Full Version: NAN Fading
Didn't the Spaniards do something similar in South America?
That's an interesting question and I mean that in all seriousness.
Both the Spanish conquistadors(hey cool Firefox knows how to spell that) in South America and also the British in China were able to accomplish military goals with a relatively small force by having superior technology and tactics. They also benefited by playing off the local political situation and the general lack of communications infrastructure between large swaths of the territory they were running rougshod through. There really isn't a comparison though with a small group like the NAN many of whom would presumably not be professional soldiers fighting against an enemy with modern communications methods.
Further both cases were backed by a parent nation with signifigant population and infrastructure.
Both the Spanish conquistadors(hey cool Firefox knows how to spell that) in South America and also the British in China were able to accomplish military goals with a relatively small force by having superior technology and tactics. They also benefited by playing off the local political situation and the general lack of communications infrastructure between large swaths of the territory they were running rougshod through. There really isn't a comparison though with a small group like the NAN many of whom would presumably not be professional soldiers fighting against an enemy with modern communications methods.
Further both cases were backed by a parent nation with signifigant population and infrastructure.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2010, 06:26 PM) 
So do they not teach history where you live? I use a bit of hyperbole in my nazi comparison but I'd love to hear the bit of nation building where less then .80% of a population forms a nation by conquest. Extra points if you can find me an example with no external support.
Setting aside hyperbole, and going to the logical roots of your statements, the number of nations that start by:
1. Killing a large number of people
2. Forcing even larger numbers of people out of their homes
3. Setting up a ruling elite based by racial/ethnic/national backgrounds
4. Willingness to go to extreme lengths
seems pretty high to me. Though I guess a decently large percentage settle for replacing step two with "enslaving the existing population" instead.
If you really need examples, I can give you a whole bunch - no extra credit though, sadly I'll have a lot of external sources.
Well, communications can bite both ways.
"Order, counterorder, confusion" after all. And communication systems can be interfered with with a little bit of work by guerillas, who don't need as much training other than sneaking into locations and pulling off a few precise shots with a rifle. Not exactly something that's hard to believe possible for Native Americans who grew up in rural areas. (I mean, I bet there's a bunch of Northern Rednecks that could do something similar back home.).
"Order, counterorder, confusion" after all. And communication systems can be interfered with with a little bit of work by guerillas, who don't need as much training other than sneaking into locations and pulling off a few precise shots with a rifle. Not exactly something that's hard to believe possible for Native Americans who grew up in rural areas. (I mean, I bet there's a bunch of Northern Rednecks that could do something similar back home.).
@CanRay: The Spanish did in fact conquer the Aztecs in Mesoamerica very quickly, in a matter of a couple of years, with just a few hundred Spanish soldiers. But they had a little help from the tens of thousands of local peoples eager to throw off the yolk of Aztec oppression and a few bajillion germs and viruses for which the Mesoamericans had no resistance. Throw in the cool technology the Spanish had, and it was curtains for the Empire. The most important factor was disease. Also, the conquest was basically cutting off the Aztec head of an imperial tribute machine and replacing it with a Spanish one. Later, as more and more Spaniards came to fill in the blanks left by plague-induced mass deaths, they themselves were an unstoppable force.
It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.
It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.
It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.
It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 26 2010, 07:45 PM)
@CanRay: The Spanish did in fact conquer the Aztecs in Mesoamerica very quickly, in a matter of a couple of years, with just a few hundred Spanish soldiers. But they had a little help from the tens of thousands of local peoples eager to throw off the yolk of Aztec oppression and a few bajillion germs and viruses for which the Mesoamericans had no resistance. Throw in the cool technology the Spanish had, and it was curtains for the Empire. The most important factor was disease. Also, the conquest was basically cutting off the Aztec head of an imperial tribute machine and replacing it with a Spanish one. Later, as more and more Spaniards came to fill in the blanks left by plague-induced mass deaths, they themselves were an unstoppable force.
It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.
It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.
It took thirty years to do in the Incas in South America, because of the vast area of the empire, and the infrastructure they had built over the course of a hundred years that allowed insurrections to supply themselves from storehouses throughout the Inca empire. Same factors helped the Spanish there too. In fact there the disease factor preceded them, killing perhaps the best warrior emperor they ever had, and his firstborn son groomed to take over. The Spanish arrived on the shores of a divided empire at the end of a civil war between two younger sons, neither of whom had ever had much experience or training in empire building.
It took the Spanish roughly two hundred years to get the last of the Maya under control, because of the perniciously difficult terrain they lived in and because they were not organized into a single massive cultural unit, but many smaller ones, which had to be taken on individually.
Yep, that sums it up quite nicely (glad I checked before posting my long-winded description^^)
As I mentioned earlier, even the most conservative estimates put the death rate from the Euro diseases at >75%.
