He'd probably kill me if he knew that I was using his moniker for a character that was a manufacturer for custom-made Pixie-sized products.

Fabulous weaponry for the tiny living doll.

Latest news: The judge has signed the agreement:
http://ia331218.us.archive.org/3/items/gov...504666.31.0.pdf
The lawsuit is officialy over.

Proof once again that the only way to get money out of CGL is to threaten them.

Just because Loren L. Coleman did not have to make a public apology, does not mean he "got away with it"

As far as I know, there has been no detailed public information on whatever private restitution he has already made, or has agreed to make in the future.

With the exception, of course, of the other freelancers who have been paid in recent months.

Jason H.

...because everyone and their mom found out that many many freelancers hadn't been paid in months and sometime years, and they threatened to withhold work until they did get paid.

I understand you have a narrative to which you are attached. However, many people who did not threaten to withhold their work have been paid.

Jason H.

No, as part of a plea deal a person (not just a celebrity) can agree to make apologies or statements in lieu of jail time. But compelling someone to do so runs afoul of basic fifth amendment protections. There has always got to be a carrot and stick arrangement.

Scabs get paid at the same rate as strikers.

I think I agree with Ravensmuse. This is causing a lot of people to lose their passion for Shadowrun, and that's a crying shame. As line developer, do you intend to do anything about it?

Because you had to prove to Topps and almost a judge that CGL can and is willing to pay its debts/expenses in a timely manner or else lose your business and license agreement. Again, they are only getting paid because you guys were directly threatened.

I'll keep releasing product, and I will work to make it good. That's the main thing I can do from my position.

One other thing I will do, though, is request that you not take your anger out on the freelancers by calling them names like "scabs." It's unfair to them, and it ignores the fact that newer writers and veteran writers are working together on books like War! and Spy Games. If you're mad at Catalyst, you can call me or Randall or Loren names if you really feel the need to. There's no reason to take it out on the freelancers.



As I mentioned, there is a narrative to which some people have been attached, and they're not going to give it up immediately. That's fine. It just means we need to establish a long-term track record of paying people more promptly, which is what a lot of the systems we have put in place over the past half year are designed to do.

Jason H.

I, for One, say... "Congratulations on the turn around and Good Luck"
I look forward to the upcoming releases with great anticipation...

While I think it's good that they're getting paid -now- I don't disagree with the viewpoint.

I think the 'scabs' thing was more a general statement to relate to the payment of the freelancers. Not infact calling the freelancer's scabs. The point is true, both still get paid. The Freelancers that are getting paid now that did -not- threaten to pull their works, are getting paid --because-- of the ones that -DID- Threaten (and some did) Pull their works till they got paid. CGL has at current a history of not paying for months and months on projects and that only changed when all this stuff flared up and people started taking them to court or pulling thier works for CGL not living up to it's side of contract. It's good that people are getting paid now. Don't get me wrong, but there seems to be a very clear line of causal and effect here.

Personally I think you're standing up there and getting splattered with other people's shit, Jason. Which... takes some doing. I don't think I could take other people's lumps like you are for the company. I hope they're paying you well. You're doing so (( taking the crap flung at others for them)) Quite well and with more dignity than many could. You've kept Class (( in the posts I've read. I don't profess to read them all. I took off about the last 3 threads on this topic. lol)) Keep that up.

I wasn't taking my anger out on the freelancers. I'll point out that the freelancer strike benefited everyone, even those who didn't strike.

So, no fan appreciation releases, no bonus support for Missions, no con giveaways, no enticements to draw in new players. Just more product that increasing numbers of people won't buy. Sorry, but as line developer, you've got to be concerned with the big picture, not just putting out shiny product.


Even I wouldn't be so cruel. Saying that they release product is a "turnaround" goes too far.

Which is YOUR opinion, not mine...

I, for one, like what I am seeing, even if it is not perfect. And really, when is anything ever perfect anyways?... I like the majority of the product coming out (Some of it I just would not use)... You may not like what is out there, and that is great for you... I, fortunately, do not have to agree with you on this...

It really Sounds like you are wanting Free stuff there Cain (Bonus Support for Mission, Fan Appreciation "stuff", Con Giveaways, and other enticements), with a lot of fanafare about how CGL is oh so appreciative thrown in for good measure (or maybe you are wanting your Ego Stroked a bit, I do not really know)... Whatever it may be, I really do not think that you are going to get your wishes on this one...

