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hyzmarca
Requiring that a sim module be directly connected to the trodes makes nanopaste useless.

Hacking worn trodes should technically be possible, and would allow one to bypass the comlink altogether.
Penta
Technically, maybe.

But does that mean it is something that should *ever* happen?

...No.
BishopMcQ
The entire concept behind the post and the pursuant war, makes me think that I'm watching Fox news. Sensationalism with only the barest of substance to support any of it.

Sim Module--Must be accessed via trodes or DNI.

Trodes--The net/headband enables the wearer to experience simsense.

Right there we stop the concept of increasing the signal range of the trodes to effect people who are not online and in the matrix. This means that everyone who has turned their trodenet off is safe. You can't hack a computer that has been unplugged.

Now the widescale broadcast only works, if the sim module has been subscribed to the device. As the spoof test to convince the device that it is supposed to listen to the Sim Module per RAW only works on Drones and Agents, the trodes and DNI cannot be used this way. That means we have to hack into the device the old fashioned way and edit the subscription list.

If no commlink is present, as has been espoused above, the device rating will kick in. All devices have a device rating, which includes a Firewall--thus not having a commlink while the test is probably easier, does not mean that the trode is completely helpless.

So, scan for signals to identify the one you want, Exploit to crack the firewall, browse to find the subscription list, and edit to change the list so that it now accepts input from the Sim Module. Once that has been input, the sim module now must switch modes from AR to VR, and then attack with the black hammer.

All the while, you will also need to be spoofing your own AccessID, washing your trail, and dodging anyone else who takes notice to your Persona while doing this.
Penta
Does the Sim Module need to be accessed through a wired connection, or does wireless work just as well?
BishopMcQ
The Sim Module has wireless capability.
Ophis
Sorry forget to specify, I count a skinlink as an equivalent to a wired link.

I'm fine with a sim module picking up data wirelessly, then converting said data in to hot or cold sim.
Thomas
I have always thought the concept of trodes to be taken from ‘electrodes’ – in this context part of the apparatus of an electro encephalograph. I felt the original authors seized on the concept and extrapolated that if ‘modern’ science could measure (read) brainwaves then future science should be able to induce (write) brainwaves. Some background of the contemporary science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography
QUOTE

In the 1950s, English physician William Grey Walter developed an adjunct to EEG called EEG topography which allowed for the mapping of electrical activity across the surface of the brain. This enjoyed a brief period of popularity in the 1980s and seemed especially promising for psychiatry. It was never accepted by neurologists and remains primarily a research tool.

If my theory is correct, then the ‘trode’ of older versions would need to be in direct contact with the scalp or implanted. The low frequencies of brainwaves make it highly unlikely that trodes beam radio waves into the subject’s brain – it is much more likely that they induce voltage potentials in the brain. A reasonable guess is that effect is accomplished by setting up interference patterns – thereby increasing signal in some areas while decreasing it in others.
Pump all the data you want into a persons brain – as long as it’s through an implant (DNI) or trodes.
My 0.02
Draconis
Frank dude, you've been studying physics too hard lately. You're not seriously suggesting that M'bemwe the australian aborigine with not a scrap of tech on him needs to pick up a comlink and learn hacking to defend himself because Slam-O could happen by and fry his brain with the right tweaked equipment? Break out the damn aluminum foil hats yo.

Thats fucked in game and out of game on so many levels I shouldn't even have to go into it. There are those that avoid tech altogether to sidestep any issues or problems generated by it.

You're just stirring up trouble cause you want to write Unwired. nyahnyah.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Draconis @ Sep 8 2007, 05:58 PM)
You're just stirring up trouble cause you want to write Unwired.  nyahnyah.gif

Actually, exactly the opposite is true. I have a number of reasons to be fearful of the end product of Unwired, and I didn't even submit a proposal. I genuinely believe that Unwired will, like Matrix 2.0 and Virtual Realities before it essentially divide the player base into tribes who use mutually unintelligible Matrix systems as well as causing a substantial number of groups to simply give up and get rid of the Matrix specialist altogether - relegating the position to an NPC or TraceBuster box with a "go button".

