Electronic books being worth X% of the cover price is another example of linear thinking that the market should abandon for the good of everyone. Some stuff is worth more electronically, some is worth less. And I do mean "worth" not "costs."

The problem with value based economics is that something worth a lot to you might be worthless to me. The common denominator is the production cost of the item in question.

I agree with that theory, but we are still mostly a cost driven society here in the U.S. It still costs me more to purchase a PDF then print it at Kinkos for a hardcopy.

The stuff that is worth more electronically is due to added services that create value. I pay a monthly subscription fee for DDI because I get access to an online compendium of all monsters and gear, all of which I could get in hardcopy (and some of which I own in hardcopy). I get a character builder that is updated monthly with changes and errata. I don't need any of that stuff to play the game and none of it I can hold in my hand, but it adds value, so I'll buy it.

Now, if you sell me a PDF with some value-added services, than yeah, I'll pay more money for e-books (I happily pay for book via my Kindle and they are often more than I'd pay had I bought the hard copy) than I do for hardcopies. Right now, the most value added service I get from PDFs is an updated version with errata and I usually have to wait quite some time before that happens...

Now were getting into the information wants to be free bit. I understand WOTC some of the other perfectly downloading and piracy broke the backs of music studios. If you believe check the book value of any number of music companies in 1980 and today. In theory that number should have gone up inflation and so forth. Instead it's way down. The game companies are right for everyPDF they loose x number of sales as for the tracking if you a word for word comparision you will a number of variances between releases in one area and another. As for phone homes probably not but the piracy is a hell of a lot more then when people xeroxed it.

The problem is...
...Repeated studies show that people who "pirate" material, ie download products without paying, go on to spend more money than they would spend otherwise - buying more music, more books, etc.

The problem is, and has always been, that the companies don't listen to their customers and give them what they want - they charge too much, they withhold material, they manipulate figures and markets...
...And everyone loses out - companies and customers.

I would disagree on that myself. Although I suspect people who pirate wouldn't buy anyway. On the price thing you would not believe the reaming I got on rpgnet for suggesting the companies are pricing them selves out of business. It's an opinion but is running wild worth 29.99 or runners companion 34.99 or the non limited l5r 4th worth $60.00 hmm?

You can't count every download as a sale. Personally, some companies have gotten a sale out of me only because I did download.

Eclipse Phase is a good example. I knew it was a pretty book, and an interesting system by a company I wanted support, but I don't buy a lot of roleplaying books that aren't Shadowrun. However after reading through the corebook PDF I became convinced that not only did I want to own a physical copy, but that I wouldn't mind running a game at my local store and seeing what they thought.

Added bonus here is that I can advise my potential players to download the book as well and familiarize themselves with the system before we play. Anyone who's ever lost a game session while everyone passes one copy of the core book back and forth around the table can appreciate that.

Of course. Maybe electronic books should all be priced as Base Price + X, where Base Price is what the publisher sells it for (So, $15 in the case of Eclipse Phase), and X is however much extra the buyer would like to pay, based on how much _they_ think the product is worth.




Right. I do think that's not always based around service, and sometimes around utility. Here's an example of a plain PDF product that I think is worth more than the print version: The Shadowrun Character Dossier. In print, you get 1 16-page booklet. You can use it once, for one character. In PDF, you get 1 16-page booklet, that you can print out in any permutation you choose (print the vehicles page twice, the magic page not at all, for example), and you can use it for any number of characters. It's a $5 print booklet, and $4 in PDF -- amazingly good value, and underpriced.

Searchability, bookmarks, hyperlinks ... these are all things that are worth paying for. You _are_ getting more than the content with an electronic release.

(that's not to say I'm 100% satisfied with the current state of electronic releases, of course.There is more to be done, more things to be explored.)



Compiling errata takes time. Doing frequent errata on PDFs is a lot of work for not much return (especially when only about half of buyers actually sign up to get notified when files are updated! Hitting the "update and send mail" button can reveal some depressing number. :/). I think this especially true for non-competitive games: post clarifications in discussions on forums as issues come up, update an errata file and the PDFs when you do a reprint, and try and keep the print + electronic releases in parity.

