This is why, as Dr. Funkenstain said, a barge would be a good idea. I have no idea how ship design goes, so I'm afraid I could do little more than SR4 statting, but I can do some google searching to provide some references.

I've been looking ar dive/research vessels and they fit our need most are 15-20 max passengers and crew. with a crew of about 7-9 the are 90-130 feet.
http://www.maritimesales.com/THV10.htm
and
http://www.maritimesales.com/DIV10.htm
Stand out in a way.

Stats wise we could easily uses the alternate models rules plus a few modifications to turn the yacht form arsenal into such a vessel. Speed is an issue though one of the links dose have a lift that could be used to launch and retrieve a boat.

Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_yacht is what the Wolff Classique III seams to be aiming to be.

Vis a vis ship size, I'd like to give the example of the Sa'ar 4.5 class missile boat, a 200 ft warship with a complement of 53, as well as a helicopter and numerous weapons systems and electronics. Following a cube-rule, a 120 ft boat should be able to support 12 people and their stuff pretty easily.

an 87 foot boat can support 20 IRL

I'd imagine it would depend entirely upon the boat and how comfortable everyone would want to be. There's no hard and fast rule for that, even in real life.

This game would be a million times easier if Penta just said: The boat your employer provides you has the following stats, room for X crew members/passengers, and X modification slots. You have X00,000¥ to purchase modifications and additional equipment.

That said, I'll toss this out as a sample long-range utility vehicle that might work.

Fishing/Research Vessel (pre-modification):

Handling -1
Accel 10/20
Speed 45
Pilot 1
Body 20
Armor 6
Sensor 2
Standard Upgrades: Special Machinery, crane

Water storage 7000L
Fuel storage (Diesel) 90000L
Fuel consumption (expressed in km/L) 0.3 km/L
Length overall 32m
Beam 5.5m
Draft 2m
Height above waterline 10m

Interior Space:
1 bridge, 1 galley, 1 mess room, 1 cargo hold, 1 engine room, 2 offices, 1 hospital with 2 beds, 2 single cabins, 6 double cabins

zzyxzs, nice boat.

The more I think about it, though, the more I think that the big yacht would fit us all, size-wise, with room to spare.

Plus, it would give us great cover: first (obvious) cover is as some rich folks (and maybe some servants if someone looks too disreputable and doesn't feel like putting on a monkey suit). Second cover, which will probably actually hold, is organized crime of some variety.

I could do that, Zz, but I'd wind up pulling the stats from the books again, everybody would want to design their own ship...And we'd be back where we are now.

(For what it's worth: Hi.)
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But since I can see Zzyxzs and others glaring at me through their computer screens and willing their arms to reach through and strangle me after reading that...I'll lay out an example.

Take the Classique III from Arsenal, since we've used that to argue over.

Strip out the Luxury Amenities, you get...Oh, 10k.

Default, I'd say it looks like such. I'm at school, away from books, so these are really guesstimates based upon some Googling and guesstimates.

Length overall of 100 feet (30.5 meters)
Beam of 6 meters (20 feet)
Draft of 2 meters (12 feet)
Height above waterline, let's say 8 meters (24 feet).

These dimensional values are likely to stay pretty constant, really it's just to show what kind of scale you intend, making sure to take into account the square-cube law (What? SR commonly ignores it in the height of buildings? Yes, I know that. But let's try to keep it in mind here.) and such things, and give us all a sense of size and volume. I might use them later to figure out where the heck to dock the thing, and whether you can go down a river, but that's minor for right now.
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These next numbers, on consumables, are more likely to change. Playability will come into account, as well as feel and general sanity.

Fuel consumption is tricky. If there were an easy way to figure out how tech had advanced to 2072 from 2010, I'm certain I have not found it. We used a useful metric of 2.6 km/L last time for the classique III, borrowing from Rigger 3 (which had 2.0 for the Classique) and advancing the tech a tad, and I figure that works for this go-round too. Generally, if you can find a similar vessel in, say, Rigger 3? Save yourself the work. Throw me the numbers and we'll work out something that feels right.
Fuel storage: Should really scale with fuel consumption, but keep in mind volume. For the Classique, a fuel tank of 500 liters seems more than adequate.

This works out, by the way, to 1300 kilometers range for a full tank. That may be a bit small - I can certainly see an argument for upping the fuel storage in the default tanks, possibly by a lot, because 1300 km range seems low.

