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Taharqa
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Oct 25 2010, 05:22 PM) *
But the longer this mess gets drawn out, the more attention I pay to the person sitting in that seat and the quality of his message.


The only thing being "drawn out" at this point is a thread which no longer has a purpose.
ravensmuse
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Oct 25 2010, 11:22 AM) *
I see a lot of hero worship for the position, a certain respect because Jason is Shadowrun line developer. But the longer this mess gets drawn out, the more attention I pay to the person sitting in that seat and the quality of his message. The quality of his message hasn't gotten any better, spin is spin. The content is still "it's all cool, trust us", and we have been shown nothing yet that we can trust.

I've been trying to keep what I've had to say as impersonal as I can, because I don't honestly have any ill will towards Jason. I work in insurance - I've had worse shit flung my way, from doctors even. What I am trying to put forward is my complaint with Catalyst. Jason is the PR guy, and I know that he's restricted to what he's able to say. I understand.

But I also know that if you don't constantly work on something, even to the point of "harping", nothing gets done. If he wants us to trust Catalyst again with Shadowrun, then I feel he needs to be one hundred percent transparent about what's going on with the problem I've singled out. I'm not asking for detailed withdrawal lists from the company vault, or what Catalyst's funds are or anything - I want them to say, "we know that Loren is a problem, and here is how we're dealing with it. We'll detail it out as details sort themselves out."

If I'm going to really shoot for the moon, changing the policy of not announcing release dates until they're ready to go would go a bit of a way with me, but I know that's asking for a whole lot (don't really get why though, considering that even independent rpg publishers seem to be able to get things out on time, but that's neither here nor there).
deek
I for one think JM's approach is commendable. Instead of giving anyone some feel good words, which are every only temporary, he's putting his "money" on his actions. Let's see the product that comes out over the next few months and judge him by that. I agree with what he's pointing out, that if products are coming out and people are getting paid, then the corrective actions are working and overall, the line is healthy and moving forward.

What else do any of us really want? That's all I care about.
LurkerOutThere
Critas put things a lot more eloquently then I could have.

I do think there are some people that are never going to be pleased and never going to be satified, hey want more authority over the company then their dollar really buys. All of us have the same basic control of the company, we can buy our products or we cannot. Some have declared that they no longer are going to purchase, frankly I don't think any words Jason or anyone else says will reverse that for those who are truely outraged.

The simple truth is there are a lot of companies I spend a lot of money with that I have zero insight into their operation and have done some documented horrible things. If your old enough to have bought long distance service before VOIP or have bought any kind of plastics at any point you've helped support some real monsters from a business stand point. Lightbulbs? Ditto. It doesn't matter there so why is it so important here.

Based on this trend I don't think the vast majority of SR players give a crap so long as product gets produced and it's good product. I'm more concerned about whether or not the Jackpoint splash page comes back then i am about anything Loren or frankly Jason does outside of making good products.
otakusensei
QUOTE (deek @ Oct 25 2010, 01:54 PM) *
I for one think JM's approach is commendable. Instead of giving anyone some feel good words, which are every only temporary, he's putting his "money" on his actions. Let's see the product that comes out over the next few months and judge him by that. I agree with what he's pointing out, that if products are coming out and people are getting paid, then the corrective actions are working and overall, the line is healthy and moving forward.

What else do any of us really want? That's all I care about.


We've given them a few months. We've given them plenty of months. We got a little string of weak releases because Topps pushed them. And now where is the follow up? Lots of promises, empty promises.

That's why I'm done with IMR. Because as poor as their spin is, it's way better than their product.
otakusensei
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 25 2010, 02:18 PM) *
Critas put things a lot more eloquently then I could have.

I do think there are some people that are never going to be pleased and never going to be satified, hey want more authority over the company then their dollar really buys. All of us have the same basic control of the company, we can buy our products or we cannot. Some have declared that they no longer are going to purchase, frankly I don't think any words Jason or anyone else says will reverse that for those who are truely outraged.