Now, if only I had said "yoke" and not "yolk", I wouldn't have egg on my face.
And by the way Lurker, yes they do teach history where I come from. In fact, let me check my wall.. Oh yeah, History degree.
Considering Nazi Germany set things up through selective predation on the will of the people, turning them against a minority in their own country, initially getting elected to the legislature, appointed by the ruling class and only started expanding to other countries where they claimed there was already an existing historical precedence for their being there and then after that beginning to prey on traditional enemies...
.
Yeah, there's a REAL big comparison between the setup of the NAN and the Third Reich.
Considering Nazi Germany set things up through selective predation on the will of the people, turning them against a minority in their own country, initially getting elected to the legislature, appointed by the ruling class and only started expanding to other countries where they claimed there was already an existing historical precedence for their being there and then after that beginning to prey on traditional enemies...
.
Yeah, there's a REAL big comparison between the setup of the NAN and the Third Reich.
I agree with Mooncrow: basically every nation ever.
Well, Sealand.
No, wait, that falls under "Willingness to go to extreme lengths". I mean, fighting the British Navy certainly applies. Even if they did win.
No, wait, that falls under "Willingness to go to extreme lengths". I mean, fighting the British Navy certainly applies. Even if they did win.
Feather wearing Nazis... I think this thread just ended since someone just had to invoke Godwin.
Hm, given how well people in America like..well...other people in America, who's to say a given population wouldn't pick a side and think splitting away would be a good idea? Of course, part of the thing that they didn't anticipate was just because you sided with 'the resistance' doesn't mean they'd continue to side with you when the dust settled. Yeah! Down with the man! Down with all his cronies and...wait...what do you mean I'm a crony of the man and have to leave, but...I helped you!
This fracturing led to even further fracturing in the 30s when the US went UCAS then went CAS. But you look at current setups, and you can see the cracks are here now, if it were a realistic option and if the ones doing all such talk weren't actually chickenshits, there might actually be another 'north/south' split.
Heh, also considering this is a necro'd thread, its funny to see its been godwin law'd twice now
Both times by you Lurker! 
This fracturing led to even further fracturing in the 30s when the US went UCAS then went CAS. But you look at current setups, and you can see the cracks are here now, if it were a realistic option and if the ones doing all such talk weren't actually chickenshits, there might actually be another 'north/south' split.
Heh, also considering this is a necro'd thread, its funny to see its been godwin law'd twice now
Both times by you Lurker!
QUOTE (Acme @ Aug 26 2010, 04:04 PM)
Right, whatever Lurker. Feather wearing Nazis? I kinda find that offensive even if I understand the context you're using.
Well when >2% of the population wants to kick the other 98% out, and HAS used WMD's....
While comparing the NAN to the Spanish conquest of Messyco and South America is riddled with flaws, it does bring up one of the classic fluff blunders in Shadowrun. Why, if the formation of Aztlan was supposed to take Mexico back to it's pre-Spanish roots, are the Aztlaners of Spanish descent still socially superior to the Mesos? The book never even addresses it, and usually there's at least a snarky comment from one of the Shadowland posters in the added comments for discrepancies like that.
I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.
And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.
I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.
And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.
Hokay so in the interest of bringing the thread to a close, again:
Is the NAN fading? Yes, the NAN like so much else about Shadowrun, and any other media that's more then about ten years is showing it's age. When it started white guys were evil, the Japanese were going to take over EVERYTHING, and you used three cans of hairspray on your hair if you were a dude and it was accepted. You wore leather and the MAN was keeping you down. The thought of a computer the size of a full on musical keyboard that could do VR was pretty amazing.
But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.
So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.
Is the NAN fading? Yes, the NAN like so much else about Shadowrun, and any other media that's more then about ten years is showing it's age. When it started white guys were evil, the Japanese were going to take over EVERYTHING, and you used three cans of hairspray on your hair if you were a dude and it was accepted. You wore leather and the MAN was keeping you down. The thought of a computer the size of a full on musical keyboard that could do VR was pretty amazing.
But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.
So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 26 2010, 11:01 PM)
While comparing the NAN to the Spanish conquest of Messyco and South America is riddled with flaws, it does bring up one of the classic fluff blunders in Shadowrun. Why, if the formation of Aztlan was supposed to take Mexico back to it's pre-Spanish roots, are the Aztlaners of Spanish descent still socially superior to the Mesos? The book never even addresses it, and usually there's at least a snarky comment from one of the Shadowland posters in the added comments for discrepancies like that.
I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.
And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.
I mean, the obvious answer is hypocrisy. The world is full of it, and of people willing to ignore it for their own gain. But an interesting thing to think about. Especially given how entrenched the Aztlaners are with Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters. You'd think some of them would have something to say about the continued racism against those with the most actual native heritage.
