Don't flatter yourself Cain. I'm only responding because you're launching invalid attacks on my arguments. "Someone disagrees with you" does not mean "you are wrong," though this is the false equivalency you have presented in every post so far on this topic. I am defending my position against your non sequiturs, I don't give a damn whether it's you or someone else launching them at me.



That quote doesn't prove anything at all. At best, it proves someone disagrees, but not that they're in any way reasonable in disagreeing. I'm pretty sure that the arguments I made in my substantive post stand unrefuted, except for you coming out and saying that they're wrong because, I suppose, I used the words "common sense" and "fun." Your attacks have simply been to say that common sense is subjective, and reasonable minds could differ, therefore my interpretation is wrong, even though you're not taking a position. That is logically invalid, it's a red herring, and it's self-contradictory. I have already explained this, but rather than responding, you have repeated yourself, and added insults to back up your repetitions.



I was making the argument why OR does not apply to everything. You replied, in a very rude manner, that I was full of shit. And now I'm the one who's attacking you? That is bullshit, even for you Cain. Usually I respect your ability to argue, but for some reason on this thread you are failing miserably to make anything like a rational argument. If you have a substantive argument to make, if you want to actually disagree with me, then please do so. But as it is, I can't see any point to your involvement other than to actually try and provoke me. You're wading into the argument specifically to declare that I'm wrong, but also simultaneously disavowing that you have a stance -- and you want me to believe that I'm the one at fault, like I forced you to do it or something? We have a word for this kind of shit, it's spelled T R O L L. So this is my last response to you on this thread, Cain. You're not interested in a real debate, you're trolling. Meal ticket's over troll, I'm not feeding you any more.

I get it. Anyone who disagrees with you cannot be reasonable?

You asked for a quote from me, defending a position I do not hold. I gave it to you, and your only response is that it's not reasonable? You asked for the quote, research it and back it up: prove that it's not reasonable.


I never replied to you in the first place. I was replying to a post by Draco18s as to why following the RAI is a futile endeavor. Your response was, nine posts later:

I haven't declared that you're wrong, or even taken a position yet. I've merely pointed out that trying to discern the Rules as Intended can cause just as much headache as following the Rules as Written. I'm not wanting to disagree on this topic, I'm wanting to learn enough to form a position. For some reason, you seem to have taken this very personally.

Hey chummers, wouldn't be better to tone down the aggro just a bit?

I was the one that stipulated a couple of pages past that under certain reading of the BBB, it can be argued that every spell which is cast on an object is subjected to beating the OR. As an example I took the levitation spell, as this is the one where the influence of the OR is blatantly obvious. eg the commlink.

I wanted to show that it is a very stupid interpretation and by comparison that it is stupid or illogical for physical illusions that are observered to beat the OR of the sensors. If the spell is cast on the sensor itself, like chaos, it is logical to beat the OR.
In the other case it is logical if the illusion is beat by a sensor + clearsoft roll.
This to avoid all the other cheeziness, like detecting invisible mages with floating commlinks (OR 6 to make invisible) through a smartlink guncam,....

I think we should steer the discussion in the direction of a solution for RAW, not to attacking Cain, or anybody else, as this in not productive.

I hear what you're saying Marduc. But I don't see why sensors would resist with sensor + clearsoft, when people don't get to use their Intuition + Perception, they're stuck with a plain ol' Intuition + Counterspelling roll. The change you suggest would break the rule that inanimate objects never get a resistance test against magic, their one defense generally being their OR. Furthermore, AFAIK, Clearsoft is only available to things with a Pilot rating, so cameras that were part of non-rigged security systems with no dogbrain would be up a creek against invisibility.