Have a great day there Cain...

You're putting words in my mouth. When I say "releasing product," that covers a whole range of things. I apologize for not being more clear about that. We do con giveaways regularly--I just ran games at a con, and people who played got coupons for the Battleshop. We also have the special Appetite for Vengeance food drive event coming for the holidays, as mentioned on the Shadowrun4.com site and the Missions facebook page. Missions season 4 is slated to start in December, with tie-ins to what's happening in the plot books. I also have some other products batting around in my head, and we've got the eBook line getting moving very soon . . . So there's lots in the hopper.

@Tymeaus and Pepsi Jedi, thanks for the kind words. And Pepsi Jedi, as far as the reasons people are being paid now, that's why I mentioned that the only real solution is in the long-term--not only paying people now, but continuing to pay people as time goes along, and showing a clear commitment to doing so.

Jason H.

So, you like Loren L Coleman getting away scot-free after what he did to Shadowrun.


Post reported for trolling.


And how much of that is designed to win back the many disillusioned fans this debacle has left you with? Not that I'm blaming you for it, just sayin'.

You're sure not coming off that way, just for the record.

All of it, really. I figure what people want, whether they're a new fan or a longtime fan, is a good game, with products that come out regularly, and lots of fun things to do. I figure what people got into the game for in the first place was to have fun; what I owe them is as many different possibilities as I can come up with to have fun with Shadowrun.

Oh, and did I mention the voucher Battleshop customers are getting right now so they can try one of our new PDF products for free? There are good things available now, but I'd recommend waiting a few days until This Old Drone comes out . . .

Jason H.

That may be, but I'm not responsible for how others take my posts, if they push past face value. I'm not blaming Jason Hardy for the mess he's in, I just want to see something that'll bring my passion for Shadowrun back. So far, I'm not seeing it.

And that's fine, you can keep on like you've been keepin' on, but I figured -- since you were concerned enough to post a disclaimer -- you'd want to know just how hostile you're coming off, lately, is all. If you're going to be touchy enough to report Tymaeus for trolling, I thought maybe you'd want to know how your posts might be being taken, too.

I think this is a hilarious, choice of both words and actions. This whole scenario played out in front of everyone, here on Dumpshock and beyond, and it's pretty much a matter of public record via various court records - which can be pulled up with a moment's notice. Or would you like a recap of everything that's happened in these past CGL "Speculation" threads? No. You'd rather sit here with your hands over your ears and chanting "la la la, never happened."

But hey - this "narrative" is right here, in each and everyone of these CGL threads. The facts speak for themselves.

And those facts? Show that CGL didn't pay until they were forced to. Until they were, they were willing to do everything under their power to pretend nothing happened.

Just saying,

A really disappointed fan of Shadowrun.

The last thing I'm going to do is pretend it never happened. And if you can excuse a flash of emotion for a moment, I'm the last person in the world who needs a recap of what's happened, as this is my job we're talking about, and as such it affects me in a pretty significant way. I keep a neutral tone on forums for a reason, but don't mistake that for a lack of memory.

But this is what I'm talking about with narratives. Yes, there are events that happened. There are also things that were not made public and are not going to be made public for various reasons. With the narrative you have chosen, you believe that my reasons for acting the way I am are that I'm just trying to sweep everything under the rug. From my perspective, there are some things I view as not for public airing, and some things that I don't have that option with--it's simply not my place to discuss internal operations. But rather than take that into account, rather than look at any different motives I might have, you decide to go for the narrative that I'm oblivious to what's going on.

I understand why some of these narratives exist, and it's your right to believe them. I also understand that I'm not going to change them immediately. What I've been emphasizing is that if perspectives are going to change, they will change over the long term--as product comes out, as people get paid, and as people have fun playing Shadowrun. That's where my focus has to be.

Jason H.

Definitely your perrogative...
Have a nice Day Cain...

Two things here Jason -

One, your use of narrative, which comes off as, "that's a cute story. Here's mine." It kind of comes off as condescending to the whole situation - I am a customer, and a deeply loyal Shadowrun fan, which saw a situation come to light where the company publishing one of my favorite games ended up revealing a whole lot of ugly, terrible stuff. I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about it, and understand that there are aspects that you are not allowed to share. I work in a job where I have to deal with deeply personal information all the time - I completely understand.