In short, as Unwired comes closer I foresee a time in which I will have to write a hard set of Matrix house rules that will be really extensive. So I'm positioning myself to do that.

Unfortunately, I think it'll be easier to write one now and then ignore most of Unwired when it arrives then look at the contents, weep, and rush job something to cover things later.

QUOTE (Sma)
- Everything has an Icon, that you can interact with.
- No rolls at all to see an Icon unless there's stealth or EW involved.
- The realspace positions of Icons should match their matrix and or AR positions. Although it is probably better to handle
- Accounts and their levels, while being realistic are a pain in the ass since there's very little reason not to shoot for admin and basically having a free ride from then on. They add a decidely nonfun amount of bookkeeping on the basis that you're supposed to figure out what account level allows exactly what operation for each and every node you visit.
- ASA and the mix of program rating skill and logic have been mentioned and are imo either insolvable in case of agents or reasonably easily houseruled.
- Agents or semiintelligent programs should be everywhere. The rules mention cyberpets, cyberfriends and cyberlandscapes. This should be what an agent is. Making them more than glorified Browse, Knowsoft (hot cyberlovin') and Analyze (0), doesn't add to the game in a good way.
- Dicepool sizes from 1-20, which is pretty close to what SR gives us at the moment, so no major quibble there.
- Compatability with the existing Cyberware and Equipment such as medkits, maglockpickers, etc.
- Program ratings that either exist in a meaningful way, or get dropped altogether.
- Simrigs, simmodules and trodenets/datajacks should be one unit. AR gets projected right in your brain.
- Bigger incentives for everyone to get the implanted version if available. Replacing your eyes or drilling a hole in your head fits the setting, getting reusable contact lenses or a hairnet decidedly is not.


Sma, that's a pretty good list. Here's mine:
  • The player characters should be the center of the story, not equipment.
  • The level of abstraction of Matrix action should stay constant.
  • The number of die rolls required should stay manageable enough that the game is playable while drunk.
  • The Matrix specialist should be an important and playable member of the team.
Last I checked, Unwired intended to address precisely zero of my concerns, so I'm not interested in it.

---

Anyway, I'm leaving the country for a week in two days. So this project is going to backburner for a while. Sma, would you like me to send you what I have so far and add on to it while I'm gone? I've worked in collaborative writing projects before. You can see the results of my work with Keith for Dungeons and Dragons over here.

Anyways, I was thinking of using much the same format and interspersing diatribes, in-character material, and game crunch in a semi-logical essay format. The Matrix is every bit as divorced from our current understanding of reality as Magic is, and I believe that it needs the essays at least as much as D&D alignment does.

-Frank
Red
I readily understand datajacks as DNIs. I have never really liked trodes, but I can understand the desire and need for them. They have a justifiable place in the game.

But trodes that work at arbitrary range, ala one way brainwave ray gun? I don't consider that Black Hammer. I call that a super ammo efficient microwave gun. What is the point, really?
BishopMcQ
Red--The good news is that trodes don't work at an arbitrary range. Whomever came up with that concept has been hitting the crack pipe a little too hard. Per RAW, they only work for the person they are attached to (ie. Physically stuck to their head).
fistandantilus4.0
Damn ... there's a lot of people calling each other stupid in this thread. Lighten up guys.

Frank - love the thread title. I don't think electrodes work that way, but it makes me wonder waht more technomancers would have to worry about. Normal people don't receive radio siganals to their brains like technos do. My understanding is that electrodes transmit tiny amounts of current to the brain, ie not the same as radio signals. So technomancers would have to worrry about he death ray, but they'e already got the defense built in.
Kyoto Kid
...hmmm, but nobody yet said how dear Janie's gulliver could become turned into scrambled eggie weggies.
fistandantilus4.0
.... huh?
BishopMcQ
I laid out one way, but it was no different than any other hacking attempt.
Draconis
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 9 2007, 01:37 AM)
Damn ... there's a lot of people calling each other stupid in this thread. Lighten up guys.

