No no, I dig, his manner of discussion in this matter has been very prone to causing escalation. I just want to distinguish that from being closed to discussion from the outset, which in my mind would be an entirely more serious category of issue.

~J

Fair enough. Yes, probably. But he is certainly not helping CGL's communiations problem here (and I vaguely remember this happened like this in the past already ... though not with Aaron).

So is there an actual fan letter being worked on somewhere? I'd like to help with it, if there is.

I'd help if the letter was honestly about fixing problems and not just another "I hate 4th Ed" attempt. I'm getting tired of that. I've really stayed off of DS lately because of the pure bile.

Outside the steaming pile of hatred that has erupted across the internet or flooded every single thread that mentions this book?

Couldn't ask for a better message.

Seriously though, if someone can whip up a simple form letter basically taking the talking points and turning them into bullet points that would do it. Then everyone just print that bad boy out and send it on to Topps. CEOs like bullet points, avoid walls of text as they are easily confused and, like pokemon, will harm themselves in their confusion.

Considering the time frame on Topps having to decide on the license extension, War! couldn't broken out at a better time.

At this point, the only thing anyone could do to salvage this situation is for Catalyst to say, "hey, we fucked up and we're going to fix it. We're going to take all the feedback we've gotten and we're going to redo War!. Look for War! 2.0 by August 2011. If you downloaded War! as a PDF, we'll allow your to download War! 2.0 for free. If you have the hardcopy, cut the UPC off the back cover and send it in and we'll send you a hardcopy of War! 2.0. We promise this kind of a situation will never happen again."

Ah, I see otaku, so this IS about the end of Shadowrun as we know it.

I'm sorry but thats Wishful thinking.It's not gonna happen

with a sad Dance
Medicineman

I must agree. Speaking, admittedly, as an outsider to the world of RPG publishing (but as someone with too much experience with corporate inertia), it's not realistic to expect them to effectively stop sales of WAR! by promising a fixed product within a known timeframe, although errata might do a lot to mitigate the most problematic rules (like, say, submersible aircraft carriers without life support). There's simply no way anyone can sell the decision to sink a product like that. The best any amount of pressure could realistically do is exert an effect on books still far enough along in the future that changes can be made from the outset--and from Critias' posts, it sounds like there are internal forces acting in the right direction we might be successful at attempting to supplement, albeit distantly.

But I get ahead of myself. In the immediate sense, the book in front of us isn't going to change any more dramatically than can be accomplished with errata, and if there IS an updated version, it's not going to be available for free. There's simply no way to quantify the profits from improved esteem by the fanbase into anything that can compete with the loss of a product, and it's counterproductive to expect CGL to suddenly change priorities.

Except that it can be traced back to a small group of people posting and linking the same things over and over.

Most of them from the same former SR4 freelancer who, iirc, has previously expressed a desire to end SR4 as a viable production, which on some level deserves bringing to the attention of everyone sucked in by his admittedly exciting rhetoric.

and that makes me wonder how this game got to be so personal for some...

Speaking of which, do you know how much longer CGL has on the license extension?

It's up for renewal sometime in January, I believe.

It would be nice to pass off all of this as the work of a few grumpy souls and leave it at that, but that's not what's going on here. What is going on here is a systematic abuse of what was once a decently oiled machine.

I think you'll find among the "complainers" that there was a wide range of complaints about previous 4e material. Many of those people have said as much over the grand schema of this "saga". Try looking at say, Cain's posts, and otakusensei's, and Kagetenshi is pretty upfront about his own love for 3e.

The even better part is that there's this thought that the all-seeing, mysterious "Cult of Frank / AH" is behind this - and while I'll admit to being personally upset over the loss of Bobby Derie because of his work here and his work for CGL, it's just a symptom of a much larger disease. Frank? Couldn't give less of a toss. The guy is who he is, a loud, arrogant blowhard that got into fights with everyone with an official tag on Dumpshock. But he had connections, and he had nothing to lose, so he posted stuff that pretty much damned the whole company.