Please don't speak for all game companies. I do not fear non-commercial piracy.

I've got it! Let's do this toll-style! The books come with a coin slot, and you have to put a quarter in every time you open the book.

Or maybe a credit card reader.

I used to buy the book and PDF combos of Shadowrun books because I wanted to support CGL. I've had a long time personal policy of downloading a book or hacking a game if I had already bought it in a different format or platform. But I liked the product so much I wanted to give what I could, and I did.

The fact I am no longer doing that brings the topic back home.

PDF thread!

<inserts link to random PDF>

I speculate that CGL and PDF are three letter acronyms and so is IMR!

BlueMax

Don't forget LLC.

It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

OMG !!

A conspiracy of acronyms !!

So when Mr. Johnson back-stabs you and doesn't pay you after the run is that now to be referred to as getting LLC'd?

"Nah, I'm sure the Johnson's legit guys, you saw him transfer the funds. The bank must be slow."


...now I made myself sad.

I thought that, aside from the PDF thing, WotC was doing pretty well with the online thing. I was a subscriber to their D&D service for the eight months or so I ran a campaign and found in incredibly useful. The tools were well-made and worked very well, and at least 25% of the material they released via PDF on their site was worth time to read it (which is actually a lot more than I used to thing about the old Dragon/Dungeon dead tree magazines).

Oh, and I love how a quick search of any BT tracker shows how WotC refusing to release PDFs for purchase stopped piracy of their books within weeks or even days of the street date. Yeah, that worked SO well for them...didn't even remotely force people to turn to piracy for digital versions of their books and lose the legit sales they were getting for absolutely nothing...sure...

Cutting off your nose to spite your face much?

Now, that's not what I was talking about at all. Much more like "tip the chef" than "pay a bribe to get clean glasses"

How did you get to read Apple's business plan?

In the 80's music companies had a large number of quality artists. Now they have Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. Their falling revenue streams have nothing to do with piracy.

Yeah...unfortunately. Can we get back to the days when a band can come in and suggest a 20 minute track,
and NOT get their handler laugh right before calling security and having them escorted to rehab?

"When I was a boy, <insert how things were better>! Now get off my lawn"

Honestly, I love 80's music, but there was a similar crap to quality ratio back then. The worst of the crap just doesn't even get oldies station play time. It just gets forgotten.

Doesn't Dream Theatre have tracks like you describe?
They opened for (Iron) Maiden on the 20th and some of their tracks had incredible length.

I speculate that IMR/CGL will not be able to license the art for Eddie. He would make an awesome SR villain. I know, I've used him.

BlueMax

The big difference between now and then is that the 'service' that the big labels provide is not as essential now as it was back then. Artists can advertise on the web, put videos on Youtube, get reviews in blogs, get playtime on internet radio, connect with their fans on forum, sell through services like CD Baby and iTunes, and print shirts and other items directly.

Plus technology has advanced to where recording and studio production is, compared to then, very cheap.

The sales of the big labels has been eaten away by the proliferation of the indy labels, made possible by computers and the Internet.

Right, as if smaller (indy [sic]) labels earn tons of money today.

I wouldn't be surprised if you added up all the money indie labels make that it surpasses that of the big labels. Instead of having 20 artists under one label, you get 20 artists under 20 labels...I'd have to agree that technology has really changed the music business (you could almost say, any business).

I think the important thing is that at least THIS time we haven't let the thread wander off onto tangents this time around.

No, but look at how many small labels there are. All the little pieces add up. They aren't going to earn tons of money, but they can get enough to stay in business and operate on lower costs than the big labels. Consider Jonathan Coulton. He started out entirely self-produced, selling and distributing music through his web site. Does he make as much money as Lady Gaga? No. Does he have a strong following and earn enough to have a living doing what he loves to do? Yes.

Consider the situation WotC finds itself in. The OGL and PDF sales made for a significant third party market. Allowing for more choice probably increased the general market, but also hurt WotC's sales some since customers could buy a PHB/DMHB and then get supporting materials from someone else.

