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Hartbaine
QUOTE (Adarael)
Sometimes there really is a canadian girlfriend!

She said she'd call! <sobs uncontrollably>
kzt
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
Either he is going to be able to get the systems externally in which case he does all his work while everyone else plays super smash bros, or he cannot, in which case HE plays super smash bro until the team gets past the security perimeter for long enough to connect a wireless node as a relay, or hell even throw a wireless node in the window, then they all play super smash bros while he owns the system, then he goes back to super smash bros while the team runs around and does their thing.

Have the hacker as an NPC. It works fine and doesn't require trying to turn the goo that is the SR computer rules into something that actually has useful and workable mechanics. The hacker can do exactly what the plot requires, every time, with some random variation around that for interest.

Or start from scratch. Start out with a clear design concept, write a theoretical idea of how stuff works based on this, then write mechanics that implement it, then test them with people who have to read the rules and figure out how it works (and verify that what they come up by reading the rules is what you intended), then have it blind tested by people who don't know the game and so don't have expectations as to how it should work and what they should be able to do, followed by having people trying to break and abuse them to see what happens.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 17 2007, 08:29 PM)
Either he is going to be able to get the systems externally in which case he does all his work while everyone else plays super smash bros, or he cannot, in which case HE plays super smash bro until the team gets past the security perimeter for long enough to connect a wireless node as a relay, or hell even throw a wireless node in the window, then they all play super smash bros while he owns the system, then he goes back to super smash bros while the team runs around and does their thing.

Have the hacker as an NPC. It works fine and doesn't require trying to turn the goo that is the SR computer rules into something that actually has useful and workable mechanics. The hacker can do exactly what the plot requires, every time, with some random variation around that for interest.

Or start from scratch. Start out with a clear design concept, write a theoretical idea of how stuff works based on this, then write mechanics that implement it, then test them with people who have to read the rules and figure out how it works (and verify that what they come up by reading the rules is what you intended), then have it blind tested by people who don't know the game and so don't have expectations as to how it should work and what they should be able to do, followed by having people trying to break and abuse them to see what happens.

haha - yeah, I'm pretty sure thats what the consensus was. Setting the archtype on fire isn't really an option as I feel it's sort of part of 'cyberpunk' fiction.

I see the best fix in giving the guy lots more stuff to do on the road using his primary shtick, but not tooo sure where to start. Hell, if I could i'd be a freelance game designer in my spare time nyahnyah.gif
Kyoto Kid
...and who's to say that Matrix Terrorism wouldn't involve financial or more subtle and sinister motives.

If you can mess up a company or individual and fatten your credstick in the process it's win-win. Destroying the life of someone in a position of power or a firm's reputation can be far more satisfying and effective than outright killing them or blowing up their facility.

For example, my Matrix Specialist Violet would like nothing more than the see "Uncle Olaf's" (her nickname for the corp. that stole her childhood) wardens, Ms. Ryan and Mr Peterson (the counsellors assigned as her guardians after he parents disappeared) pushing shopping trolleys through the slums of Boston. Yeah it would be easy to just put a silencer on a Predator and shoot them but far more enjoyable to see them squirm for a change.

...yeah, Vi is a shameless kind of gal.

The best saboteurs are the ones who do their job clean, quiet and efficiently, without any chest thumping. This is what separates a professional from a hooligan.
eidolon
And to bring the "level" down a bit, in addition to the high-end "hack the super computer and wipe out corporate CEO Bob's existence" (which I'm coming to feel is a holdover from the "feel" of previous editions), remember that hackers are now supposed to be going on the run just like any other team member.

The team is hired to drive to a remote location on the lava flats. They've been hired to break into a small corp chemical facility there and sabotage operations.
- trick the gate into thinking they're a legitimate delivery vehicle
- edit the gate camera's feed to keep them from showing up as they enter
- all the while his spotter drone is going ahead and reporting any possible problems (extra security guards, paracritters on the grounds, etc)
- hacking open the maintenance bay doors so that they can drive inside and park out of site
- editing the maintenance bay camera feed so that they were never there
- hacking open the door from the maintenance bay to the offices

and on, and on, and on.

IME people pick "decker/hacker" to do this sort of stuff, not because they wanted to be a killstick.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (eidolon)
The team is hired to drive to a remote location on the lava flats. They've been hired to break into a small corp chemical facility there and sabotage operations.
- trick the gate into thinking they're a legitimate delivery vehicle
- edit the gate camera's feed to keep them from showing up as they enter
- all the while his spotter drone is going ahead and reporting any possible problems (extra security guards, paracritters on the grounds, etc)
- hacking open the maintenance bay doors so that they can drive inside and park out of site
- editing the maintenance bay camera feed so that they were never there
- hacking open the door from the maintenance bay to the offices

and on, and on, and on.

Which brings us back to the core dilemma. How would you be able to do any of that stuff if the text about locking the internets out held?

The '29 Crash requires us to believe that the virus was able to hop onto segregated networks. But all the stuff you want Hackers to be able to do also equires us to believe that hackers can hack segregated networks. Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.

If we don't take a step back and allow people to hack devices that aren't volunteering themselves to be hacked then there's really no reason to believe that hackers would be able to do this basic stuff that you want them to do. Hackers should be able to hack into facilities not just out of them.

And as long as "Nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening" is a 100% effective defense, that's really not realistically possible.

-Frank
James McMurray
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Which brings us back to the core dilemma. How would you be able to do any of that stuff if the text about locking the internets out held?

If we don't take a step back and allow people to hack devices that aren't volunteering themselves to be hacked then there's really no reason to believe that hackers would be able to do this basic stuff that you want them to do. Hackers should be able to hack into facilities not just out of them.

You go on the run instead of trying to do it from your living room. Isn't that one of the primary goals of SR4: make the hacker leave the house and the rigger leave the van?
James McMurray
QUOTE (Hartbaine)
Let it go already. It was interesting to read at first and now it’s just degenerated to the point of ‘Who gives a shit?’

For someone calling for the death of a thread, you seem to be spending a lot of time bumping it to the top. smile.gif
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (eidolon)
And to bring the "level" down a bit, in addition to the high-end "hack the super computer and wipe out corporate CEO Bob's existence" (which I'm coming to feel is a holdover from the "feel" of previous editions), remember that hackers are now supposed to be going on the run just like any other team member.

...this is why Vi has B & E, other Technical, and even some Covert Op Skills as well. She also has upgraded surveillance drones which she uses in command mode to watch the team's back & perform basic recon.
Aaron
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Which brings us back to the core dilemma. How would you be able to do any of that stuff if the text about locking the internets out held?