But there were a lot of accusations there that CGL chooses to completely unaddress - namely that your CEO had his hand in the piggy bank, and no one in the company is choosing to do anything about it. And the crap that came out? Losing valuable and appreciated people in the process, several nasty accusations back and forth, and an email that basically said, "hey, we know he did bad, but it's totally cool: he's really, really sorry" is kind of against the pale.

The mere fact that the company chooses to do nothing about any of this other than to say "no comment" is NOT the actions of a company that wants to engender trust. We know what happened - we've seen the facts. You want to say the narrative perspective is different between us both? I can agree to that - but the facts, all of them published over the course of these last ten CGL threads - are right there for everyone to dissect and analyze. If my "narrative" reflects the narrative of people who believe that CGL is doing nothing but damage to the Shadowrun license, then that's my narrative - but if you want me to return to purchasing product and trusting you again, start making some moves. Address the points fans and once fans and once authors and outsiders bring up with something other than "no comment, don't worry, trust us" and maybe you'll get some results.

Because for right now? All of this seems like nothing more than smoke and mirrors to placate us angry folk until we "forget about it" and you can go back to business as usual.

Prove me wrong by being open, honest, and transparent, and I'll stop with my "narrative".

Honest question here.

For the folks all claiming that Coleman "got off scot-free", how exactly do you know that?

Did someone leak the details of the settlement or something?





-k

If my use of the word narrative seemed condescending, I apologize; that was not the intent. I understand that people have their perspectives on events, and they might not mesh with mine, and that was my way of saying that we each have our narratives, and neither view is going to just disappear because one or the other of us does not agree with it.

There are points I can--and have--addressed, but other things that, for a variety of reasons, I can't. Is everything the same at Catalyst? No--changes have been made. One thing that dismays me is that changes being made were referred to in the letter from Randall that you very cavalierly dismiss. There was much more in that letter than "he's sorry, so it's cool"; reducing it to that does not do justice to Randall and what he wrote.

Things are working differently. Payment procedures, contracting procedures, and other financial operations have changed. Audits have been sent to freelancers to get an accurate picture of who is owed what, and to set specific plans to pay everyone what they are owed (and a large portion of the back debt has already been paid). I can't offer all the details, again for multiple reasons. One is that I don't know all the details; I'm busy enough with my own job, and overseeing the re-arrangement of administration, especially from my remote location, is not easy. Also, some of it is simply confidential. People are private about their finances; I'm hesitant to offer any details about payments in public. But new people with considerable accounting experience and skills have been brought in and have been leading the re-arranging of internal procedures.

But there's a reason I keep talking about getting back to business, and it's not just so that people will ignore what happened. It's because if practices continue as they had, business as usual will be impossible. Writers, authors, and freelancers will not work with us, staff turnover would continue, and books would not be printed. And then Catalyst would lose the Shadowrun license. The only way to get to where we want to be is to fix the problems that were present. If books come out regularly, it's because the normal processes of contracting, printing, and paying are taking place. If freelancers want to continue working for us over time, it is because we will be treating them as they should be treated. That's why I keep emphasizing that perspective--so that you don't have to take my word for it. If books and other products come out, if we do our job, then that means that processes are working better than they had been in the past.

Jason H.

One thing to remember, Raven... CGL is a Private Company. We as consumers have no right to ask for full transparency. Would it be nice? Hell yes. However, in the end, what we want and what will be are not always the same.

I got an email that mentioned a voucher, but I didn't actually get a voucher. More accurately, I got 3 emails over 19 minutes that all mentioned a voucher, but no voucher. It seems those darn editing errors creep into everything. ...

I know some vouchers have come through--check your spam filter to see if it got caught there. If it didn't, let me know.

Jason H.

The settlement details are a matter of public record. I believe someone gave the PACER link earlier in this thread.

The document had no details on the settlement, simply noted that the settlement was completed and the judge signed off on the order.

When you're shooting for the impossible, might as well shoot for the moon. I don't expect it, but it's worth at least asking.

Jason:

Let me be the first to tell you that I'm happy that you're looking to establish a system in which the company does what it's supposed to do. You do work, you get paid - that's one hundred percent how things are supposed to work.

However, you're curing the symptoms, and not the cause. Loren L. Coleman still has a part in this company. You and I disagree about this. And until LLC is removed from the equation, those symptoms are going to continue to rise up, no matter what systems or goodwill you generate.

That right there is the crux of the argument. Remove Coleman, and magically, things might improve for the better.

