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Adam
Well, I'm obviously a proponent of relatively low PDF prices and letting people share them. But I also believe that electronic books have value based around content and function; just like print books do. They have different functions and roles; gaming and reading aren't one-size-fits-all situations.
deek
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 09:36 AM) *
People who buy only PDFs could say this:

You could say that just being a book is a value, with the quick page flipping and lendability, but I think that is just double-dipping with your consumers.

wink.gif

Yeah, good point.

And I think, Delta has voiced my opinion with production costs. I know how much time and money it costs me to take my PDF to Kinko's and print it in black and white spiral bound. I know how much time and money it costs me to take my PDF and print it on my laser printer (at home or work). I know how much it costs for just the PDF. I know how much it costs for just the book. And I know how much it costs for a combo pack. I like that I have options, for sure, but for my personal tastes, not all of them match with my perceived values.

Now, I am biased, because I don't associate a lot of value to color, artwork or fiction in my game books. If I had an option to purchase a watered-down version of rpg books, for a cheaper price, I would take that and not think twice.

And maybe that is where we are heading? There is a base cost associated with the base "book" and then options are additional costs. If I want to get the full-color hardback book, I can pay for that. If I want soft-bound or plain-paper spiral found, color or not, then I pay a different cost for that? Obviously, to make that a business model, on-demand printing has to step up, but I can see this all being possible in the next 5-10 years.
Adam
PDFs with layers == full version of game, or watered down without artwork/fancy backgrounds to your taste! (Plus, print only the parts you want ...)

There are market confusion reasons not to push multiple versions (color, B&W) of the same book into sales channels, and when it's done it's typically done a) only for core books b) released some time after the "full" version of the core book.

(It would be cool to offer limited numbers of spiral bound core books -- retailers typically hate them, but they're super-useful, IMO.)
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Catadmin @ Jul 6 2010, 09:57 AM) *
On the .pdf versus deadtree debate, I had an interesting discussion with Mike Stackpole last year where he noted that a majority of people who buy .pdf don't buy Kindle, deadtree or iPhone versions. And iPhone downloaders don't buy .pdf, Kindle, deadtree... Etc.


Completely different market. There is no point to owning multiple copies of a novel (aside from possibly a limited edition signed copy or something), while there are many reasons to own multiple copies and/or multiple formats of an RPG book.

QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 10:22 AM) *
PDFs with layers == full version of game, or watered down without artwork/fancy backgrounds to your taste! (Plus, print only the parts you want ...)

There are market confusion reasons not to push multiple versions (color, B&W) of the same book into sales channels, and when it's done it's typically done a) only for core books b) released some time after the "full" version of the core book.

(It would be cool to offer limited numbers of spiral bound core books -- retailers typically hate them, but they're super-useful, IMO.)


My thoughts on this line is what I call "Dirty Books". Strip out the stories, artwork, color backgrounds, and setting fluff, then print it in soft or spiral binding so you can sell it for much cheaper while still maintaining the same profit per unit while (likely) many more units will sell, you get yourself a win-win scenario.

Example/query: The core EP book is listed at $50 retail. If stripping out the extravagances can reduce the price by $20-25 it will be much easier for a group to get the 3-5 copies of the core book needed to make a gaming session run smoothly.
Cabral
Guardians of Order, I believe, had a free b&w d20 anime pdf with a full color print book and a cheap b&w book. Anyone know how that turned out for them? (or if I recollect correctly?)

...And I speculate that Coleman is just a jumping jack possessed by a great form blood spirit.
Adam
Strip out the setting? You probably just want a bare cot in porno sets, too! nyahnyah.gif

I don't have evidence that the cut-down books will sell "many more" units than the full version. They create some annoying logistical problems, such as having two versions of the same rules with entirely different page references. And if a retailer stocks one Eclipse Phase book, what do I want: a damned cool full-color book 'advertising' my game to everyone in the store, or a thinner, less-cool-looking, more likely to get dinged up book?

QUOTE (Cabral @ Jul 6 2010, 01:51 PM) *
Guardians of Order, I believe, had a free b&w d20 anime pdf with a full color print book and a cheap b&w book. Anyone know how that turned out for them? (or if I recollect correctly?)

I was working at Guardians of Order when they did that. They tried that a couple times, first with Silver Age Sentinels and then with BESM d20: doing a deluxe full-color version and the regular B&W hardcover. They also released "Stingy Gamer Editions" of both SAS and BESM d20; softcover, almost no artwork, very utilitarian layout, 2-color covers, $9.99.

