Yeeeeessss! I love that site so much =) Many DOOM FORTRESS layouts have come from there^^

Don't be so sure. Nuclear material is quite expensive, and they have a government to build. Unfortunetly, they've learned that part quite well from the White Man.

The way reserves are run make me cry. And, yes, I've had some contact with them. An old job I had...

Perhaps, but I'm really thinking that would be a sticking point for the UCAS after Lone Eagle.

Or a backdoor "disposal" deal between Ehran and the UCAS^^

(and yeah, I used to spend summers with my dad's tribe - some of the most depressing stuff you can find in the first world =/)

The Tir was with the NAN at the time. 'Course, this might have happened. Plans within plans within plans.

Until Dunkie came up and kicked the whole anthill down with his will.

That was my point - the Tir had some serious backing and funding when it declared independence, and I don't think all of it was from the immortals... But obviously it's just tossing guesses out there. Certainly it would have been difficult to pull off. But then, Bright-Eyes did have some serious pull, so...

Well, when you have a few centuries to prepare for something... You can get some serious pull going with the right bribes and blackmail to the right families.

Then again, can you really blackmail the Kennedy's with anything they haven't already been caught doing?

Well, other than pointing out how many "Book Depositories" there are around...

Except quebec has threatened to separate from Canada repeatedly, and the Native groups in quebec have indicated they would then separate from quebec, and rejoin Canada. IF the NAN thing were to somehow happen, Quebec would have been destroyed.

Maybe this is part of the reason I think the NAN fiction doesn't break my credulity, I live in a place with my wife and child that is changing from being under the Indian Act to their agreed upon implementation of their treaty. Things aren't so bad here and I have heard some visiting First Nation people's remark it is one of the most beautiful rezs they have been to - Don Burnstick said that IIRC and that comedian has visited a lot of rezs but he may have just been polite, it came across sincere however (first stand up comedian I ever got the pleasure of seeing live, it was awesome). People here are starting to no longer call it a Rez as well... And to top it off, I am some human mutt of various ethnicities that gets called 'white' and yet the people here have treated me better than most places that would be labelled 'white' communities. Some things are getting better here too, like improvements in water service / job creation, and have the possibility to improve more if there is the will. I have heard and read of similar stories elsewhere where First Nations are implementing their treaties. Still up in the air if I will be able apply for membership personally, not because I am hippy, but because I would want to have a larger part in building a better tomorrow for my lady love and our beautiful daughter by being able to vote for the local municipality/chief council. So, not perfect, probably never will be, that's life but there is still hope where it seemed like there was less so under the administration of a more distant policy makers and implementers.

So, colour me pleased when I found out from this thread the fictional nation of Salish-Shidhe, a member of the NAN, was one of the more tolerant nations in adoptive citizenship, it seems to fit close enough to my own IRL experience while still being ridiculous futuristic magic setting. So obviously, Your Mileage May Vary. Still dismays me when some seem to be under the impression it couldn't happen in this magical fictional setting when I see bits of it IRL and throughout bits and pieces of history. *shrug*

@Canadian Not sure about others, but for me the problem is not large areas breaking away, or even large areas breaking away as tribal groups. It is the 1% kicking out the 99% when the 99% has over 99% of the traditional power. Yes they didn't have magic, but from the rules given in SR magic does not trump technology. But as has been pointed out before I guess my problem is reading the fluff in the first place.

The Ghost Dance did. It can hardly be reproduced, but the anglos are not supposed to know that at the time. I think the original idea was to go for a reverse Hiroshima: a show of force so large and unexpected that it leaves no other issue but capitulation.

Also, I would not be so categoric about the traditional power held by the USA: according to the SR timeline the decline of nations starts in the 90s.

that would be a Hiroshima... perhaps a reverse would be a show of force so large that immediate and total annihilation of the aggressor is the only option.
or perhaps a show of goodwill so large and unexpected that it leaves no other option but capitulation.


From what was said in the fluff on the military power held by the USA they still by all expectations should have been able to mop the floor with NAN. As before I think ground forces were discounted far too much. I could maybe almost buy it if NAN would have been made up of almost everyone in their regions instead of a tiny part of the population.

None of the fluff I've read has said they didn't though.

bugger I guess I have to cite it....

Pointing me to which book would be fine, if that's easier =)

Well, I hope it is coming across somewhat that in the setting as has been outlined, its not simply a 1-5% vs 95-99% game. And sure, while magic is not an "I Win!" button, any shadowrunner worth their salt is going to know that a proper utilization of force at the right place at the right time can make a world of difference. And its not just magic either, its magic in conjunction with that era's tech in its political climate (which is pointed out as being divergent much earlier in the timeline than some give it credit for).