Look, for those of you that think we're just being whiny crybabies: here is a summary of events that go back all the way to last April, to see what CGL - specifically Loren L. Coleman, Randall Bills, and Jason Hardy - has been doing to this company, and then look at what War! and other products post-SR4A have come out looking like. Then, ask yourself: do they really care about SR or its players? Or do they simply care to milk a license while praying Topps doesn't come down on them?

(And yes, that's an AH summary. Suck it up, read whatever bias you want into it, but pay attention.)

There are legitimate complaints about both product and company being discussed here, and passing it off as the work of unsatisfied 4e haters, or some cult of personality, is really allowing the terrorists to win. Or something.

(Tongue firmly in cheek, of course)

Yes a fan letter is being worked on somewhere (I'm sorry I can't give you more details right now, but you'll be told everything as soon as the letter is ready) and I'll let you know when it's ready to be signed and sent, which should happen soon.

It won't be a "I hate SR4/SR4A/CGL letter" it will be a polite letter from concerned fans who have been disappointed by the drop of quality and would like things to get better so that they can keep on buying books.

I've been pretty vocal about my dissatisfaction with the last couple of products..

And yes, I happen to like AH's writing and what I can tell is his understanding of the overall Shadowrun Metaplot. Frank? I hadn't heard of him until 3 days ago. I will say, his writing style is funny, and engrossing. He's clearly an obnoxious blowhard, but sadly.. he's right in his assessment of how bad War! is.

So calling us a bunch of Cultists is really missing the point.
War is bad.. and I'm not sure how anyone can defend it as a whole.
I'm not even so much upset about screwed up Slow spell.. We've had plenty of screwed up stuff in this edition and previous editions. It's not like it's new.

I'm upset because War! has nothing to do with War! It's badly organized, edited, and plotted out.
It shows a complete lack of understanding of the Shadowrun world.

And /that/ is worrisome.

I can't defend the book, because I'm waiting for it to come out in hardback to make my own opinion. I've long ago ignored DS as a stable review platform since I personally liked Sixth World Almanac even though people were saying it was the worst thing on sliced toast.

Though Blade, I would hope that before collecting signatures, you (or whoever is behind it) will allow people interested in it the chance to read it before collecting signatures.

Actually, you didn't do it at all first. Then came Sait Frank, patron saint of cursing sailors, and decreed the author had obvious Nazi sympathies and not just poor taste...

And as far as the antiziganism thing is concerned, how many reports about antiziganism in Eastern Europe did you see in recent weeks? Most people are not even aware of it, how do you expect them to ship around cliffs they don't see?

Of course, though we can't let too much time pass between the time the letter is made public and the time it is sent but I guess we'll have an unsigned written version (companies and individuals pay more attention to written letters than to e-mails) and a signed version online (to show the support it has).

Might I recommend, if you want maximum impact, to send multiple letters. Nothing big. It's numbers that count. Something quick like:

To Whom it May Concern,

I am a dedicated Shadowrun fan and have been following the game for X years. I am concerned that some of the recent products have not met the standards of quality of the Shadowrun line, and I am worried about the quality of future products. What quality should I expect in future products, and what changes are being made to ensure that?

Thank you for your time and consideration,
So-and-so
so-and-so@heartshadowrun.com


That's it. Be polite, express your concerns, leave the power in their hands. The threat is already implied, and the information on what needs changing is available, if they're going to honestly look for it. If someone has a professional, legitimate listing of issues and concerns somewhere, you can link to it, but it MUST BE professional or your argument loses all weight.

E-mail it to CGL or Topps, or better yet, snail mail it. Calling on the phone might be a bit much - these aren't your congresspeople.

It might not be in the Holiday stockings, but I plan on making and posting an entire arc for folks to use as they see fit. I think I've got the background down on it, why they popped the shield over the area since the Awakening, and the consequences of the talislegger shattering the wards. Just need a hair more research (and a map, maps are wonderful) and I think I can buckle down and make the magic happen.

Only real kicker for a setup like this is the relative lack of things for Hackers/TM's to do if they're not dronomancing, but I think I'll throw the module up for a beta when I hit that point and see what folks have to say.

Lots, given how SPIEGEL and other media in Germany covered Sarco's latest attempt to lash out at a minority that'S not overly popular. And a number before. But yes, it may not be very much known to Americans. However, the article explicitly details that there is loads of Antiziganism in Marienbad, before coming up with hey, let's start a progrom.