I think it caused market dilution/confusion, and even with the cheaper production costs of the Stingy Gamer Editions, there's only a few bucks profit per book there.
phillosopherp
Okay normally I would catch up by reading everything, but since I am behind pretty big time (Last I read anything was the end of 9 as I had a Grandfather die and can't be bothered right now to go back and read it all) can I get a recap of anything that has actually happened? Thanks in advance!
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 11:59 AM) *
Strip out the setting? You probably just want a bare cot in porno sets, too! nyahnyah.gif


As long as there's a hot chick there, I'm good.

QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 11:59 AM) *
I don't have evidence that the cut-down books will sell "many more" units than the full version. They create some annoying logistical problems, such as having two versions of the same rules with entirely different page references. And if a retailer stocks one Eclipse Phase book, what do I want: a damned cool full-color book 'advertising' my game to everyone in the store, or a thinner, less-cool-looking, more likely to get dinged up book?


The cut books will increase total sales, especially if you can cut the price by more than 40% (and when you consider you're cutting about a third of the pages from the EP core book for the "Dirty" version, you can seriously cut costs, both in production and distribution) as most gaming groups I've encountered only have one or two of each book due to people not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars for all the basic books that most RPG systems utilize. If it was under a hundred for all the books, then more people would get copies, and in some cases the GMs would be more willing to shell out for a few extra copies for the group.

I suppose my market viewpoint may be skewed as I haven't had a FLGS here since before FASA folded (the closest thing is a store that sells board games with a five foot wide six foot high section with a few dozen RPG books, and the Barnes and Noble with their spinny display of DnD books) so online ordering is the primary method of acquiring RPG books. And I'm not seeing the difficulty in identifying the "Dirty" version and differentiating it from the full version ("Eclipse Phase" and "Eclipse Phase; Dirty Rules Book").
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 12:59 PM) *
I don't have evidence that the cut-down books will sell "many more" units than the full version. They create some annoying logistical problems, such as having two versions of the same rules with entirely different page references. And if a retailer stocks one Eclipse Phase book, what do I want: a damned cool full-color book 'advertising' my game to everyone in the store, or a thinner, less-cool-looking, more likely to get dinged up book?


I think the only way this could get cleared up would be with a lot of market research, something game companies don't have the money for.
Adam
There are a lot of complexities in offering a "Dirty" version. Production of it isn't free. Re-indexing. The confusion when three players are trying to find the Beam Weapon rules but they have two different versions of the book. The potential that the "Dirty" version will take away sales from the "Sexy" version, and thus drive the price of the sexy version further up or force it into non profitability, etc.

It's something that has to be very carefully considered.

$15 for the PDF and $35 in toner -- the cost of one more printed copy of the core book -- can do a lot for your gaming table. smile.gif
tete
I'm actually considering looking into spiral binding and going pdf only. My color laser printer just broke so I gotta buy another one and man are they a lot cheaper now... I may have the cash to look into my own binding station.
Delta
QUOTE (Catadmin @ Jul 6 2010, 03:57 PM) *
So, while many people on Dumpshock may purchase both versions, that statistic doesn't necessarily hold true for the entire SR fan community.


I'll be the first to admit I've never, ever so far bought a PDF version of a book I also bought in hardcopy. That's not because I'm completely averse to the idea, I'd really like to have some of my rulebooks as PDFs as well, but the amount I'd be ready to pay for that is limited. If I get the offer to get a PDF with the hardcopy for, let's say about 5$ extra, I'd be more than ready to buy that. But honestly, not much more, because the way I see it, I already paid for that book, I really can't be bothered to pay twice for stuff like artwork, content, layout and so on.
deek
I've purchased them both once. And that was only because my SR4A pre-order was over a month late. I ended up biting the bullet and just bought the PDF so I could use the errata and updates in my active game. I was going to cancel my pre-order but eventually just let it be. Unfortunately, the hard copy arrived about two weeks after our SR4 campaign ended and I started up a DnD 4E game...

I did end up purchasing Arsenal PDF only and printing it out myself with spiral binding. It was black & white with a cardboard back cover and a clear plastic sheet over the front cover. I can't remember what the PDF cost, but the printing was under $20 which I think ended up being $5 more than if I just bought the hardcopy (but about 40% less than if I had gone with the combo).

