No, not ad hominem at all. He didn't attack, he's just asking for proof instead of somebody's personal opinion. I'd like to see the proof behind that statement too.

That rumor is so wacky it doesn't bear repeating. Why would WotC have made up a story about stopping selling PDFs due to piracy if they thought one of their vendors was ripping them off? Why would they have left both the vendors they used at the same time if only one was ripping them off? Why wouldn't they have implemented their own direct sales strategy by now?

I used to be in the same camp and then something happened...I moved. In CNY I no longer have a dozen gamers living close by who want to drive over to my place to play a RPG. Lugging around say...my 3.5 D&D collection was a royal pain in my ass. A laptop with PDF's not a hassle in the slightest. The day is fast approaching when publishers are going to release PDFs that do things...print product cannot. Not to mention that I can shop for a PDF at 3 am in my boxers eating a slice of cold pizza.




So if I spend the extra time creating full color art for the PDF that won't be in the print product, do layout in Landscape and Portrait style, embed audio and video clips into a PDF...then that extra effort on my part is not worth something?

LGS will have to adapt their policies to survive. Not sure they will gain more clients than lose, though

I'm a big fan of hardcopies for actual physical gaming (putting them in my backpack, going to my friend's house while being quietly reassured by the heft and mass of books, knowledge and entertainment granted physical form, that sort of thing). I'm a big fan of pdfs for when I'm sitting in my home, researching a game for some writing I want to do, to bicker with someone on the internet about who's playing pretend the right way, or to quickly look up a rule while working on a character.

I don't think pdfs should necessarily be free, but I do think it would be great if they could be purchased alongside a hardcopy book at a reasonable discount, or if the purchase of a pdf offered a lowered price on the purchase of the hardcopy version (when released at a later date), or something similar.

First let me say that I am literally a bibliophile. I don't just like reading, I like books themselves. Libraries are my temples.

Having said that, I have seen in the last month that the days of dead-tree books for RPGs is certainly numbered. While I personally will always want hardcovers of books for my favorite games, that is now more for nostalgia than practicality.

While I own PDFs copies of many books that I also own on paper, until this year they were not more useful at the gaming table than paper. Devices like the I-Pad change that.

Having my entire game library in searchable full color, on a device lighter than one book is better than paper books during play.

Make those books have more hypertext like features and they only get better.

P.S. Having said all of that, current PDFs are nor yet better enough to warrant fully paying for the same book twice. I'd say that a PDF/Book Combo should cost no more than $5 more than the book alone.

Down the road I think will see most game books go digital only, with hard copy available as print-on-demand for a small fee on top of the digital-only cost.

I believe (not rumor just what I personally think) WOTC never wanted PDFs to work. The current encounters program shows how "in bed" they are with retail outlets and don't want to endanger that relationship. Steve Jackson said (paraphrasing from what I can recall at PAX) PDF sales don't work like the retail sales and his game company is still trying to find where the balance is. White-wolf on the other hand really would like to go pdf only with print on demand options.

Game publishers _should_ be "in bed" with stores that support their games by offering playspace and a physical place for gamers to meet, network, and congregate.

Sorry, but I'm not taking your word for it. If you care to do an analysis of the Billboard charts for the last sixty years or so, I'll be willing to take a look at your data. But otherwise, you really have nothing to back up your statements.

Honest question here. How is Posthuman Studios "in bed" with their gaming stores (or plan to be, without giving away NDA stuff obviously)? More so than say Amazon or any other place I can buy a print copy? I mean some store owners would say that having a free PDF hurts their buisness and isnt supporting your FLGS or not so friendly LGS as the case may be. Most publishers are not promoting the FLGS as much as WOTC is with Encounters.

[edit] Also would you say that choosing to offer pdfs is hurting the FLGS? because many publishers are doing that and with ipads, 3d printers, and the internet the days of the FLGS may be numbered.

Your going to ask questions of a derailed portion of a speculation thread? Ok.
If the vendor copies the product and sells it without paying royalties, I think it's still piracy. And it's a lot more serious then just having your customer base stealing from you. It's your business partners that are doing the theft.
One post I remembered mentions multiple sellers engaging in this behavior (I think my 'twice' originally posted was a mangled memory of this, it wasn't one vendor multiple times, but instead multiple vendors). I tracked it down here, but can not find the original source that carried more weight. =( http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/vie...num=2#378001469

The note I read on the boards from Wotc_Trevor stated "Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs. We are exploring other options for digital distribution of our content and as soon as we have any more information I'll get it to you. " http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/vie...um=85#335393634
Which still fits that rumor. WotC was looking at other options for distribution. Probably because it was the distribution chain that was faulty.
Why not implement their own direct sales strategy? I guess they thought it not profitable. Super, not serious, speculation warning: The bean counters were using the figures reported from the unscrupulous vendors, obviously.