And comparing the NAN to Nazis is flawed too. However, he does bring up several excellent points about the pretty unchecked brutality the NAN used to attain their independence. Almost makes the white man's original expansion look tame.
I've always assumed that the "Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters" didn't actually give a crap who was running things and it was easier to keep the changes as few as possible. Given the history of the "Aztec" religion, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. Some fluff would be nice, but then that would mean actually revealing who's really behind the curtain in Aztlan.
"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug
edit: It is a stretch as written for NAN to have happened, no question. So you can:
A. Ignore it
B. Keep it as written and cringe a little when it gets brought up
C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible
Personally, I like the concept of NAN and Amazonia being around, so I go with C. But YMMV, of course.
Well, I didn't quite bring up LE being stupid but meh.
As for Aztlan- I actually always assumed that it WAS hypocrisy in action, that the whole bringing up the Aztec thing was just a way of control and the ability to use the blood magic to help further Aztechnology's goals. Though in the Aztlan book there is a blurb in there that
And I agree, Mooncrow. YMMV. Have your own opinions on the subject, but it's probably not gonna get written out of the actual books. There are quite a few things in the books that hinge on the NAN's existence (Aztlan, Denver's permanent Berlin-esque setting, Horizon's existence with the PPC takeover of LA, Seattle's prominence because of it being the only Pacific port, etc...) so *shrug* there we go.
To actually answer the original question of whether they're fading? I don't think so. I don't think they're getting a huge amount of prominence lately only 'cause the writers are focusing so much more globally so they can't spend that much time on just one place. Hell, when was the last time either Tir got that much face time? Hell, it took forever to finally get any mention of Australia and since then they've just been ignored. And with the death of Target: Latin America, it took till 6WA and Ghost Cartels for Amazonia to get anything even though they're this year's campaign with War coming up.
I think things are being shifted around with Tsimshian and Ute's ending, but there are still enough points that keep the NAN at least simmering. Brackhaven's ascendancy possibly causing troubles with S-S, the rise of the Koshare syndicate, PCC having issues with still swallowing LA (and the upcoming problems hinted at with Aztech forcing their allowance which may piss the ever loving hell out of GW if they get into PCC's sector), and the like. Some countries aren't getting that much talk since A-M has always been quiet ('cept for the False Face Society in Threats 2), the Sioux have always been kinda there though you always hear of the Wildcats and Truth Dancers, and TPA doesn't even really count since they ate Iceland and Lapland and the only real major writeup they ever had was in Target:Wastelands.
As for Aztlan- I actually always assumed that it WAS hypocrisy in action, that the whole bringing up the Aztec thing was just a way of control and the ability to use the blood magic to help further Aztechnology's goals. Though in the Aztlan book there is a blurb in there that
And I agree, Mooncrow. YMMV. Have your own opinions on the subject, but it's probably not gonna get written out of the actual books. There are quite a few things in the books that hinge on the NAN's existence (Aztlan, Denver's permanent Berlin-esque setting, Horizon's existence with the PPC takeover of LA, Seattle's prominence because of it being the only Pacific port, etc...) so *shrug* there we go.
To actually answer the original question of whether they're fading? I don't think so. I don't think they're getting a huge amount of prominence lately only 'cause the writers are focusing so much more globally so they can't spend that much time on just one place. Hell, when was the last time either Tir got that much face time? Hell, it took forever to finally get any mention of Australia and since then they've just been ignored. And with the death of Target: Latin America, it took till 6WA and Ghost Cartels for Amazonia to get anything even though they're this year's campaign with War coming up.
I think things are being shifted around with Tsimshian and Ute's ending, but there are still enough points that keep the NAN at least simmering. Brackhaven's ascendancy possibly causing troubles with S-S, the rise of the Koshare syndicate, PCC having issues with still swallowing LA (and the upcoming problems hinted at with Aztech forcing their allowance which may piss the ever loving hell out of GW if they get into PCC's sector), and the like. Some countries aren't getting that much talk since A-M has always been quiet ('cept for the False Face Society in Threats 2), the Sioux have always been kinda there though you always hear of the Wildcats and Truth Dancers, and TPA doesn't even really count since they ate Iceland and Lapland and the only real major writeup they ever had was in Target:Wastelands.
The NAN "fading" in the storyline is a function of setting concatenation -- it appears the line developers latched on pretty hard to the idea of setting hotspots (Target: X) and everything else is flyover country between Seattle and the hotspot. One of those influence maps with region area multiplied by percentage of material published on it would be hilarious as Seattle would cover most of the globe.
That's not necessarily a big issue given the entire stock of Shadowrun material (CP2020 did just fine primarily focused on Night City, for example) but the realtime advancing storyline exacerbates disconnects. They must not get much negative feedback on the issue though - lots of people have a hate-on for the NAN for various reasons. unfortunate, as the NAN is also the source of some of the coolest Threats in the game (in my not-so-humble opinion).