My thoughts are similar with yours, Delta. If I pay for the "book" whether hardcopy or PDF, I should be able to use it however I want. Whether that is scan the hardcopy into PDF or take the PDF and print out hardcopies. The problem I run into is that my time is valuable too, so these DIY options can't take a huge chunk of my time and be worth it.
Synner667
I think this is a time of transition...
...From hardcopy and static PDFs to Print On Demand, interactive PDFs and Tablet PC applications.

Hardcopy is lovely and collectible and aesthetically pleasing...
...But having all your rules in something that's lightweightand portable, with easy searching for those rules questions, floorplans you can show and draw on, customisable with probably cheaper rulebooks will be very tempting.
Adam
QUOTE (deek @ Jul 6 2010, 03:10 PM) *
My thoughts are similar with yours, Delta. If I pay for the "book" whether hardcopy or PDF, I should be able to use it however I want. Whether that is scan the hardcopy into PDF or take the PDF and print out hardcopies. The problem I run into is that my time is valuable too, so these DIY options can't take a huge chunk of my time and be worth it.


I gotta think that the time it would take to scan even parts of a print book is worth more than the $15 that a core PDF typically costs now (a fair number of companies have been dropping prices for core stuff the last six month ... perhaps Eclipse Phase started a bit of a trend.).

Convenience is worth paying for. Electronic products are about more than their content, just like print products are. The x-factors are simply different between the formats.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Adam @ Jul 6 2010, 07:46 PM) *
I gotta think that the time it would take to scan even parts of a print book is worth more than the $15 that a core PDF typically costs now (a fair number of companies have been dropping prices for core stuff the last six month ... perhaps Eclipse Phase started a bit of a trend.).

Convenience is worth paying for. Electronic products are about more than their content, just like print products are. The x-factors are simply different between the formats.


Egh, no kidding. Getting a good quality scan from print to PDF is a royal pain.
Jaid
i was under the impression the document is created as a PDF and then sent to the printer, a conversion process which is rather less involved (open file, print).
Adam
No, documents are not created as PDFs. Most publishing companies now are using Adobe InDesign or QuarkXpress, which outputs to PDF (and other formats). But: the PDF that goes to a commercial printer and the PDF that goes on sale to gamers are _very_ different, and the way documents are made is constantly evolving (and in some cases taking more time/effort, and in some cases, less time) to better accomodate the expanding features of for-sale PDFs (such as layers, hyperlinked TOCs/indexes/etc.)
Jaid
allow me to clarify: in PDFs that make no use of the PDF as anything more than a format to store words (for example, no hyperlinks, no embedded flash, etc) are pretty much the same as the book. if i was to go to my PDFs of shadowrun books right now, and print them, i would get something at least reasonably similar to what the printing company gets (and if i had printing equipment worth enough money, the same quality of materials, and bookbinding machines, it would probably look exactly the same), wouldn't i?

now i'll certainly agree that if the PDF has some significant difference (embedded video or audio would be pretty nifty) to take advantage of the electronic nature, then yes it should definitely have a distinct value all it's own.

but if the PDF is basically just the exact same as the physical book, only it hasn't been printed out yet... probably not worth a whole awful lot more when included in a bundle, in my opinion.
Adam
The DPI on a copy that goes to a commercial printer is a lot higher than the DPI of the typical for-sale PDF. The PDFs that go to a printer are typically about 1MB per page, and render relatively slowly (just did a quick test on my iPad with Sunward: the PDF I used for proofing renders page flips instantly, the PDF for print takes 4 seconds to flip a page.)

But yes, a publisher could dump out a PDF that had no additional features: no bookmarks, hyperlinks, layers, etc.

And yes, you can buy a PDF and print it, getting something that basically resembles the print book. If that's all you want out of a digital file -- a vector for getting a single printed-out copy -- then they're probably not worth a lot to you.
Cabral
Just the fact that the PDF is searchable is often huge. Not to mention the portability of the PDF versus hardcopy. I take Arsenal with me to work because I have a copy of the PDF on my phone. I never really considered PDF copies, but with ny new phone, I am looking at them in a new light. I suspect as commlin-err-smartphones become more popular and widespread, so will PDFs/ebooks.
Sid
Just a heads up: Was browsing the Battletech forums, and figured you guys might want to know about the Podcast Randall Bills is interviewed in. The thread on ClassicBattletech's Forum is here.

Direct link is at http://www.purplepawn.com/2010/07/paper-mo...e-labs-finally/

Apparently it starts about 30min into the Podcast, and Randall talks for about 90mins. Most of it's about Shadowrun, so I figured some of you would be interested. As for the situation, the cliff notes in the Battletech thread says the extension is for 6 months, (So what, Jan '11?) and they're currently negotiating for a (un)fortunately 3-5 lease (whether that's good or bad, I'm sure is personal opinion and has been beaten to death on here already).

