Oh... yeah. That's a good one. Thumbs up, HappyDaze.

-paws

Which sucks for Face Adepts in Missions... time to find something else to do with those power points I suppose.

If you play missions they are.

Yea... your missing the point.

Every shaman (or similarly Charisma linked spellcaster) would make all of those tests ever.

For instance, a stunbold force 10 does...4P? So they'd need 2 successes on Willpower + Charisma (the two best stats of a shaman). At 10 dice (we'll go for the soft-cap-chargen) that's just over 3 successes average on a Composure (2) test.

Here's a change to the DC Drain rules I proposed in this thread.

Here's a thought: instead of Net Hits that changed the DV, why not have the increased Drain based on the number of hits the Opponent rolled on their test? This would be similar to how Drain is calculated for Summoning Tests. It also has the nice mechanic that the Magician isn't getting "punished" for success, it's more of a "negative feedback" situation from the Opponent. The Magician is channeling a ton of Mana and trying to "jam" it directly into his Opponents aura, the Aura "pushes back" on some of that mana and (having no other place to go) it slams back into the originating Magician. For area affect you could use either the highest hits achieved by any opponent, or the total of all hits achieved by all affected by the spell... though the latter may be too punishing for Area Effect spells.

No this doesn't address Overcasting, it's not intended to. It's just something I thought of to make the increased Drain on DC Spells make more sense.

So slightly back on topic- can someone who's been following along post another summary of the changes noted thus far? I'd compile one myself but I a.) don't have SR4A yet, b.) would have to read back through 15 pages of debate and c.) am lazy.

And I also said our table increased the drain on stun spells.
Yes, you’re talking about soft-caps, min/maxing and such...
My character is a shaman with a will of 4 and charisma of 4. Also, my character has a magic of 4 (well 6 but 2 are in adept powers) and spellcastng of 4. Yes I am specialized in combat spells and have a mentor spirit bonus in them as well but that only gives me 12 dice for casting and 8 for resisting... (For completeness I do have a F4 ally spirit but he is bound to a body and is not available all the time) I take drain enough. The new rule affects 8 of my 14 spells. The changes to OR affects 6 (7 if you include invisibility) of my spells. So, yea I am a bit upset with it. I didn't min/max my character to dish out damage. I have been playing him since 4th Ed came out, I have over 430 karma and yet none of my dice pools are over 12. (Yes, I can get to 16 with my ally but as before he is not around all the time.) Mind you my character has saved the team more that all the other characters combined and they roll more dice than I do for their specialties.
Yes I have stunbolt and stunball (because I feel leaving targets alive is better than killing them, my sidearm is even a narcoject pistol) and one direct damage spell to deal only with spirits, that’s 3 out of 8... The rest only affect objects. My character is useless. You tell me what my options are.
The "fix" they came up with fixes nothing. The player who makes balanced characters is the only one to suffer under it... Min/maxed characters are marginally hindered by it. Play a mage with 400 karma and most people will have a magic of 8... Wow.. You just did 8 damage and still took no drain.
Not only are the rules encouraging overcasting but they are encouraging min/maxing. This is fine in some circles but is frowned upon in ours.

Cool... I didn't know somebody could get a job repairing dice

I think you mean for highly diverse skilled characters... because with skills basically capped at 6... you'll hit that ceiling pretty quick.

The other problem I've always had with the skills system. Even if I have to deal with attributes being more expensive than skills, I quickly hit the peak. I can either spend 0 karma and go nowhere, or I can spend an exorbitant amount to improve my pools by 1.

I don't see why skills couldn't have been made half as expensive, but expand the range up to 12 (char gen still being limited to 5/6). That not only solves the problem of increasing attributes, but also allows FAR MORE character growth. If I max out my Automatics skill (6) at char gen, and buy my Agility to 5, then my character has only two avenues of growth: 1 more die to killing people and Sideways. He can never be better at what he does, all he can do is learn New Things.