I for one would welcome our Target: Native American Nations overlords if that ever was announced, though.
That's not necessarily a big issue given the entire stock of Shadowrun material (CP2020 did just fine primarily focused on Night City, for example) but the realtime advancing storyline exacerbates disconnects. They must not get much negative feedback on the issue though - lots of people have a hate-on for the NAN for various reasons. unfortunate, as the NAN is also the source of some of the coolest Threats in the game (in my not-so-humble opinion).
I for one would welcome our Target: Native American Nations overlords if that ever was announced, though.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 11:13 PM)
I've always assumed that the "Aztec spirits and ancient metacritters" didn't actually give a crap who was running things and it was easier to keep the changes as few as possible. Given the history of the "Aztec" religion, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. Some fluff would be nice, but then that would mean actually revealing who's really behind the curtain in Aztlan.
"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug
edit: It is a stretch as written for NAN to have happened, no question. So you can:
A. Ignore it
B. Keep it as written and cringe a little when it gets brought up
C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible
Personally, I like the concept of NAN and Amazonia being around, so I go with C. But YMMV, of course.
"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug
edit: It is a stretch as written for NAN to have happened, no question. So you can:
A. Ignore it
B. Keep it as written and cringe a little when it gets brought up
C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible
Personally, I like the concept of NAN and Amazonia being around, so I go with C. But YMMV, of course.
This is pretty much my take in a nutshell. Option C please.
Meh, I'll select D. Deal with it.
Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.
Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.
QUOTE (Acme @ Aug 27 2010, 01:08 AM)
Meh, I'll select D. Deal with it.
Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.
Since I don't cringe when it gets brought up, I only cringe a statements like the ones Lurker makes. It works for me for my interpretation of how it was already written.
To each their own I guess, I just can't find something like that plausible enough to include in the game.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 26 2010, 11:50 AM)
Yep, it happened not long after NAN destroyed Los Alomos,
And more importantly, the govt was fighting a losing war for its own home, that tends to make people nervous
QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 27 2010, 06:17 AM)
And more importantly, the govt was fighting a losing war for its own home, that tends to make people nervous
Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war. At best Nan would have had something like 30k awakened grand total, and of that, I think something like 3k mages. The US armed forces has as many soldiers as NAN as total population. Even without magic at all the army would simply crush them there sheer numbers, and we all know that the US army is perfectly happy to expend a 25 thousand bullets to hit one enemy soldier. I just don't see NAN being able to win a ground war.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 27 2010, 07:55 AM)
Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war.
Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 27 2010, 02:14 PM)
Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars.
Actually it does
The US won the majority of all battles in Vietnam.
The US crushed Iraq twice.
Without getting into the politics of whether Iraq was good or bad.
The US Military is just hopeless at winning hearts and minds.. and so they eventually lose the important part of the war. But the physical battles? the US Military is still quite good at those.
I'm still not sure how 30,000 awakeneds held off an army of over 1million trained professionals who would have been more than willing to send overwhelming force.
Unless the NAN was bringing volcanos up and wiping out entire regiments at once.
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 26 2010, 08:48 PM)
This fracturing led to even further fracturing in the 30s when the US went UCAS then went CAS. But you look at current setups, and you can see the cracks are here now, if it were a realistic option and if the ones doing all such talk weren't actually chickenshits, there might actually be another 'north/south' split.
Case in point ranchers and farmers about water and federal land use rights. It is a sore point for many of them with the US Federal government. Add to it the effects of the resource rush allowing the big corp to take the land and pollute it the area around, thereby threatening their lively hood. End result, who are they going to side with? And IIRCC many anglo's could claim indian blood even if there was just the barest hint native american blood in their geneology. Meta's were accepted (til the Tir), and finally their pinkskin sympathizers were given an exemption (varied from tribe to tribe though and in some NAN nations like UTE they were 2nd class citizens..
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 27 2010, 07:06 AM)
Case in point ranchers and farmers about water and federal land use rights. It is a sore point for many of them with the US Federal government. Add to it the effects of the resource rush allowing the big corp to take the land and pollute it the area around, thereby threatening their lively hood. End result, who are they going to side with? And IIRCC many anglo's could claim indian blood even if there was just the barest hint native american blood in their geneology. Meta's were accepted (til the Tir), and finally their pinkskin sympathizers were given an exemption (varied from tribe to tribe though and in some NAN nations like UTE they were 2nd class citizens..
I just don't see them having the needed popular, or material support needed to pull that off. They would have lost huge levels of support for a) destroying Los Alamos b) Threatening to do it again c) demanding the entire continent back, d) threatening to displace 200+ million people.