Honestly, now that I have SR4A, I think the solution is pretty simple: rule that sensors are not "highly processed" with an OR of 6, but rather that they are "manufactured high tech ojbects" with an OR of 4. This is entirely within the RAW, which describes OR 4 objects as including "Electronic Equipment." I think it's a mistake to take the word "Computers" in the OR 6 category and rule that everything has OR 6 because everything is basically a computer in SR4. That is the very result everyone is complaining about. Nothing in the book is mandating that people assign OR 6 to everything -- it's one possible interpretation that underpants have OR6 because there's a computer chip in there somewhere, but as that would create an obviously undesirable result, it's not the interpretation anyone should want to use. OR 6 means vehicles and drones themselves, not electronic equipment attached to them -- to mess up the vehicle's radar (if you could somehow get LoS on it) would only need to beat OR 4, but there's no escaping the fact that vehicles are going to shrug off most magic in SR4A, until the point where you can beat their OR, in which case they will probably explode instantly. But again, it's very easy to escape the result where invisibility never works against sensors by simply adopting a more forgiving reading of the OR table. It's an easy solution that doesn't even require a house rule.

Again, like I explained earlier, the example of a sensor detecting a floating commlink is erroneous. Invisibility masks all the gear you are wearing. The target of an illusion does not resist the casting of the illusion spell at all, whether voluntary or not. That means the target doesn't resist, nor does any piece of gear he's wearing, such as a commlink. You could even cast an illusion directly on a camera to make it appear as a watermelon, and you would not need to beat OR. The thing that resists an illusion is not the thing that is being concealed, but the thing that is being fooled by the illusion. So the camera would not get a resistance of any sort, it would simply look like a watermelon to anyone who failed their test to resist the illusion. In order for other cameras to see a watermelon, your spellcasting test would need to meet the Object Resistance of 4. But as long as you got 4 hits, all cameras everywhere would think it was a watermelon. The invisibile mage's commlink will always be invisible to anything that fails its resistance test, regardless of whether the mage beats their own commlink's OR.

I want to stress this: Illusions are always successfully cast as long as you get one hit on the test, and can be sustained indefinitely, even if everyone who encounters the illusion resists it. The only way illusions go away is when the spellcaster stops sustaining them, or someone dispels them. This is not a case of spells succeeding or failing to be cast, but rather a case of each target resisting the effects on their own. Sensors, rather than rolling resistance, are only fooled if their Ojbect Resistance threshold is met. And all we really have to do to un-nerf most illusions is rule that sensors are OR 4, something that is entirely within RAW because they are unquestionably "electronic equipment." I think that much of this debate has been born not from the facts, but from people either not having or not taking a critical look at the OR table. And also from people not understanding how spells work in the first place, and assuming that every spell has the same OR resistance mechanic as direct combat spells.

The one complaint I could forsee would be from riggers and/or GMs who want to insist that a sensor attached to a vehicle or drone should be considered part of the vehicle or drone, and thus have an OR6, and not OR4. To this I would say that, while that's a reasonable interpretation, I don't like the idea of giving something the OR of whatever it's attached to. I would follow a simple verbal formulation: is the thing itself a vehicle, computer, or drone, or an integral part thereof? If so, it is OR6. If it is instead equipment installed on the vehicle, computer or drone, it would be "electronic equipment" with OR 4. It shouldn't matter if it is attached to a vehicle or drone. Nor should it matter if there's, like, a microchip in it somewhere. If we were to rule that every electronic thing was a computer, then the words "electronic equipment" in the OR 4 category would be written out of existence. Again, it is possible to read "computer" so broadly that you wreck every illusion spell, because you decide that every camera is also a computer. But that's like stabbing yourself and then complaining about it. The way to get rid of that pain is not to stab yourself in the first place -- rule that cameras are electronic equipment, not computers. Seems reasonable, doesn't it?

