners who need to interact with society on a basic needs level, will utilize Matrix specialists to ensure that they are limiting their exposure and liability when they are online. When they don't need to interact, I'd expect them to be offline.

Can a hacker break into an individual's commlink and change their subscriptions to include a lethal device and kill them? Yes, this is very similar to a street samurai walking down the street drawing his gun and shooting someone. It can happen, but doing it has repercussions.

Now maybe you are leaving freelancing because you have better things to do, or maybe you don't agree with the direction that the game has been developed in the past. Either way, attempting to tear apart a system that works just because you came up with an idea for an exploit that's not an exploit is at the best pigheaded.

hell, most of my friends kinda drop of the planet if their mobiles get broken today. i dont want to imagine a similar incident in SR...

I'm not sure what his exact credits were in SR4's core development. I believe he wrote the Spirits chapter in Street Magic, and the Cybermancy chapter in Augmentation.

During the development and playtesting process, each of the playtesting groups will send in reports, feedback and answer polls. Those ideas and comments were taken by the Powers that Be and integrated into the game system.

not 100% sure on this, but i think Frank was not involved in the core book, only in the expansions (street magic and augmentation).

would explain a bit.

including his statements about the unfixability of the matrix rules as the follow-up books should not contradict the earlier ones.

Personally I don't see why it's so hard to order an agent to do something as simple as monitor the number of accounts and/or subscription lists on a device. Any changes made to that number instantly has the agent alert its owner and offer to begin a shutdown process (or any other action you want it to do).

Considering that it seems the only way to hack into a device is to add a new account, it seems like a pretty damn simple yet nearly fullproof protection to me, at least as far as personal devices go. Especially since it takes at least one full Initiative Pass to create that account before you can actively do anything of note. <shrugs>

Not really, as the Matrix isn't one of my strong points.

I will point to the fact the the phrase 'account privilages' is used throughout the Matrix section, as is reference to the type of 'accounts' available through either of the two accepted hacking methods. The terminology is used quite liberally throughout the entire book.

But, let me ask you this. Can you supply a quote that states that an 'account' is not created when one hacks into a system?

what if one instead hacks a existing account?

and is there not text in the book about having to hack a admin account on some user devices as thats the only account available?

heh, i wouldn't go that far. "hacker" and "account" at least get mentioned (quite a few times!) in the books; "death ray" and "i fries your brains from orbits" are not, as far as i can tell, mentioned anywhere.

Yup. By my reading, if you are getting in on a stolen passcode/key, you are using a legitimate account with all of the associated privileges.

If you break in, you are treated as though you had an account at the level at which you managed to succeed in your break in attempt. Treated as though, but if the system notices you, it starts trying to bust you. If you had created an account, what reason would the system have for not considering you a legitimate user?