I personally haven't listened to it yet, but probably will later. Have fun?
Cain
I do both pdf and hardcopy when I can. I'm guilty of buying just the pdf and printing it out at Kinko's, but that's had mixed results. Adam will remember that one, I think. He was very cool about it.

As far as cheap copies goes, my understanding is that the Explorer's Edition of the Savage Worlds rules is selling briskly, due in no small part to the small price tag ($9.99). It's over a hundred pages of full-color art, and contains the full Savage Worlds rule system. IIRC, the pdf is available in normal and print-friendly versions, bundled for free as part of a legit purchase. They also do a free print-friendly bundle with most of their pdf products. I've been saying for a long time that SR4.5 needs to follow this model, and offer a print-friendly version bundled with the normal one. So, Adam, may I ask what Pinnacle is doing differently, that allows them to bundle print-friendly versions of their product for free?
Adam
The PDFs I produce for Posthuman Studios utilize layers that can be selectively turned on/off so you can create your own printer-friendly version. This is far more efficient than outputting multiple versions of the file.

Is Pinnacle giving free PDFs to print purchasers? I see their online store offering print + PDF bundles on their site and I see copies of Explorer's Edition for sale for $9.99, the same as the print edition.
Cain
All I can say is that when I've bought pdfs or pdf/print bundles from them, they've included a print-friendly pdf alongside the normal one. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "free", but it does mean I get an additional and different copy of the product without paying extra.

Also, Adam, you know how computer illiterate I am, so you know I'm not being sarcastic. How do I turn off layers?
Adam
Oh, you mean that when you get the PDF, you get a print-friendly one "free" with it, not that all the PDFs are free. Gotcha.

In Acrobat, go to View -> Navigation Panels -> Layers. This will open up a sidebar panel that shows the layers in the document, if there are more than 1. Click the eye next to each layer to hide/display it.
Cain
Can't get it to work. I can find the menu option, but I can't get any layers to open.

But I think this is a bit of a tangent. I'll keep trying, and if I get any more stuck, I'll PM you. Sound OK?

Anyway, back on topic, Adam obviously knows more about the layout of game books than anyone here. Could you surmise what Pinnacle is doing differently, that makes laying out two different versions efficient for them? As opposed to what was/is done at CGL? I don't think you'll be revealing any trade secrets by discussing layout techniques.
Grinder
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 7 2010, 06:36 AM) *
Anyway, back on topic, Adam obviously knows more about the layout of game books than anyone here. Could you surmise what Pinnacle is doing differently, that makes laying out two different versions efficient for them? As opposed to what was/is done at CGL? I don't think you'll be revealing any trade secrets by discussing layout techniques.


Is this thread about layout issues?
phillosopherp
QUOTE (Sid @ Jul 6 2010, 04:17 PM) *
Just a heads up: Was browsing the Battletech forums, and figured you guys might want to know about the Podcast Randall Bills is interviewed in. The thread on ClassicBattletech's Forum is here.

Direct link is at http://www.purplepawn.com/2010/07/paper-mo...e-labs-finally/

Apparently it starts about 30min into the Podcast, and Randall talks for about 90mins. Most of it's about Shadowrun, so I figured some of you would be interested. As for the situation, the cliff notes in the Battletech thread says the extension is for 6 months, (So what, Jan '11?) and they're currently negotiating for a (un)fortunately 3-5 lease (whether that's good or bad, I'm sure is personal opinion and has been beaten to death on here already).

I personally haven't listened to it yet, but probably will later. Have fun?



Okay so I decided to listen to this little talk, and am I the only one that got pissed right out the gate. Seems to me like Randall is trying to throw Jenifer under the bus and basically blame her for everything that happened. Anyway that is what I hear him doing. This is just plan BS, and more and more I just can't believe the way that this is all going down. More and more even though I love Shadowrun completely this company is making it almost impossible to buy their products due to the nature of the individuals making the game. Jeez guy could it have been you know the fault of the guy that took out the money? Maybe he should have been able to say to himself, "well I know that all this can't all be mine I should sit down a do some math here"... its just amazing!
Cardul
QUOTE (phillosopherp @ Jul 7 2010, 02:34 AM) *
Okay so I decided to listen to this little talk, and am I the only one that got pissed right out the gate. Seems to me like Randall is trying to throw Jenifer under the bus and basically blame her for everything that happened. Anyway that is what I hear him doing. This is just plan BS, and more and more I just can't believe the way that this is all going down. More and more even though I love Shadowrun completely this company is making it almost impossible to buy their products due to the nature of the individuals making the game. Jeez guy could it have been you know the fault of the guy that took out the money? Maybe he should have been able to say to himself, "well I know that all this can't all be mine I should sit down a do some math here"... its just amazing!