Each one of those would strip away any level of popular support they would have had, and combined even the moderates of the NAN themselves would likely accuse them of going too far and rebel from within their own ranks, because they know the level of hell that sort of behavior tends to attract.
Remember how
a) Americans react to threats
b) Americans get all worked up about "Their way of life" "Their Country"
Just look at the current rhetoric in politics. Look at the NYC Mosque debate/argument.
Now instead of 9/11 and a bunch of Islamic Extremist Terrorists. You have Los Alamos and Native American Indians.
I try not to think too much about the whole NAN thing, because it makes no sense. But, if you're going to actually poke at it and try to figure out how it ticked. There's some big issues.
Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.
a) Americans react to threats
b) Americans get all worked up about "Their way of life" "Their Country"
Just look at the current rhetoric in politics. Look at the NYC Mosque debate/argument.
Now instead of 9/11 and a bunch of Islamic Extremist Terrorists. You have Los Alamos and Native American Indians.
I try not to think too much about the whole NAN thing, because it makes no sense. But, if you're going to actually poke at it and try to figure out how it ticked. There's some big issues.
Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 27 2010, 10:41 AM)
I just don't see them having the needed popular, or material support needed to pull that off. They would have lost huge levels of support for a) destroying Los Alamos b) Threatening to do it again c) demanding the entire continent back, d) threatening to displace 200+ million people.
Each one of those would strip away any level of popular support they would have had, and combined even the moderates of the NAN themselves would likely accuse them of going too far and rebel from within their own ranks, because they know the level of hell that sort of behavior tends to attract.
Each one of those would strip away any level of popular support they would have had, and combined even the moderates of the NAN themselves would likely accuse them of going too far and rebel from within their own ranks, because they know the level of hell that sort of behavior tends to attract.
There is a lot of resentment in these "flyover states" regarding the Federal government. Especially in the rural areas. So to them Los Alamos is detroyed by magic, big deal, the feds got their come uppance. Yeah they may want the entire continent back, but that is not going to happen (it the difference between rhetoric and facts on the ground). Case in point, if you took all of Iran's threats against its neighbors as fact, they would be a smoking crater right now.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 27 2010, 10:48 AM)
Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.
It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 27 2010, 03:56 PM)
It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).
Yeah
That does cause a problem.. for some.
But people treated blacks this way for over a 100 years after the Civil War. And in some places, it hasn't gotten a heck of a lot better.
Well, but Bob was alright folks..but he was part Injun.. and them folks are weird. They got this weird magic now too. That's just not Christian.
Don't underestimate our ability to rationalize prejudice. We're good at it.
It's not that I got something against them injuns.. but you know.. They're shifty fellas with all that magic.
I'm just saying that I don't buy an Oklahoma farmer siding with the NAN. Maybe in New Mexico/Arizona.. but having seen how they treat the reservations down down. I kind of doubt it.
Would some? Absolutely. But enough to make a difference? When the NAN has crazy rhetoric and is threatening basically a war of destruction?
There is 1 thing the fly over states are proud of. It's being Americans. USA #1, even if they aren't fond of the Fed Government.
*sigh*
Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?
Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?
Because it's a blindspot due to their beliefs. We all have them in one thing or another.
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 27 2010, 04:15 PM)
*sigh*
Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?
Why is it some people are so, so, bad at even realizing when they're making inflammatory political statements?
Who says they don't realize it.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 27 2010, 11:18 AM)
Who says they don't realize it.
Well, if you DO realize you're making inflammatory political statements, maybe you need to take a gander at the ToS of the board and stop doing it.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Aug 27 2010, 01:55 PM)
Problem is, I don't think anyone can explain why it was a losing war.
Nor will there ever be a better explaination than "the plot says so". In real life terms it would be totally impossible, but in the Shadowrun universe it's an axiom, just like the existence of magic.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 27 2010, 03:56 PM)
It doesn't mean that he won't either. Keep in mind Bob, his neighbor ofthe last 20 years was dragged off to an intenment camp for having 5% Sioux blood in him (for Bob's protection).
Don't worry, we have plenty of evidence that he was supporting them communist injun nazis. And I'm sure you as a patriot understand that showing this evidence would jeopardize national security and put the lives of our brave soldiers at risk...
After a couple of years Bob's neighbour might find an upstanding judge who throws that bit of hearsay out of the window, in which case the government will simply "find" evidence against Bob and do some enhanced interrogation on him till he implicates the guy they originally arrested. The tried and true ponzi scheme of torture
"ToS, like those apply to ME! I'm right !"
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 27 2010, 10:49 AM)
Unless the NAN was bringing volcanos up and wiping out entire regiments at once.
Well, they did bring hurricanes to air bases if I recall my fluff correctly.
Bringing small earth tremors and flood could be doable to break military infra-structure. If I'm talking non-sense, please point it out.