The simple truth is there are a lot of companies I spend a lot of money with that I have zero insight into their operation and have done some documented horrible things. If your old enough to have bought long distance service before VOIP or have bought any kind of plastics at any point you've helped support some real monsters from a business stand point. Lightbulbs? Ditto. It doesn't matter there so why is it so important here.

Based on this trend I don't think the vast majority of SR players give a crap so long as product gets produced and it's good product. I'm more concerned about whether or not the Jackpoint splash page comes back then i am about anything Loren or frankly Jason does outside of making good products.


Nah, you're right. Why care? Just existing is a burden on someone else, and we can't do anything about it anyway. Thanks, Lurkster, I needed the reality check.
Cain
For the record, I'm not asking Jason to badmouth IMR. Quite the opposite. I'm asking him to say good things about IMR, so we feel better about the direction the company is headed.

For example: I work for Goodwill. I can say lots of nice things about what the company is doing, the direction it's headed, the five-year plan, and so on, all without breaking confidentiality. I can also say lots of nice things about the division I work for: how we help people with disabilities find and keep jobs, especially in these tough times. Jason has said a lot of nice things about his department (Shadowrun) but nothing about the company.

I'm not going to "badger" Jason about the flow and quality of product. In fact, I think some products look very nice. But I do want to see what good things he has to say about Catalyst.
Grinder
To what end? Is it of interest to anyone here if Catalyst has a good five-year-plan, the relaxed dress codes and such shit? Don't think so. This thread serves no real purpose anymore, it seems.
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Oct 25 2010, 11:53 AM) *
I'm not asking for detailed withdrawal lists from the company vault, or what Catalyst's funds are or anything - I want them to say, "we know that Loren is a problem, and here is how we're dealing with it. We'll detail it out as details sort themselves out."


That's not Jason's to give and not even necessarily information that he possesses.
ravensmuse
He wants transparency? He wants the fandom to trust them again? Then let us know what's going on. When I screw up with my girl, and I do something that breaks trust? I let her know everything.

If he wants all of the above, then Catalyst can start authorizing some information to come out. Because for the moment? They've done nothing to garner my trust except a piddly 5$ coupon for e-work and the note that freelancers are getting paid.

And for the record? I ask the same of my senators. They're smart enough to get out of a public forum quickly enough to not get called out on their dirt.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Oct 26 2010, 11:01 AM) *
He wants transparency? He wants the fandom to trust them again? Then let us know what's going on. When I screw up with my girl, and I do something that breaks trust? I let her know everything.

If he wants all of the above, then Catalyst can start authorizing some information to come out. Because for the moment? They've done nothing to garner my trust except a piddly 5$ coupon for e-work and the note that freelancers are getting paid.

And for the record? I ask the same of my senators. They're smart enough to get out of a public forum quickly enough to not get called out on their dirt.



Please stop pretending you represent the fandom. I'm not going to get into minority/majority things here but based on my own observations about this company and others the bulk of the fandom doesn't care as long as stuff that's worth buying is coming out.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Kid Chameleon @ Oct 26 2010, 04:09 PM) *
That's not Jason's to give and not even necessarily information that he possesses.


Did I miss something and Jason also handles the PR? Or is his stated position to still produce and release Shadowrun products?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that he continues to communicate with us (and in a manner some PR professionals could emulate), but I didn't think it was his job.
IcyCool
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 26 2010, 05:09 PM) *
Please stop pretending you represent the fandom. I'm not going to get into minority/majority things here but based on my own observations about this company and others the bulk of the fandom doesn't care as long as stuff that's worth buying is coming out.


Since people have decided to speak for others (without bothering to find out what those others think), I just thought I should state that not only have I not purchased a CGL product since this debacle began, I will continue to "vote with my wallet" and refrain from making any purchases as long as Loren continues to benefit (which, until I receive any sort of proof that things have changed, is my understanding).