I think you're reading too much into things Fisty.


I'll take Unwired over System Failure and especially Emergence but ya I really don't have any real interest in it either. Good luck Frank and remember, "Rectifier!". biggrin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
I was mostly referring to Doc and mfb sniping at each other. At least it was only a short exchange of fire.
Draconis
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 9 2007, 03:39 AM)
I was mostly referring to Doc and mfb sniping at each other. At least it was only a short exchange of fire.

Oh, I'm too used to that to notice anymore.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Draconis)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 9 2007, 03:39 AM)
I was mostly referring to Doc and mfb sniping at each other. At least it was only a short exchange of fire.

Oh, I'm too used to that to notice anymore.

It's kinda like living in a warzone; eventually, the gunfire just becomes part of the background noise.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Damn ... there's a lot of people calling each other stupid in this thread. Lighten up guys.

Ideas being stupid != people being stupid.

QUOTE
Frank - love the thread title. I don't think electrodes work that way, but it makes me wonder waht more technomancers would have to worry about. Normal people don't receive radio siganals to their brains like technos do. My understanding is that electrodes transmit tiny amounts of current to the brain, ie not the same as radio signals. So technomancers would have to worrry about he death ray, but they'e already got the defense built in.

By canon, just turning wireless "off" equals complete invulnerability to the concept. They're trying feebly to find a loophole around that simply because the rules don't go into detailed descriptions of how every piece of gear works, or because some of them use more questionable explanations.
Gelare
eek.gif

Frank, YOU'RE the writer of the Dungeonomicon!? Those books are all brilliant! I've read 'em all a bajillion times!

/worship

Umm, you get so many coolness points. That is all.
fistandantilus4.0
I'd honestly thought that the point was Frank playing devil's advocate to show another potential break in the game, and not really trying to sell the death ray. Am I off base Frank?
toturi
QUOTE (Gelare)
eek.gif

Frank, YOU'RE the writer of the Dungeonomicon!? Those books are all brilliant! I've read 'em all a bajillion times!

/worship

Umm, you get so many coolness points. That is all.

You have crossed the line into by working and enjoying on the Cancernomicon! You must be purged! biggrin.gif
Ranneko
No Frank, you may theoretically be able to provide the sim module, but you cannot wirelessly provide the trodes or datajack, the person has to be wearing them.
nathanross
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Posted on Sep 8 2007, 11:20 PM)
I'd honestly thought that the point was Frank playing devil's advocate to show another potential break in the game, and not really trying to sell the death ray. Am I off base Frank?
This was my impression as well. Frank has already said that this is an issue that he noticed in the rules. I personally don't see him advocating it as something that should be done, but throwing it out there for you to explore.

I for one, don't even see it as a possibility, or at least not so much in the way stated. The underlying issue I see is what is the difference between trodes (nanopaste or headband) and Datajacks.

The ability wire a sim module to a jack and let loose death inducing levels of ASIST has long been a possibility. And with the introduction of the wireless matrix, doing the same wirelessly (if the data jack is somehow hooked up to a wireless receiver) is now also a possibility.

The issue is when we introduce trodes to the mix, which by RAW, have the exact same effect as a wired datajack. This is wrong. No matter what the rules say, a trode net or nanopasted should never have the same effect as a datajack. How trodes work and how they are then connected to the users PAN is something else that needs to be elaborated on.

Based on RAW, if someone is outfitted with trodes, the remote sim module with Black hammer or black out is completely viable. This is a rules issue and could somewhat be a fluff issue. I would start by saying that most people don't use trodes, at least not all the time. They may be necessary for the virtual workplace just as datajacks where 10 years ago, but you clock out, you take them off and put on the glasses.

