Umm, indirect spells were always blocked by physical stuff between you and the target. you see a guy through a window. You cast an indirect fire spell of some sort. The fire travels from you to the target. It will hit the glass and boom. It won't hit the target and boom.

Also means don't use a mirror to cast an indirect. Then again, if you are using a mirror, you are probably using a direct combat spell. In fact, with the previous example, while the fireball blows up against the window, the direct brainfry spell works unimpeded by the glass.

Or it's a little better build combat mage, who is wise enought to not want to kill the guards. So she casts a Stunball, force 10, with 17 dice for average damage 14 and takes out multiple enemies. And then she saves against 6 drain with 12 dice for avarage damage of 2 that is lowered to 1 by platelet factories.
So 1 point of physical damage, from taking out a group of enemies isn't really that bad. Or she could cast it at force 6 and still take out those enemies and not take any damage, on avarage.

There was no explicit support for this in SR4.

So, we have SR1, SR2, SR3, SR4, and... SR4/20?

Ah yes, but then WHERE does the choice lie with the spellcaster? Does he now get to choose the NET hits used?

there is no indication that he does. the net hits increasing the drain result from the spell resistance test of the target. so he has to lower the used hits in advance.

The piece you quoted says "total hits," which I think is read as "gross hits." So, you roll and get 5 hits. You decide to use 4 of them, defender rolls poorly and gets 1 hit, so your drain is increased by three - i.e. if the drain code is F/2 in the book, it's now F/2 + 3.

At least I think that's the simplest reading of the rules - it's a bit interpretive & ambiguous, but that's English for you.

"Time flies like an arrow." "No, they LOVE arrows."

True, it does. But at an initial pool of 8 or higher has a extremely low chance of ever rolling half 1s. Even at 5 dice (after mods and such) the likely hood of a botch is low enough that it can be discounted most times (1/216). So the odds of botching with 5 dice vs. 8 dice relative to each other is large, but compared to the likelihood of it occurring in a given roll is so small that it doesn't matter:

0.5% vs. 0.08%

At dice pools even higher it's even less likely.

3 dice: 3%
2 dice: 17%

I think it's being called SR4A (that's for "Anniversary" for those who missed it).

What I'm wondering is whether SR4A will be called the BBB (I read "Big Bad Book" somewhere) or BGB ("Big Gray Book").

While I do like the changes posted I really hope that there will be a free errata based on them because I don't think that publishing a collector's book that people have to buy if they intend to participate in open games is fair towards the customers.

It was already clarified that there will be an errata containing the latest changes.

1) It is not a collectors edition. It is the new RAW; the previous 6 printings are now entirely replaced as far as future production is concerned. There is a limited edition available, but the only difference for that is a different cover, & numbered printing. The cover already presented is not the limited edition.

2) It has been very clearly stated that the changes are official errata, and errata will be released as soon as the production schedule clears up.


This is at least the second or third time I have answered that question; read the damn dev's posts next time.

Oh must have missed that.
I hereby retract my former statement and maintain the opposite.




There was no reason for you to do so as it had already been answered.

Hmmm.... I am beginning to get an inkling of where the SR3 holdouts are coming from. Maybe I'll wait for the errata to come out before I decide to spend money.

The problem is, which edition will now be discussed as the default edition on Dumpshock, SR4, or SR4A?

SR4A as it is the actual, errataed BBB. Actually, there is no SR4A. It is the newest version of the basic SR rules set, given a certain name as the included changes came with the release of the 20th anniversary version of the BBB.

Have I just not been following the discussions on Dumpshock closely enough, then? Some of the changes mentioned here seem both large and out-of-the-blue to me.

Check the post times - it was "already answered" as I was typing, probably by at most 30 seconds.

No, you have not. Once again, this is Official Errata to the Shadowrun 4 rules, and the new layout of all future printings of the Core Book. Not a new edition of the game.

and we are back at SR3 rules with a new dice mechanic

Really. They errata'd adept powers down to being cheaper and buying attributes to be more expensive?
I mean, not that I mind the first, but I do mind the second.

That's really going to make astral combat a mess, not to mention making non lethal spellcasting (stunbolt, stunball) very difficult. Sigh, am I the only one who prefers a game where the character's don't have a body count that would make most serial killers proud.

Wow your math is way, way off.