Water storage is tricky. Karoline had a useful formula for water usage last campaign that we may as well apply here:

"Each person uses 118 L a week (Trolls use 125) and dishes/cooking uses 20 L/day."

Maybe dwarves would use less? But that sounds a bit odd, because dwarves aren't really that short by comparison, whereas trolls are huge.

Let's assume...10 humans/elves/orks/dwarves, 1180 L per week for all 10, then 140 L/week for common stuff. 1320 L/week, comes out to.

Let's say 12 weeks of water storage works for argument's sake, 15840 L of storage. We can up this, but I'm basically throwing out numbers to give us something to argue with.

So far as feel goes: When it comes to fuel, my gut instinct says "Get numbers that make it a concern, so that you can't just ignore it". Water, well. Even on a converted yacht, I want to maintain a sort of naval-ish feel. Shadowrunning is presented as kinda grimy compared to the ultra-cleanness that the trid makes it out to look like, and that's sort of the feel I want to go for so far as water usage goes. Water isn't in desperately short supply, but hey, can't waste it either.

For the record, I'm pricing diesel fuel at 5Y per liter at game start, and water at 0.2Y/liter. Yeah, water isn't free - because you'll be starting off in Miami, I checked with parents, who have a condo in Florida. Turns out that the South Florida region is basically in an unending drought so far as freshwater goes, and I don't see it getting any better in 62 years.
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Still going:

I'm going to figure that you want everybody on the crew/passengers to have small single-bunk quarters, with a small bathroom (toilet, shower, sink, that's it) attached. My instinct is a sort of like a small single dorm room.

So let's figure on "This ship can carry 20 people in posited quarters." Sounds sensible for a yacht conversion, including crew and passengers. Probably a low-ball number, but it works.

You then get modslots per Arsenal, plus 1 because we removed Luxury Appointments earlier in the example. Cost of the yacht is per Arsenal, deducted from the 500k budget, but you get 10k back from the cost when you downgrade the living spaces. (One of my non-trivial considerations here is the loan. If I make it too small, you can't get much, or it becomes too easy to pay off. If I make it too large, it rapidly reaches a point where you can't functionally pay it off.)

Using the types of ships used on the deadliest catch as examples, they have fuel tanks that hold over 100,000 liters. That makes 500 liters seem less adequate, unless the ship plans to stay near a safe harbor for frequent refueling. EDIT: Of course, I'm also using more realistic fuel consumption figures, so you can reduce that by a factor of 10 to get 8,000 - 10,000 liters as a good target for fuel capacity.



The rule of thumb for water usage at sea is 14L/day/person total (including cleaning, cooking, and incidental functions) if you aren't rationing but are using seawater instead of fresh water where possible. I'd have a troll count as two people (can't forget that square-cube law Penta) and make the bookkeeping easy.

Convert it either to an all-electric or preferably a dual engine (I can't remember the term) and add a SunCell. Fuel problems become next to moot.

You could do that, Doc Funk, but that would make your GM sad - one thing is that all these expenses? Oh, hell, I'll be honest. They add up. They keep money flowing, not merely in but out.

Zz: Fair points. 10k L sounds great, given R3-level fuel consumption figures. 26k KM, though, is one heck of a range.

I like what you're thinking about for water usage...Okay, that works. Rationing isn't essential here.

Hit me like that again if I get lost in the details like that, someone.

Well, I honestly don't know how it works out in 4th Edition as I haven't tinkered much with those rules to this extent. In previous editions, however, those types of engines had the benefit of having a better performance with the combustion engines active rather than the battery/electric ones. The latter were used as emergency backup if you did happen to run out of fuel or needed to run silent or something. If you were in a chase or pursuit, you'd want the combustion engine going.

If we do that, we might as well include a heavy duty desalinization system and say "Goodbye," to the potable water problem as well

A bunch of yacht designs, with stats (water capacity, fuel capacity, range, etc.), and deck by deck layouts: http://charterexploreryachts.com/exploreryachtdesign.html

Any of them could stand in for the Classique III (or at least fit as a "similar model"), but I'd go for the one with a helipad.

Just found this on my laptop.
http://knasser.me.uk/knasser_media/content...run/tampico.pdf
Maybe adapt that?

Xahn: That's a cargo ship, AKA a target.

Zzyxzs: I like the site, but I can't find the one with a helipad.