Theres also a few people that the OGL got us to buy WOTC... I wouldn't have bought any of the 3rd edition stuff other than the PHB if it wasn't for Mutants and Masterminds. And WOTC received several thousand dollars from me thanks to that as I owned all the generic books for 3.0 and 3.5 + FR because M&M made me decided the system didnt have to be terrible, and a few I bought twice to have a second copy.

Speaking as someone who spent a few hours rooting through a stack of books to come up with a cross-referenced argument, I would say that you can make the PDF worth more than the physical book. One of Shadowrun's longest running problem has always been with the index (it's better now), so you couldn't ever find anything. There are also compiled tables, which make the problem a hell of alot worse when something is misprinted, but are very helpful otherwise. If the PDF's were made to be searchable by subject, rather than by keyword or section title, I would have to spend about a 10% of the time I do now to find answers. It would take having someone on the development team going through the books and tagging entries, or something like that, but it can be done. Give the PDF out for free and then charge people for other things to enhance the game, like a 3D battlemap with avatars the players make themselves. Code and information get free, but a continually developed set of services can't, buy it's very nature, get put on a torrent as it's dynamic.

Think of it like webcomics: you can't charge for the comic, but you make money off the shirts, coffee mugs and convention sales.

Actually, there are several web comics that charge for access.

It's not a perfect analogy.

Care to name a few? I'm not familiar with any off the top of my head. Sluggy which I read semi-regular has a donator section with a certain amount but it's not the core comic. Similarly I have the Schlock Mercenary ap for my iphone and do pay a yearly subscription for the privledge but I see that more as supporting the artist and a convenience fee then actually paying for the comic.

If I'm not familiar with a product, I will not buy a copy without checking out a free PDF copy.

The reasoning is pretty simple: Back in the day, I could go to a FLGS, see something new, pick it up, handle it, flip through it, see if I liked how it was written and how it worked. These days, FLGS's in my area, to save costs, only order products they know will sell through, while not taking chances with untested product. Because of this, I do most of my RPG shopping online, because if I'm going to have to special order something, I might as well do it through Amazon or eBay and save some dough. This means the only way I have of "flipping through" a book before I buy it is with a full PDF copy.

I can tell you, in my case, this approach has actually led to greater sales then before I started doing this. I download RPG books on a whim, but most of the stuff I download, I delete within a couple weeks, because it doesn't appeal to me. I downloaded Shadowrun 4th on a lark, having played an earlier edition once a decade ago. I flipped through the pdf, tried making a couple character, toyed with the system...and now I own physical copies of all the core rule books and a couple optional ones.

A couple other cases were:

- I bought a physical copy of the Palladium Game "Splicers" because I got the PDF, I found myself reading and re-reading it.
- Exalted 2nd Edition won me back by me reading the PDFs and liking what I saw.
- The copies of 4th edition D&D that leaked 2 weeks before the game came out got me interested enough to buy the books.
- I have physical copies of every Cthulhutech book, but PDFs I gave my friends got several of them to buy copies as well
- I just ordered a copy of eclipse phase based on reading the PDF and liking it.

In short, Tabletop RPGs don't need to be so concerned about piracy. Gamers want physical copies, something that you can't really do with pdfs the way you could with MP3's, and we're smart enough to understand we have to support games we like. Make a good product, and you /will/ get my money once I find it. Make it easier to find it, and you get my money faster.

That would be the problem with that sort of strategy. Most popular comics that I'm aware of give free access and use advertising for income. Some might have a donor section or other related perks, but the main product is free and what's used to try and draw in viewers.

One area that WotC is actually pioneering a bit is with the idea of subscribing to a game system. It's my understanding that most of the character creation stuff in new books appears in the D&D Insider system shortly after release. So even if you don't have PHB2 or 3, you can still build characters using new abilities introduced in those books.

A company could make a core rule book available to download for free, but provide a variety of GM and player tools that are only accessible through a subscription service, in addition to perks like additional material and PDF copies of new books on a point system like Audible.

