Just look at the Novels, Fluff and other and what are the native indians depicted in them.
You have true-blood indians, you have meta-humans that aren't indians at all but are accepted/form tribes (Cascade Orks, Tir Taingire (before split)) after all could you depict Ehrond, Glasxxx or the Red Haired professor as being typical native ?
There is also mixed blood, latino-indian, all aztlan population (hard to tell in the mexican who haven't a bit of indian blood). You also have the creation in one recent book of a korean-indian mafia. There is a novel that happens in indian canada where anglos doesnt sound like oppressed that much. There is also the time when Sam goes to find Coyote in the third novel that depict life in early NAN.
It is clear that all that is required is respect for nature, indians law and culture and a bit of dressing code adjustement.
Full Version: NAN Fading
QUOTE (Inca @ Sep 1 2010, 07:53 PM) 
Both those examples you gave are perfect analogies to what NAN did to the U.S....the only difference is that NAN didn't do it by ruthlessly slaughtering thousands.
Yep the destruction of Los Alomos and the eruption of all those volcanoes during the DDG occured without any loss of human life at all... Either that or they in fact DID "ruthlessly slaughter thousands."
QUOTE
Militia's would definitely go off quietly into the night. Because they are given a viable alternative....moving to the UCAS and living as full citizens...most likely getting a lot of disaster relief. All those militia's you see in michigan or in other parts of rural america are total pussies...as soon as you confronted them with any serious military resistance they'd piss their pants and go running....why? because they've lived a totally sheltered life and never gotten toughened up. They piss and moan about big government and then would freak out when the Xbox 360 stops working because the infrastructure is crumbling.
But militia's back by government troops working to save the US would totally stop the faces of the NAN, and likely kill them all to the a man. I seriously don't see how a massive boots to the ground assault, exterminating the NAN populations couldn't or didn't happen. When confronted by the unknown, humans have a wonderful tendency to react with fear, which then either transfers over to admiration, or the applications of mind numbing levels of violence.
QUOTE
The only group that are serious force to be reckoned with that aren't scared of anything is the U.S. Marines....but they would have to obey orders and their commander in chief signed the treaty of denver in order to ensure the survival of the nation.
Which never would have happened given that said commander and chief still had an army, and a bunch of rebels to throw it at.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 2 2010, 06:28 AM)
edit:
I just don't see the US or Canada giving up that much territory under threat, ever, especially not without mobilizing everyone person of fighting age to try and keep it.
I just don't see the US or Canada giving up that much territory under threat, ever, especially not without mobilizing everyone person of fighting age to try and keep it.
They did, they lost, they settle.
Several of the strikes were against military target, notably the Alamo one (someone earlier refered that the 20.000 loss account for 18.000 military personnals).
Of course you could have raised the National Guard... if the Guard still exist at this time and I am not sure it does, given that a large part of US residents are citizen of mega-corporation. But what would the Guard have done ? form a chain giving hands to hands and comb all of the States from East to West hoping not to be the one to found a nasty Bear spirit, tornado or volcano burst ?
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 1 2010, 11:42 PM)
They did, they lost, they settle.
Except they couldn't have.....
QUOTE
Several of the strikes were against military target, notably the Alamo one (someone earlier refered that the 20.000 loss account for 18.000 military personnals).
Which tends to get the other million plus soldiers in the US all the more ready to replace large fractions of your body with lead. I mean we all know the US military has never responded disproportionately to surprise attacks against is military or civilian populations centers in the past.....
QUOTE
Of course you could have raised the National Guard... if the Guard still exist at this time and I am not sure it does, given that a large part of US residents are citizen of mega-corporation. But what would the Guard have done ? form a chain giving hands to hands and comb all of the States from East to West hoping not to be the one to found a nasty Bear spirit, tornado or volcano burst ?
No, more like crop dust all the NAN reservations with equal parts Ebola, Anthrax and VX, then dig large holes to shove all the bodies in.
Arg...
SR US 20x is not real world US 20x.
Indians aren't in reserve since several years at the times we are talking, they fleed and disperse after the US botched the genocide job.