AR will be the big thing, and just as windows95 allowed old people to access the internet, so AR will allow the previous generation to experience whats new in a much easier way. Now most will say, the matrix has been around forever, well I still think your mom or grandma will feel much more at home with easily removed glasses than with disembodied virtual floating.

I really wish everyone here would watch Dennou Coil, a very good anime which gives very needed flavor to AR. It is still unlicensed (meaning legal to download) and I hope the admins will allow this link.

[Administrative Edit by Adam: While I understand that the anime community & creators generally turns a blind eye and in some cases encourages international distribution of their work before it is licensed in other countries, it is, to the best of our knowledge, still an infringement of copyright, and thus against the ToS. I've removed the link for now. Please PM me if you have questions about this policy, or have some sort of reference that proves it does not, in any way, violate copyright. And, to be clear: I know that the page itsself nor the "torrent files" do not actually contain any information covered by copyright, but obviously, the intent is clear.]

One last thing I have to say is to Franks comment about the parallels between magic and matrix. I competely agree, though there is a very important difference. I liken it to a door. Magic is like pounding in the front door. It is raw power directed in whatever way the user wishes, and most people are scarred of this and blockade heavily against it. The matrix on the other hand, is what the other 99% of humans trust and rely on to live their lives. It permeates everything we do in 2070, and those who can coax it have a back door into everyone's affairs. Most people think their back door is relatively safe, but those large glass windows break much easier than the front and are away from the neighbors prying eyes.

This is why a team must always have both to be complete.
Prime Mover
Sometimes after reading Franks What ifs I start to think he was an arsonist in a past life and just likes to watch the flames lol.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Gelare)
eek.gif

Frank, YOU'RE the writer of the Dungeonomicon!? Those books are all brilliant! I've read 'em all a bajillion times!

/worship

Umm, you get so many coolness points. That is all.

It's actually a tag team effort between Keith (who goes on the internet by "K") and myself. So I'm an author of those books. It all started when Keith got shot and couldn't work and my grandfather (who I had been taking care of) died of spinal cancer. We wrote all four of those pieces in four months. Since then, Keith got into law school and I have been working 60 hours a week as an EMT. So we do a lot less role playing game projects. If my interview goes well, I'll be in med school in 2008 so it is highly doubtful that the Book of Gears will ever get finished.

I'm basically looking at finishing my Western and putting together a Matrix "tome" and then I don't think I'll do any more RPG writing for at least four years. But I'm glad that my writing made someone happy - that's always good to hear.

QUOTE (Ranneko)
No Frank, you may theoretically be able to provide the sim module, but you cannot wirelessly provide the trodes or datajack, the person has to be wearing them.


That's certainly how they are described as being used. But the key here is Nanopaste. Not only does it just transmit electrical signals (which could just as easily come from farther away), but Altskin provides a DNI and doesn't even have to be near your head to do it.

So the question is: all the wearable DNIs have a Signal rating of 0 or less; but is there any actual reason that they couldn't have more? Would a signal booster attached to one of them do what it says that it does?

-Frank
mfb
i wasn't aware that nanopaste didn't have to be on your head to be used. that certainly isn't what i intended when i suggested it. and even if it doesn't, it still has to be touching your skin. given how awesome and terrible non-implanted-nor-skin-touchy DNI would be, i think the rules pretty much make it impossible simply by not mentioning it.
Seven-7
QUOTE (Gelare)
QUOTE (Seven-7 @ Sep 8 2007, 02:05 PM)
Sure, its a precise object that points radio noise at the right place, and it has to be positioned at the right places...Yadda yadda.

But thats because its small. What if I wanted a room sized trode net? Saying it wouldn't work?

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Upgrading the signal from 1 to 10 on something is not as simple as paying a couple thousand nuyen. It actually changes the physical object - battery packs, transmitter dishes, etc. I'm now picturing a guy walking around with a satellite dish poking up from inside his backpack.