I understand that Jason is just doing his job, and I think he is doing it very well (he's in an un-enviable position). I also understand that the details of the legal dispute will probably never see the light of day, so I may never know if Loren has actually lost his ill-gotten gains or not.

I only know two things for certain:

1. It will be a very long time (perhaps never) before I trust anything that CGL or its representatives have to say.
2. Until I know the outcome of the legal dispute in more detail, I simply won't be purchasing anything further from CGL, for my reasons stated above.

I am not speaking for any other fan, just myself. Lurker and Raven don't speak for me, at least.

That said, I'm going to wander off to another thread to continue talking about Shadowrun.
ravensmuse
My words were a little strong, and I apologize for speaking for other fans out there.

But if you think that I'm the only other fan that's upset? That's just sticking your head in the sand. There's plenty of discussion on this topic, and lots of people ticked off at it around the roleplaying world. It's gotten quiet here on Dumpshock? That's because the people ticked off left or went into lurkerdom. Count how many regulars from about seven or eight months ago still post around here regularly.

Fans are pissed, and telling yourself they're not, and trying to stick bandaids on the problem instead of going for the major invasive surgery that's needed? That's screwing the pooch. That's what pisses me off.
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Oct 26 2010, 04:37 PM) *
Fans are pissed, and telling yourself they're not, and trying to stick bandaids on the problem instead of going for the major invasive surgery that's needed? That's screwing the pooch. That's what pisses me off.


To continue the analogy, the invasive surgery is happening but it may take longer than you would like. Wanting Jason to bust into the operating room asking for updates isn't going to help.
otakusensei
QUOTE (Kid Chameleon @ Oct 26 2010, 06:51 PM) *
To continue the analogy, the invasive surgery is happening but it may take longer than you would like. Wanting Jason to bust into the operating room asking for updates isn't going to help.

I'm gonna take off my "Bitter and Angry" hat for second and level here.

How about telling us how long it's going to take? Maybe let the fans in on the road map? To be honest, the silent treatment and the continued slow release schedule is really hurting any attempts IMR is making at making things appear back to normal. If it doesn't look like anything has changed, it's logical to assume that nothing has. Jason can say things to the contrary, but they aren't backed up. Not to a degree that satisfies the people who've been following this issue, and certainly not those of us who are unhappy with the choices IMR has made and the talent that have been lost.

Even if you believe that everyone at IMR is trying to turn things around, the fact that we don't know what's going on only serves to make it appear the people in charge aren't able to do what they need to to save the company and produce quality product. The more time that passes the worse IMR looks. A few token attempts at turning the image around aren't helping, the issues with the gift voucher only stand to make the people left look less professional. I'm not trying to slam anyone on that, it's just the facts of what happens when public mistakes are made and continue to happen.

I don't think it's unreasonable of a consumer to ask for transparency from a private company. It's up to the private company to decide whether transparency will help them in their message or not. The balance is struck when a company figures out how much they can keep private while still keeping the trust of those consumers who promote and buy their product. It's not an easy thing to figure out, and the tendency of companies is to keep things close to the vest until they protect themselves into obscurity and bankruptcy. IMR has the licenses to lean on for now, but they rely on Topps good graces for those, and who can tell how long that will last?

And with that I'm going to put my B&A hat back on and go back to speculating the down fall of IMR and the transfer of the license to better hands.
Kid Chameleon
Well, it's going to take as long as it takes. Sadly none of us have ever dealt with legal and business matters of this magnitude. I thought I was going to close on the foreclosure I bought in two months. After four months I finally moved in. And it's not like these things are all under our control (see the recently closed legal matters). Its easy to wave one's hands and say 'I would make it happen' but in reality it isn't so easy, there are dozens of interested parties all trying to get on the same page.