Now, the issue of sensors having OR4 despite being attached to vehicles is primarily relevant for sensors resisting illusions and not other kinds of spells, since I'm pretty sure there's almost no chance a mage would ever get LoS to a vehicle's sensor package, or to a jammer installed on a drone for instance. We're not so much dealing with a case of mages having an easier time attacking that electronic equipment, since that's normally installed inside the vehicle or drone where it can't be seen. Rather, it's a case of it being feasible to trick that equipment with illusions. Which is, ultimately, a very minor thing. All a rigger needs to do to spot mages is install some radar (which vehicles have automatically). That takes care of your invisibility spells right there, anyway... Sensors have such an easy time piercing illusions anyway (but using senses that aren't fooled by the illusion, generally) that no riggers should complain about their sensors having OR 4. After all, their vehicles and drones, which are what really cost a fortune, have OR 6 and are thus quite nuke resistant, which is the most important thing to a rigger...

I'm glad you removed this line:



As it conflicts with this line.





Physical Illusions are to the perceiver the same as indirect spells are: both create physical effects that are identical to their scientific counterparts, only caused by magic. Objects get the same resistance roll that people do against indirect spells, so I don't see why they couldn't get a similar roll vs. illusions.

If you think that because mundans only get Intuition + Counterspelling then we can drop objects down to Sensor Rating. No clearsight autosoft.

But then, technology wouldn't be more resistant to magic than people. If people are to be easily fooled by an illusion, then they should have fewer dice. Including Clearsight allows technology to do exactly what Synner says it does: notice flaws.

Edit: Another thought. Drones (even less susceptible?) could add their pilot rating too.

This would open a whole can of worms, where you consider sensors apart from drones and vehicles. This would allow them to be targeted by powerbolts (net hits = 5) which destroy the sensors but leave the remainder of the drone intact.

Therefore I don't like to discriminate between the carrier and a part of an object.

Target the tires of car with a powerbolt (rubber/tires = OR 2/3)
Target the windows (OR = 2)
ect

Also there are atleast two kinds of illusions:
Offensive illusions and helpfull/other illusions

The first catergory includes stuff like
chaos, chaff, flak, orgy, foreboding, bugs, swarm, orgasm.

The other caterogory includes stuff like
invisibility, mask, camouflage,

The first catergory I see as being resisted by OR / intuition + counterspelling

The second catergory I see as being autosuccesfull but pierced by a perception + intuition / sensor + clearsoft.

And yes this would leave the plain old security cam very much in the dark, as it sees only what there appears to be, but it does't perform any kind of image analysis. It's just a camcorder + VCR tape. NO fancy deal.

The problem which has arisen, IMHO, comes from trying to aply a general rule to two kinds of spells. It would be the same as if it were stated that all manipulation spells are subjected to OR, which would result to some insane results, as I tried to demonstrate.
The solution would be the same for illusion spells as it is now for manipulation spells.

Why would you post this? I edited my post as I was crafting it. It seems a little bit aggro of you to point out a mistake I quickly corrected.



Using Sensor to resist would be a house rule. Use it or don't. I'm proposing a RAW alternative, I'm not interested in using a house rule, I don't think it's necessary to add more rules onto the game to fix this problem, the RAW works as long as you take a balanced view of it.

And yet from what Synner has said, that seems to be RAI.

Because it's constantly posted that illusions don't have a target when they very clearly do: the object they're making invisible (or whatever). I know you fixed it, but many many people follow that exact line of reasoning: "they don't target anything, except that they effect a target."

I don't see how that's a whole can of worms, or at least I don't see what's so bad about the worms. Remember, to cast on anything, you need LoS to it. Vehicle sensors aren't generally big ol' things sticking out of the vehicle, some of them are internal like radar, and others are likely to be incredibly hard to spot. You can't just blind a vehicle by targetting the sensors unless you know where they are. It's up to the GM if you can even spot them in the first place (and as a GM, I would typically say no). And tires/windows can already be targeted by guns, and are easier to destroy, so what's the problem with allowing that via magic too? As a rigger, if someone breaks my tires or windows, my response is going to be something along the lines of "oh noes, not mah windows! eat HMG fire."