Allowing skills to progress past 6 (say, after chargen) would go a long way towards making skills more important in the game... after some play time. Keep Attribute advancement cost with the X5 multiplier, but allow skills to advance to 12, with the current multiplier. Skill would eventually outweigh natural talent, but after a lot of experience.

That sort of makes sense, doesn't it?

Quite. I was mostly ignoring whatever multiplier on Attributes merely for the sake of "where they max out." If my attributes can only be improved so far (+1 to +2 over what chargen gives me) then I might buy that up first (if cheap)* or later (if expensive), but in either case, the cap on skills allows for more improvement in the long run.

*Ex: leave attribute is *3, skill is *2. Buying a single skill to 9 costs the same as the attribute to 6. Skill groups would need to come down though: 25 karma to raise a group to 5. So I could see a swap between groups and attributes: attributes are *5, skill groups are *3.

Mechanically, it makes oodles of sense.
Thematically, it may not. I wont pretend to know what Synner wants for a theme but he may want a "Capped" world.

*may* people, may

Skiil groups to *3 is a bit drastic, I would lower it to *4 at most. But the group I run with has had attributes at *4 since the beginning so going to *5 is not so bad.

Draco18s, in Malachi's scheme, the 'world's best' Rating would be 12, with your example of 9 being in the 'top gun' category. It would make sense to me that getting a whole Group to that level should be way difficult. Michael Phelps can outswim anybody, but give him a shotput and let's see how well he does.

Well it's really (8-2)*5 = 30 karma... because the racial bonuses don't count when improving an attribute with karma.

I agree... except for Magic... you have to pay silly karma to initiate... and then start paying 35,40,45,50 additional karma to bring the magic attribute up to your cap...


Old New
Initiate Lvl 1 13+21 13+35
Initiate Lvl 2 16+24 16+40
etc...

For the record, and just so my message box gets a rest:
Cameras and most other individual sensors are intended to be treated as Electronic Equipment (ie. Object Resistance 4). The gamemaster is, of course, free to rule that a particular sophisticated sensor suite/array is so complex and offers so much rendundancy that it qualifies for Object Resistance 6. While some sensors may indeed incorporate enough processing power and data management subsystems to qualify as "computers", the sensor itself is usually a relatively simple electronic system that that lack the mechanical complexity, technological sophistication and subsystem integration that drones, commlinks, and 2072 vehicles possess.

I think it would help to give cameras as an example for an electronic equipment in the print version of SR4A, eh?
Besides that - thanks for the clarification. as usual :>

So buy Pirated Activesofts for 1000*rating?

Please don't take this as me trying to be a dick but...
Commlinks have cameras and microphones on them... By your rules a commlink is OR6. Unless we are supposed to sperate objects out to their components that would make fooling a commlink camera with imp. invisibility OR6. If we are supposed to just count the camera by itself why would we count drone sensors any different.

You don't. It all depends on being a full blown node or not. peripheral devices are OR 4, anything being a full blown node is OR 6. A camera IS a peripheral device. the nexus getting the sensor feed of the camera is not. But because you are tryring to trick the camera it is OR 4. If you are trying to trick the optical sensors of a drone (which are part of the drones full blown node) you have to beat OR 6.

Again I'd ask what the purpose of the change was. This seems like a change in not only the rules but the setting.

1. What sensor isn't a computer, even today? It seems as if you believe some are. Is there something that happened in the Shadowrun setting to change this that I am not aware of? Also, if your meaning of "computer" is a "complex electronic system" then I'm not sure what qualifies as an object resistance of 4. From the setting material I was given the impression that just about everything in the Shadowrun future is a computer to some extent.

2. Is the intent so that illusion spells are still useful against sensors but not against drones? Given that drones are cheap and prevalent throughout the setting, there doesn't seem to be a distinction as they'll be used anywhere that the non-computer sensors were used before.

3. If drones are not used, then why not? Have drones become more expensive? Are they less prevalent in this new setting?

Ah, but the drones node is geting information from its peripheral device (camera), when do you stop treating peripheral devices as seperate from the device they are built into. The sensors (however you want to quantify what they are) are not part of the computer that is a drone.
What about microdrones??
To be honest, this is not a topic I would bother talking about. Nor is it one I care about terribly. Cameras are OR4 drones OR6. Commlinks, while being OR6 are fooled like any other regular camera. I am just in an argumentive mood... with the back and forth emails with my GM over the direct combat spell issue.