On the other side, the owners aren't involved in the development schedule, these are two separate issues handled at different levels of the company. The board of directors for GE doesn't decide when the new model of refrigerator is coming out.
Critias
QUOTE (Kid Chameleon @ Oct 26 2010, 10:49 PM) *
The board of directors for GE doesn't decide when the new model of refrigerator is coming out.

Not directly, no, but the decisions they make trickle down throughout the company and affect everyone below them.
sabs
On the Flip Side
I bet there isn't a single Apple Product that Steve Jobs hasn't personally vetted.
etherial
I was conveniently not reading Dumpshock regularly when all this shit went down. I tried reading the other threads, but I got cross-eyed at all the hot lava, venom, and incoherent ranting spewing forth. All I know is that I loved 6WA and bought it.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (etherial @ Oct 27 2010, 03:21 PM) *
I was conveniently not reading Dumpshock regularly when all this shit went down. I tried reading the other threads, but I got cross-eyed at all the hot lava, venom, and incoherent ranting spewing forth. All I know is that I loved 6WA and bought it.


Liked the content, had some issues with execution. nyahnyah.gif
deek
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 26 2010, 11:57 PM) *
Not directly, no, but the decisions they make trickle down throughout the company and affect everyone below them.

We'd like to think that, but its not always the case. I work for a company of 10,000 employees spread throughout about 6-8 cities in about 5 states. In the last, say 5 years, we've merged with a company that had about as many people, our leadership has changed at least twice. I know that my department changed who we report to three times. Lots of changes up at the top, but where I am at, we still come out with 4-8 releases a year, work with the same people...day-to-day, its the same regardless of who my boss reports to or the messages that are coming from the CEO, executive management or the board of directors.

From my limited perspective, IMR got caught with a couple of problems. They weren't reliably paying their freelancers, their president was taking money out of his company's pot without his partners knowing and there was a play to adjust the books unethically with regards to licensing dollars. Where we seem to be at is that a system with checks and balances has been put in place to handle paying freelancers and warn partners if money is being withdrawn. And it sounds like there is more scrutiny being put on the books to make sure the rest of the stuff is right going forward.

No one can make the past not happen. The way I see it, IMR has put the controls in place to not have this happen again. It sounds like some sort of settlement was made to deal with the money withdraws by the president. I think that is a really good outcome, really.

IMR is not like a big company that can just turn over a leaf, give the CEO a big paycheck to walk away and get someone else in. I don't know why people care about the top of management, now that these controls are in place. I guess it sucks that some writing talent was lost in the process, but that's going to happen someday anyways as the line continues to evolve.
emouse
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Oct 23 2010, 05:40 PM) *
The Freelancers that are getting paid now that did -not- threaten to pull their works, are getting paid --because-- of the ones that -DID- Threaten (and some did) Pull their works till they got paid.


And some insisted that this would never happen, that only the ones who pulled their work would ever see any money.

QUOTE
CGL has at current a history of not paying for months and months on projects and that only changed when all this stuff flared up and people started taking them to court or pulling thier works for CGL not living up to it's side of contract.


Hopefully going forward we'll hear from freelancers to let us know if they are or aren't getting paid promptly, so we know if things have really been fixed, or if it's back to business as usual.
emouse
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 15 2010, 10:01 PM) *
So--and I hope this isn't an impossible naive question--does this mean it's *over*?

Aside from the possibility of Topps eventually withdrawing the license, does this mean that the scandal is finally done with? That all the belligerent parties are basically going their separate ways?


From a legal standpoint, yes, but the license deal with Topps is still temporary. There still could be repercussions for IMR.

I think fans want to know that things at IMR have been turned around, and that means seeing a normalized release schedule as well as knowing that freelancers have been paid promptly.
sabs
I don't think most of us care that the freelancers have been paid promptly, other than it effects the quality of the line.

Ancient History's stuff that he pulled? I've read most of it and it was /good/
Now it's all gone, and who knows what will come out in it's place from Catalyst.
emouse
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 27 2010, 08:26 PM) *
I don't think most of us care that the freelancers have been paid promptly, other than it effects the quality of the line.