It kinda reminds me of this X-Files episode where a Vietnam US vet mysteriously comes back and starts taking out officials from that era as revenge at almost whim with some knew ability/skill he picked up while over there. I don't know why I thought of that, but it popped into mind when I thought of something magical and technical one vs many in other fiction. X-Files - Unrequited (1997)

Glad to know they were equal opportunity haters.

Yeah... tell me another one!

If you believe that the US got rid of all it's chemical and bio weapons, then you are more naïve than I would have expected on Dumpshock.

I believe that the US put all their chem/bio goodies in a hardened bunker somewhere really remote and kept them ready to be used.

Finally, the US would NOT have allowed the NAN to keep their nukes. Hell, I KNOW that no nation on Earth would allow a corporation to have THOR shot weapons. They would have destroyed them first. To think otherwise to take the same drugs that FASA was doing when they wrote that shit.

Whatever.

Well... Shadowrun History could never have let that Happen now could it?

Who said the Nations had a choice in the matter? I mean, someone had to manufacture the parts for the Thor Satelites.

Wouldn't take much to put a back-door into the firmware of a component or five and, bam, you're in the driver's seat.

What nations had the power to stop THOR shot weapons from being produced?

Another good point. Ares owns NASA, after all. And the Corporate Court is held on a space station. Also, it's not like Thor Shots are that complicated either. Directed bars of rock and metal, aren't they?

I've said it before; if there was a single piece of canon I wish I could wave away with my hands, Lone Eagle is it.

What, just because it starts the whole thing off or just 'cause of the "What the hell happened to the nuke?" aspect?

Yes, in the divers seat, and curiously enough the target of multiple A-sat missiles, then the signal is traced, corp assets are seized, employees either arrested, or expelled, and your head quarters is now a smoking hole in the ground.

Actually, because it's terrible PR for the SAIM, and my interpretation of the setting (hey, everybody tosses out some canon every now and then) largely rests on the NAN having to a great extent won the PR war, won at least the acquiescence of much of the ethnically non-Indian populace if not their support, which not only strikes me as more believable than simply cowing the hell out of everybody for sixty years (if it was force alone used to conquer or expel the bulk of the populace, once the UCAS got more magically capable they'd have just rolled the tanks back in, and you know what Al Capone used to say about a kind word and a gun), but has very different thematic ramifications (frankly, it guts any kind of empowerment theme from the thing when your rebel movement gets painted in the light of people trying to start a nuclear war, and it doesn't fit with the environmental, back-to-the-land stuff at all to be scarring the landscape with fallout and blast sites).

The "what happened to the nuke" is kind of a secondary concern, but only on the level of plot; it really doesn't have any thematic meaning where it went, so that's a bit more handwaveable.

Might work if the camp was on some undiscovered island which has not been visited by anybody in the last couple of centuries. But concentration camps have new inmates, new guards, new supplies and everything else coming in from the outside, and typically are close to traffic lines. And before you say "quarantine": The German KZs had a strict (and quite often homocidal) desinfection regime, keept new arrivals seperate from the old and everything else, because the aim was "destruction through labour" and not "death before we can exploit you". Still, typhus and other diseases ran rampant.


As far as ICMBs are concerned, the problem is what the rest of the world will do if you launch. Nuclear strategy does not give second chances, so how do you convice the Russians that these missiles are not aimed at them and they should not fire back? Even in our world this task is impossible to solve, which is why the talk about conventional ICMBs is a baaaaad idea, and we did not just have the Euro Wars where everybody got THIS close to pushing the red button.

What I would add to this topic about NAN is :

1- Native American are part of the american population. So for a lot of people their mistreatment then revolts are sound and justified, even thoses that have no native blood.

2- I think that a lot of Americans are uneasy about the way they rob/slaughter the indians initialy, and the way the corps and state mistreat nature. If you consider what the NAN have made of the West with their regenerative magic I think that this provide for a not small popular support of their action/secede.

3- Metahumans were welcomed in NAN, especially the ones that are the more shunned elsewhere : orks and trolls... And Orks are the fastest breeder of all the metahumanity. I wouldn't be surprised to know they make 50% of NAN population.

When their mandate was to force out all non native individuals, and they used a combination of an attempted nuclear attack, and an actualized instance of induced volcanic eruptions, threatening more, your popular support quickly evaporates from anyone not on the fringe.

According to SR canon, the POTUS publically announced a "genocide campaign" and this idea was passed into law in a normal legislative process...

Yep, it happened not long after NAN destroyed Los Alomos, and to be honest, would likely have been not too far off my reaction too.