US military and politic is nothing like what they are now in terms of number, organisation or else. With the US being nearly bankrupted you can expect military budget to be very very low, especially with Megacorporation owning several parts of it.
Real world US military have proved how innadequate they are to track small numbers of men in deserted areas, I fail to see how much efficient they will be to track small numbers of men in friendly civilian areas (so no massive or indiscrimated bombing) wich have access to magic and meta-magic to conceal/charm/invis themselves.
SR US 20x is not real world US 20x.
Indians aren't in reserve since several years at the times we are talking, they fleed and disperse after the US botched the genocide job.
US military and politic is nothing like what they are now in terms of number, organisation or else. With the US being nearly bankrupted you can expect military budget to be very very low, especially with Megacorporation owning several parts of it.
Real world US military have proved how innadequate they are to track small numbers of men in deserted areas, I fail to see how much efficient they will be to track small numbers of men in friendly civilian areas (so no massive or indiscrimated bombing) wich have access to magic and meta-magic to conceal/charm/invis themselves.
Silly Mordinvan, they 'don't have' bioweapons.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 2 2010, 12:16 AM)
Silly Mordinvan, they 'don't have' bioweapons.
Oddly enough you only need about 2 shovel fulls of dirt from one of several parks in North America, and an incubator....
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Sep 2 2010, 12:14 AM)
Indians aren't in reserve since several years at the times we are talking, they fleed and disperse after the US botched the genocide job.
US military and politic is nothing like what they are now in terms of number, organisation or else. With the US being nearly bankrupted you can expect military budget to be very very low, especially with Megacorporation owning several parts of it.
Real world US military have proved how innadequate they are to track small numbers of men in deserted areas, I fail to see how much efficient they will be to track small numbers of men in friendly civilian areas (so no massive or indiscrimated bombing) wich have access to magic and meta-magic to conceal/charm/invis themselves.
US military and politic is nothing like what they are now in terms of number, organisation or else. With the US being nearly bankrupted you can expect military budget to be very very low, especially with Megacorporation owning several parts of it.
Real world US military have proved how innadequate they are to track small numbers of men in deserted areas, I fail to see how much efficient they will be to track small numbers of men in friendly civilian areas (so no massive or indiscrimated bombing) wich have access to magic and meta-magic to conceal/charm/invis themselves.
Los Alamose was the instigator for the attempted genocide, not the response to it.
As for tracking people down, the GGD was performed out in the wilderness, where satellites, spy planes, and missile laden drones would be waiting to say 'hello'. If they were in urban areas, after Los Alamose was destroyed, it would make rounding them up easier. Also in the atmosphere of 'fear' created by a city being wiped off the map, acceptable civilian casualties would be higher then one might otherwise allow. Also take into account the fact that unlike other wars where civilians are mixed in, this would be one where most of the civilians would rightfully fear, and possibly hate the party being hunted, and likely provide all the assistance they could to the military, and police to hunt down and capture/execute those who destroyed Los Alamose. The majority of the populace who might otherwise shield NAN have been told explicitly by the NAN they must vacate their homes, or be destroyed. This will kill any chance of having a meaningful amount of support from the local population centers.
Because I think it kind of applies here in this continued discussion about the plausibility or ridiculousness of the NAN ever happening in the first place (and/or about how more recent writers "should" handle it), here's a post I tossed up over on RPG.net the other day that sums up my feelings not only about the NAN but about some of the SR1 silliness in general:
QUOTE
The balkanization that occurred to make Shadowrun possible, way back in the first edition days, is perhaps one of the things that gets "overthought" more than anything else. Don't sprain your brain trying to make sense of Indians taking over most of the continent, the South rising again, the Northeast and Canada tying themselves together at the waist, CalFree as the whipping boy, Aztecs taking over most of South America, the Japanese resurgence in a neo-feudal tradition, Germany breaking back into a bunch of little mini-states, Tir Tairngire, etc, etc.
Attribute the breakup of nations to the rise of megacorps, and just let the Rule of Cool smooth over the rest; trying to make sense of it all now, twenty years after it was written -- or even worse, expecting the writers to do so -- defeats the purpose.