And yes, you posted that first. Forgotten that.


It's surely a magic heavy module, but recon drones are harder for spirits to destroy. Other than that ... they do what everyone else does: babysit.

Aaron is not a developer, at least not for Shadowrun. Aaron is a freelancer. When it comes to CGL's take on stuff, I have no input. I'm not in the loop, even a little bit (<-- good quote for flaming me, here). Anything I would be able to contribute would be hearsay at best.

I write to the specifications I'm given, and my work is for hire, which means it's no longer mine and can be changed after I submit it. As a work-for-hire, CGL doesn't even need to acknowledge that I wrote it, but in this industry that's considered rude. Sadly, it also means that I take some criticism for decisions that aren't mine; I've been taking it because I find it unprofessional to point at CGL and say, "It was them, not me! Let's get 'em! Yeaaaarrrgh!" =i)

Sorry for the late post, and I don't mean to interrupt the flaming. Here, let me help: if you want to kill me in effigy, I suggest the card game, Let's Kill. We originally put me in there as a victim card, and it stayed in for Atlas's second edition, so if you want to take a cheese grater to my face without all that annoying prosecution by law enforcement, that's the way to do it. =i)

EDITED to add some much-needed smiley faces. Apparently, I came across to heavy-handed (thanks, Doc, for pointing that out).

Thanks for the input.

I have no problems with any of the writers.
It would be like blaming Natalie Portman for Star Wars 1-3.

The line developer sets the required research, the mood for a book. Especially one drawn together from so many writing sources.

It is clear though, that noone asked most of the writers to do anything other than basic research. That most of the writers were not given access to a wiki with a solid metaplot summary, so far on buffy kind of thing.

And when some of the writers wrote stuff that did not fit, or was, possibly ill advised. Noone said, "we can't use this.. because of X.. you got a week to give us something different."

The slow spell, is just.. one of those the wording and the intent of the spell don't quite mesh. We've had that for years. I mean for heaven's sake.. AH brought us the Super-Ghoul Virus, messed up karma Gen, and Free Spirit PCs of "wait what" and he's otherwise a fine author and usually half-way decent rules writer


What bothers me isn't the creeping mondo ism, it's the creeping mondoism that shows a complete lack of understanding of the Shadowrun Universe.

But what troubles me the most about War! is that fundementally it has nothing to do with War.

PS

Hermit.. I think you should take a couple of days from posting in these threads
You're way too upset.

Agreed. I know you claim Aaron told you in PMs that he was perfect and you were retarded for questioning him. If true, that's pretty shitty. Still, if that's how you're going to respond to Aaron's jokingly self-deprecating post then you should probably just put him on Ignore and be done with it.

Of course, I expect there to be warnings and possibly thread-locking once a Mod has their coffee.

I thought the thread locking threads usually came /before/ the coffee

Hermit and Aaron: both of you need to change the tone of your posts. The two of you going after each other is not adding anything productive to this effort.

And for the record I don't drink coffee.

coffee is vile stuff

So were beer and Scotch before I drank enough to develop a taste for them. I'm not saying this is rational but it is funny that my three favorite beverages were ones that I found revolting when I first tried them.

There's a line somewhere between self depreciation and 'high dudgeon', and it gets blurry.

I appreciate that Aaron's a freelancer, and that he's contributed, and that he's responding. However, I don't know Aaron from Adam (not you Adam, I'm trying to drag as few people as possible into this) and Aaron has seemed to be stepping into 'high dudgeon' to me in his responses. I suppose it's a question of decorum and, in a sense, poor word choice.

Were it me in Aaron's shoes, references to being flamed, hated, and suggestion about cheese graters in card games to a passel of folk who are already well above room temperature would be a very bad idea. Word choice on a forum can infer a great deal of unintended emotional response. There's nuance to be had, and perception is limited because we're all just words and smiley faces on a screen to one another. As such, I can see Hermit's bias and understand it PM's notwithstanding. I think the both of you need to stop goading one another, but that's just me.