Ah, simple solutions for complex problems. It's like politics!

I also got three emails, but none included a voucher. I checked my spam filters; No other emails stuck there.

You're right--we disagree about that. Additionally, from where I sit, there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I couldn't remove Loren if I wanted to. The best I could do is quit myself, which doesn't really change a whole lot (though I suppose it would make a few people happy). Most importantly to me, though, it would just slow down the Shadowrun line, slow down the generation of income, and slow down payments to freelancers. From my perspective, the problem is not paying people; if I do things to continue making it so people don't get paid, I'm not helping.

Jason H.

Same here. I wasn't all that worried about it, but since others are having the same porblem, I figured I'd mention that it happened to me as well.

That raises an interesting question. Do you believe in Shadowrun, in Catalyst, or both?

I think you believe in Shadowrun. I don't know if you believe in Catalyst. Certainly every time I've asked you for a demonstration of faith in Catalyst, you've deflected it to a question about Shadowrun.

You're asking us to not just believe in the game line, but in the company behind it. Why should we put our faith in Catalyst? And don't say "Shadowrun", that's clearly not enough anymore.

What do you want the guy to do, Cain, talk bad about his employers on a public forum? How many other businesspeople do you interact with like this, day to day? Do you hound the manager at your local McDonald's like this until he apologizes for the unhealthy food? Hassle your bank manager until he admits he works for a soulless money monster? Harass your own boss until he, in writing and in public, badmouths those above him on the corporate ladder?

I don't know if there's something unique about RPGs and wargames when they cross streams with internet forums, or what, but I think some of you guys really just have some unrealistic expectations about what a businessman can, or should, say about his company on a public forum. In fairness, it's not an issue that's unique to any one poster here (so I apologize to Cain for being the one I'm singling out this way, but he's the most recent and so the natural "target" or whatever), and it's not even unique just to Shadowrun, or even Catalyst Games. I've seen it with 40k guys in years past, I've seen it plenty over on the Warmachine/Hordes forums, I've seen it with MMO/video-RPGs...but it's just something that mystifies me, every time I run across it.

Gamers seem to expect more from game developers on a forum than most voters expect from their politicians, in real life. Why do we have these wild expectations of transparency, up to and including asking a professional employee to bad mouth their own bosses in public?

I have to agree with Critias. This constant badgering is getting to the point of trolling. Questions have been asked and answered, even if not to your satisfaction. Move on to new subjects. The next time this thread is locked, it will not return just to allow the continued dredging up of the past.

Same thing happened to me. 3 emails over a 19 minute period. No voucher details in any other email.

Damn, I called that one when they asked for the bonds.

QFT

If voters talked with this kind of fervor, our country would be far different.

He's doing his job, and he's coming to the UNOFFICIAL forum to continue answering questions. Be happy with what we can get. Most gaming systems don't get near this involvement.

Making that image even more interesting is that Loren, for whom growing facial hair is not a strong suit, would be twirling a fake mustache with glee. It might even come off, breaking him out of his reverie to glue it back on and resume.

I see a lot of hero worship for the position, a certain respect because Jason is Shadowrun line developer. But the longer this mess gets drawn out, the more attention I pay to the person sitting in that seat and the quality of his message. The quality of his message hasn't gotten any better, spin is spin. The content is still "it's all cool, trust us", and we have been shown nothing yet that we can trust.

Personally, I'd find it to be a bit of karma if the freelancers are getting paid with checks from LLC's personal account.

Long as they get paid..

Who cares.

I would like to see Catalyst actually put forward War! It was really going to be one of the first non-remakes they were going to put out. I'd like to see what the quality of their vision is, when they're not just re-hashing shit.

I just want more shadowrun stuff, and perhaps if the company were a little healthily a more reasonable prices. Most of my shadowrun crew buys the fluff and campaign books to read the in game world stuff. But the 6th world alminac at 45 dollars was more than any of my 5 players wanted to buy. Need cash flow but if cost was down.

I do. I'm a fan of irony.



I'm looking forward to it. I'm hoping it'll answer a decent amount of questions regarding all the military stuff that's cropped up in recent threads.

For those who received an e-mail about getting a Battleshop voucher but didn't get the voucher, there's a new news item up. To cut to the chase, send an e-mail to customerservice.catalyst@gmail.com to get your voucher if you were supposed to have one!

Jason H.