Edit: Found it. Personally, 150' is stretching the length I'd be comfortable with in a base ship. 130' is probably the max.

(Why? Because a 150' ship, like a 200' ship...There are a handful of harbors all along the East Coast of the (RL) US that can dock the thing, as I understand it.)

Forgot to get to this earlier, but to answer:
Arsenal, page 146
"Workshop (Standard): A vehicle workshop is a mobile version of a shop. Workshops are generally not meant to be used while the vehicle is in motion, though the gamemaster may permit some limited amount of work (perhaps treating the tools as a kit rather than a shop, and adding further limitations if the project being worked on is too large to it within the vehicle)."

Basically, you can do work in a vehicle workshop. No need to "unpack". As for being too unsteady to do careful work, I would remind you that this is a 100 foot boat. Ever been in one? Unless you're in rough sea or going top speed, they're pretty damn steady. So, maybe no implantations, but being able to do surgery on board would be nice.

Yeah, okay, I'll give on the shop issue. However, to prevent a horde of shops: 1 project at a time per shop, and no more than 4 shops.

And partially re the medical stuff. Surgery, sure. Implanting anything? No.

That should work. Enough for a med shop, a vehicle shop (mostly drones), a chem shop, and electronics shop.

Also, working on character backstory. Finishing up on gear and implants/magic.

Do we want to shell out for a desktop forge?

It'd be nice, but we'll need a way to make sure the feedstock doesn't have tags all in it. If we get that, I'm all for being able to make our own weapons/vehicles/widgets.

Um, which kind of vehicle? It sorts by skill, I think. And flying drones use different tools than swimming drones. And you need (I suppose) tools for repairs while underway to the ship...In as much as one can do such a thing.

Nautical repair shop. It should serve largely as the engineering bay. We'll have to settle for a kit for repairing/altering flyer drones unless we want to do without a chem shop. (unless we want to use the kitchen...)

I'm not sure how many are along the eastern US, but I know that Mexico has at least 7 private marinas that can dock a 150 yacht (Marina Coral, Marina Cabo San Lucas, Marina CostaBaja, Paradise Village Marina, Marina Puerto de la Navidad, Acapulco Yacht Club, and Marina Chahue). Add to that public marinas, commercial ports, floating slips, supply/fuel boats, and military harbors and there seem be quite a few options. If the ship has a good range, there shouldn't be much need to dock very often anyway. The rest of the time the ship can anchor inside the jetties, like the big yachts do in places like Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard. The ship's size is only an issue if you want it to be.

Why do we need a chemistry shop? Could we get one of those microfacs? I'd like to bring a cybertechnology shop if that's alright? That desktop forge sounds like a great idea, though.

Armorers workshop seams more usefull than one for chem tech guns need mantinance so does armor. Plus with the communal desktop forge we have the abilty to add any nodds to our guns an armor at sea. Along with ones for medical use and cybertech and ship repairs we have alot of our bases covered. For longterm independance from needing to dock. If we can get a microfab for chemistry as well all the better.

I think i'm going to change over form intell gal to financier/bean counter. Someone's got to keep up with the cash on this endeavor.

Foxx:

A voice of God response (in other words, not a suggestion, this is fundamental stuff I'd like everyone to keep in mind):

That really only works: As an OOC thing, and as an Additional Duty (the purser, it's properly called) on top of anything else you do ICly.

Even then, don't expect to see it come up too often after chargen - It'll come up, yes, but we're talking very basic double-entry bookkeeping that one could do with a scrap of paper or an excel spreadsheeet on the OOC side, and ICly you'll have custom accounting software on the ship's computer to help you do it. You do need someone to do it, but it can't be the only thing you do.

Realistically, especially if we're talking a smaller crew, everybody needs to have an operational role of some sort.

The situation starts to allow more support roles as we reach 8 players, and with 10-12 players I specifically look for someone to act in the total-support roles as a dedicated MD (with background and stats to match) onboard ship.

Okay, end of VOG stuff, back to my usual GM posture of "These are strictly suggestions until I say otherwise":

I'm seeing a lot of role overlap as I look at concepts. My one tip as GM is that it'll probably make people somewhat happier in the long-run if roles are...Well, some overlap is expected, but you want to also have your bases covered, and clearly define who does what primarily, and who backs up whom. If you need help defining roles, tell me the context you need to define roles in, and I can scribble up a list of potential roles so everybody is working off a common vocabulary.
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A brief note about karma expenditure and stuff.