Yes. I work in this business; I have done business with both Paizo and OneBookShelf (DriveThruRPG/RPGNow) as a vendor with multiple companies, and I do freelance work for OneBookShelf. My experiences with them as business partners have been stellar in every respect. I have _never_ heard the rumours you speak of before, not from a fan or from another professional.



Agreed.



There is no source for bone_naga's information.

We're working with Sandstorm on this sort of stuff; one of the great things about partnering with Sandstorm is it will offer us a broader hammer, so to speak.


Analysis of the sales numbers I've seen doesn't bear this to be true.

(I mean, some people would claim that by distributing Eclipse Phase under a Creative Commons license, we wouldn't sell any PDFs of it, and that is far from the truth.)



Very true. WotC is huge, and has a ton of experience running organized play, from years-and-years of running Magic: the Gathering. Everything WotC does should be better than any other hobby game company.


Games that sell well electronically also sell well in print. Is running a successful game store easy? Hell no; but every thriving retailer I know understands that electronic distribution builds interest in the print distribution. A rising tide raises all boats.

I've never run the numbers (or seen anyone else do it), but looking at most of the online game stores, I think we're already there, with most (ie: more than 50%) of books and games fitting your description. The Internet has taken up the role of basement printers who used to deliver most of our non-TSR product back early days of gaming. In a way, I think we've come full circle with the hobby.

Addition: we've got a game store in the Detroit area that based its business model on printing your PDF. As long as you can prove ownership, you can walk into the store with your USB and walk out with a printed book.

Thanks Adam! I hope I didn't come off as rude, I was generally curious.

I think this is true if you are talking about the number of unique titles, but not yet true if you are talking about overall units moved.

I usually game out in Fenton, but I live in Waterford and work in Southfield. Where's this place?

Any idea why the Catalyst RED program seems to have fizzled? The idea was great and my local FLGS couldn't wait to get in on it.

I'd imagine the problems that led to the existence of ten speculation threads played a large part in its failure to launch.

I live in clinton township and I think he's talking about:

Guild of Blades Retail Group
www.gobretail.com
28736 John R Rd
Madison Heights, MI 48071

-Ashrum

That's the one.

The rumor falls into the category of 'blame the retailers' which seemed to be one angle people were taking in support of WotC's decision. WotC_Trevor's statement fits the rumor, but is more accurate in the context of other WotC statements when read to be referring to Bittorrent.

Which would cause a company to completely terminate a line of products? Finding that one of their distributors has incorrectly reported their sales 'a couple times' or finding out that for every one they sell, no matter who distributes it, there's ten people grabbing it for free off of bittorrent?

At the same time WotC pursued legal action against the customers whose copies were put onto bittorrent.

If the rumor was the true reason for WotC pulling PDFs, they could have very easily gone exclusive to a different PDF retailer, or pursued legal action against the retailer in question. They could have set up their own retail system. Since they've done none of these things, I would say that there's no truth to the rumor, and WotC pulled PDF sales for the reason they gave.

Man, what site are you going to?

I know a guy who runs a game company that prints the vast majority of their products in their office. It takes about $20-$25K of capital to produce decent product using equipment that is reliable per what I've been told.

I though more people were doing this based on the attendance at the GTS seminars on how to do this, but Adam was right, there are just a tiny number (like 3) companies that do this themselves. I expect it will become more popular as the prices keep dropping, but maybe not.

So, now that we know CGL has retained the liscence, what will they do with it?

After War, Attitude, Space Elevator book and a few others come out (can't recall them off the top of my head), what are the plans for 2011 and beyond?

The only thing I heard is that is that JM Hardy said (during a recent interview) that they are nearing the end of a edition cycle and that they want to do something "special" for 2011. I guess this is sort of a hint hint nudge nudge towards a new edition, though I'm not sure how much thought they gave it given their (hopefully) past troubles.

tl;dr: Does anyone know any rumors a possible 5th edition of SR?

he didn't say they were nearing the end of the edition cycle. he said they were too far in to revise all the expansion books like they did SR4A.

A new edition a year after the anniversary edition and less then a year after the limited editions was released of it would pretty much end it for me.

4A might not tickle everyone's fancy but a new edition this soon after a bunch of releases they have been pimping for fourth would be a real waste of time

Besides Rigger 4 hasn't come out yet.

I'd like to know as well, me and my FLGS were also looking forward to it.

Are you sure there is room for one? Half of its aimed content is in Unwired and the other half in Arsenal.

I haven't posted on here in a long time... (too many bad experienes in too short a time a while back) - but this thread motivated me to speak up.