1. Uhm - have you read the difference between a peripheral device and a full blown node (ie. a commlink)?

2. Drones were also harder to affect in SR4. the only change was how MUCH harder to affect they are.

3. Simple sensors are much cheaper for surveillance. Threat response will be handled by drones.

Not so.. according to the RAW.

Instead of that...

Use (Force / 1 ) for Overcast spells instead of (Force / 2).

Example: Magic 6
Stun Bolt Force 6: (6/2) - 1 = 2 Stun
Stun Bolt Force 7: (7/1) - 1 = 6 Physical
Stun Bolt Force 12: (12/1) - 1 = 11 Physical

Cuts off Extreme Overcasting at the knees and limits it to just the people that can safely cast it.

Alternatively, for Overcast spells you could add a +1 Drain Value for every 2 points beyond Magic instead of changing the divisor to 1.

Example: Magic 6
Stun Bolt Force 6: (6/2) - 1 = 2 Stun
Stun Bolt Force 7: (7/2) - 1 + 1 = 4 Physical
Stun Bolt Force 12: (12/2) - 1 + 3 = 8 Physical

Under this method, you can still get away with cheap shots taking little to no stun damage. But if you decide to amp it up, then the further you push, the harder it hurts which is the way it should be.

There are a number of ways to fix the cheap casting as has been described. The method used in SR4a doesn't really do anything about it.

You missed the point of the post you were replying to. Accidentally I'm sure.

The point was that all comm-links have an integral camera. It is absolutely not a peripheral device. The post you were replying to never even mentioned nexuses so I don't know how you managed to squeeze them into your answer but they are irrelevant to the point being made.

My problem with picking successes before determining net successes is that it makes magic unreliable. If a tool is unreliable then I discard it for a tool that I can trust to work as desired / required. The sam's guns work upon demand spitting out reliable amounts of damage for a given skill level. Why can't my magic do the same?

Why would I have to play roulette in order to use magic but get to play poker knowing everyone's hands when using a gun?

Thank you!
My point was simple... When do you stop treating an object as a whole...
With Synners ruling any fool with a commlink can see someone with Imp. Invis. if the caster didn't cast at F6 and get 6 hits. (or used edge...)

Yup.

Rail Drones FTW.

The way I ran things back in SR2 for my old group was that racial bonuses didn't count when determining the cost to raise an attribute.

So you had a +2 Str bonus on top of a Base 4 Strength? Yes
You want to raise Strength by +1? Yes
Alright, Karma cost is (New Rating x 3) or (5 x 3) or 15.

Thus anyone raising their STR by +1 / base STR 4 to base STR 5 pays the same amount regardless of race.

It never caused us any heartburn and each player's character's karma costs to increase attributes was the same regardless of race. (Base_Value +1) x 3 Karma.

Blah somebody has been promoting his house rule here so hard that I figured he was quoting the new BBB.

That was already the fact for anyone in SR4 as tricking out simple cameras was only a OR of 3.

@crizh despite that a commlinks camera is not a peripheral device but part of the commlink device I would recommend to reread my post.

Why, have you changed it to address the point that a comm-link is a device with a built in camera that is able to detect invisible characters unless they can beat an OR of 6?

Because that's the way we like it.

Magic has always been different to technology and the difference is part of the appeal of Shadowrun. In some circumstances, a spell is overwhelmingly more effective than a gun or a grenade. It can bypass armour, target someone's mind instead of their body and has LOS range. You can even cast it through a fibre-optic cable and good luck squeezing a grenade down one! But it is also not a precise science and it also has some glaring weaknesses. The samurai never worries if one of his bullets is going to give him a nose-bleed or panics if he has to shoot a drone out of the sky instead of a cop in front of him.