Part of the difference is cultural. Don't discount the fact that the game is set sixty years into the future. I mean, sixty years ago one's grandfather might look at the privacy issues of today and say, "There's no reason to keep records in these places where they can be easily transferred. Just use paper and locked filing cabinets like everybody else!" I also imagine that people of the 2070s expect to be able to use their commlinks for stuff, like opening the gates of their workplace, and that takes wireless. It's similar to the fact that you can use your credit card at McHugh's: people expect to be able to do so.

On the other hand, if you're saying that the rules are screwy because some devices don't have wireless, I'll share the story of my very first non-demo SR4 game, wherein my hacker had to actually use his datajack because the systems in the target building were wired (well, cabled). Plugged right into a security camera, no problem, with the rest of the team providing cover.

If neither of those addressed the point, then I have no idea what you were getting at.
deek
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Which brings us back to the core dilemma. How would you be able to do any of that stuff if the text about locking the internets out held?

The '29 Crash requires us to believe that the virus was able to hop onto segregated networks. But all the stuff you want Hackers to be able to do also equires us to believe that hackers can hack segregated networks. Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.

If we don't take a step back and allow people to hack devices that aren't volunteering themselves to be hacked then there's really no reason to believe that hackers would be able to do this basic stuff that you want them to do. Hackers should be able to hack into facilities not just out of them.

And as long as "Nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening" is a 100% effective defense, that's really not realistically possible.

-Frank

I just think there is a difference between hacking a segregated network vs. hi-jacking someone's trodenet, subscribing it to a VR device and sending black IC to tenderize the brain...

I just feel that the rules guide us to hack the comm and actually engage in cybercombat...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (deek)
I just think there is a difference between hacking a segregated network vs. hi-jacking someone's trodenet, subscribing it to a VR device and sending black IC to tenderize the brain...

I just feel that the rules guide us to hack the comm and actually engage in cybercombat...

Well, someone's brain actually is just a segregated network.

The difficulty at the heart of this discussion is that the rules that allow people to keep their brain from being directly attacked by having a commlink that has biofeedback filter also allow people to simply not get hacked at all by choosing not to be.

In short, the game allows protections where you can say that your datajack only gets signals from your commlink, and then people have to hack through the commlink to get to your brain. But the same procedure also allows you to set up your security system so that it only accepts signals from authorized devices and then you can't hack it at all.

That's problematic. What should happen instead is that neworks of this kind should count as a contiguous device for purposes of hacking. That is, the commlink programs defend the brain they are attached to because they are attached, not because signals specifically are going through the commlink to get to the brain. And then we can take the whole concept of perfect limitations on access and throw them out of the universe where they belong.

People being able to bypass commlinks and go straight for the brain is bad, but people being able to arbitrarily decide who can interact with them (and thus hack them) is even worse. But with a little re-imagining, neither problem has to actually exist in the game.

-Frank
James McMurray
"My computer doesn't have an outside connection, so you can't hack it" is not a problem, it's common sense. If fluff disagrees, trash the fluff.
eidolon
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Which brings us back to the core dilemma. How would you be able to do any of that stuff if the text about locking the internets out held?

The '29 Crash requires us to believe that the virus was able to hop onto segregated networks. But all the stuff you want Hackers to be able to do also equires us to believe that hackers can hack segregated networks. Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.

If we don't take a step back and allow people to hack devices that aren't volunteering themselves to be hacked then there's really no reason to believe that hackers would be able to do this basic stuff that you want them to do. Hackers should be able to hack into facilities not just out of them.

And as long as "Nyah nyah nyah, I'm not listening" is a 100% effective defense, that's really not realistically possible.

-Frank

<vincent>What the hell are you on about?</vincent>

All of the devices I mentioned the hacker interacting with are on. They are on to communicate with the rest of the security system. They aren't turned off, because if they were turned off, they wouldn't be able to communicate with the rest of the security system, and would thus be worthless/pointless. (In fact, turning a device off may also be a viable strategy, depending.)

The hacker finds the wireless signal that the gate is using to communicate back to the system, compromises it, and tells the gate to open (maybe even telling the system that the gate is still closed).

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.


The character is a hacker. He creates the reason that the system is listening to an "outside" command. That's the entire point of the character type/skill set.

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
If we don't take a step back and allow people to hack devices that aren't volunteering themselves to be hacked then there's really no reason to believe that hackers would be able to do this basic stuff that you want them to do.


You're drawing wild, sweeping parallels here that strike me as a bit desperate. So because I, as a regular corpslave average dude, can pull my commlink's jack our of my datajack and put the commlink on the charger before I go to sleep at night, then a hacker can't spoof a security camera feed at a chemical plant? That's just ridiculous.

Bottom line: there has to be a reason that the hacker is a viable character type. The game provides that reason in a bunch of devices having some sort of wireless accessibility that you can take advantage of to the effect of being a viable member of a shadowrunning team.

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
People being able to bypass commlinks and go straight for the brain is bad, but people being able to arbitrarily decide who can interact with them (and thus hack them) is even worse. But with a little re-imagining, neither problem has to actually exist in the game.


And again, I think you're just inventing problems.
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The difficulty at the heart of this discussion is that the rules that allow people to keep their brain from being directly attacked by having a commlink that has biofeedback filter also allow people to simply not get hacked at all by choosing not to be.

you've repeatedly ignored the counterargument to that, which is that by not using a commlink with DNI (through either trodes or a datajack), a user is giving up a lot of convenience and ease-of-use, and taking on a boatload of extra costs. thirty years ago, it'd have been unthinkable to give out your social security number to anyone. nowadays, most people give out their SSN to anybody with an official-looking letterhead--and then wonder why ID theft is so prevalent. the only people in 2070 who are going to not DNI with their commlink are going to be wannabe luddites, fringe weirdos who wear tinfoil hats.

and by making the world easier to hack--without even bringing deathrays into the discussion--you don't fix anything. you actually force the setting to make even less sense. we already have to do a hell of a lot of handwaving to justify such complex, arcane practices as having a bank account in the face of SR's laughably weak encryption. and now you want to make stuff even easier?
Tarantula
QUOTE (deek)
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 17 2007, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 17 2007, 10:21 AM)
The trodes, datajack, whatever connected to the person's brain must be in direct communication with the sim module.  That is to say, no devices relaying the signal in between, both must be within the range of the lesser signal rating.  Most trodes have a signal of 0, so that affords a great deal of protection from someone else's modified simlink.  You can get trodes with a higher signal, and that would make you more vulnerable.  You can use skinlink or a wired connection between the two to further limit any sort of intercept between the sim module and trodes.

This is the biggest realization for why it won't work. The sim module is outside the trodes range. In order to subscribe their trodes to your HOT modified sim module, you have to get that sim module inside the trodes signal range. Which is 0. You might as well just take a needle of cyanide to them at that point.