Jennifer Harding was not their original book keeper though. Not sure who it was, but Jennifer Harding was upped
to their book-keeper late last year. She was the middle book-keeper. And, admittedly, the book-keeper before
Jennifer Harding does have some responsibility for not catching what was happening and saying something about
it. Just as David Stansel-Garner has some responsibility for the Freelancers not getting paid as he was the
Operations Manager, and seeing stuff gets paid on time is what an Operations Manager does. The Colemans have
responsibilty for not thinking about what they were taking out of the bank. The other owners have responsibility for
not wanting to see the books more often. In essence, it is a situation where, ultimately, everyone probably has
some responsibility regarding the situation. Jennifer Harding, having come in after everything had already
happened, is probably the only blameless one in the whole situation.

But, you know what? Mistakes happen. It sounds like CGL is trying to avoid those errors again. It should not
happen again.
Ryu
Regarding that podcast (intersting stuff around minute 35):
There are apparently different opinions on the duties of management. It is really simple. You manage it, you are responsible for it working. Even if your staff does not perform, you are responsible. You hire staff too late, your responsibility. Liquidity control? Guess what. Paying bills? Also. "Not noticing red flags" will get a wageslave promoted or fired.
Warlordtheft
I listened too. It wasn't exactly throwing Jennifer under the bus (though the impression I had lends it to be her as the book keeper not up to the task, but he never mentions her by name). As Randall pointed out, they were basically not paying attention to the books as closely as they should and not being as business savvy about accounting procedures. They are not the first small business to run into these kinds of issues.
Endroren
EDIT: Yanked my post. Saw after I posted that the mods closed down the PDF part of this discussion.
Bull
Yeah, the book-keeper mentioned as "Not up to the task" and the one he puts some blame on was not Jennifer.

Bull
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 7 2010, 04:59 PM) *
Yeah, the book-keeper mentioned as "Not up to the task" and the one he puts some blame on was not Jennifer.

Bull


That may be, but it's ultimately the Controller's job (and the CFO's, or President's, whoever's ultimately in charge of zebookz) to be up to that same task. Accounting standards and corporate law changes in the past 15 years or so have put the onus squarely on the CFO/Controller to make sure everything is right, or it's their ass.

The bookkeeper didn't do it right? Okay, believable. That the bookkeeper's boss didn't review the books and catch it? No no no.
Lansdren
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 05:07 PM) *
That may be, but it's ultimately the Controller's job (and the CFO's, or President's, whoever's ultimately in charge of zebookz) to be up to that same task. Accounting standards and corporate law changes in the past 15 years or so have put the onus squarely on the CFO/Controller to make sure everything is right, or it's their ass.

The bookkeeper didn't do it right? Okay, believable. That the bookkeeper's boss didn't review the books and catch it? No no no.



Its a fair point, the international standards are bastards at time for trying to get rid of the loop hole of someone below me fucked up but its not my fault.

At the end of the day the boss earns the big money because he has the big responsibility
emouse
QUOTE (Lansdren @ Jul 7 2010, 04:37 PM) *
At the end of the day the boss earns the big money because he has the big responsibility


These are all sentiments that are nice but don't necessarily bear any resemblance to reality.

If anyone at IMR had been doing their fiscal duties well, there probably wouldn't have been fiscal mismanagement. There's plenty of blame to go around. Randall has previously admitted to some culpability for not paying attention as he should have. I haven't listened to the interview to hear what is said about the prior book keeper.

That's why I thought it was pretty important early on to establish when Jen started working as book keeper. She had only been at the job months, and the financial review apparently started while she was there. The majority, if not all of the questionable draws were done before her time. She was in the unenviable position of having to clean up someone else's mess.

Previous statements from IMR, which sounded like they had been drawn up by Randall seemed sympathetic to Jen and others who quit around the same time.
crizh
I was under the impression that part of the problem here was that CGL lacked any sort of proper book-keeper until Jen was brought in to sort through the mess that years of slap-dash procedure had produced.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 7 2010, 06:26 PM) *
I was under the impression that part of the problem here was that CGL lacked any sort of proper book-keeper until Jen was brought in to sort through the mess that years of slap-dash procedure had produced.