Anyway, if you specially designed a room to transmit those trode net signals, and then you stood in the perfect center of it, it'd work. But if you were off in the corner, you'd probably feel a bit weird, but you wouldn't go VR.

QUOTE (mfb)
that actually doesn't mean much. if you've got a raygun that can induce signals in someone's brain at a distance, you don't need precision to kill them. just flip it on full power and they'll collapse in convulsions.


Yep, no arguments there. Just nuke someone's brain. No need for black hammer, just point some major radioactivity their way.

That's akin to telling me that going from a 802.11a to 802.11n would mean I'd have to have a room sized router. Which is bull, even in Shadowrun, just take a look at Device Rating table, Deltaware has a DR of 6, which means a Signal of 6, and the Device Rating paragraph details that some Devices may /be retooled to have a larger attribute/.
Ol' Scratch
The point is that it could have a Signal of 1,000,000 and it wouldn't change a thing. The user of DNI has complete control over both the actual DNI controls and any device linked to it. So even if you could snag someone with your nanopaste trodes of doom, all you're doing is giving them exactly the same control over your devices as you have.
Gelare
QUOTE (Seven-7)
QUOTE (Gelare @ Sep 8 2007, 02:34 PM)
QUOTE (Seven-7 @ Sep 8 2007, 02:05 PM)
Sure, its a precise object that points radio noise at the right place, and it has to be positioned at the right places...Yadda yadda.

But thats because its small. What if I wanted a room sized trode net? Saying it wouldn't work?

Yep, that's what I'm saying. Upgrading the signal from 1 to 10 on something is not as simple as paying a couple thousand nuyen. It actually changes the physical object - battery packs, transmitter dishes, etc. I'm now picturing a guy walking around with a satellite dish poking up from inside his backpack.

Anyway, if you specially designed a room to transmit those trode net signals, and then you stood in the perfect center of it, it'd work. But if you were off in the corner, you'd probably feel a bit weird, but you wouldn't go VR.

QUOTE (mfb)
that actually doesn't mean much. if you've got a raygun that can induce signals in someone's brain at a distance, you don't need precision to kill them. just flip it on full power and they'll collapse in convulsions.


Yep, no arguments there. Just nuke someone's brain. No need for black hammer, just point some major radioactivity their way.

That's akin to telling me that going from a 802.11a to 802.11n would mean I'd have to have a room sized router. Which is bull, even in Shadowrun, just take a look at Device Rating table, Deltaware has a DR of 6, which means a Signal of 6, and the Device Rating paragraph details that some Devices may /be retooled to have a larger attribute/.

Fair enough, technology in SR is such that upgrading trodes from Signal 0 to, say, 3, wouldn't be tough, or make them bulky or unwieldy. It's also true that some devices can be set up with a higher Signal rating - this doesn't mean all devices, nor does it mean no limit to Signal, but that's stuff for the GM to work out. I don't object to pumping the Signal on your trodes, but I still very much object to the assertion that this would do anything at all. Because of the delicate and precise requirements of beaming fancy VR signals into someone's brain, there's no way you could simply build a gun out of high-Signal trodes and be like, "Haha, now you fall to the ground and dream of android sheep!" (I don't even know why I thought of android sheep. Was there some book or satire or something?)
Crusher Bob
No, they have as much control as the device allows them to. The fact that I jacked into your commlink (connected to it via wired DNI) doesn't give me full control over it. In fact, I might not have any control over the DNI granting device itself.
mfb
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
The user of DNI has complete control over both the actual DNI controls and any device linked to it.

that's not true at all. if it were, LS wouldn't use simsense loops to keep magical prisoners sedated. even datajacks can be implanted that do not give the prisoner DNI control over the functioning of the 'jack. otherwise, any mage with half a brain would just turn the datajack off and start working on an escape plan. at the very least, the functioning of black IC tells us that ASIST data can make it extremely difficult to jack out.

of course, you'd still need a method of inducing ASIST signals at a distance, which i'm no longer convinced is possible with the existing SR tech.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Seven-7)
just take a look at Device Rating table, Deltaware has a DR of 6, which means a Signal of 6, and the Device Rating paragraph details that some Devices may /be retooled to have a larger attribute/.