Love it for what it is, pure silliness. Everyone that had any sort of old stereotype suddenly got magical and lived up to it (Native Americans, South Americans, every East Asian nationality, the Irish, and on and on), and they tacked on, later with official Earthdawn links, old stereotypes for a few magical races (Elves), to boot. They turned back the clock on every ethnic group in the world until they hit something awesome and then they turned that flavor of awesome into a megacorp, a nation, or a hybrid of both.
Looking at it now, when we're all twenty years older and smarter, does it a disservice. Love it for the goofiness that it was, and have fun playing in their sandbox. Everything else is taking it too seriously.
Don't worry about why the yellow sun makes Superman do what he does (or why every other Kryptonian didn't book it to a yellow-sun galaxy instead of hanging out on a dying planet). Don't think about how crazy Batman has to be to prowl the nights (or about how weak Arkham Asylum must be to let his equally psychotic bad guys out time and again). Just read the comics and have fun, y'know? Make a leap of faith, willfully suspend your disbelief for a little bit, and enjoy the universe.
Attribute the breakup of nations to the rise of megacorps, and just let the Rule of Cool smooth over the rest; trying to make sense of it all now, twenty years after it was written -- or even worse, expecting the writers to do so -- defeats the purpose.
Love it for what it is, pure silliness. Everyone that had any sort of old stereotype suddenly got magical and lived up to it (Native Americans, South Americans, every East Asian nationality, the Irish, and on and on), and they tacked on, later with official Earthdawn links, old stereotypes for a few magical races (Elves), to boot. They turned back the clock on every ethnic group in the world until they hit something awesome and then they turned that flavor of awesome into a megacorp, a nation, or a hybrid of both.
Looking at it now, when we're all twenty years older and smarter, does it a disservice. Love it for the goofiness that it was, and have fun playing in their sandbox. Everything else is taking it too seriously.
Don't worry about why the yellow sun makes Superman do what he does (or why every other Kryptonian didn't book it to a yellow-sun galaxy instead of hanging out on a dying planet). Don't think about how crazy Batman has to be to prowl the nights (or about how weak Arkham Asylum must be to let his equally psychotic bad guys out time and again). Just read the comics and have fun, y'know? Make a leap of faith, willfully suspend your disbelief for a little bit, and enjoy the universe.
To deliver bio-weapons you need :
1- A political decision from higest level.
2- Weapons stocks
3- A vector to deliver it.
4- a target.
If you take into account the fact that NAN leader have magic (very powerfull magic indeed even for 2070) then :
1- You cant decide without them knowing as they have full intelligence of every decision at the highest military and political level by the way of Spirits, Invisibility and Mindprobe. They also already have assassinated a high ranking military officier. Wich mean it take major cojones to even evocate this solution and that NAN leader could initiate retaliation even before the orders are executed.
2- Spirits and Shaman could Sanitize bio-weapons with spells without the knowledge of the military. They could also simply choose to destroy them as soon as it is needed. There is no base they cant reach and no secret they dont know.
3- You cant deliver them by air because of the massive 'accident' suffered by airplanes, and you can expect that any base receiving the ordonnance would just get obliterated the way they have shown they can do it.
4- There is no Indian city, indian reservation, capital or major settlement you can know of you can target. The risk of collateral damage to own population is tremendous as rebels leaders and US population are inter-twinned. Also you are fairly aware that as soon as you dare a strike you will lose as they can unleash all their power at once on all the capitals, political and military decision centers instantly. Probably even in case of attempt to strike.
The US is not in position to ressort to large scale weaponary, bio or nuclear weapons. They are caught their pants down with the bazooka on the temple. Sure they can try to reach for their six-shooter but the big bad injun is daring them to do so "Do you think you can do it, punk ?"
1- A political decision from higest level.
2- Weapons stocks
3- A vector to deliver it.
4- a target.
If you take into account the fact that NAN leader have magic (very powerfull magic indeed even for 2070) then :
1- You cant decide without them knowing as they have full intelligence of every decision at the highest military and political level by the way of Spirits, Invisibility and Mindprobe. They also already have assassinated a high ranking military officier. Wich mean it take major cojones to even evocate this solution and that NAN leader could initiate retaliation even before the orders are executed.