Ultimately, I don't think it's a big deal though. Letting vehicle cameras have OR 6 is fine with me, I don't mind vehicles and drones being good anti-mage tools. What I strongly disagree with is calling all cameras and sensors of every type "computers," and saying that they have OR 6. That goes too far in nerfing spells, and it is not commanded by the RAW. As I've said before, the only reason to adopt this interpretation is to "prove" that the game system is broken. People like to say that this interpretation being available somehow makes the game bad. But that's neither here nor there IMO. I'm not debating whether the game is good or bad, I'm just saying, if you want to play, why not pick the interpretation that you don't hate?

I agree with this. Even in my revised OR table (whole vehicles as OR6, drones at OR5) I included the option to target portions of larger objects, such as the side paneling on a van.

Even if it means everyone gets themselves a little personal microdrone to auto-foil invis?

Everybody already has that, it's called ultrasound and/or radar vision! It's the 70's man, get with the program!

Actually, most of my group didn't have ultrasound, until they had to face bandersnatch.
And funny enough, I made a manipulation spell to foil ultrasound too (much in the same way illusions can mimic sound, I did an 'invisibility to sound' type spell). Not so hard.

like "silence"?

Silence would create a "hole" in ultrasound vision because the subject removes sound that would otherwise pass through, bounce off something behind him, and then come back.

Exactly. Silence doesn't quite cut it. In fact, Silence has other, handy uses, that this spell wouldn't have. The thing that gets me though, is that multi-sensory spells don't really increase the drain code -- you could make an invisibility spell which also cloaks your ultrasound, infrared, etc, signature, and it won't increase the spell drain beyond 'more than one sense'.

The problem here is that commlinks, being computers, *are* OR6. And they come with an integrated cameraphone. It makes no sense that a cheap cameraphone would be better able at penetrating illusions than a dedicated security camera. You're right that declaring all cameras to be OR6 doesn't solve this problem, but it does cook up a few of its own.

I was arguing that we declare all cameras, whether attached to a car or a computer, to be OR4, because they're electronic equipment. Just because they're hooked into a computer or vehicle doesn't mean they are computers or vehicles. That means that the security camera and the cheap camera phone are both overcome by a skilled magician with 12 dice. I prefer this solution, because calling them all OR6 pretty much destroys illusion as a viable type of magic. It does create the sticky problem of whether I can powerbolt the camera of a commlink but not the commlink itself, but I think that's a minor problem compared to requiring every mage to roll 6 hits just to trick a security camera with an illusion. Honestly, I'd say go ahead and powerbolt the camera of my camera phone, or the camera of my vehicle's sensor package. I'll have suffered a few hundred yen of loss, and next turn I'll blast you. Works for me

Yeah, I'm thinking "Demolish Sensors" is looking pretty attractive.

Good point. I agree.


Again, I agree. In fact, it may be more effective to take out the cameras than to try and sneak past them.

Or creating a Physical Multi Sense Illusion called 'Improved Indetectability'...

As noted in a press release, OR thresholds have been partialy reduced.

As mentioned previously as Lead Developer at the time I take full responsability for the changes to OR (which reflect the changes to the core Success Test Difficulty Thresholds). Several options were playtested and analyzing feedback I decided that the 1,2,4,6 progression reflected my intent to make technology harder to affect, damage, and boost through magic. 1,2,3,5 was the second alternative in terms of threshold change. Catalyst has opted to make the change in thresholds in response to community feedback to the original PDF release, and that's fine, it reflects the sensibilities of the new Development team and their (different) perspective on game balance.

As it seems to have gotten buried, and Larme is taking the burden of restating it here is my previous comment regarding OR and sensors:



I've also explained the reasoning behind why individual Sensors (as opposed to complex Sensor packages that would otherwise cancel out most illusions anyway) would count as OR4 (now OR3) in the quote below:

As a side-note: Due to the former (preSR4A) ambiguity of OR when it came to vehicle-mounted sensors, as a GM, I advised mages to cast Improved Invisibility at Force 4, so they could be sure.