It also details that Device Rating is only used for Devices als long as they don't really matter, and the GM is to assign attributes if they do. At wich point the Signal Rating table comes in and cyberware is low signal again.
Fortune
QUOTE (Gelare)
... I don't even know why I thought of android sheep. Was there some book or satire or something?

The book that the movie Bladerunner was based on was called Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. wink.gif
Sma
QUOTE
Sma, would you like me to send you what I have so far and add on to it while I'm gone?


Sent PM
Demonseed Elite
Sorry, what the hell? No, this does not work at all.

ASIST works through targeted application of electrical and ultrasound pulses on the brain. These are low intensity signals for a variety of reasons, not the least being that high-intensity electrical signals electrocute and burn you and high-intensity ultrasound heats organic tissue and cooks it.

It also has to be precisely targeted for a number of reasons. Ultrasound has trouble passing through bone and reflects all over the place. If it's not precisely targeted and applied, it's going to end up a scattered wave that won't accomplish anything at all.

There is a very good reason why the description for nanopaste trodes says "this highly sensitive, high-tech nanite paste can be used to paint an electrode net around the head." Because it has to be around the head. I'm sure there are lots of drugged-up clubgoers that paint their stomachs with nanopaste trodes, but it won't do a damn thing aside from sending minute electrical and ultrasound pulses into their stomach. Even an altskin skinlink isn't going to help; it could move the signal around the electrical field on the body, but skinlinks are not precise enough to apply the signals to the correct areas of the skull, are likely not strong enough to pass through bone (they usually do not have to pass through dense material) nor can skinlinks reproduce the ultrasound signals.

You can't just boost the signal to have an ASIST Ray Beam of Death shoot hot sim into grandma's skull. You are talking about high levels of electrical and ultrasound signal, which are going to fry grandma all right, but not with hot ASIST.
Seven-7
You're applying science to Shadowrun, something thats mostly going to fail.

It's when the Troll Oak Shaman casts Enhanced Aim on his HMG to shoot down the shape changed Dragon that likes to be a Thunderbird while he's vacationing from owning a global corporation that you'll realize science and SR dont mix smile.gif
Tarantula
I'm gonna agree, descriptions of trodes and nano-paste states that it must be on the head in order to work. Thusly, no remote trode nets of doom.
WearzManySkins
I too agree, trodes have to be in skin contact/oh the head etc, no death ray of Black Hammer.

WMS
mfb
QUOTE (Seven-7)
It's when the Troll Oak Shaman casts Enhanced Aim on his HMG to shoot down the shape changed Dragon that likes to be a Thunderbird while he's vacationing from owning a global corporation that you'll realize science and SR dont mix

the presence of the fantastic necessitates realism in the non-fantastic elements in order to help players and GMs maintain suspension of disbelief. there's certainly a lot of wiggle-room, but anywhere realism can fit that doesn't disrupt the flow, feel, and fun of the game, it should be crammed in.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Seven-7)
You're applying science to Shadowrun, something thats mostly going to fail.

It's when the Troll Oak Shaman casts Enhanced Aim on his HMG to shoot down the shape changed Dragon that likes to be a Thunderbird while he's vacationing from owning a global corporation that you'll realize science and SR dont mix smile.gif

...yeah, but here we are not talking about magic here, we are talking tech. With tech, science should have a much stronger influence. If not, then the whole bloody game is nothing but "magic" & we might as well be playing the game that should not be mentioned in the 21st century.

...excuse me, gotta get back to Aeon Labs now wink.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...yeah, but here we are not talking about magic here, we are talking tech.  With tech, science should have a much stronger influence. 