Because this campaign doesn't lend itself to a neat dividide between "action" and "non-action" like a normal campaign, I handle it differently.

There's time operational, and shore leave.

Shore leaves I'll declare - they're basically "downtimes", times for you to do the stuff you'd ordinarily do between runs (that you can't do aboard ship). The quickie rule of thumb I use is that when you're docked, it's a shore leave. That's when I process karma expenditures, when new players are added, etc.

Outside of shore leaves, you do stuff. You train, stand watches (quick and dirty rule: For training time purposes, each half hour spent standing a watch counts as one hour training time in the associated skill, I'll go into this more if need be), go after ships, and...yeah, this is sort of the run period.

Edge is tricky - my initial insticnt is to refresh it with each shore loeave, but that's a gut instinct.

As that note: look at This thread. It's long, it includes a lot of sausagemaking, but it has some handy rulings and stuff from the last time a group did the chargen process with me; As that was only in September, I've not really had chance to change my mind on rules-fu stuff, though I'm entirely persuadable.

What I've posted previously on this thread wins, but rather than repeat myself, I figure it just saves sanity if I point you guys to there, and you can ask questions with that knowledge of how I've ruled in the past.
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Finally: While we are nowhere *near* being ready to start play yet, that doesn't mean I don't think about the first moves.

My initial instinct is to repeat, with modifications, the training sequence the initial crew underwent onboard the Fedallah last campaign. It'll be modified to remove some of the drudgery, but it seems kind of nuts to just recruit you, hand over the keys to the boat (or whatever) and send you off. I wouldn't do that if I were the UCAS Navy, at least. So they'll probably do something, at the very least to bond you guys together and make sure you can handle life at sea before they turn over the ship and send you off on your own.

We can montage it as much as you guys want, that said. I know it dragged on a bit for those who did it last time, and my hope this time is that I can shake out some of the bugs and get it to run faster.

On that note, since today I've been through what remains of my old files (mostly karma logs and the like) for the last campaign, here's the Zodiac boat that I found in one of the threads, that maybe sticks out to you guys as a subcraft.

Zodiac International Hurricane VI RHIB

With over 80 years of history and development, Zodiac's Hurricane line of rigid hull inflateable boats is the best selling and most well-known RIB in the 6th world. The Hurricane is fast, small, manuverable, and easy to transport. They are commonly used by militaries and law enforment officials who need a quick an power craft that can be easily deployed from a larger ship or helicopter. Over the years the Hurricane base model has been kept highly streamlined, boasting only simple manual controls and only the most basic of sensors. These options can be added-on in more advanced models.

Std. Upgrade: Assembly Time Improvement

Handling +3
Accel 15/35
Speed 90
Pilot 0
Body 10
Armor 4
Sensor 1
Avail 9
Cost 30,000Y
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Rulings I'm making: Each Zodiac holds 16 people, including the 1 operator.

Disassembled, your typical Zodiac fits in about a cubic foot, excluding the engine. Assembly takes Body minutes, and uses one tank of compressed air - which costs 1Y at your local gas station and .5Y for refills.

This is only your 'stock' version. Zodiac sells numerous modified versions, all made in the UCAS.

I think we need a clear sound off of who's currently intending to do what to help us figure out what we have covered.

So far, my character is a MD/Hacker with a couple repair skills.

I'm going ex-SBS so a sam type also a diver and steath to some extent

My character probably counts as a pure hacker (though with some very particular focuses), though she's capable of fighting if absolutely necessary.

EDIT: Spelling

I would like to add a character if a position is still open. An ex smuggler magician. A few technical skills other than the required, some rather expected magical skills, some inflitration skill, and little combat skills except those used in self defense or fishing take your pick.

Position's open, yes. Same rules as everybody else.

That'll be 2 magicians, not a major issue, but from your description I think you and me are going to have a fair bit of overlap... here's a quick skill/spell list for my mage:

Active Skills:
Conjuring group 2
Spellcasting 5
Astral Combat 3
Counterspelling 3
Perception 3
Infiltration 3
Shadowing 2
Pistols 3
Swimming 1
Nautical Mechanic 1

Spells:
Increase Reflexes
Heal
Powerbolt
Manaball
Improved Invis
Silence
Armor
Magic Fingers
Mist
Levitate

Pure Watercraft Rigger. Pilot Watercraft 6
Navigation/Pilot for me
Combat skills consist of mounted weaponry and a backup sidearm in a cyberarm

Any significant mechanical skills to speak of? (Can you fix our boat with duct tape and a soldering iron?)