With the current release of SR4A and the Changes Document, thankfully, it's now clearer. (It lists Sensors at Level-III-OR). That's now a threshold of 3 - a threshold of 4 would have been fine, too.

I see. So, it was a unilateral decision on your part, and not reached by committee or discussion. That explains a lot, thank you.

I don't understand where "technology is difficult to affect by magic" comes from. Magic walking all over tech is what shaped SR. That you cannot powerbolt a piece of metal, because it has some electronics and hydraulics inside (aka a drone) just doesn't make sense to me. It makes tech mystical for some reason, which shouldn't happen. Spells designed to affect tech, should affect tech. Now somehow they don't really do that anymore, unless you're a cheesed out mage, which makes such spells silly. I know this has not changed with SR4A, but it was aggravated to a point, where it pretty much destroys suspension of disbelief.

Platon's Theory of Forms, essentially. The more disconnected something is from nature, the harder it is to connect to it when using magic - which stems from nature.

there is a precedent in the requirements for foci creation.

the more hand made a object is, the easier it is to turn into a foci.

As usual, that was not what was said. I suggest you reread my post. Ask anyone I've worked with during my tenure as developer and you'll find that very few of my decisions were ever "unilateral."

The decision was made after playtesting feedback was analyzed and discussed. For the record, feedback was unequivocal that the thresholds should be increased (and the ORs accordingly with all the ramifications thereof). It was also divided roughly down the middle on which of the 2 aforementioned options was best. After several consults and discussions, the 1,2,4,6 option was chosen. As with any rules change or tweak the responsability always lies with the Line Developer since it is he/she who makes the call. I stand behind the decision I made.

You've still not commented on the fact that your explanation of why Illusions are resisted by objects through OR is actually a reason for objects to use Sensor Rating + Clearsight (or Pilot + Clearsight).

Where does it come from? I'd say it comes from the entire history of Shadowrun. Is it illogical? Of course, it's goddamn magic. It doesn't obey any rules of logic or science, and it's a bit silly to expect that from magic.

My explanation is this: all natural materials have a certain level of mana in them. Something being processed and refined forces the mana out. That makes it harder to affect with magic. Why would processing something force the mana out of it? That's the unexplained part that you just have to accept. It's magic, not science, and thus is liable to not make sense much of the time.

As for your assertions about them not really doing that any more... That's not strictly true, unless you're talking about the pre-update changes. I also don't understand this repeating refrain: it sucks that a mage has to cheese out to be really awesome. What, you want to be awesome without having high dice pools? That's been repeated over and over, and it is frankly a batshit insane position to take. You take low, sucky dice pools, and you should expect to suck. You make a powerful character, then good for you, you don't suck. The idea that creating a powerful character can be turned into a bad option by applying the label "cheese" is just not based on any kind of objective reality.

My drake adept is awesome and doesn't have cheesed dice pools. My highest is 13 when I aim once.
Sure, I'm not more deadly than the rest of the party (cough, sniper wielding the full auto shotgun, cough), but I've taken out my share of mooks. And done it without getting turned into swiss cheese too.

Ah, that explain why Denver is not controlled by a Dragon who threatens everyone with magic. They simply threw a few drones at him to hose him into oblivion, when he tried to assume control... oh, wait. If technology = king than every single magical uprisng in SR does not make any goddam sense. Tibet for example. Fly a few drones through the barrier, they will not be affected. But look with a sofisticated satelite first, since it will also not be affected and recon is important. Same thing in Tir na Nog. Kick those IEs right in the stomach. South America? Send in a few bulldozer drones, they will do just fine.

Yeah, I totally see how SR history backs magic beeing suckerpunched by tech. Or maybe it doesn't?

Btw, rules of sience do not apply to magic, but why the hell is it hindered by science then? Weird.

lets just say that both dragon and tibetan barrier is of the chart when it comes to potency...

Will these explanations be in errata?