The trick would be to balance the point allocation and the frequency of new material, so that subscribers felt like they were getting a deal and the company had a reliable source of regular income. It's essentially how IMR got started, but with the focus on fiction rather than source material.

The closest I could think of would be the Exiern spinoff, Dark Reflections. Free for all to read, but new pages aren't put up unless the donation target is met. Once the target is met, the counter resets, a new page is put up, and the game begins again. The amount isn't much, but someone's gotta pay the man to draw.

A lot of it usually appears before the print release actually. There was stuff in there from PHB3 before PHB3 was even announced.

Yeah and WOTC was trying to sell the electronic PDFs for the exact same price as the print-copy book. Considering when they were selling them their sales were huge a big chunk of the pirated copies were people with dead tree versions wanting an electronic copy. This is from the company that when the game was being planned they promised everyone, "You buy the book, you get the PDF." That sure didn't live long.

Also, WOTC's "Tracking" of the PDFs is bullshit. They pulled that number out of their ass. They wanted to can the PDF distribution and have an excuse for why they didn't live up to their promises in that regard, so they found an excuse they could tell customer service to point to when people complained, simple as that. What actually prompted them to pull it down is people were posting the books to Scrib'd.



Ha ha ha! Good one! You made it sound like in a case of corporation with more money vs. one person with no money that the law actually maters. Ha ha!

Seriously though, they rarely care if what they're doing is legal in a different state within the same country, forget a different country. For example, Microsoft's copies of windows turning themself off if they decide you're copy is pirated is illegal in my state. Has Microsoft started releasing different versions for my state? Nope, same copy, and if it happened and I brought it up do you think they'd say, "Opps, our bad, that was illegal in your state?" Nope, they'd go through the whole court case anyway because they don't even have to win, they just have to dick around in court until I run out of money.

On the flip side, playing devils advocate here, the lays from state to state, country to country, province to province, and territory to territory are so varied that if they did do that there would be a thousand or so different versions of windows for each version of windows that exists currently.



Very true. And while I understand that you can make a PDF more valuable than a print book, there still needs to be a price difference because for a PDF to be worth the same as a dead-tree product you would have to include assets in it (labor time for someone book marking it, creating links, distribution plans, etc.) that equals the cost the publisher saved by avoiding publishing costs involved in a physical book. If the game company making the book ended up saving money on the PDF version, after labor and all other costs are figured in, then dammit I want those savings passed on to me or I'm going to be pissed.



Right. Those studies have found that it's not piracy that causes lost sales, but bootlegging. Bootlegging isn't effected by anti-piracy measures because bootleggers have the same kinds of factories and facilities the original manufacturer will have. Anti-piracy measures do however limit what legitimate customers can do, increase the control the producer has over the product, and increase the obsolesce of what the consumer buys. These three points, IMHO, are the real reason for DRM and other anti-piracy measures. For example, Apple's always loved closed systems, they love to control what you buy, how you use what you buy, and what equipment what you buy works on. Then in the 80's the IBM-compatibles came along, with anyone who could code able to make software for them, anyone who could able to make hardware for them, and then apple nearly died. Now the iPod and the iPhone and the iPad come along and new DRM and greater controls, existing in an enviroment where almost everything's locked down and no one's willing to open things up and Apple couldn't be happier. (And yes, I know they finally removed the DRM from the iTunes purchases, but by the time they did it it didn't matter too much anymore, they'd rode that train as far as it would go.)



Yeah, this is true. The music industry's current problems can largely be traced to big publishing studies used to control the market lock stock and barrel. They used their lock on the market to artificially increase prices. EX: CDs cost less to make than Cassettes. When CDs came out however they charged more for CDs than cassettes and pocket the savings for themselves. What's actually happening now is a correction that's been a long time coming. Whenever you artificially inflate something it always comes crashing down eventually. Blaming it on piracy and conducting a witch hunt you know you will never have to complete and that you can manipulate to get your way is a great, if morally bankrupt, strategy though. The only downside is if people get pissed enough to stop giving you any of their money. And that'll never happen.