Now, I believe that ICBM's bases would be in places far from tectonic activity to protect the silos, right? I mean, the silos wouldn't be designed with the kind of protection from earthquakes, right? If the NAN were able to provoke earthquakes strong enough to cripple these bases, then the US wouldn't be able to strike back with nukes (not that they would actually do it, but if after the Ghost Dance they thought that the only way to keep the country unified would be to nuke the crap out of, let's say, Arizona for instance, because that's where the NAN main base is located, they could consider it an option).
So, after having their nuke silos disabled and being the target of a spell that created volcanos all around the country, well, better lose half than the whle thing, right?
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 27 2010, 08:14 AM)
Yeah, because the US has such a good track record since Vietnam in it's wars.
Even ignoring the innacuracies of that statement their win/loss record against Indians and native insurrections is amazing. I think a Vietnam comparison could be made but not for the side you think.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Aug 26 2010, 08:13 PM)
"Unchecked brutality" seems a strong word to use; I'm not claiming it was all happiness and rainbows, but there was some pretty heavy provocation (though I agree with Acme that the Lone Eagle thing is dumb, but w/e), and while they took some pretty extreme steps to get out of the prison camps and get a place of their own, I don't see much violence for violence's sake. /shrug
Killing 20,000 people for the sake of making a point isn't a statement, that insane. I mean, there's no sense trying to explain that one away. 9/11 got Americas whipped up into a frenzy as it was. You wouldn't have even needed internment camps after that. People would have been happy to start killing Native Americans in the streets.Remember, these were the same NAs that had almost started WW3 with the launch of a nuclear missile. It's entirely likely that the average American would assume the NAs were getting exactly what they had coming to them. And the Treaty of Denver was just a plan hashed out by governments to redraw lines. If post colonial Africa teaches us anything, it is that lines on a map drawn by people far away mean very little to the people who have been living in an area longer than they can remember. The Native Americans most likely would have had to deal with armed resistance from all sorts of resistant native Americans. Which means one of two things: Continued genocides against a civilian populace, or a costly insurgency. And while Americans are not quite as ready to die as the average jihadi (one thing you can respect those crazy fucks for is their tenacity and dedication), I am not fully convinced it is all talk either. Some crazy people come out of the flyover states.
It's all irrelevant anyway. Like I've said before, FASA probably found itself saddled with all these ideas that they published in 1e and didn't really think enough about until later. Kinda hard to go back and retcon Tir Tairngire and the NAN and Aztlan, etc to something that makes more sense.
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 27 2010, 07:48 AM)
Just because some American Rancher wants to blow up the IRS and hates the US Federal Government, does not mean he's going to side with a bunch of Terrorist Native Americans.
You say "Terrorist", I say "Freedom Fighter".
<_< >_>
I find the 1% of population figure in the US IRL (Canada is higher IIRC) interesting as well, that is within a very narrow stricture of what it means to be descended from a North American native tribe, because if you get right down to it genetically they are descended from Asiatic thanks to Pacific and land bridge venturing tribes and even some European descent on the eastern side due to Vikings and the others. So just what genetic markers are used are never quite clarified, its open to interpretation and can be used to be both inclusive and exclusive. And still others aren't even using genetic markers but only using genealogy, which is based on incomplete records due to past practices of not everyone getting a accurate birth certificate (or one at all) or natural causes ruining records where they are stored (fires, floods, mold, vermin, etc) - heck, dig back far enough in American genealogy and you are using church records, not federal, state, municipal or hospital records, so not a church goer or your community doesn't even have one there isn't much recorded on you as an ancestor. Genetics would probably even reveal to some that they had NAN ancestry when the family stories happened to leave that out, much to their chagrin in the start of the 6th world. "Natives could look like or be anyone... Due your duty as an American citizen, report anyone you suspect of being or aiding SAIM today!" How convenient for the feds.
And the 1% of population figure for those with any magic is also a interesting thing as well, since I take it is in regards to world wide population. This doesn't indicate distribution among regions though and doesn't even get into the margin for statistical error (+/- how much % exactly). How long have census records been kept on this stuff anyway, especially considering the upheavals that were kicked off in this setting, record keeping may not even have been accurate but rather made educated guesses at. And considering also how we always seem to remark there is an awful lot of magic in the shadows of our setting, what do you think the chances are everyone answered their census truthfully? Or even at all given all the SINless? And how many times has the ubiquitous Matrix versions crashed now, taking with it all kinds of SIN related stuff?
And that is before you have shadowtalk casting doubt on all kinds of official stories.
Yeah, you are definitely on shaky ground with those numbers if that is what has you convinced the NAN are just "impossible" in the 6th world. So, given how our setting is presented to us even through shadow sources, I am going to have to go with option C "C. Make selective edits and/or insertions so it seems more plausible".