They'll certainly go along way to helping people who don't come to dumpshock.



I'd also like to hear reasoning as well, mostly because I think Sensor+Clearsight is not only similar to another mechanic, but it also clears up a ton of confusion in one fell swoop. It also totally removes the issue of "Am I affecting the drone, or the drone's sensors?"

Also if Synner is feeling generous, maybe we can also get some insight on the Direct Combat Spells Drain changes, and why Overcasting was left as a more appealing alternative. Pretty please?




While I don't like tech suddenly becoming nigh invulnerable to being directly affected by magic at OR 6, Ghostwalker threatens everyone with him being a Great Dragon.

Magic is just the icing on the cake, dragon magic.

Actually, Ghostwalker threatens everyone with being a Great Dragon and a Spirit Army.

Synner says something to the effect of that "cameras and drones can analyze and pick out the small details in the illusion that makes it 'not quite real' such as being translucent or shimmering."

something that makes a fair bit of sense, as the human brain has a somewhat bad habit of filling in blanks and guesstimating what its looking at.

The key part here is analyze the image which is software based. Clearsight autosoft software specifically.

Probably because the things people are asking to do fall into the average category for them not the AWESOME. They want to pull off average things and this OR test made them have to be AWESOME in order to pull off the average. Honestly if they had gone with Sensor+clearsight which would have been more logical there probably wouldn't be this issue at all. OR 6 would be fine if they had a decent exceptions list for spells that don't pay attention to OR. Like physical illusions, indirect combat spells etc.

Actually no, that's not what Synner said.

What Synner said was that illusions are cast on something and create an effect before it is ever seen by anything whatsoever. This is key to understanding the concept of Physical Illusions in Fourth Edition (and I will note for the nth time, that this is regardless of whether we're talking SR4 or SR4A). The distinction is that we wanted Physical Illusions to be "passive" in the sense that they didn't magically edit what the camera was seeing, but they actually took effect on the target regardless of whether or not the camera saw it.

For example, were you to cast a Physical Mask spell on yourself or a chummer it would take effect before it is seen by any camera (or other sensor). In fact, your mundane unaugmented chummer across the room would see it. What's happening is that that the "magical hologram" of the illusion is "draped" over a target/subject. So in fact the spell effect happens independently of whatever is percieving the illusion. Physical Illusions are in fact "editing reality" rather than the "perception of reality" (which is what Mana Illusions do).

In the case of the Physical Mask or Improved Invisibility, this magical hologram (in the former an image of someone else's face, in the latter an image of empty space) is what the camera detects/senses (regardless of any analysis software or human examining the feed). OR 4 (now OR3) represents the "quality" needed to make an image (or sound or whatever) convincing and detailed enough for it to register as "real" on camera. It assumes that technology will pick out flaws better that the human eye (in metagame reasoning mainly because the human mind has a habit of filling in blanks and compensating for apparent discontinuities in what it expects to see - as any current day illusionist/slight of hand artist will be happy to point out). It also assumes that whatever analytical software or human observer (which is not factored into the equation) is behind the camera feed is constrained by the fact that they only see what the camera shows them. If your spell is good enough to create an illusion that "looks" real in front of the camera (ie. has no apparent flaws, such as looking transparent, or the bendy light thing in the spell description causing lens flare where there shouldn't be, or shadows falling oddly on or through the illusion, etc.) What this means is that the illusion that the spell creates doesn't magically affect the camera itself, but creates an illusion that a camera then percieves (passively as it were).


That's true, I've been kind of busy of late wrapping my final two books for Catalyst.