Off the top of my head I don't know one I can post here. Back when Project Wonderful was solely a web comic host they had several subscription web comics there.



When CDs first came out in the mid 80's the record labels priced them to make the same profit per sale as they made from cassettes. As the popularity of CDs increased, the record companies realized they could keep the price high even though the price to produce CDs had decreased (it wasn't until around 89 that the price to produce a CD matched the price to produce a tape). They then used that money to hype up the "artists" (most were simply wannabes who were more interested in fame than money) they wanted to be huge stars instead of talented people with long term potential (look at how many one-hit-wonders and never-beens came from the 90's compared to any other decade) since they could pay them less and often trick them out of royalties or other compensations.

What you're seeing as a correction, is actually a shift. A shift from a few big record labels to hundreds of smaller labels. In NYC during the 80's the only time you heard an artist that wasn't signed to one of the big labels was when you were waiting for the train in the subway. Now anyone with a few hundred dollars and half a brain can set up a website and a publish on demand account so anyone can get ahold of their music.



I'm fairly certain they see it as less of a witch hunt they'll never have to complete, and more of a pocket boogie man they can bring out anytime they want to threaten their customers into giving them more money buying more stuff from them.

Joey Manley's webcomics empire -- Modern Tales, Girlamatic, Graphic Smash, and a couple other sites here and there. I don't know how well they do but they've been around for quite a while.

Speaking as someone who's listened to six decades of one-hit wonders, do you have anything to back that statement up other than your gluteus maximus?

Well, I can only speak from a german perspective, but when my Windows XP refused to activate (it was a license I bought from a friend who refurbishes and sells old laptops, so I got the license sticker and all from him, guess the old owner was still using the license as well or something...) all I had to do was call Microsoft support, and many people I know have done the same, as long as you tell them "I know, it's a legal license, I bought it, got the sticker right here!" they will always give you the activation code. They have to, because otherwise, they might be shutting out legal customers who just had the bad luck of their key coming up in a random key generator.

Still, it sucks, and yes, the whole "Windows activation" policy is still illegal or semilegal at best in many countries, but as you said, it's not like if the law would do anything about that.

There are no hard numbers as there are many different definitions for one-hit-wonder, but most definitions put more than twice as many OHWs in the 90's than any other decade.

Not helpful. Ad Hominem.

Hey, not to change the topic, but has anyone been able to confirm Bull's claim to a six month extension? Not to say his word isn't good enough, it's just bugging me that the official announcement didn't list a time frame for the extension.

I just want to make sure things are corroborated and not post con-frenzy hearsay.

It's also what I've heard.

The latter part is one of the weirdnesses that plague the American judical system. Before ... well, coming form the land of ridiculous damage settlement cases, I don't really see what you are laughing about there, though I admit the outcome of a case in America might just as well be decided with a flip of a coin, so it's nothing you really should hope for. Also, needs some sleazebag big-time anti-corp lawyer to back you up, and I imagine those aren't as common as TV serials would have us believe.


In evil socialist countries with mandatory legal insurance, that tactic does not work. Of course, socialism is evil, so this surely is bad in some way. Look at Delta's experience for the effect this has on Ms and it's licenses. Yeah, still illegal, but they'd rather not push their luck in court.


Many webcomics have payable extras though - Drowtales and Penny&Aggie have pay-only parts of their stories. Only page that goes solely for pay, though, is some rather sleazy place called ... Slipscape or Slipstream. Cannot remember the name, but found it a bit of an odd pun.

Slipshine. I'm ashamed I know that.

The rumor I heard, was that the websites set up to sell the PDFs were not reporting accurate numbers of sales and were just pushing out copies of the data. WotC found out on a fluke (twice???), and with no easy solution to the problem just gave up.

The 'twice' part may be an accurate part of what I heard, or it may be a purple elephant marshmallow; often added to rumors due to poor memory/reading.

I kinda doubt that rumor. They could have simply started selling the PDFs on their own site if that really was a concern.