Aaron's response in the other War! thread regarding nomenclature was a very good one, self deprecation aside, and I'm quite happy finding out that the people who have worked on this latest entry into canon are looking seriously at what we have to say - or some of what we have to say, at least. Critias' continued responses as a fan and freelancer and moderate voice are also very good ones - for someone who doesn't really have a dog in this fight, he's at least trying to take the community's concerns and (perhaps in a futile attempt) get us as a community to constructively criticise. I can get behind that. That's why I posted a basic critique on the SR4 boards upon seeing the suggestion.

Praise for current responders aside, the heat in these threads stems from an endemic problem: This isn't the first time we as fans have seen this. I personally as a fan have now been fooled twice: Once with 6WA's layout errors, and again with War!'s much more pervasive errorset. As the saying goes, shame on me - I fell for it again. Can you see why we might be mad?

Shadowrun is blessed with one hard core fanbase. It is cursed with the same - we are a fickle beast who wants regular and good releases which can be difficult to pull off, and we rage easily. What we crave more than anything else, however, is communication. When we are people and not credit card numbers, beings and not bank accounts, chummers and not credsticks, then we can forgive. When we know that a release is being pushed back to ensure that everything is done right, we acknowledge and appreciate it. When we get a "mea culpa, something happened but it shouldn't again" from those in control, then we reinforce the belief that there is a commitment to quality product. This belief is waning. For some, it has disappeared outright.

United States (Headquarters)

Topps US
One Whitehall Street
New York, NY 10004
Tel: 212-376-0300
(Consumer Relations) Tel: (+1) 800-489-9149
Fax: 212-376-0573

Very well said. This community used to enjoy considerable patronage from the people who make this game. I don't know of any other RPG fan community that had that kind of direct access we used to have to the developers. Hell, most of the people responsible for SR4 (some of the best SR ever produced in my opinion) came straight out of this community. Now between the official forums, a turnover in staff and outright vitriol from some in this community we can barely get anyone associated with the current production process to post here. People bitch about "post editing" and "censorship" on the official forum and then they come here and shit where they eat. I'm all for open discussion, objective constructive criticism and DS remaining an independent fan community for SR, but all this drama is just marginalizing us even more. If we want to have any voice in this we need to come the table with adult attitudes and constructive criticism. Otherwise we might as well just move on to other games because SR isn't going to be what we want it to ever again.

France is not in Eastern Europe. And let's face it, the knowledge most people over here have of anything east of the Oder is "here be dragons. And our stolen stuff". Any knowledge of the ethnic frictions over there is extremely limited at best, and I doubt it's better across the pond.


I didn't, and it wasn't my point. My point was that at first you considered the story as merely tasteless and a sign of sloppy research. Then Frank claimed the writer was some sort of Nazi sympathizer, and you immediately picked it up as the new party line.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if most American knew who Gypsies were.. other than.. "those mystical charlatan guys right? with the hot belly dancer girls?"

On the Venn diagram of world cultural knowledge, the overlap between "most Americans" and "gamers" is not 100%. In my experience anyway.

I would expect gamers to know about Gypsies, it's true.
I mean, Didn't we all play WoD at some point?

Knowing that the French Gov is being a right dick about Gypsies right now? that's more specialized knowledge.
And really, it makes perfect sense in Shadowrun.
Look at Yomi Island, and the Native American Death Camps.

If you're talking about Frank, he's an SR4 partisan through-and-through—see his repeated trumpeting of the fixed-TN system as the best thing since sliced bread back near SR4's release, for example, or his elaborate attempt to salvage the concept of the SR4 Matrix. I've seen him make reference to wanting to cause CGL to lose the license, but always in the context of causing someone else to pick it up, and in the posts I've seen he usually follows with a note to the effect that they just need to keep the bulk of the SR4 ruleset and they'll be fine, IIRC.

If you're looking for someone who wants to end SR4 as a viable production, that would be me. You don't see much activity towards that goal, though, since SR4 itself apparently didn't do the job and I'm at a loss for any way to do it better.

~J

Previous post edited to add smiley faces where they were needed. I'm not mad, nor deliberately trying to provoke anyone or anything. The cheese grater and killing in effigy is true, though: it's a real card game with really an Aaron card and really a Cheese Grater weapon card.