There were several reasons for deciding not to change, though four stand out:

• SR4 (basic) opted for streamlining this rule so it played off OR and for the reasoning provided above and below we saw no reason to change it.
• With the OR mechanic you only need to make a single roll when Spellcasting (vs. OR). You note your hits and that roll works for every sensor you come across while that spell is active (which will be either OR4 or OR6 /now OR3 or OR5). This simply translates to faster resolution in play. The alternative mechanic would require every camera/sensor you come across to make a separate resistance roll and it didn't match the passive nature of Physical Illusions.
• Consider that many illusions are in fact intended to be pretty fantastic (and unrealistic) - these would still be convincingly "real" to a camera, but an observer would imediately call foul if they saw Pokemon walk into the lobby from the security room AR feed.
• We also assumed that camera (and microphone) technology in general has pretty much hit a high enough level that the quality of the feed itself has topped out, and there is little difference in actual quality of the capture (resolution, contrast, aliasing, etc) whether you're using a commlink camera or a handycam (ruling out environmental impairments and distance). This is why we didn't add Sensor Ratings to camera in the Gear chapter (the new ratings for cameras and mikes represent Capacity).
• Sensor Rating + Clearsight or Pilot + Clearsight plays on the assumption that the camera/sensor actively opposes the illusion. That wasn't our intent; Physical Illusions produce free-standing real, physical effects which are may then be viewed/sensed/recorded (or not), with a greater or lesser degree of "realism" by the sensors percieving them. Physical Illusions are in fact independent of any observing individual or device and therefore the choice of a simple OR roll.

On a different note, the OR of 4 was deemed acceptable because it represents a good if not automatic chance of success for a Spellcasting dice pool of 12 (without Edge use), which is well within reach of a non-maxed out starting magician (even if it means he now has to pick up a spellcasting focus) as well as representing a steeper grade in the magic affecting technology aspects of game balance.

All that said there's no reason you can't introduce a Pilot + Clearsight Test to the equation if you feel you must, this would represent analytical software sorting for inconsistencies and pattern recognition after (even if instantly after) the camera records the feed—I know I've done it in the past. It complicates play slightly, but as several such rules it's one I had earmarked for the Alternate Rules section in a future Mr. Johnson's Companion.

As for what spells OR applies to, in hindsight this could have been handled better. To be honest it is one point that didn't occur to me might need clarifying. Consequently, there was no change between SR4 and SR4A. For the record only spells that specifically mention they are opposed by OR either the spell description or in the spell category description are intended to be subject to OR.

...

Only now every mage ever knows exactly when his spell isn't going to be "successful enough."

"Hey chummer! You gettin' a good feed of my illusion?"

"Nope! Try again!"

Unlike every other stealth character ever made.

What the hell are you even talking about? Are you supposing that great dragons don't have more than 18 dice to cast a directed combat spell? Or that a magical nation doesn't have mages with at least 18 dice? Or that both dragons and magical nations have decided to learn only directed combat spells? Drones are worthless against great dragons who not only have high enough casting pools to blow them up with one spell, but could also swat them down with their tail if they felt like it. Same with magical nations, who almost certainly have a large contingent of mages that have high casting pools and/or indirect combat spells. If they didn't, neither would exist, because they would have been killed by drones already. The fact that they're still around means that, surprise surprise, they're not limited to direct combat spells with noob-level dice pools. And let's not even talk about spirits and rituals. Honestly, are you interested in a real conversation, or are you just spouting nonsense for trolling purposes? If the latter, I apologize for feeding you and I'll stop.

I'm sorry, this still doesn't make sense. You're either stating that all cameras in the world of Shadowrun actively filter the content they view, by automatically filtering "unreal" illusions; or you're stating that there's some (non-software, non-filtering) property of watching a feed on a camera that allows a human viewer to detect an Improved Invisible mage, even though he'd be unable to detect the mage with the exact same spell at the same Force and hits with his own two eyes. Neither makes any sense in the continuity of the world; in the first case, Hollywood would be ruined because the non-realistic illusions they use wouldn't show up on camera, and in the second case, all security forces in the world would walk around with cheap image link camera glasses.

Except it's a world where cameras are fooled a Force 3 Spell with 3 Hits.

Hardly Rocket Magic.

Throwing Adept Squirrels


of Doom!