Ancient History's stuff that he pulled? I've read most of it and it was /good/
Now it's all gone, and who knows what will come out in it's place from Catalyst.


I'm not as fixated on individual contributors. Shadowrun existed before Ancient, and it will go on after him. The main reason he ended up leaving was because of the situation created by IMR being low on funds resulting in people not getting paid and publishing schedules getting pushed back. If IMR gets that fixed then presumably they'll be able to avoid losing future contractors due to the same reason. A reason that has struck the publishers of Shadowrun before, and cost them (FASA) names bigger than Ancient's.
sabs
Ancient was more an example smile.gif than an actual.. OMG!heleft!
I'm sure that several freelancers did what AH did, but not as vocally.

And I do remember the death of FASA well. I've been an avid shadowrun/earthdawn geek since 1989 smile.gif
Cain
See, that's part of the problem. We've all been so fixated on freelancer payment that we forget it's only a symptom. The cause is mismanagement of creative talent. Who wants to buy from the writing equivalent of a sweatshop? Watch talented freelancers become burned out and jaded? We want to see Shadowrun freelancers treated with the utmost respect, not with the bare minimum. And paying on time *is* the bare minimum.
Critias
*sigh* This is really getting silly. No wonder I avoided the previous hojillion threads. I can only blame some weird mixture of morbid curiosity and smoldering indignation, for my visits to this one -- indignation because I keep seeing some pretty wild claims and demands being made, and now a pretty ridiculous condemnation of how freelancers are supposedly being treated.

For starters -- wholly independent of any conversation about Shadowrun, Catalyst, IMR, or anyone else specifically mentioned in this thread -- I just want to say something about freelancing in general. As someone who's done freelance writing for several game companies over the course of several years, I can tell you that "utmost respect" just isn't part of the expected job description with any of them. Aspirations aside, none of us are Stephen King, J. K. Rowling, or Billy Shakespeare (yet), and we know it. Freelance work is what it is.

You write, you get your couple pennies a word, you have some fun adding to the canon of a game universe you (hopefully) enjoy, and that's that. You get a thank you when you meet a deadline, you get another contract if they like your work, and if you know someone at the company personally you indulge in some friendly banter via e-mail when schedules permit. You make a few new friends at conventions, shake a few hands and put faces to names...and...well, that's the job. You get paid peanuts, because you sign a contract accepting peanuts in exchange for your work.

Complaining about an outright lack of pay is all well and good -- as someone who collects that pay, I can understand indignation along those lines! -- but no one gets into freelance writing for ticker tape parades, corporate jets, corner offices, and Swedish massage girls. The honest truth is most people don't find full time work in the gaming industry (of all places) for fancy perks or soft handling. Freelancers are big boys. We know the nature of the business when we approach a company, any company, with a proposal. We don't get into it looking forward to being beaten with sticks or having bamboo shoved under our nails or anything, but as someone who did temp jobs for part of my college career, I can tell you it and freelancing are an awful lot alike. No one gives temps or interns "the utmost respect," and no temp or intern that's cut out for it expects "the utmost respect." No one in the RPG or wargame industry gets "the utmost respect," in the big picture. Let's not have unrealistic expectations, here.

Just like shadowrunners don't get into their business for the medical and dental plan, we freelance writers know full well that "writing equivalent of a sweatshop" is pretty much the whole career description. wink.gif Let's not blame one conveniently target-able game company for the nature of the industry itself, based on one string of unfortunate incidents.

Now, for CGL in particular?