Alright, here we go. One Communications Officer, right here. I'd also like to put Cherry forward for the position of Purser (she has a Math SPU and is probably one of the crew that our employers will trust more) and XO (she has some military command experience).

I can post the full spreadsheet if anyone really feels that's necessary.

EDIT: I just realized I forgot to make Cherry a SINner. Whoops. Dropping Codeblock for SINner.

Vital Stats


Biography in 3 Paragraphs


Physical and Personality Description


Skillz (Yes, with a Z)


Qualities


Gear
A bunch. I spent 50 BP on gear, and really don't want to list it all here, though I'll list her 'ware.


Drones/Vehicles
2 Aztechnology Armadillos

Contacts

So, been sitting back and playing with stuff.

Think I'll claim the Gunnery Officer position as Dumori switched to quarterpounder errr quartermaster.

Any issues with the restricted gear quality Penta? Or taking it multiple times for that matter?

While asking that... if you OK'd it, would taking ammo for an assault cannon require a separate quality pick?

Considering he ok'd my rough character sheet with restricted gear, I doubt you'd have too many issues. >.>

I think we're dealing with a "no-munchinks plz" kind of GM.

The heavy weapon to start would be the only thing i'd really consider munchy.

Just fits with the concept in my head that's struggling to break surface

Yeah, I have a piece of forbidden gear, and got approval for a couple others I decided not to use in the end.

I was going for Navigator with Outdoors 3, but only Pilot Watercraft 1. More of a do-not-get-lost kind of Navigator.

I should note for Michandre's sake that of the elected positions, you can only have one - So, Purser OR XO.

Some stuff unrelated to anything:

Michandre, no need to post up your sheet again, but for everybody else I recommend posting your full gear listing, too, not just cyberware. Spoiler codes can be used inside of each other. This will become vital when I create the OOC thread for the campaign, as you guys will post your sheets before I repost the ship stuff. The reason is that in case something happens to my hard drive (which has happened before) or I or others are away from our normal computers, the sheets on the OOC thread will be our reference copies. Especially for me, I keep the excel sheets orwhatnot at home on my computer. I don't bring it around with me on a flash drive or anything.

For everybody. I use google chat and/or AIM extensively, and/or MSN messenger. If you don't, that's fine. If you do, I'll happily share my contact info via PM if you ask. If you don't use it regularly, understand that I filter my AIM list (though not my google list, it filters itself) every so often for people who don't talk to me much. I'm happy to chat about the game, or just babble about anything. However, while I'll outline stuff and even negotiate stuff over AIM or Google (I can even, over AIM, do 1-on-1 scenes for later posting), for fairness it should be considered tentative until posted.

Email: Yeah, as you finish sheets or backgrounds, PM me and you'll get my email address. Like with instant messenging, I'm happy to chat about the game, or just babble, or whatever. However, so far as game stuff goes - actual rules rulings, same rule as for IMs - it's tentative until I post something about it. If you want to do 1-on-1 scenes via email, we can do that too.

Same broad guidelines apply to PMs - I don't use em as much because I kinda don't like the interface, but I can work with it. Scenes using it are a bit harder, but totally possible.
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Oh, and nobody's asked, but since Zzyxzs is posting here, I figured I'd mention: If you previously played in Blood in the Water, feel free to bring over your chracter from that campaign. Or creating a new one. Just PM me and we'll work out the details.

Exactly right. I pay attention to the RAW, but I pay far more attention to how it all fits together, and how it all balances out.

I don't think anyone else did already thus I'd like to call dibs on the Medical Officer position with a former russian medical officer/battlefield surgeon, if possible.

We have a medic/comms person, but I don't think we've a dedicated medic.

Oh, one thing...Nobody's fallen foul of this yet, but I highly recommend y'all pick a language everybody should have in common.

Thusfar for the record, English seems to be winning on that score.

English seams the best bet any way being the universeal language in aviation and sailing.

Hey, my character speaks Russian! I mean, not well...

English should definitely be the common language, especially considering our employers.

EDIT: I'd also like to note that I really like the former-military vibe that so many of our group seem to be developing. I think it'll give the game an interesting tone, compared to the usual options on Mirror Shades/Pink Mohawk continuum.