Shadowrun does have a balance, but it's not a balance in the sense that one person's abilities must be the same as someone else's abilities. And that would be a serious change of approach for Shadowrun. It is the balance of everyone has areas that they can dominate in these areas are balanced. If a samurai and a magician have a fight, any supposed "balance" between their combat abilities is irrelevant. The winner will be the one that gets the drop on the other.

If Shadowun were changed so that everyone had more or less the same abilities, but some people called it spells and some people called it guns, I would be very, very disappointed.

K.

If you want to run with your commlinks camera, hoping to get a glimpse at the invisible stranger - go for it. It doesn't affect the use of imp. Invisibility to sneak past the usual camera installed in hallways or over doors. But be sure that you will get a negative perception modifier for using AR that way.

LOL. I have some friends 'trying out' 4e and that's exactly what they hate about it.

While the layout of the Previews is gorgeous, I won't debate that, it does remind me quite a bit of a certain other system that received a controversial overhaul recently...

For the record, and just so my message box gets a rest:
Cameras and most other individual sensors are intended to be treated as Electronic Equipment (ie. Object Resistance 4). The gamemaster is, of course, free to rule that a particular sensor or suite/array is so complex and offers so much rendundancy that it qualifies for Object Resistance 6. While some sensors may indeed incorporate enough processing power and data management subsystems to qualify as "computers", the sensor itself is usually a relatively simple electronic system that that lack the mechanical complexity, technological sophistication and subsystem integration that drones, commlinks, and 2072 vehicles possess.

What I think Synner is getting at here is that a camera is only OR 4, but that when you start having a sophisticated sensor array (say, heat detector, motion detector, camera, ultrasound) all hooked together (much like a metahuman's cybereyes) it gets a lot harder to trick: you've got 3, 4, or 5 different types of sensors you're trying to fool at the same time.

I guess I should try to clarify my questions then:
1. From the setting material I was given the impression that just about everything in the Shadowrun future is a computer to some extent. Is there something that happened in the Shadowrun setting to change the concept that most electronics are more sophisticated computers that I am not aware of? It seemed like such equipment was ubiquitous. This distinction between "electronic equipment" and "sophisticated computers" is seemingly unique to the object resistance mechanic and (as is evidenced by the questions posed) overly complicated. Since the rest of the setting doesn't make such a distinction, why does object resistance, and why the complicated rule?

2. Again, I'm wondering what problem this change was meant to solve. Is the intent so that illusion spells are not useful against drones? Given that drones are cheap and prevalent throughout the setting, there doesn't seem to be a reason to not use them (or sophisticated computer sensors) in almost all cases (except maybe the family run business out in the Barrens.)

3. If drones are not used, then why not? Have drones become more expensive? Are they less prevalent in this new setting?

Why would you get a negative modifier when using AR? The computer sees it then the software (perhaps using a wireless camera for added support) adds the "invisible" person into your vision on your glasses. There is plenty of ways to do this. Not that it was not an option before; but now you can do it with a commlink instead of routing it through a drone. Whatever... It does not matter to me, I was just being silly. I got a kick out of Synners repost of the exact same thing to shut me up.
Some people want magic and tech to follow different rules, that’s fine. I think having them mechanically the same makes it easy to switch from one archetype to another without relearning basic game mechanics. Occam's razor apparently does not apply to RPG's

That's a nice take on it. I will probably use that.

I am thinking that I will keep the revised ORs - I do like the increased differentiation between what a magician can do and a samurai could do (not that I haven't seen magicians pick up a gun and fire with the best of them). But crizh is right in that it's going to render the physical versions of illusion spells next to useless. I don't see a resolution other than explicitly giving illusion spells a different OR to beat, so I'll probably accept that people wont be sneaking past drones invisibly.

It's not entirely a problem. Magicians are just as able to use the same methods to sneak past sensors as anyone else is. And at least I'll be able to scare the players when they find someone who can magic their way past the drones (or rather don't find them).

K.

In that respect, I think Mana spells work the way they work, but physical illusions get "1 automatic success" towards overcoming OR with regards to devices: they were specifically designed to be picked up by camera and such, so they should have some bonus towards fooling cameras and such.