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 27 2010, 07:53 AM)
There is a lot of resentment in these "flyover states" regarding the Federal government. Especially in the rural areas. So to them Los Alamos is detroyed by magic, big deal, the feds got their come uppance. Yeah they may want the entire continent back, but that is not going to happen (it the difference between rhetoric and facts on the ground). Case in point, if you took all of Iran's threats against its neighbors as fact, they would be a smoking crater right now.
Except in this case, the NAN actually mean it, and I'm not sure if you know this, but most of the people you're saying hate the government, have this tendency to hate people blowing up their country even more.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 27 2010, 08:39 AM)
Well, they did bring hurricanes to air bases if I recall my fluff correctly.
Bringing small earth tremors and flood could be doable to break military infra-structure. If I'm talking non-sense, please point it out.
Now, I believe that ICBM's bases would be in places far from tectonic activity to protect the silos, right? I mean, the silos wouldn't be designed with the kind of protection from earthquakes, right? If the NAN were able to provoke earthquakes strong enough to cripple these bases, then the US wouldn't be able to strike back with nukes (not that they would actually do it, but if after the Ghost Dance they thought that the only way to keep the country unified would be to nuke the crap out of, let's say, Arizona for instance, because that's where the NAN main base is located, they could consider it an option).
So, after having their nuke silos disabled and being the target of a spell that created volcanos all around the country, well, better lose half than the whle thing, right?
Bringing small earth tremors and flood could be doable to break military infra-structure. If I'm talking non-sense, please point it out.
Now, I believe that ICBM's bases would be in places far from tectonic activity to protect the silos, right? I mean, the silos wouldn't be designed with the kind of protection from earthquakes, right? If the NAN were able to provoke earthquakes strong enough to cripple these bases, then the US wouldn't be able to strike back with nukes (not that they would actually do it, but if after the Ghost Dance they thought that the only way to keep the country unified would be to nuke the crap out of, let's say, Arizona for instance, because that's where the NAN main base is located, they could consider it an option).
So, after having their nuke silos disabled and being the target of a spell that created volcanos all around the country, well, better lose half than the whle thing, right?
You go in on foot with a million+ soldiers, and put a bullet or 10 into every living thing that looks even remotely suspicious.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2010, 10:11 PM)
Hokay so in the interest of bringing the thread to a close, again:
But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.
So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.
But it didn't age well and is somewhat embarrassing. Because when you get right down to brass tacks the Ghost Dance War is pretty horrific at least to a guy living in Omaha who has seen just enough death, destruction, and displaced people abroad that he never wants to see that come here. Further I can't rationalize 1% of the population subjugating the other 99% even if I'm a member of that part of the population. But the worst part about it is about 10-14 years back I could. There was a time when i thought that was pretty cool and I'm a bit embarrassed to recall that stupid kid. This doesn't even take into account the increasing chain of near impossible events that would be needed for the NAN thing to shake out exactly like it did.
So yea, the NAN can die a quiet stupid death and not affect the core story that is Shadowrun one bit. The treaty of Denver is silly and my only hope from it coming up for renewal in the actual universe timeline is they quietly undo a significant portion of it.
I disagree with you on this there Lurker...
Even if it required a nigh impossible chain of near impossible events, that is exactly what happened in the Shadowrun History Books. As such it is verifiable history and something that the denizens of Shadowrun must deal with... The NAN History brough a lot of changes to North America, and it is okay... I say live with it and move on... it is not like you can change history that you don't like (as a denizen of the world at least)...
There is a lot of real world History that I am sure many, many countries would like to forget... many Countries are the originators of great holocausts (I include USA in that), and yet there is nothing that the real world citizens of any of those countries can do but live with it. It happened and it is history... Move on and try to make a better world...
Not trying to start a fight over it, but it is pretty funny to me how many people who originally enjoyed the NAN's foundation, now absolutely hate it. Just Move on...
Ok TJ I have a lot of respect for you, but this is a vapid argument.
Point of fact on at least one occasion regarding this exact issue history has proven to be very malleable. A good chunk of the original NAN story and the original NAN book got hand waved to be propaganda, that's a literal revision to the actual history. Further the entire new revolution and much of system failure pretty much existed to get some of the stupid out of the SR universe. The NAN only continues to propogate because the writing team now is likely pretty uncomfortable exploring conflicts along racial lines, much easier to have folks continually hate on trolls. This however is forehead smacking when there is every reason for a level of conflict when by every indication if your family is sinless in the SR universe the NAN might have started that chain, uprooted you from your lands and forced you to move somewhere else. How has that gone over in the holy land. Even if you stayed in place by meeting some racial purity test for your feather wearing overlords (because totally we'd all dress like that). Your a second class citizen.