Probability of rolling at least 50% 1's on:
2 dice: 31%
3 dice: 7,4%
4 dice: 13%
5 dice: 3,5 %
8 dice: over 3%

I'm pretty sure up not buying SR4A. Why on earth should I spend $65 for something that is going to start a big damn fight over which rules to use with anyone playing a mage (and get the rest of the group riled up about special treatment for somebody if I don't use the "official rules"), and to top it all off folks can pull out a hard copy of the CURRENT edition and make a very good case about having their character concept blindsided by a collectors edition/some errata that only a complete SR geek would know about. Games where I know that their is some bit of rules that could cause hard feeling by including/banning get moved down my list of games I'd like to run very quickly.

again: the 20th anniversary version IS the current and new bbb which comes ALSO as a LE. there will be no arguements as you would use the current standard RAW with it.

I wuold be pretty suprised if a player pulls out a hard copy of the book that hasn't been printed yet.

It is not 65, it is 45. You are only paying 65 if you want a special cover & numbered printing.

If you use errata, you will be using this printing. If you buy a new book in the near future & on, you will be using this printing.

Last time I am saying this, this is an official update to the existing rules, in the exact same way the 5th printing included errata, the 4th included errata, and 3rd/2nd included errata.

So was D&D 3.0-3.5. Voila, we have Shadowrun 4.5.

Re: Direct combat spells: It appears that there is now a distinction between net successes on the spellcasting/resistance test, and net successes used for damage. That's about the only sensible way to read it; otherwise, a mage throwing a low-force spell could knock himself out on a "good" roll.

Ha~
Apparently after 6...no 8 hours on VOIP with this professor both listening him talk about this project, doing some work for the project, and ignoring him as he rambled on and second-guessed himself, my math skills apparently took a tumble.

To get things back on track (around here? gotta be kidding me)...

There is now a chart with seating capacities by vehicle type.

SR4A is not a collector's edition (though there is a Limited Edition of SR4A). It is the latest printing and revisions for the SR4 system (so much so that the changes will be posted as errata as soon as I can find the time to produce the appropriate document). This is the default corebook for Shadowrun Fourth Edition RPG replacing the original SR4 - it represents the basic rule set for future print runs. You do not need to buy SR4A if you have SR4. The errata this time round were slightly more extensive and reflect game balance changes as well as rewrites and tweaks intended to clarify contentious rules.

The changes to Attribute increase costs and to the threshold difficulties tables reflect adjustments to the game balance that we believed were necessary to make Attributes less dominant statistically as a character development option, make skills more appealing, and bring difficulties in line with an augmented world which integrates the options in all the core books now available.

Those concerned with balance issues regarding Karma generation please note that errata to Runner's Companion will take into account the SR4A revisions.

nice to hear synner. but let me also say: "good job guys n gals."

And again, how does SR4.5 affect Missions characters? Particularly those who's already raised their stats?

Wow, am I seeing a bunch of people who don't have the book passing judgement on something they haven't researched? What is this, some kind of internet forum?

Yes, there are changes. Play with them if you wish, or don't play with them. From what I've read the changes seem pretty sound, and here's why;

Increase of attribute improvement: Yeah, I've seen games where everyone just boost attributes and thinks nothing of skills beyond character gen. Placing more emphasis on skills is a good thing, not a bane.

Adept powers reduced power points: Good call. Those were too powers that people usually just skipped or found other ways to augment because they ate up too much magic. I'd like to have seen the improved attribute drop even lower (.5), but it's still better off.

Max speed in chase combat: It actually matters now. Yay!

Larger penalties for range combat and spellcasting object resistance: Again, good call. There wasn't much of a leap from shooting at close range to extreme ranges. Now there's a bit of one. Maybe players will actually take that simple action to use vision mag.

Nerfing direct combat spells: Again, good call. Before, why would anyone want to have a character learn any spell but stun/powerbolt? Just an attribute to resist? Target drops like a sack of dead puppies. Now, adding a bit of juice to the spell fries the caster. Makes sense to me. I just wish they would have made overcasting a bit more dangerous like someone mentioned above (or maybe changed the drain values for the direct combat spells).

Device Upgrades limited to a +2: SCORE! No more broken "buy the weakest and rebuild it" scam I watch my players do. We still need quality parts, right?



As far as all of the boycotting and outcries I see, why do I see them from people who don't have the book yet? Is it just the common human trend of going, "oh no! Change Bad!" Think for a minute about why the changes have been made and realize they exist for the better.

And about the "changes killing character concept" comment I saw, exactly how would any of these changes kill a character concept? They might kill some serious munchkining, but they won't kill character concepts.

In regards to the higher drain for Direct Combat spells, how is the drain affected for the area spells (manaball, stunball, etc.)? Does their drain value increase for each net hit used per each target?

I'd say that the highest drain value counts.

I do not yet have a copy, but we do have a good idea of some changes, an exact of others.