Apologies for raising the temperature. I like answering questions, so I'll pretty much answer any question directed at me as sincerely as I can. I also hate smileys, but I seem to be wrong about not needing them.

I'm also just following the "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" philosophy. Let's face it, I can't win on DSF; I'm not sure anybody can. Plus, it turns out that making fun of myself is fun. =i) I know all sorts of facts I can ridicule myself for (for example, I once told a room full of children that I like babies because they are nutritious =i). That's not even mentioning all of the Very Bad Rules I actually have come up with (and beat myself up for regularly).

Anyway, to drag this back on topic, if I was to contribute to a fan letter to CGL, I would have to include hiring Echo Chernik to do covers as a Good Idea. I'd also ask for more support for Missions, although to be fair living games are hard to maintain (even the Wicked Wizard of the Pacific Northwest is cutting back on the RPGA games).

I've seen stranger - I believe you. And thank you for emphasizing that you're having fun, and not going into high dudgeon.



A lot of folks say you can't understand the emotions of people on the internet. I happen to disagree with it, but one does need to amp up the sarcasm from 'drip' to 'deluge' at times.



I wouldn't say that. I thought you did very well in the other thread, justifying the names selected and acknowledging where there were mistakes. Looking at it, I could see where Shadowtalkers commenting on the Glucke or the Dunkelzahn would mirror the posts and responses given. Which would both be pretty sweet to have seen and would've probably cut down a bit on that thread, too.



Good to mention. The covers have been quite nice - though I'm not terribly sure about 6WA's. Still on the fence about it.

Oh, I know it will never happen, but it would be the nice thing to do. I know no company like Catalyst, or any other game company for that matter, would say "our product really was subpar and we're going to fix it." or "our product didn't work and we'll refund your money." The way it is now, you pay your money, you get a product of questionable use and quality, and the cycle repeats itself.

It they'd at least put out revised (and workable) information for the wonky spells and equipment online that would be something. "Hey, Slow as written doesn't really work as intended. Here's a revised version that we think works better." "The monofilament grenade was missing information about how long the monofilaments stay in the environment. They break down as soon as the current turn is over. Hope this helps." Something.

That doesn't actually make sense, though. If they're so volatile, why did they survive the initial explosion?

~J

What if the grenade was more like a Bouncing Betty?

Maybe it's like this spool of monofilament that's kinda like a spool from a weed-eater - and it has a little gyro and motor in it. You toss this thing, it pops up onto the end like a top, bounces up and starts to spin. Monowire comes out two ends and extends from the spin force until the little battery runs out, and you have this little helicopter rotor of deforestation and death. Once the thing stops spinning, what wire is left gets sucked back into the unit and it goes inert.

What if it worked like that?

Then that would be a necessary additional piece of information, and the "breaks down" theory still makes no sense without it. Can someone post or summarize the weapon description? Does it admit such an interpretation?

~J

It could also be coated in oxygen-activated monofilament-shredding nanites bonded to the filament's surface.

As far as the description goes, it just says it has hundreds of meters of the wire around an exploding core, and that it gets blown into several pieces on detonation.

That's what I like/hate about nanotechnology and nanites in particular. They're kind of like magic in that you can handwave just about anything only this time it's under the auspices of Science!!! "Any sufficiently advanced technology..." and all that.

But why? Why would any company make a grenade that could be re-used (with a new battery) destroy an expesive and vital component like that (by using Yet Another Expensive Component)?

Ähhhmmmm,,well,sorry but we're a little bit offtopic right now

HokaHey
Medicineman

I would recommend discussions regarding grenades, seamen, et al. be moved to other threads. Some people on Dumpshock are taking a go at being productive for a change

And to give my post some actual value, here is the address for CGL:
Catalyst Game Labs
PMB 202
303 91st Ave NE, E-502
Lake Stevens, WA 98258

IMO, I would be more inclined to write to CGL than Topps. I have NO knowledge of the industry, but it would seem that talking to Topps (and thereby implying a revocation of the license) is closer to the atomic option. If someone else gets the license, we're most likely looking at Rigger 4, followed immediately by 5th edition.