Basically the existence of the NAN in it's current state as the place where pretty much nothing goes wrong runs very counter to the way the rest of the world has been hit with upheavals. Hell with the Thisman issue resolved and the seizing of LA the NAN are doing better then almost any nation on the planet in Shadowrun.
Mordivan: You realize that missile silos are actually built with potential earthquakes in mind, further even if they are compromised they are other options for delivering nuclear or conventional retalation, our submarine and bomb fleet are a huge expensive contigency plan against the ICBM arsenal being compromised.
Point of fact on at least one occasion regarding this exact issue history has proven to be very malleable. A good chunk of the original NAN story and the original NAN book got hand waved to be propaganda, that's a literal revision to the actual history. Further the entire new revolution and much of system failure pretty much existed to get some of the stupid out of the SR universe. The NAN only continues to propogate because the writing team now is likely pretty uncomfortable exploring conflicts along racial lines, much easier to have folks continually hate on trolls. This however is forehead smacking when there is every reason for a level of conflict when by every indication if your family is sinless in the SR universe the NAN might have started that chain, uprooted you from your lands and forced you to move somewhere else. How has that gone over in the holy land. Even if you stayed in place by meeting some racial purity test for your feather wearing overlords (because totally we'd all dress like that). Your a second class citizen.
Basically the existence of the NAN in it's current state as the place where pretty much nothing goes wrong runs very counter to the way the rest of the world has been hit with upheavals. Hell with the Thisman issue resolved and the seizing of LA the NAN are doing better then almost any nation on the planet in Shadowrun.
Mordivan: You realize that missile silos are actually built with potential earthquakes in mind, further even if they are compromised they are other options for delivering nuclear or conventional retalation, our submarine and bomb fleet are a huge expensive contigency plan against the ICBM arsenal being compromised.
I'm sorry Lurker, but I think you're blinded by the fact you hate the NAN. Things are NOT hunky dory there. They're NOT "places where nothing goes wrong." The fact you bring up the Tshimshian thing as "resolved" is completely crap, considering the land is dealing with MCT's shenanigans and there's also hints that the reverse of what happened there for so long (with the Haida being labeled terrorists by the ruling tribes, now after the pullout the Haida has taken power and now the Tshimshian are pulling terroist stuff enough to make the place a hot zone for the S-S)
And Ute went under, causing a big havoc for PCC since a lot of former Ute residents want Aztech to operate in the PCC, but the problem is that the Azzies will use that to run a backdoor into Denver and Ghostwalker will all but declare war on the PCC for that.
And Brackhaven is poking at the S-S doors now that he's in charge, not to mention with JTFSeattle there, the whole Council is secretly preparing for an invasion in case.
A-M has the problem with the False Face Society (since that never got resolved) and TPA is on the verge of fractionalizing due to taking over Iceland.
Honestly, I wonder your personal reasons for being blinded to the NAN's problems, but hey, I won't go there. I just think you're wrong when you're thinking that the writers aren't messing with them like they do the other uphevals.
And Ute went under, causing a big havoc for PCC since a lot of former Ute residents want Aztech to operate in the PCC, but the problem is that the Azzies will use that to run a backdoor into Denver and Ghostwalker will all but declare war on the PCC for that.
And Brackhaven is poking at the S-S doors now that he's in charge, not to mention with JTFSeattle there, the whole Council is secretly preparing for an invasion in case.
A-M has the problem with the False Face Society (since that never got resolved) and TPA is on the verge of fractionalizing due to taking over Iceland.
Honestly, I wonder your personal reasons for being blinded to the NAN's problems, but hey, I won't go there. I just think you're wrong when you're thinking that the writers aren't messing with them like they do the other uphevals.
Actually, seeing as what's going on in the 6th World, is there any place that's "Hunky Dory"?
...
OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.
...
OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 27 2010, 08:00 PM)
Actually, seeing as what's going on in the 6th World, is there any place that's "Hunky Dory"?
...
OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.
...
OK, that hasn't changed from what is going on IRL, but it's worse in almost every place.
Given that SR IS a dystopia...
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 27 2010, 07:50 PM)
Mordivan: You realize that missile silos are actually built with potential earthquakes in mind, further even if they are compromised they are other options for delivering nuclear or conventional retalation, our submarine and bomb fleet are a huge expensive contigency plan against the ICBM arsenal being compromised.
I was working on the assumption nuclear weapons were actually nonfunctional because of the awakening. The US would have had way more then enough conventional forces to simply roll the NAN. Everything they seemed to do which counted the US army is apparently only available via the power of plot anyway.
QUOTE (Kruger @ Aug 27 2010, 04:39 PM)
The Native Americans most likely would have had to deal with armed resistance from all sorts of resistant native Americans.
You mean the guys they just summarily shipped out?
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