My opinion on Illusion spells is that it's a silly mechanic.

The spell doesn't actually target the 'sensor' so why does the sensor get to resist?

Observe in Detail should allow someone to detect the influence of an Illusion. Hits would simply be a penalty to that Perception Test.

A much cleaner mechanic.

Ah... but is the one maybe two devices in commlinks (camera/microphone) count as an OR6 item or OR4 item for Physical Illusion (and some others) spells. If you treat it as a whole that’s fine but if it’s OR4 you get complicated... Because then you enter the grey area of "But my spell only affects cameras" argument and you start looking at things independently of their whole and it becomes possible to argue that drone sensors are affected.
I am fine with it being OR6; I am just playing devil’s advocate. I dislike grey areas in my rules. I am ok with letting the GM determine some things (like encumbrance) but some things should not be.



*poke with stick*

You missed his whole point - the proposed house rule to an already-abusive rule change would make magic completely unreliable. Should magic be different than guns? Sure, and it is, like guns are different than hacking. But I don't think it's out of line for a mage to be able to reliably use his magic - he already risks Drain and has to worry about counterspelling, wards, and background counts. He shouldn't need to decide "how good" to make his spells based on how well he thinks a random enemy will do at resisting it, doing no damage at all if he guesses wrong one way, and taking a hammer to the gut if he guesses wrong the other way. That's not making magic "exciting", it's making it incredibly frustrating for the player - it's nothing but GM dickery.

The fact that most everything has some memory and processing power doesn't make it a full-blown computer. The distinction in this section is far from unique, we use a parallel distinction between devices (peripherals) and full blown commlinks and nexi in the Matrix rules. Note the distinction in the Object Resistance Table is not new either, only the Thresholds were raised, the text in the table remains unaltered from the original SR4 rules.


Drones are indeed common, but they are far from prevalent (well, outside certain parts of the world). Drones are relatively cheap, but cameras and most other sensors are cheaper still and more cost effective investment. Lone Star might use dozens of patrol drones in Seattle, but most of surveillance comes from hundreds of traffic cams and closed circuit cameras distributed around critical areas. The same for corporate instalations, they'll have far more security cameras than drones with drones operating mostly in areas where fixed coverage has its limitations or open spaces where mobility is a factor.


I'm not sure what we've published that has give you the idea that drones are so prevalent in 2070s society. (This extends to either version of the SR4 corerules. In fact drones are barely mentioned in either versions Security Systems section). While they are indeed common, particularly in security roles, they are more expensive than cameras and other sensors, they are equally vulnerable to hacking and EW, they require specialized personnel to operate at optimal efficiency, and they cost more than passive sensors to be replaced if they are shot down/stolen/'jacked and turned against you.

As for the idea that OR 6 is inaccessible for beginner magicians...

Maybe a combat-oriented magician might have a hard time, but all a magician with a Spellcasting dice pool of 12 (a not-even-optimized Magic 5 + Spellcasting 4 + Spellcasting focus 3 or variation thereof) needs to do is pump his Spellcasting with Edge and his odds increase considerably - it's just no longer a sure thing and not something you'll be able to pull off all the time. (ie. invoke Edge before rolling and you get exploding 6s and a reroll of any failed dice. Let's ignore the exploding 6's for now. Assuming an average roll on the Spellcasting roll, you end up with 4 hits on the initial roll, which leaves you with - at least - 9 dice to reroll. Assuming the Edge reroll comes up average it should still allow you to reach 7 hits). Presto, Improved Invisibility that works against even the toughest OR on the table; now keep it sustained.

Whether a commlink's integral camera/mike is considered part of the commlinks OR 6 or is treated as a simple sensor with OR 4 is left to individual gamemasters - though personally I use the latter option.

All of which does remind me of something we overlooked: the rating of a commlink's camera (I'd suggest Rating 1 for most commlinks, 2 for top-end commlinks).

Perhaps it was the routine SIN checking thing by drones from the main book.