The point that FTM was making though, was why can't trodes have a greater signal strength. And that is the first assumption he makes in order for any of this to work at range...that a trode could get a better signal...

If you take that away, then the hypothetical discussion boils down to exactly that...having to get within 3m of your target.

They can, but by default, its 0. Which means if you want to momhammer joe average, you need to get inside of 0m. If its Mr. decksalot with a signal 6 on his trodes, momhammer way, but he probably has some way of defending himself.

QUOTE (kzt)
From the point of view of how radios work that doesn't make any sense. The range is based on using unmodified gear, with the micro antennas that come standard. If you use a big enough antenna on the guy trying to read the trods signal and have line of sight you can receive signals from everything, be it near or far. If you amplify (or directionalize) your outbound signals enough they can have a nice clear connection to you despite being "out of range". That's how the pringles antenna trick works and how you can read a passive RFID chip that has a "range of 2 millimeters" at 10 meters.

Yes, the range that is standard is 3 meters. The book says you can't have connection without both being within each others signal range. You can have a range of 1293812903831 and his is still 3 meters. Thusly, unless you are inside of 3 meters, you can't connect and momhammer.

RL doesn't always work in shadowrun, especially when the rules trump it.
darthmord
I think the point he was raising Tarantula was this...

Does Momhammer require return information from the transmission going out?

In other words, does the Momhammer need feedback from the signal or is a one-way signal good enough?

Based on 2007 tech, one way is sufficient to accomplish much of this. To cook me in my apartment, all you'd have to do is fire a microwave beam of sufficient power at it. You don't need feedback for me to cook. I'll do that just by being there.

So why again would a comlink / deck require any sort of feedback in order to cook the target's mind?

That said, I would expect some sort of feedback to be useful in fine-tuning how well / fast / effectively you cook the target. This means I would assess a blind fire penalty without some sort of feedback loop to better control the output.
kzt
QUOTE (darthmord)
I think the point he was raising Tarantula was this...

Does Momhammer require return information from the transmission going out?

In other words, does the Momhammer need feedback from the signal or is a one-way signal good enough?

No, actually it's that all RF systems can be detected at FAR more than their rated range. It's why it's possible to reconstruct what someone is displaying on their LCD monitor from 25 meters, and several solid walls, away. (It's a LOT longer for CRTs). That particular application is called Van Eck Phreaking, but the basic idea is pervasive in how electronics and RF works.

It's also why radar detectors work, in that the radar signal is detectable at a lot longer range than the radar gun can use to actually measure your speed.

SR is really very limited in what it allows you to do vs the real world. If you limit what you can do to just what the actual rules say you can't do a lot of obvious things. Of course if the people writing the hacking rules would stop licking the virtual feet of TRON there is a lot of really cool stuff that could be done that would add to the game.

You are certainly going to be able to receive the signal with an appropriate rig. If you need to. If you can just broadcast it, then you don't need to worry. I'd expect that it would require two way link and be only one target at a time if the target doesn't have a hot-sim module connected.
WearzManySkins
As one who has worked around RF devices for years, ie Radars.

Common microwave ovens if you are able to bypass the "safeties", then open of the RF shielding, then someone standing nearby can be injured by the leaking RF energies. but range is limited.

RF damage to a human is typically "Felt" in the eyes and in the testicles, first. For a RF Beam to injure someone at a distance will require Kilowatts of power.

One of my radars puts out 2 kilowatts in a beam, its effective injury range is less than 200 meters. Yes if one were to focus that beam on you for some time you would be injured, but you would feel the effects long before any major damage was done.

Radars in the Megawatt range do have a injury range in the several hundred yards, look at the DEW line Radars using the huge Phased Arrays, in front of those, not even grass grows.

Now if Death Hacker is using a Megawatt or Kilowatt transmitter, well lets say he will never have to worry about getting a female pregnant in the near future, and he should invest in a good set of cybereyes due the RF, his vision will be quickly rendered blind.

The RF field in a MRI is very intense/stronger in comparison to cellular phones, but patients do not come out brain fried.

Frank go to Med School if you are lucky you will learn about the uses of RF/EMF in medicine. Leave the technical aspects to those that have it.

As for the rest of this thread, keep beating the horselich, it is still standing.biggrin.gif

WMS
hyzmarca
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
People being able to bypass commlinks and go straight for the brain is bad, but people being able to arbitrarily decide who can interact with them (and thus hack them) is even worse. But with a little re-imagining, neither problem has to actually exist in the game.

-Frank

Network segregation is the entire reason for paydata runs. It is why, instead of having their 60-billion-nuyen ubberhacker teams get top secret files from their rivals, megacorps hire well-armed street thugs.
Tarantula
I've been reading the cybercombat section a lot due to this thread, and I've happened across this. SR4, 230, "Icons assault each other in cybercombat by spending an
Attack Complex Action to target another icon with a hostile program,
such as Attack, Black Hammer, or Blackout.
To attack another icon, make an Opposed Test. Hackers attack
using Cybercombat skill + attack program rating. Agents,
IC, and sprites attack using their rating + attack program rating.
The defending icon rolls Response + Firewall."

You can only attack a matrix icon. Going back to page 211, we have definitions for a persona and its icon. SR4, 211, "Your persona’s Firewall, Response, Signal, and System attributes are equal to the device and OS you are using to access the Matrix. Attacks made against your persona affect the device/OS, though Black IC programs affect the actual user directly."

This means, that unless you're in an actual node that the persona is in (I.E. their commlink, not their trodes) you can't blackhammer them. If you do blackhammer them, they get their commlinks firewall (since the commlink is what creates their persona) as well as any biofeedback filter programs loaded. You can't bypass this at all, without hacking through their commlink to resubscribe the trodes to a different commlink.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (mfb)
...by not using a commlink with DNI (through either trodes or a datajack), a user is giving up a lot of convenience and ease-of-use, and taking on a boatload of extra costs.

...actually if you look at the description again on pp. 317-318 a commlink comes equipped with a micro-trid/holo projector/touch screen. so even a user like the "Short One" can point at the pretty holographic icons to make transactions or call a friend with minimal difficulty. Yeah it's not at the speed of thought (which in her case can be slower than performing a physical action wobble.gif), but is still by no means crippling. The other stuff, like glasses AR glove, etc are a minimal cost. 100 rounds of Ammo costs more.

QUOTE (mfb)
nowadays, most people give out their SSN to anybody with an official-looking letterhead--and then wonder why ID theft is so prevalent.

...I don't, particularly since I went through great pains to get a new one after my former college (which used SSNs as Student ID numbers) gave it out to some unscrupulous folks who used it to obtain private information they were not supposed to have access to.