That could very well be - but that's dangerous, as we've seen. I do have a problem believing that they didn't know proper accounting procedure if they had the license for that long; their legal department is going to know what can get them into trouble and advise them on how to continue.
emouse
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 07:28 PM) *
That could very well be - but that's dangerous, as we've seen. I do have a problem believing that they didn't know proper accounting procedure if they had the license for that long; their legal department is going to know what can get them into trouble and advise them on how to continue.


If they didn't have an accountant, do you really think they had a legal department?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (emouse @ Jul 7 2010, 07:43 PM) *
If they didn't have an accountant, do you really think they had a legal department?


Well they're in court, so...yes?

Honestly, in many circles 'bookkeeper' and 'accountant' are interchangable. An accountant keeps the books. Either may or may not have a CPA, CMA, or IA cert. There are talented and horrible accountants and bookkeepers.

No matter what, you have somebody keeping the records, and somebody looking over their shoulder to verify it. It's a cost of doing business. Either you're doing it in-house, or you have a firm doing it for you. In this case, there was an in-house bookkeeper. IMR/CGL is not small enough to do their accounting on a cash basis, and if they're a public corporation then both bookkeeping and internal auditing are required by the SEC.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 01:00 PM) *
Well they're in court, so...yes?

Honestly, in many circles 'bookkeeper' and 'accountant' are interchangable. An accountant keeps the books. Either may or may not have a CPA, CMA, or IA cert. There are talented and horrible accountants and bookkeepers.

No matter what, you have somebody keeping the records, and somebody looking over their shoulder to verify it. It's a cost of doing business. Either you're doing it in-house, or you have a firm doing it for you. In this case, there was an in-house bookkeeper. IMR/CGL is not small enough to do their accounting on a cash basis, and if they're a public corporation then both bookkeeping and internal auditing are required by the SEC.


There is a huge difference between a Legal Department and a Lawyer form a Firm representing them in legal disputes... one is in-house, and the other is not... My guess is that if they were wroking out of a residential house, they had no legal department... There are also differences between Public Companies (Traded on the various Stock Exchanges) and Private Corporations (those that are not)... The rules are different for both.

Keep the Faith
Doc Chase
Yes, yes. I know that. I do have a problem believing that anyone was going to get a hold of the BT/SR licenses and not have some form of accurate bookkeeping (and probably at least a lawyer on retainer to make sure the transfer and such was done right).
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 02:00 PM) *
IMR/CGL is not small enough to do their accounting on a cash basis, and if they're a public corporation then both bookkeeping and internal auditing are required by the SEC.


IMR/CGL is not a publicly traded company.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 01:25 PM) *
Yes, yes. I know that. I do have a problem believing that anyone was going to get a hold of the BT/SR licenses and not have some form of accurate bookkeeping (and probably at least a lawyer on retainer to make sure the transfer and such was done right).



Your belief is not required for the truth as that's more or less exactly what happened. I know it's hard to believe but some things in this world, especially in a low margin biz like gaming tend to get done on a handshake or short contract system. Topps likely gave them a license contract, a lawyer was likely hired to review it at some point, the rest as they say is history.
Catadmin
Bookkeepers cost money. Small company just starting up? They usually figure they can handle their own books for a while, only going to the accountant on a yearly basis (if they can't figure out their taxes on their own) until they get enough money to hire a bookkeeper.

But one thing leads to another and suddenly company peeps are too busy trying to keep up to remember they were supposed to hire bookkeepers, lawyers, and the french maid service...

I'm speaking generally, not specifically, BTW. And I've seen it happen.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 01:25 PM) *
Yes, yes. I know that. I do have a problem believing that anyone was going to get a hold of the BT/SR licenses and not have some form of accurate bookkeeping (and probably at least a lawyer on retainer to make sure the transfer and such was done right).


But that does seem to be the case...

No worries though... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 7 2010, 08:52 PM) *
But that does seem to be the case...

No worries though... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith


Bah.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 7 2010, 01:55 PM) *
Bah.


Heheheh... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Adam
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 7 2010, 12:36 AM) *
Anyway, back on topic, Adam obviously knows more about the layout of game books than anyone here. Could you surmise what Pinnacle is doing differently, that makes laying out two different versions efficient for them?


I have no idea a) what Pinnacle's "print-friendly" PDFs look like, as I don't play or buy any Pinnacle games (I have a single print copy of Explorer's Edition), and so b) I can't surmise how they created them and how much additional work went into them.
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