Good change, much needed, but poorly implemented; such a change makes metatype-strong attributes nearly impossible to raise, & still does not take into account metatype-weak attributes. Without applying calculations before racial modifiers, it solves one problem while creating another.

Basically agreed. Needed change, but not enough. From what I have seen, only Improved Physical Attribute & Increased Reaction where changed - they where not the only ones in need of change, only the most important (& still not reduced enough).

Good change, but again incomplete from what I have seen. If it is current speed, it is good. If it is maximum speed, it is incomplete, needing to take into account acceleration as well.

Good change. Iffy on the OR, but that might because I usually play a magician...

A change was needed, but this is likely one of the worst ways to do it; again, fix a problem by creating another. Instead of creating another sub-system, they should have altered them to work with the damage system everything else uses - Defense Test and Resistance Test.

I do not like it at all, but will think on it some.

If you have a list of what was changed & how, I am willing to format them in a word document, & send it back within a day. All that will remain for you is proofing & implementation.

Also, tried to send this as a PM, but your Inbox is full.

All nice and good to balance character development, but it totally breaks the karmagen.100-200+ jump in the cost of atribute line is pretty damn significand


Did you edit this in? becouse i'm sure this wasn't in you post before i quoted it. Any change on getting some sneakspeak to that errata

The original problem was that skills were too expensive to raise after char gen. Not too expensive relative to stats, plain and simple too expensive.

Hm...should I spend 10 Karma to raise a skill to 5 or should I spend 10 Karma to initiate my first time (ordeal) and get Adept Centering, which effectively nets me a 15 BP quality? (High Pain Tolerance 3)

Or I could spend the same 10 Karma to raise my Body to 2 (new rules, and because otherwise we're not dealing with identical comparisons) which gives me...1 more die to resisting damage; effectively 1 less damage per every 3.

I think I'll initiate. That HPT is worth the same as having taken wounds 3 times with the increased body (I'm likely to be dead at that point) and certainly worth more than the skill (doesn't even matter what skill).

I don't know about you guys, but I like being able to see improvement in my character after about 4 to 6 sessions. Our GM gives us, on average, about 6 Karam a session. I'm already reluctant to spend karma raising a skill because it's so inefficient (and my next 16 karma are already spoken for).

I think alot of these new changes suck, to be honest. And it hurts me to say that because I was an early adopter of SR4, and really love the game.

Upgrades limited to +2? Well shit, that means my dronomancer can't upgrade any of his drones or vehicles to any higher than 5 in their Matrix attributes. That is, unless I start buying security-class vehicles. Of course drones and vehicles with dicky default Pilot ratings might suffer even more under this rule.

Making Attributes cost more really screws up the balance of the game, especially for games currently in play. You also make it quite punishing to play an awakened or emerged character, since their bread-and-butter attribute (Magic or Resonance) now costs an insane amount to raise. They can't afford to raise any other attribute if they want to stay ahead of the curve.

I think alot of these changes come across as half-baked, half-assed, and not thought out very well. While I was excited about the new SR4 Anniversary book, these numerous, fundamental changes to the game are leaving a very bad taste in my mouth.

It was there at least 15-20 minutes before your post, when I read it.

My god, I hadn't even considered drones! The one thing I always did to my drones was give them a better pilot. And better autosofts.

I doubt the developers did either. Now that drones have been brought up, I do not need to think any longer. That rule will not be used in my games, ever.

This rule does not expand to wholy custom made pilots. thus it does encourage taking mechanic oriented skills for rigger characters outta there.

I'm glad the script kiddies will be going the way of the dodo, but I never coded any of my own software either. Mind, that at the time it had an expected completion of 6+ months (even with the requisite skill(s) and a logic of 9).

6 months? I can special order it and it'll be here in 2 weeks.

yeah, that would be the other solution. more power to the crackers :>

I'm kinda pissy because my dronomancer just spent three weeks of downtime doing nothing but making Response 6 chips, mostly for his drones, spending a good bit of cash on them in the process. Now, they're all utterly worthless, as I don't even have anything they could go in.

If they've revised the -3 gimp Drones modifier downwards, I'll be much, much happier. I tend to run heterogenous drone groups, so not being able to sink tens of thousands of nuyen for a paltry few extra dice doesn't really concern me. I run Optimise 1 Ergonomic Autosofts anyway.

Anyone got any info on the Sensor and Gunnery rules?