QUOTE (mfb)
The only people in 2070 who are going to not DNI with their commlink are going to be wannabe luddites, fringe weirdos who wear tinfoil hats.

...and dain bramaged characters like my namesake.
mfb
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
..actually if you look at the description again on pp. 317-318 a commlink comes equipped with a micro-trid/holo projector/touch screen. so even a user like the "Short One" can point at the pretty holographic icons to make transactions or call a friend with minimal difficulty. Yeah it's not at the speed of thought (which in her case can be slower than performing a physical action wobble.gif), but is still by no means crippling. The other stuff, like glasses AR glove, etc are a minimal cost. 100 rounds of Ammo costs more

that's for basic cellphone activities--which, if you're a quasi-luddite or a frequenter of Le Tinfoile Haberdashery, is all you're probably looking for anyway. someone added up the costs to approximate the full functionality of a DNI commlink a few pages back; as i recall, it ended up being something like 5-10 times more expensive. and it's slow.

QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...I don't, particularly since I went through great pains to get a new one after my former college (which used SSNs as Student ID numbers) gave it out to some unscrupulous folks who used it to obtain private information they were not supposed to have access to.

indeed. the fact that everybody does it doesn't mean it's actually safe (or even a good idea). lucky people never have to be taught that lesson; smart people only have to be taught once.
Tarantula
Actually, they also by default come with "voice-access controls". I'm pretty sure voice command works pretty damn well and quickly, sure, its still slower, but it works just as good.
deek
QUOTE (Tarantula)
This means, that unless you're in an actual node that the persona is in (I.E. their commlink, not their trodes) you can't blackhammer them. If you do blackhammer them, they get their commlinks firewall (since the commlink is what creates their persona) as well as any biofeedback filter programs loaded. You can't bypass this at all, without hacking through their commlink to resubscribe the trodes to a different commlink.

That's a really good point...you can't use a program on a person directly...you can only use it on their persona...that limits quite a bit, if you think about it.
kzt
QUOTE (deek)
that limits quite a bit, if you think about it.

Yeah, you can just send them dreamchips of them being on fire and personafixes of them wanting to kill a whole bunch of people.
mfb
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Sep 18 2007, 04:09 PM)
Actually, they also by default come with "voice-access controls".  I'm pretty sure voice command works pretty damn well and quickly, sure, its still slower, but it works just as good.

yes, for basic cellphone functionality, and if you don't mind looking like a chump. but you'll be playing your online games without sense of touch or smell, you won't be able to virtually sample menu items at restaurants, your loving wife won't be able to kiss you on the cheek (or give you a blowjob) over the intrawebs, and so on. the ability to DNI your commlink is a huge part of the life of the average person in 2070.

using your commlink in voice command mode, or with VR gear, is like riding your bike everywhere. yes, if you stick to bike paths and whatnot, it's safer than driving your car on the highway--but it's so much slower, and you don't have any air conditioning (or a roof for when it rains), you have to shell out extra money if you want to listen to the radio, and for god's sake, you're a living ad for 40 Year-Old Virgin.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (mfb)
using your commlink in voice command mode, or with VR gear, is like riding your bike everywhere. yes, if you stick to bike paths and whatnot, it's safer than driving your car on the highway--but it's so much slower, and you don't have any air conditioning (or a roof for when it rains), you have to shell out extra money if you want to listen to the radio, and for god's sake, you're a living ad for 40 Year-Old Virgin.

...now now, that is how I get to work everyday, do my weekly grocery run, and other errands. Don't need to worry about feeding the meter every couple hours, or shelling out for car park fees, don't have to worry about the high price of petrol, or insurance premiums. I get to work/home in about half the time it takes riding the bus (saving about 80$ per month), I feel a better physically, and I don't sit in traffic jams stressing out (Portland TT...er...OR has one of the best networks of bike lanes/paths in the country).

Furthermore, with significantly reduced up-keep costs it leaves me with more resources to buy more SR books/PDFs, upgrade my computer and occasionally take a real vacation. When something does break, I can fix it myself instead of have to take it into the shop & shell out 100s, if not 1,000s in repair fees (vehicles today should have a sticker on the bonnet that reads "No User Serviceable Parts")

And rain? This is Portland, you get used to it. That is what a good hat, Goretex™, & Scotchgaurd™ are for. spin.gif spin.gif
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (eidolon)
All of the devices I mentioned the hacker interacting with are on. They are on to communicate with the rest of the security system. They aren't turned off, because if they were turned off, they wouldn't be able to communicate with the rest of the security system, and would thus be worthless/pointless. (In fact, turning a device off may also be a viable strategy, depending.)

The hacker finds the wireless signal that the gate is using to communicate back to the system, compromises it, and tells the gate to open (maybe even telling the system that the gate is still closed).

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.


The character is a hacker. He creates the reason that the system is listening to an "outside" command. That's the entire point of the character type/skill set.

But no-one in the entire world ever unless they are MORONS is going to set their security system up like that. Because it does mean the hacker can drive right up and piss in your cheerios.

Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!

James McMurray
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...now now, that is how I get to work everyday, do my weekly grocery run, and other errands. Don't need to worry about feeding the meter every couple hours, or shelling out for car park fees, don't have to worry about the high price of petrol, or insurance premiums. I get to work/home in about half the time it takes riding the bus (saving about 80$ per month), I feel a better physically, and I don't sit in traffic jams stressing out (Portland TT...er...OR has one of the best networks of bike lanes/paths in the country).

Furthermore, with significantly reduced up-keep costs it leaves me with more resources to buy more SR books/PDFs, upgrade my computer and occasionally take a real vacation. When something does break, I can fix it myself instead of have to take it into the shop & shell out 100s, if not 1,000s in repair fees (vehicles today should have a sticker on the bonnet that reads "No User Serviceable Parts")

And rain? This is Portland, you get used to it. That is what a good hat, Goretex™, & Scotchgaurd™ are for. spin.gif spin.gif

Sounds great, until the go-gang decides to shoot in your direction. biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 18 2007, 08:15 PM)
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 18 2007, 11:25 AM)
All of the devices I mentioned the hacker interacting with are on.  They are on to communicate with the rest of the security system.  They aren't turned off, because if they were turned off, they wouldn't be able to communicate with the rest of the security system, and would thus be worthless/pointless.  (In fact, turning a device off may also be a viable strategy, depending.)

The hacker finds the wireless signal that the gate is using to communicate back to the system, compromises it, and tells the gate to open (maybe even telling the system that the gate is still closed).

QUOTE (Frank Trollman)
Because well, there's no reason for a security system to be accepting matrix commands from the outside.


The character is a hacker. He creates the reason that the system is listening to an "outside" command. That's the entire point of the character type/skill set.

But no-one in the entire world ever unless they are MORONS is going to set their security system up like that. Because it does mean the hacker can drive right up and piss in your cheerios.

Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!

You can glue a wireless security camera to any surface. With a wired camera, you must pay people to run wires and possibly punch holes in things. The end result is more camera and superior coverage for less cost.
mfb
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...now now, that is how I get to work everyday, do my weekly grocery run, and other errands. Don't need to worry about feeding the meter every couple hours, or shelling out for car park fees, don't have to worry about the high price of petrol, or insurance premiums. I get to work/home in about half the time it takes riding the bus (saving about 80$ per month), I feel a better physically, and I don't sit in traffic jams stressing out (Portland TT...er...OR has one of the best networks of bike lanes/paths in the country).

there are always exceptions. for instance, people who've been burnt by black or psychotropic attacks are likely to shell out and get the full non-DNI AR/VR rig, or even go without AR/VR at all. but exceptions--even common exception, common enough to have gear for them listed in the main book--are still exceptions, y'know?
eidolon
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
But no-one in the entire world ever unless they are MORONS is going to set their security system up like that. Because it does mean the hacker can drive right up and piss in your cheerios.

Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!


Hey, don't ask me. Read the stuff in the books that throws hints and tidbits about how just about anything and everything that's mechanical or electronic has wireless capability. I didn't write it, but it's there, and it's the game's new mentality, and it's part of the strategy to make hackers part of the party and a valid character type instead of having a magical NPC take care of it, which, while it was not my group's preferred method, apparently was incredibly common.

And again, you're joining in on ignoring the very basis for the idea of "hacking". They don't set that stuff up and leave it open. They set it up and "lock it down with their expensive Renraku firewall software, because the ads said that there was no way a hacker was getting into our network!" And that's what a hacker's job is. To break down walls and open doors. To get where he isn't supposed to be. Wireless is convenient. Wireless is easy. And no, their super duper PAYDATA probably isn't on a wireless node that you could hack from the gate. It's in that "room with the fancy paint that cost a crap-ton to have put on by those guys from that subsidiary of NeoNET, but hey, it came with a guarantee!"

What's the point of that chemical plant being there? So the players have an obstacle, a challenge to overcome. Because it's a game. Why does the outside security system have active wireless? Because that gives my friend playing the hacker something Badass™ and Fun® to do before the Sam gets to shoot people, the Mage gets to take on an elemental, and the Adept gets to KungFu the hell out of a guy.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 18 2007, 08:31 PM)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
But no-one in the entire world ever unless they are MORONS is going to set their security system up like that. Because it does mean the hacker can drive right up and piss in your cheerios.

Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!


Hey, don't ask me. Read the stuff in the books that throws hints and tidbits about how just about anything and everything that's mechanical or electronic has wireless capability. I didn't write it, but it's there, and it's the game's new mentality, and it's part of the strategy to make hackers part of the party and a valid character type instead of having a magical NPC take care of it, which, while it was not my group's preferred method, apparently was incredibly common.

And again, you're joining in on ignoring the very basis for the idea of "hacking". They don't set that stuff up and leave it open. They set it up and "lock it down with their expensive Renraku firewall software, because the ads said that there was no way a hacker was getting into our network!" And that's what a hacker's job is. To break down walls and open doors. To get where he isn't supposed to be. Wireless is convenient. Wireless is easy. And no, their super duper PAYDATA probably isn't on a wireless node that you could hack from the gate. It's in that "room with the fancy paint that cost a crap-ton to have put on by those guys from that subsidiary of NeoNET, but hey, it came with a guarantee!"

What's the point of that chemical plant being there? So the players have an obstacle, a challenge to overcome. Because it's a game. Why does the outside security system have active wireless? Because that gives my friend playing the hacker something Badass™ and Fun® to do before the Sam gets to shoot people, the Mage gets to take on an elemental, and the Adept gets to KungFu the hell out of a guy.


Yeah, but this is rapidly getting back into segregated networks land.

See, today I can believe the cyberguard firewall someone is selling me (which costs a not inconsiderable amount of money) will actually live up to claims, block traffic, provides stateful packet inspection so I can stop people sending stuff out I don't want too, blahblah, but despite the fact that thing could block any leakage of material, I don't want to try it and find out I'm wrong.

Instead I'd rather just leave a 2 foot air gap and have total electronic security. (Except for USB sticks... and people printing stuff out.. but lets not think about those.)

I agree, the fluff says you can do that. But the fluff also says you can haxor segregated neworks in 2029. It is all kinda weird. But the fact remains you are completely stupid to leave your CCTV exposed because they know a hacker can haxor in. Hell there probably ARE hackers on the electronic security team.

Secondly (the other problem), none of that stuff actually required the hacker to ever actually show up. He could totally do that from a drone.

Edit: Wireless is only convenient when it doesn't let invading people with guns infiltrate your plant is what I'm basically getting at wink.gif It doesn;t stack up from a veracity perspective.

Edit2: I'm not even particularly sure what a good resolution is. I'm randomly attacking ideas to build my idea of a world with some internal consistency.
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca)

You can glue a wireless security camera to any surface. With a wired camera, you must pay people to run wires and possibly punch holes in things. The end result is more camera and superior coverage for less cost.

So, how long can they run on batteries? If you have to run a power connection you can run a data line.
eidolon
(this is in response to Cthulhudreams, mainly)

That's cool. It's not like there's one way to play. I use threads like this for a similar purpose. On one hand, I'm forced to hit the books if I want to remotely understand what is being discussed. This really helps me out, because for some reason I retain more of it if I feel like I'm "using" the knowledge. On the other, like you said, it helps me build my world.

Fact is, I don't care how "realistic" my Shadowrun computing and networks and security systems are. Sure, I want the to "make sense" to a point, but that point is different for everyone running the game. More important to me is that the guy or gal that spent all of their points being a cool hacker has fun, and without having to know about every loophole and every nitpick in both the system and my house rules. (I'll have some after a while, I'm sure, but I don't think the Matrix needs redoing for my games.)

And believe it or not, that's a weird feeling for me. It's markedly different than the way I ran SR3 for my last steady group. That was a rules lawyering realism competition. But the more I read of the new stuff and of other recent games that I have picket up, the more I realize that my taste in "fun" has changed somewhat.

I'll stop rambling. Hell, it's mostly OT for this thread anyway. biggrin.gif

Back on topic, remember that the crash of 2029, and likewise Crash 2.0 weren't devastating because they wiped out corporate databases that were housed in machines with no connection to anything else.

They took out the links. The infrastructure. Things shut down not because some random lab in Arizona had it's research corrupted in its computers that weren't hooked to the internet, but because online commerce was impeded. Communication was dead. Systems that relied on internet, or later, Matrix links stopped working. That's where the devastation came from.