I'll try my best to type correctly from now on.
Now, I know humor is hard to translate through a forum and that's why I used an emoticon to translate it as a joke.
but if you think about it, any population that feels opressed or getting the short stick might revolt against those they feel opress them if given the chance: France Revolution, Bolcheviks, Haitian Revolution, etc. So, it is not a matter of racism, it is the perception I have of how latin immigrants feel about US right now with the whole Arizona anti-immigration law and stuff.
If I hurt your sensibility about this, I'm truly sorry, but no need to be a jerk about my spelling though.

Hey, one extra 'n' is dangerous!

Using Chem or Bio weapons is suicide for an administration. We maybe, maybe could have gotten away with a nuke after 9/11, but in the Shadowrun political climate where the political leaders are loosing power, the enemy is at home, and corruption (with the attendant CYA attitudes it inspires) is rampant, makes the extreme reaction of using a nuke unlikely. Chem warfare has been even less politically acceptable for decades. Bio-warefare is a horror that has been proven to be nearly uncontrollable, Mr Tripps kills the entire world.


I beleive that we decided to go with Nukes because they were the most acceptable out of 3 truely horrendous choices and that the US confined its Chem and biowarefare research to defensive research.


Did you miss or just block out all of the economic considerations? I understand that the first inclination would be to go grab the nukes, but if you do not have the money to move or dismantle them, your choices are limited. The site with the home built in an abandoned silo is pretty cool. It just cost the government a fortune to decomission that missle.

According to Shadows of North America circa 2062, there are 19 millions non-humans in the NAN and Tir Tairngire, for 44 millions inhabitants. That's 43.2%. Remove the Tir from the math and you have 14.2 millions out of 39, or 36.5%.

Shouldn't Tir be mostly Elves?

Mostly Elves? I mean, do they even bother counting the other races? Well, Dragons, yes, but other than that...

Sorry, it should read 19 millions non-humans. The Tir indeed has a vast majority of elves. 81% of its 5 millions inhabitants are elves, only 4% are humans.

Talk about the power of expectation affecting your perceptions. I actually read that the first time as 'non-human'.

Once again, the NAN is a puzzle that doesn't fit together under scrutiny. There's a lot of that in SR canon. It's always just the big head scratcher because it relies on an increasingly improbable chain of events to make it work even under the loose constraints of internal reality that is the SR verse.

In order for the NAN to work you have to have the following.

1) The US and Canada need to be willing to cede the bulk of their territory without a serious fight.
2) They must be willing to endure WMD level attacks without even attempting to field a WMD counter.
3) Every single NAN/SAIM member needs to be a card carrying, spirits summoning magical badass who is ALSO a one man super soldier. They must have knowledge of a wide range of magical spells and phenomenon even though to date the signular canon attribution to them is weather control.
4) The population must sympathize wiith the NAN cause enough that they do not attempt to resist the relocation or the disenfranchisement perpetrated on them by less then 1 percent of the population. That less then one percent figure is actually pretty generous and assumes VITAS is a non-NAN killing miracle, no NAN died in the death camps etc etc.

In order for the NAN to be justified they have to.

1) The same population that sympathizes with them above must have been cool with them wiping out 10000 people at Los Alamos, depopulating signifigant areas near major volcanic sites.
2) They must have also accepted a legislatively passed extermination order against those of Native american blood.
3) The corporations who's power is supposedly ascendant must have been cool with signifigant chunks of the North American continent being declared a no go zone to them by the feather wearing Nazi's.

There's other stuff but basically in my mind the NAN always forms a three dimensional puzzle who's pieces just don't fit right. Further, to be frank one can easily see that capstone event being why the world, or at least the quality of life for so many in North America, went completely in the crapper. But the NAN's always get a pass because whitey had it coming or some other simplistic racist garbage.

Right, whatever Lurker. Feather wearing Nazis? I kinda find that offensive even if I understand the context you're using.

Yeah, only it was their enemy that had the Camps. That flips perception around a bit.

Hmmmmm lets see, killing 10,000 people in a single event, mass exodus of a few million others, picking a ruling elite based on a small select genetic potential and heritage, and willingness to end the world to achieve their goals. Yea there's completely no basis whatsoever for the comparison.

Honestly, no. Those things really don't describe the nazis very well.

Where's the Superscience that sneers at all other scien...

Oh, right, magic. Sorry. I'll just go sit back in my corner.

Hmm, that more sums up the start of every nation, ever.

So do they not teach history where you live? I use a bit of hyperbole in my nazi comparison but I'd love to hear the bit of nation building where less then .80% of a population forms a nation by conquest. Extra points if you can find me an example with no external support.