Not a fan of the Attribute changes, at all, and I will not be using them. This quote says it best:




While I don't think it was much needed, it COULD have still been done, AND been implemented better...yeah. I mean, jesus:

A troll starts with Body 5. Okay, yes, we know for a human that's excellent. But for his race? He's a little guy. Yes, a 5 Body is a 5 Body, BUT, still, thinking about it as a troll. This is minimum by RAW. He needs 30 karma just to be unexceptional for his own race. If he wants to be an average troll? He needs 65 karma total. Erm, NO.

Under the BP system now, I guarentee you that all you'll see now is metas with cranked attributes they get the big pluses for, even more dumped Strength(since it doesn't seem to have gotten any more useful, and you NEED those points now), and yeah. I like my x3 attribute just fine, thanks. At least a troll could be an average specimen for his race for 18+21, or 39 Karma. Still a little handful, but not the plowing this system is. I know some folks like the x5 cost before modifers, but I'm simply not a fan of it and don't see the point. x3 cost is still plenty; it still costs 12 karma to raise a 3 to a 4, and in a typical game, that's a damn month of game time, assuming you don't want to pay karma for anything else.

Honestly, I'd say 4x Attribute cost would have been a good in-between if I HAD to raise them(and BEFORE racial mods.) This way metas aren't hosed, the costs aren't that astronomical, and yeah.

I like the Adept power changes, though-I do agree that Improved Attribute could have EASILY been .5, and has been proven many times to not be unbalanced(and .5/level still favors bio-adepts anyway; getting +2 to Agility and Strength via adept powers with .5 would be 2 magic points, and with bio, .8 essence, or 1 magic point. With initiation to get it back later.)

And the drone rules...lolwut as we like to say? Yeah, that's not going in either.

Well, as they always said-we don't have to use the rules.




Bob really enjoys his Troll Private Investigator character. He was all planned to make the concept up. He had it down. GM told him that he'd be using 700 Karma to build his character with. He wrote up his background and planned the following attributes(with no cyber, of course):

Body: 8(63k)
Agility: 4(27)
Reaction: 4(27)
Strength: 7(39)
Charisma: 4(his one max stat)(27)
Intuition: 4(27)
Logic: 3(15)
Willpower: 5(42)
Edge: 4(he's a lucky PI)-27
Essence: 6(the only cyber he really wants are eye/ear mods, a smartlink, and perhaps some other 'sense' mods to help with his work.)
Initiative:

This way, Bob has some good, solid stats for a character whom he does not plan to cyber up too heavily, as well as having karma for all-important knowledges, Active Skills(he sees him with lots of Perception, Data Search, Stealth, a little bit of pistolsand fisticuffs, and the like.) Bob was counting that his attributes would be 294 karma. It's almost half, but he likes the spread, and doesn't think it's too out of like in his 700 BP game. His 300 BP is perfect for the skills he wants(about 220 Karma worth), some nuyen, contacts, and the like.

But wait! Bob's attributes now cost him 485 Karma. What? So now Bob gets to try to cough up around 190 Karma. That is a big, big hit to his concept.


--

That's just one example. Also, all this will do is make it so that people will go to BP, shove 3's and 4's in stuff and buy up the attributes via Restricted Gear and the like anyway, putting heavily cybered characters *faaaaar* ahead of their non cybered fellows. Yes, cyber gives an advantage, but it will now be huge if they choose that route.

EDIT: Okay, so say this is made to try to make high-skill characters. But wait...weren't those skill levels supposed to be...well, ''best in the world'', etc? You mean that it's better to have a bunch of runners end up ''best in the world'' after a few months of gameplay than it is to just start with some high attributes and branch out?

I'm glad there are free choices and no game police. I was really starting to love the way SR4 was running, too-I had finally began, after the Arsenal, to have it move past SR3 for me. At RC, it was well past SR3. It just went a lot backward in my eyes. I know I'm only one person, but I think this is a case where I'll be sticking with the old rules, thanks.

Obviously, this is up to each individual group, but: As a GM, I would not implement a bunch of revised rules [even just a normal errata update] right in the middle of a game, without first talking to everyone in the group, making sure that it wouldn't ruin characters, making necessary amends if it does, etc.

Really? I think it is pretty realistic. Take your low in laptop, and tell me just how much you can juice it. Now compare this to a state of the art military laptop, and tell me who wins out? Of course security-class vehicles are going to blow away your low end, upgraded piece-of-crap.



Considering what Awakened and Emerged characters get, I consider the price worth it. It means that the mundanes get to shine more, and I'm all for that. Besides which, attribute increases should begin to slow down at the 3 mark... you're humans, not super heroes, and your attributes should reflect that. The majority of your ability should be from skills.



I disagree, obviously.