I love my dead-tree books, especially my SR collection; I own every sourcebook printed in English for 1st-3rd editions but one (Virtual Realities - which I put on order at Origins since Crazy Egor had a copy) and the DMZ boxed set (which I'm searching for at a price I can afford) and many of the adventures as well as all of the core books and a couple extras from 4th ed. If I like a game I want a print copy! Reading books on my computer annoys me.

That being said, I have about 20 different systems in pdf form. Some of them are are out of print and nearly impossible to find in DTF these days, some aren't. They have their uses, but not being able to pass the book to my players really sucks. I agree that companies should sell both print and electronic formats and price them based on a combination of production cost and value; however if a customer wants both formats, then there should be a huge discount on the combo package.

As for piracy, it's going to happen and not much can be done to stop it. "Witch-Hunts" simply drive away customers.

Streetangel aka J Carroll

He's (sort of) joking. Traditionally, the rigger book heralds the end of an edition. I believe that Rigger Black Book was the last 1st edition book, Rigger 2 was the last one for 2E. and R3R ended 3rd ed.

R3R didn't end 3rd Ed. R3 ended _FASA_. R3R was released in 2003; a couple years before SR4.

I know R3R was pretty much the end of my sanity.

But...R3R took out the naval stuff!

You know a light naval rail gun gun was less deadly than an assault cannon? That was an annoying discovery.

Except that it ignored outright any armour without the N descriptor. Assault Cannons could be stopped by
milspec armour, the Light Naval Rail Gun could not..

So am I right in thinking the situation is this

Extension for six months to take them through the convention season and give them a chance to prove all is well?
In the next six months we will see a few books come out first digi then print (in theory)

Then another round of what's going to happen in six months time



Or was it three? I'm a tad lost

When CGL took over from FanPro, they were originally given a one year temporary license to see if they
could do anything with the properties, and then, they got their 2 year extension to that license. Currently,
based on the news, they have been given a 6 month additional extension to the license, which should take
them through November or December. Likely this is to get the Chapter 7 dealt with(august), and give
both sides time to hammer out details that we, as players and consumers, will likely never know about.
Likely, then, they will finish all the details, and we will see a new 3 year Long Term Contract, since it was
stated way back when the contract was first extended to the 3 year that 3 years is the common length.
And, books coming out first electronic, then dead tree has been the way CGL and, before them, FanPro
had been doing things from the beginning.

FanPro released PDF versions of their books? Seems like I missed that.

Put the rest into Cyberpirates 2!

I've been reading articles about EBMs (electronic book machines), for the last few months. They can produce library quality paperbacks from an electronic document for $3-$5 and in about a minute. I know that for fiction writers wanting to self-publish books that are not going to wow a traditional publishing house have been going down this path.

I've read that the machines cost about $100,000 of initial investment, but a lot of universities may find these types of machines on campus. It shouldn't be that long when getting larger books with more complex graphics on-demand is doable.

No, I was not saying that. I was pointing out my assumption (and it may be flawed) that if all you are doing is taking an electronic file that is being sent to the printers and making it available via PDF, without changing anything, then its not adding value and therefore shouldn't cost more than the book.

You could say that just having the PDF is a value, as its portable and available on a device, but I think that is just double-dipping with your consumers.

We'll have to see what the next six months look like. The bankruptcy hearing in August could put a serious cramp in IMR's long term plans. They also have to get quality product out in the meantime, something they have had a serious problem with recently.

People who buy only PDFs could say this:

You could say that just being a book is a value, with the quick page flipping and lendability, but I think that is just double-dipping with your consumers.

There's a huge difference, per-unit production cost.

I am well aware of this, Delta.

That surprises me, really.

I'd be surprised if you weren't

Still, it's the most important difference IMHO, and the main reason why I feel that a "very special offer" to get a hardcopy and a PDF of the same book for ONLY 25$ more than the hardcopy alone is a pretty crappy deal, and not one I'll ever take (just an example I've seen often enough)

On the .pdf versus deadtree debate, I had an interesting discussion with Mike Stackpole last year where he noted that a majority of people who buy .pdf don't buy Kindle, deadtree or iPhone versions. And iPhone downloaders don't buy .pdf, Kindle, deadtree... Etc.

Basically, in his experience, he can format his work 10 different ways to Sunday and there is little purchasing crossover from his readers.

So, while many people on Dumpshock may purchase both versions, that statistic doesn't necessarily hold true for the entire SR fan community. Of course, proving that fact would be rather difficult since stores and conventions don't usually take names and compare them to the buyers of online .pdfs. Still, I thought I'd share that interesting little thought given the nature of the conversation.