And the data havens? The shadow network? They were connected to the Matrix. Recall that some of them took themselves offline and disconnected to avoid the effects of Crash 2.0. Others weren't so prudent (or were more gutsy, or whatever you want to say).

So to me, people repeatedly jumping back to "OMG you could hack teh internetz in 2029" doesn't remotely affect my views and opinions on the Matrix as of 2070.

[ Spoiler ]


edit:
QUOTE (kzt)
So, how long can they run on batteries?  If you have to run a power connection you can run a data line.


High efficiency photo-voltaic cells paired up with 2070's version of good li-on batteries. biggrin.gif
kzt
QUOTE (eidolon)

[ Spoiler ]


That's about par for the course with FASA/Fanpro. "But it's KEWL!!!"
eidolon
True. It wouldn't really take all that much to satisfy me, though. Hell, a free PDF explaining the highest-level of events over a couple of pages would do me just fine. This one is particularly glaring to me, though.

It won't keep me from having fun with SR or anything, but it'd be nice to see.
Seven-7
Ok, are we all taking into account tthat Hackers on Shadowrun level professionalism and power are probably very fucking rare? Fastjack, ect.

If you don't know, or are betting good good odds that you'll never really be hacked by someone who knows what they're doing, why bother with incredible security?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Sep 18 2007, 07:33 PM)
...now now, that is how I get to work everyday, do my weekly grocery run, and other errands. Don't need to worry about feeding the meter every couple hours, or shelling out for car park fees, don't have to worry about the high price of petrol, or insurance premiums. I get to work/home in about half the time it takes riding the bus (saving about 80$ per month), I feel a better physically, and I don't sit in traffic jams stressing out (Portland TT...er...OR has one of the best networks of bike lanes/paths in the country).

Furthermore, with significantly reduced up-keep costs it leaves me with more resources to buy more SR books/PDFs, upgrade my computer and occasionally take a real vacation.  When something does break, I can fix it myself instead of have to take it into the shop & shell out 100s, if not 1,000s in repair fees (vehicles today should have a sticker on the bonnet that reads "No User Serviceable Parts")

And rain?  This is Portland, you get used to it.  That is what a good hat, Goretex™, & Scotchgaurd™ are for.    spin.gif  spin.gif

Sounds great, until the go-gang decides to shoot in your direction. biggrin.gif

...yeah, riding an old '82 Stumpjumper is flashing colours and serious bling. grinbig.gif

More likely they'll go after the "hip hop Honda" with the million watt subwoofer, fancy freewheeling rims (you know, those ones that keep spinning when the vehicle is stopped), and oversized muffler that makes the car sound like it was just fueled with a blend of beer and baked beans.

Though there was a case a year or so ago where some bored teenagers from one of the better neighbourhoods were riding around shooting paintball guns at anyone and anything they passed by. Now these dumbasses scare me more because they're just plain stupid and don't realise the danger they pose. Compared to these numbskulls, the "Short One" comes off looking like Steven Hawking. grinbig.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 18 2007, 07:15 PM)
Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!

Fibre optic isn't inherently 'untappable'. You just need to use something a little more sophisticated than a rusty box-cutter and alligator clips.

Playing defense is tough. If you want to try stay 'secure' it is about paying through the nose for the bleeding edge security items to try stay out ahead. That's expensive. Which is why wireless exists, that's why wireless exists and is used now. It is less secure, no doubt about that. Same thing with copper wire vs. fibre for the individual hardlines. But it is overall a very differenet point on the price/flexibility-convenience curve to deploy and maintain.

P.S. "Fibre optic" paint? Nice one. rotfl.gif
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 19 2007, 04:30 AM)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 18 2007, 07:15 PM)
Instead, there is going to be a security room in the complex with the security computers, everything runs back to that with fibre optic connections, the room is locked down in fibre optic paint and you totally won't be able to hack into *anything* on that list. Why would the security camera even have wireless?!

Fibre optic isn't inherently 'untappable'. You just need to use something a little more sophisticated than a rusty box-cutter and alligator clips.

Playing defense is tough. If you want to try stay 'secure' it is about paying through the nose for the bleeding edge security items to try stay out ahead. That's expensive. Which is why wireless exists, that's why wireless exists and is used now. It is less secure, no doubt about that. Same thing with copper wire vs. fibre for the individual hardlines. But it is overall a very differenet point on the price/flexibility-convenience curve to deploy and maintain.

P.S. "Fibre optic" paint? Nice one. rotfl.gif

Damn fingers/mind disconnect frown.gif

But on a more serious note, yeah I know. But any cable run for a 'secure' system is obviously going to be in a conduit, and you might notice when someone whips out a saw to cut into the conduit then rips out the cable then taps it. Infact at that point you may as well just shot the camera with a gun biggrin.gif

And as for wireless and the uses thereof. I kinda agree, but also at the same time I don't. Wireless just isn't used for secure applications - If you wander around to the NSA, or DSD they won't be using it on the secure network - and where it IS used, you have the benefits of strong authentication and encryption that just doesn't exist in SRverse.

Its just a consistency issue, but with the rise of organized crime behind hacking (who can afford those rating 4-6 haxor tools) that is happening even today, if it was that easy to get in (as it is in shadowrun verse) peoples approach to ICT security would be very different.

As far as I can see a rating 6 'exploit' program would cost me 3825 dollars US, which is pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things. (based on average weekly salary in australia == middle lifestyle, saving/spending on things not part of lifestyle costs 10-20% of income, middle class lifestyle). The whole kit and caboodle would be 58k. I could totally buy a sports car for that I do admit, but its gear worth happening. Organized crime can afford that. But whats more, average joe can afford that, and he can sure as hell afford the rating 3 version (Average joe student probably can) So hacking tools are running around freely and cheaply, and computer knowledge to use them is probably equally all over the place.

A risk is a Threat, opportunity and impact. In SRverse there are lots of threats with lots of opportunity, and the impacts are probably much the same as today. It strikes me as bizarre that people can accept that risk.

If I was the sysop in SR verse everything would be cabled, the security system would completely separate from the user system, and everything important would be on another (separate) secure system. Thats if I had anything important to protect anyway.

Now all that said, fun game play says that it's not, and it should be like eidolon has it - but I also want a logical workable model that everyone understands so outcomes are predictable etc.

So how do I get to cabling everything?

Edit: Another point is that a physically and separately secure system with no wireless and no external jackpoints except in controlled zones can have its security provided by your existing physical security and you can save money because you dont ahve to buy any IC or firewalls smile.gif
blakkie
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 19 2007, 04:28 AM)
If I was the sysop in SR verse everything would be cabled, the security system would completely separate from the user system, and I'd want a really good reason why there was a matrix connection. If there was, anything important would be on a separate system from the one connected to the matrix. Thats if I had anything important to protect anyway.