2- Spirits and Shaman could Sanitize bio-weapons with spells without the knowledge of the military. They could also simply choose to destroy them as soon as it is needed. There is no base they cant reach and no secret they dont know.
3- You cant deliver them by air because of the massive 'accident' suffered by airplanes, and you can expect that any base receiving the ordonnance would just get obliterated the way they have shown they can do it.
4- There is no Indian city, indian reservation, capital or major settlement you can know of you can target. The risk of collateral damage to own population is tremendous as rebels leaders and US population are inter-twinned. Also you are fairly aware that as soon as you dare a strike you will lose as they can unleash all their power at once on all the capitals, political and military decision centers instantly. Probably even in case of attempt to strike.
The US is not in position to ressort to large scale weaponary, bio or nuclear weapons. They are caught their pants down with the bazooka on the temple. Sure they can try to reach for their six-shooter but the big bad injun is daring them to do so "Do you think you can do it, punk ?"
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 2 2010, 12:39 AM)
Los Alamose was the instigator for the attempted genocide, not the response to it.
As for tracking people down, the GGD was performed out in the wilderness, where satellites, spy planes, and missile laden drones would be waiting to say 'hello'. If they were in urban areas, after Los Alamose was destroyed, it would make rounding them up easier. Also in the atmosphere of 'fear' created by a city being wiped off the map, acceptable civilian casualties would be higher then one might otherwise allow. Also take into account the fact that unlike other wars where civilians are mixed in, this would be one where most of the civilians would rightfully fear, and possibly hate the party being hunted, and likely provide all the assistance they could to the military, and police to hunt down and capture/execute those who destroyed Los Alamose. The majority of the populace who might otherwise shield NAN have been told explicitly by the NAN they must vacate their homes, or be destroyed. This will kill any chance of having a meaningful amount of support from the local population centers.
As for tracking people down, the GGD was performed out in the wilderness, where satellites, spy planes, and missile laden drones would be waiting to say 'hello'. If they were in urban areas, after Los Alamose was destroyed, it would make rounding them up easier. Also in the atmosphere of 'fear' created by a city being wiped off the map, acceptable civilian casualties would be higher then one might otherwise allow. Also take into account the fact that unlike other wars where civilians are mixed in, this would be one where most of the civilians would rightfully fear, and possibly hate the party being hunted, and likely provide all the assistance they could to the military, and police to hunt down and capture/execute those who destroyed Los Alamose. The majority of the populace who might otherwise shield NAN have been told explicitly by the NAN they must vacate their homes, or be destroyed. This will kill any chance of having a meaningful amount of support from the local population centers.
NO. This time you're flat out WRONG, Mord. The thing that caused the Genocide was the Lone Eagle incident. That's where they rounded up everyone and dumped them into the camps. Yes, there was the flat out "just start killing everyone", but the first genocide was already happening in 2011.
You know what? I don't think it really matters, does it? We could come up with every single justification, any story or idea or minor idea that could possibly fix things and you'd just go "nuh uh, the US'd kill everyone! We're too damn awesome for that!" I'm getting tired of this. It's a freaking game, Mord. Sometimes it doesn't have to make perfect sense. You can play your version of Shadowrun where the NAN doesn't exist, knock yourself out.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Sep 2 2010, 07:39 AM)
Los Alamose was the instigator for the attempted genocide, not the response to it.
2009: Lone Eagle incident - start of indian concentration/reeducation center.
2014: Daniel Coyote announce formation of the NAN
2015: Aztlan formation
2016 : Los Alamos start of the indian-USA war.
2017 : Great Ghost dance
2018 : Treaty of Denver.
Gets your chronology right. Lone Eagle start the genocide, Los Alamos start the payback time.
QUOTE (Megu @ Sep 2 2010, 05:30 AM)
Grinder's totally bluffing dude 
No.
QUOTE
PEOPLE. PLEASE DON'T GET A 30+ PAGE LOCKED BY CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE FRIENDLY MODERATOR.
Folks should have listened to you.
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