For what it's worth? I can certainly tell you there's absolutely nothing more "sweatshop" about what I'm seeing with CGL than there has been for any of the other game companies I've worked with, at any rate. If anything, the atmosphere has been the most transparent and community-oriented, with all sorts of brainstorming and idea swapping going on, with communication and coordination to help us all be on the same page. Truth be told, it's jarring compared to the "you write this many words about X, you write this many about Y, and when you're done we'll mish-mash them together into a cohesive article. What? No, you two don't need to coordinate or anything, I just coordinated you!" atmosphere that I've run into with several previous companies. There's an almost-overwhelming amount of coordination and communication going on, between document sharing groups, instant messenger services, mailing lists, and plain old emails. CGL has also been right in line with handling contract, NDA, and invoice paperwork, every bit as professional as any business I've dealt with (right up there with Privateer Press, to be honest, which is the only other franchise I've operated with that's been anywhere near this businesslike making sure the t's are crossed and i's are dotted). Whatever happened, happened. I can tell they're working hard not to let it happen again.

I'm not going to claim to know every detail of the crap that's happened in the past. I'm not naive enough to think I'm going to get every detail, no matter how many DS threads I read, how much I scour RPG.net for it, or how many posts I find by AH, FT, Jason Hardy, or anyone else, I hunt down to eagerly devour. What I do know is how I'm getting treated right now, compared to how I was treated by previous Shadowrun line developers, and how I've been treated by other game companies, and I know that just doesn't jive with some of the wild accusations people are throwing around right now.

So, anyways, there. If anyone cares about what someone who's freelanced for other game companies, and is freelancing for CGL right now, feels, there you go.

If y'all will pardon me, I'm off to write.
Mesh
That sounds like a nice ending. Thread closed.
otakusensei
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 28 2010, 02:47 AM) *
...

So, what you're saying is that the industry itself is to blame? And no one who makes these games is any better than IMR?

I handle IT operations for a company large enough to make use of quite a bit of freelancer contractors.

I pay them on time.

I don't fuck around, I get checks out. It's not a matter of hiring Alexander Graham Bell to do your phone install, or not. I pay whoever does the work for me if it's up to the standard of quality that I require, and I do so on time. If I can't afford to hire someone, then I have to reevaluate why I need the work done in the first place.

Being unprofessional is exactly that. Being unprofessional. Pointing fingers and saying that everyone else is doing it is deplorable for someone in IMR's position to do, and ridiculous for anyone who expects payment from them. Professionalism is a social contract and needs to be upheld on both sides of any transaction. Failing to do your part means you're failing to fix the problem. Openly supporting your failure means you're actively working to make the problem worse.

Honestly, what part of supporting unprofessional and abusive practices toward freelancers makes IMR look any better?
Critias
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Oct 28 2010, 10:08 AM) *
I handle IT operations for a company large enough to make use of quite a bit of freelancer contractors.

I pay them on time.

I don't fuck around, I get checks out.

Did you even read what I said -- very specifically -- I was talking about, versus what I said -- very specifically -- I was not? Did you pay any attention at all to what I said I knew, versus what I said I hadn't been involved in and didn't pretend to know the details of? Did you pick up, in the slightest, on the very precise part of Cain's post I was obviously addressing, and the parts of the previous 10 CGL speculation threads I wasn't?

I mean, really?
Jaid
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 28 2010, 11:00 AM) *
Did you even read what I said -- very specifically -- I was talking about, versus what I said -- very specifically -- I was not? Did you pay any attention at all to what I said I knew, versus what I said I hadn't been involved in and didn't pretend to know the details of? Did you pick up, in the slightest, on the very precise part of Cain's post I was obviously addressing, and the parts of the previous 10 CGL speculation threads I wasn't?

I mean, really?

if it helps any, i'd say my summary of what you said would go something like:

"As someone who is currently working as a freelancer for CGL, Critias thinks they're doing a pretty good job of treating their freelancers as well as could be reasonably expected given the nature of the job, and are in fact currently doing better than most other companies he has worked for in the industry."

but then, i suppose i'm not one of the people tearing into CGL for not telling us every last detail of what they're doing. still, perhaps the two line version will actually get read...
Grinder
This thread gets us nowhere any longer.
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