...and in said SR verse when you blew past your budget your boss would give a ganger your home address and 500 nuyen.gif to blow your head off just to save a few hundred over the standard employee severance package. cyber.gif

As for pulling out a saw and all that crap. Come on, SR has got medkits that automate patching up boo-boos ranging from gunshots to 2-story falls to 3rd degree burns. A even remotely similar quality tap kit is going to smoothly punch a probe through the conduit with a viewer to help you pick off the cable inside. Of course the book doesn't describe all that detail because they only had 350 pages to work with. Nor do you worry about rolling for that individually, it is all encapsualed in the hardware hacking test. Same with listing the tap kit item on your character sheet or taking it into account when rolling. It is in that grab bag of Toolkit, Electronics and the bonus/penalty for that.

Want to take the the time to describe it in your game? What hitting the TN looks like or how/why missing the TN happened? Rock on. It is imagination time....or you just rip and adapt some imagery like the backseat belly bughunt from the Matrix movie. eek.gif

EDIT:
QUOTE
Edit: Another point is that a physically and separately secure system with no wireless and no external jackpoints except in controlled zones can have its security provided by your existing physical security and you can save money because you dont ahve to buy any IC or firewalls 

If a bit flips by itself and can't talk to anyone does it actually matter? That's the thing about computers, they are nothing without I/O. It is like building a room without doors or windows. Really secure and pretty much pointless.
blakkie
QUOTE
Now all that said, fun game play says that it's not, and it should be like eidolon has it - but I also want a logical workable model that everyone understands so outcomes are predictable etc.

Just play it as is. Lots of wireless, a bit of hardwired in places like Fort Lewis. Seriously.

Yeah there are going to be the odd system that is effectively issolated because the Matrix security is just so damn good that physically getting behind that firewall is easier/safer. But that's an IC issue, not a cabling issue. And that makes it super expensive so it'll be relatively rare. The equivalent to 15cm thick solid metal doors with eye, finger, voice, DNA, and live interviewer protection to get in.

How many places are going to have that?

You are falling into the fanwank trap of visualizing this intricate inpenerable fortress everywhere. The real world just doesn't work that way because people are to one degree or another imperfect. Security is never about making something impenerable, it is about deterent. Getting lucky and catching someone is gravy but the core job of security is mental barriers. Convincing people not to risk trying. That is why these exist.

Have you read the book 1984? If not do. If yes think about the border fence. Think about how that fence is built into YOUR mind, how you think about how security works IRL right now and is influencing how you think security would work in SR.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (blakkie @ Sep 19 2007, 06:09 AM)
QUOTE
Now all that said, fun game play says that it's not, and it should be like eidolon has it - but I also want a logical workable model that everyone understands so outcomes are predictable etc.

Just play it as is. Lots of wireless, a bit of hardwired in places like Fort Lewis. Seriously.

Yeah there are going to be the odd system that is effectively issolated because the Matrix security is just so damn good that physically getting behind that firewall is easier/safer. But that's an IC issue, not a cabling issue. And that makes it super expensive so it'll be relatively rare. The equivalent to 15cm thick solid metal doors with eye, finger, voice, DNA, and live interviewer protection to get in.

How many places are going to have that?

You are falling into the fanwank trap of visualizing this intricate inpenerable fortress everywhere. The real world just doesn't work that way because people are to one degree or another imperfect. Security is never about making something impenerable, it is about deterent. Getting lucky and catching someone is gravy but the core job of security is mental barriers. Convincing people not to risk trying. That is why these exist.

Have you read the book 1984? If not do. If yes think about the border fence. Think about how that fence is built into YOUR mind, how you think about how security works IRL right now and is influencing how you think security would work in SR.


Of course I have read 1984, what do you think I am, some sort of barbarian? biggrin.gif

*grins*

Yeah, I am also aware of the 'make it scary' brand of security - you just had to watch the APEC 2007 in sydney, and the unabashed hype coming out of the Federal Police

"We are freeing up 500 cells to arrest rioters" when they actually arrested like.. 10.

"Extra police on duty to supress violent protests and we will use force!!!" If you show up at a violent demonstration, WE WILL BEAT YOU.

It's brilliant.

I'm aware that the average system of security is.. iffy, and most systems have a whole raft of flaws. For example an otherwise secure system, but the notebooks issued to VIPs don't support WPA encryption and you know where that is going.

But the reality is the basics are pretty screwed down and due to the absolutely vast volume of attacks that bounce of most organizations they really have to be.

In shadowrun the basics aren't screwed down with wireless and the script kiddy really can ruin your day. Quite promptly. Infact, everyone in shadowrun knows that fear of electronic security is probably overrated. Or it might not be if everyone breaks out the blackhammer and sends a commando team around to kill you dead if the get a trace on you.

But the alternative - no wireless - isn't even particularly hard, and certainly isn't the 'fanwank' you so rashly accuse me of wink.gif. Office buildings are seriously probably 6 years old. So.. they already have cable runs from when it used to be wired. It's basically free to use wired. It is already there. And it hardly has to be impenetrable. All you need to do is have your CCTV cover each other and the locks. And then use one of the (currently newish, well, less than 10 years old) digital CCTV systems that lets you recognize people moving around and stuff. In 2070 that system probably costs 4 dollars and comes free in breakfast cereal. That covers physical security to a tee. Paint it with wifi paint, and you're done.

But the real reason it all strikes me as totally silly is that the players don't do it. Do any of your guys leave their full PAN enabled, or leave their skillwires connected to their commlink on a run? If so, have you ever had the systems security spider hack it and make the poor guy shoot his teammate in the back? Or even just throw his cyberlimb into redline and leave it there?
blakkie
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 19 2007, 06:06 AM)
In shadowrun the basics aren't screwed down with wireless and the script kiddy really can ruin your day. Quite promptly.

Script Kiddies are maybe Skill 1, Program 4ish as written. That'll often be able to screw with Joe Lunchbox's commlink but it is a huge longshot to get into a credstick or really any 'exec' I've ever run. He probably wouldn't even be able to crack the menu at the Hungry Hippo Noodle Hut down the street, though he might.

In your case Script Kiddies could actually hack your exec laptops. Yeah, I know your pain, my wife's laptop has crappy WPA support too so I just put the home wireless station in the basement. Sure can't run full speed on the wireless anymore but it is much tougher to get a signal from the street or a neighbour's house. wink.gif

The biggest problem comes back to the Program Avail/Price table. That I don't play as-is. My Script Kiddies are more like Program 2 or 3. Avail is Rating * 3 and price is...well I don't use the standard cash numbers. But try basically double cost for 1-3 and quad the cost for 4+ or something like that. Actually something non-linear is preferable, roughly 2/3 an order of magnitude per rating increase is how it works out in my system when they are actually being bought straight out. Which is rare for the top-end stuff.