Have you looked at the SR computer rules lately? rotfl.gif
hyzmarca
http://www.watt-evans.com/playinggod.html
QUOTE (Lawrence Watt-Evans)
If you show your hero on a horse, the reader will say to himself, "Aha! A horse! I know what they're like."

If you then give the horse a few lines of dialogue, the reader will say, "Aha! Horses can talk!"

But if you then have your horse pick up a gun and shoot somebody, the reader will balk. "Wait a minute," he'll say, "Horses don't have fingers!"


And this quote applies to long-distance 'trodes very well.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...yeah, but here we are not talking about magic here, we are talking tech.  With tech, science should have a much stronger influence. 

Have you looked at the SR computer rules lately? rotfl.gif

..yeah, and that is what bothers me. Of course trying to predict where information technologies will be in even a couple years (much less 60) is about as certain as predicting weather in the Midwest.

I remember in the early 80s when an SF game tried to equate the computing power used for starships in RL terms. A year or so later (using their basis), a C-64 could run a battlecruiser & an Apple IIe (1984), a multi mega-tonne death star.

grinbig.gif
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
http://www.watt-evans.com/playinggod.html

Yes indeed. See also Holly Lisle's "Fantasy Is Not for Sissies: Real Rules for Real Worlds"

Sadly, other then Frank, the SR writers and developers don't seem to get #6.
fistandantilus4.0
I disagree with the application of #6. That's in a fantasy setting where magic becomes the technology. In SR, technology is the technology. And only 1% of the population can use magic, making it difficult to put into use in a service industry. Especially since the mages that do sell their services charge exorbiant fees for it. I don't think that it would never happen. I could see some shipping being expedited with the help of a water elemental using movement on a large ship. But I don't think it would happen often.
Sma
How do people deal with luddites in their game then.
Are there no noticeable drawbacks for the "I just use my commlink as a phone" characters ?
Or do they get slapped with social penalties on par with a troll at a Humanis meet ?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Sma)
Are there no noticeable drawbacks for the "I just use my commlink as a phone" characters ?
Or do they get slapped with social penalties on par with a troll at a Humanis meet ?

...that's about all KK can do with it, and even then it takes some effort. She seems to get along fine though, especially since she has a Loyalty 6 "Matrix Specialist" contact (Hacker just sounds to droll) looking after her datatrail.
Adarael
QUOTE (Sma)
How do people deal with luddites in their game then.
Are there no noticeable drawbacks for the "I just use my commlink as a phone" characters ?
Or do they get slapped with social penalties on par with a troll at a Humanis meet ?

Well, in some cases, people who notice are definitely gonna laugh at the guy. This is on par with someone nowadays refusing to accept the ubiquity computers, and who refuses to have anything to do with them. Including ATMs, credit cards, cell phones, etc. You can do it, you're just an idiot.

What's more, the lack of the commlink IS the penalty itself. You want something automated, diagnosed, analyzed, looked up, integrated, parsed, mailed, remailed, tracked, lost, or found? You can't do it. At all. You have to have someone else do it for you. Picture this:
Runner team of 4, infiltrating a building. 1 is staked out by the door, 2 and 3 are searching the second floor, and 4 is in the security room eyeballing the monitors after killing the security rigger. None use commlinks, to preserve their wireless invsibility.

The counter-team is a team of 4, each who have commlinks wired together. Their cyberware is networked so that each one has access to the video/audio of the others, their radar and ultrasound scanners, the spider drones they've brought along, and real-time updates from the matrix. They're out to hunt and kill the first team. 1 is waiting to cut power to the building with a charge he's laid, and is eyeing the front with his rifle. 2 and 3 are going in through the roof, at opposite ends, to better cover the second foor. 4 is going to rush the fire exit and get down the security room.

All skills, money, and stats being equal, it's trivial to see that team #2 is going to utterly mop the floor with team #1 based purely on their network.

There are times and places to maintain wireless silence, but if it's your way of life, you're operating at a gross disadvantage.
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