As for the buildings and all remember that with the Crash stuff has had a lot of turnover. Once again why does wireless get used now? Because it does.

And call it whatever you like. Professionalwank if you must. wink.gif But IRL why haven't you gotten WPA 2 Enterprise compatible laptops for the execs yet?
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (blakkie)
P.S. The biggest problem comes back to the Program Avail/Price table. That I don't play as-is. My Script Kiddies are more like Program 2 or 3. Avail is Rating * 3 and price is...well I don't use the standard cash numbers. But try basically double cost for 1-3 and quad the cost for 4+ or something like that. Actually something non-linear is preferable, roughly 2/3 an order of magnitude per rating increase is how it works out in my system when they are actually being bought straight out. Which is rare for the top-end stuff.

I edited my post a bit wink.gif

But yeah, changing program costs does decrease the number of threats, but that skill 1 rating 3 script kiddy is still a non zero threat! Sure, he's never going to haxor into your IC defended security system at the core of your operations - but he could if he got lucky hack into an off the shelf drone.. that also has a light machine gun. He could certainly hack that CCTV and make it display a pr0n loop.

Thats getting into pretty hazardous territory.
blakkie
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 19 2007, 06:29 AM)
But yeah, changing program costs does decrease the number of threats, but that skill 1 rating 3 script kiddy is still a non zero threat! Sure, he's never going to haxor into your IC defended security system at the core of your operations - but he could if he got lucky hack into an off the shelf drone.. that also has a light machine gun. He could certainly hack that CCTV and make it display a pr0n loop.

Thats getting into pretty hazardous territory.

You are missing the hazard on the other side though. Just think if at work you could knockout or kill someone that tried to get into your network. love.gif

Plus IMO you are just thinking this too hard. I'm a....well I've held a crapload of computer jobs over nearly 2 decades, all up and down the software/hardware/network line. SR computers just don't make sense. They never have, although SR4 actually make slightly more sense than prior versions. Just....let....go. Take a higher up view of things. When the dice say the 'script kiddie' got lucky and got in then colour it as the guy that set up the system got sloppy that day. Because the threat from script kiddies to any given system is not zero! That is one of the things that the dice rolling are checking, to see if companybuddy did his job right.

To simulate this at work roll a 6-sider everyday first thing when you get to work. On days it comes up '1' [EDIT: down a 40oz of malt liquor], move a random computer into the DMZ, and don't check for software security updates for your equipment. wink.gif
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Sep 19 2007, 06:29 AM)
But yeah, changing program costs does decrease the number of threats, but that skill 1 rating 3 script kiddy is still a non zero threat! Sure, he's never going to haxor into your IC defended security system at the core of your operations - but he could if he got lucky hack into an off the shelf drone.. that also has a light machine gun. He could certainly hack that CCTV and make it display a pr0n loop.

Thats getting into pretty hazardous territory.

You are missing the hazard on the other side though. Just think if at work you could knockout or kill someone that tried to get into your network. love.gif

Plus IMO you are just thinking this too hard. I'm a....well I've held a crapload of computer jobs over nearly 2 decades, all up and down the software/hardware/network line. SR computers just don't make sense. They never have, although SR4 actually make slightly more sense than prior versions. Just....let....go. Take a higher up view of things. When the dice say the 'script kiddie' got lucky and got in then colour it as the guy that set up the system got sloppy that day. Because the threat from script kiddies to any given system is not zero! That is one of the things that the dice rolling are checking, to see if companybuddy did his job right.

To simulate this at work roll a 6-sider everyday first thing when you get to work. On days it comes up '1' move a random computer into the DMZ and don't check for software security updates for your equipment. wink.gif

And that would be a better change control process than some people ^_^

However, the point of this thread was to hash that out! Atleast a bit. I'm still kind of enamored with the momhammer actually, if you have an arbitary gadget that allows you to force computer systems into wireless mode (even if they don't have it, like super activators except in gun form) you can probably justify it.

But I mostly like trashing issues out so I can develop my understand of how it's supposed to work, or in this case, not work. Though my only real issues with the matrix rules are: wireless is stupid, how do I make the decker leave the house and agents are stupid. in reverse order of fixableness wink.gif
blakkie
Getting the decker to leave the house is really a matter of if they want to do something else. But wireless means they don't have to.....and that is OK! Why is it OK? Because they don't want to and they can be there right in the game. Of course they might occationally not be there because of a dead zone. Or someone will use a jammer in the area.

Or yeah, occationally your team will end up in a fairly high security facility that is physically easier to access than via wireless. Say a data processing centre that is the HQ's backend for an A corp. or better, say. That's going to have serious IC patrolling the chokepoint to the Matrix and it could possibly be wired and definately behind a radio-blocking cage.

As a player I've been on a run where the GM set it up like that, it was against the U of Wash I believe. It wasn't totally wired but we had to get inside secured doors to get wireless access behind their firewall. It wasn't a cakewalk to get in and although we did go disgues/stealth that just bought us a bit of time and before it was over we ended up capping one security guard and seriously injuring another and then a short car chase (till the Troll ripped out the tool shelving from the back of our van and threw it through the rent-a-cop's windshield). That all felt right because it was a fairly big installation. Even the wireless inside seemed OK because it assumed someone with the cajones to brave a physically patrolled area and also get through a door with a passkey (or something like that, forget the exact detail there).

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That decker sitting back in his house, does he think he's safe because of it? Or more importantly does the player think his PC is safe? Because if he does then it is because he hasn't gotten into his' character's head yet. He's still thinking 2007 where having his meat body somewhere else makes him safe because his keyboard isn't going to jump up and crack him on the head.

If the above is true then he's a Sir Paul, so named after a guy I knew many years ago that played a plate armour wearing Paladin that insisted on standing at the back of the party in fights and tossing darts. All about the safe, nothing about the valour. A player with that sort of mindset is always going to be difficult to challenge because he's so risk adverse that if you do find a way to challenge him/his character he'll simply not engage at all. frown.gif

In my experience overall wireless actually encourages the decker to leave the house. Because they can do their thing from the backseat of a car or in an alley or at a resturaunt table. Before they had to find a jackpoint, or carry satelite uplink ala 80's. Plus now it is more feasible to make a PC that is a usable decker plus something else. At least for mundanes, not so much for technomancers.

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Agents.....well I know that's been hashed out here before. Hard to sum up the entire contents of those threads. There are some limits on them that people don't realize. Plus I handle large systems a little different than the book...mostly because the book doesn't actually deal with large systems. That's in a sourcebook yet to come. What exactly is your issue again with them?
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