Personally, I'd like to see Posthuman Studios pick it up, or maybe Tinker and Smith.

I'm not in charge of telling people when to complain or not. I think people are overreacting and being far too cynical and willing to tear everything down just because of their ingrained mistrust of CGL (which may be warranted, I'll grant.) What if there are people who actually LIKE the book, do they get to have their opinion just because others don't?

By the way, my logic was getting tired of the "trend of terrible books" trope, when I'm only seeing one here. ONE is not a trend.



Bull. The fandom is crying open rebellion over one book. Declaring the line is dead, and already starting to snipe on freelance writers when they don't even have any control over it. I'm not saying that they're afraid of the fandom being a little snarky. I'm saying they're afraid of possibly publishing one book off and this happening. And also? The utter and complete cynicism and negativity here on DS and trying to be fermented in other places is doing more than just worrying the publisher, it's scaring off players who actually care about the game and potential new players. THAT is killing the line far worse than a book that's poor quality.

This is what we call a straw man. I haven't seen anyone declare that the line is dead. I haven't seen any sniping on freelance writers, just the editors. And scaring consumers away from shoddy products is a customer service, not a negative act. If you really believe that, I have a Ford Pinto to sell you.

The only one proclaiming doom and gloom is you. I'll grant that some harsh words have been fired at CGL, the company; but that's different than proclaiming the death of Shadowrun. Like I said before, Shadowrun has survived changes of companies before. I'm sure it will again in the future.

Depending on whom you ask, the trend started with War!, Sixth World Almanac, Corporate Guide or Vice... Well, you also find some people you would tell you it started with Shadows of Europe or Year of the Comet.

Don't forget Ghost Cartels, which really needed work.

Except I've seen more threads in favor of 6WA, CG and even Vice; War! seems to be the major one where the people have been lining up to call it garbage. And if you're throwing FanPro books in, that's also a little shady, don't you think? I thought this was about how CGL is taking a dump on the line, although thanks for bringing up those books, since hey! Those were supposedly shoddy books but people still bought them and I didn't hear that it was the end of the world for the game, that there were massive boycotts or hope that a new publisher was found. Hell, people were more complaining that YotC was late more than anything.



'
I don't mean scaring customers away from shoddy products, I mean scaring people away from the game as a whole.

And there has been plenty of sniping at the writers, I can point to the arguments against Aaron IN THIS VERY THREAD as well as several completely subjective arguments that hermit had been using from the beginning towards "the writers". And what would you call comments like "if there's anything left to pick up when CGL's done with the line."?

It is not just the one book. Runner's companion looked rushed as did Running Wild. I don't even mind the poor state of the pdfs like they did with SR4a and then going to back to fix issues and letting us redownload the revised copy. It is once it is printed that I have a problem.

Like RC-1138 "Boss" likes to say: 'One is an anomaly, two is a trend'.

And yeah, my major concern with War! and sending a letter, is in hope CGL will listen and shape up. I mean, Attitude and possibly Spy Games probably are finished as we speak (or perhaps they are still in editing and proofing stage, which I hope it can still be fixed).
And 6WA was 'frustrating', at least to me, I had REALLY high hopes of that book and in the end I think it could have given so much more...
Vice I liked, though.

I don't know, Shadowrun players and Dumpshockers especially seem to be the most independent, defiant, trend-bucking demographic I've ever met. I would be surprised if a single person on DS did not buy the book who otherwise was going to because of all of us talking about boycott. Likely the negative reviews cost a lot of sales, but that's not boycotting (and I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't give a shoddy product negative reviews).

Come on, why do we just form our own company and produce books?

We could also have blackjack! And strippers!

Diversification of revenue stream! It's the wave of the future!

So far TJ hasn't been banned. So? It's just that there don't seem to be many. Not even Medicine Man does, and he's usually really eager to defend anything SR4.

You act like any complain is something like a sin and vile and must be stopped. What about people who actually do not like War!? Do they have to be silent so things are not oh-so-cynical and you feel unwell? Yes, you are in no position to tell people whether to complain or not. But you do. Why?

Nobody said that but you. And writers are well repsonsible for what they write and hand in. Because the writers are the ones who wrote this, so they have to live with it being critcised. That's part of the publishing process, see. Public reception.

I don't see where you're going. We should write smashing reviews of War!, in the hope that it will somehow magically make future books better? In the hope that this somehow will not happen again?

Nice shot across the Bow there Hermit...

Not everyone has the same opinions as you do. Yet it seems that you are adamant about marginalizing those who do not actually agree with you. There are those who find that offensive...

Yes, you like war!, and are not banned, as he claims all those who love War! are. Which is the point I was going to make.


And there are those who find your constant baiting offensive.

Already forgotten CorpGuide and 6WA?

No issues with either of those books either, so nothing to actually forget there...

The current debate is not contributing anything to the efforts of those who started this thread. If you would like to contribute to the letter writing campaign thats great, otherwise please take the "CGL is ruining SR" debate elsewhere (there are numerous other threads).

I would also note that posting here repeatedly just to tell everyone that you don't think letters will work can be considered trolling and will be treated as such from this point forward. Your opinions are noted. Move along.

Thanks!

Sloppy prrofreading, layout issues ("damn, why is the scrolling so slow...oh wait, the page did already finish loading, it's supposed to be half empty"), fact checking issues...everything (well, except political worm cans) people complain about in War!, only significantly less severe.

If the problems of CG and 6WA had been fixed in the next release it would have been a blooper. In fact I believed this to be so, given the circumstances of the books' birth a suboptimal product was at least understandable, and I was confident that the stabilization of CGL's situation would also be reflected in the book. Instead it got even worse. And that was what prompted me to write a letter, the fact that the line is deteriorating and not just having a bad apple in the bunch.

Or you could just raise your hand in the "What's up with Shadowrun?" talk.

I'm only writing this quick because we've already had colored text telling us to cut it out. Hermit- I'm not trying to get anyone to change their opinion. If it's a terrible book then fine. Hell, I wasn't even the one trying to say the letter writing campaign was a waste of time. If you'd actually bother to read what I write, I said I supported it. What I didn't support was the apocalyptic type of talk that prompts things like Cain talking about a registered boycott, trying to harm the company, etc. I don't really care what you think, I just think the bitter and cynical tone that things have taken here are not healthy.

So ... you basically call me responsible for Cain being Cain? That's a bit bewildering. He was like that far before me.

And why pretend everything's shiny when things clearly are not? A few more books like this and maybe a 5th Edition like this, and Shadowrun's done for. That's how it is.

Maybe it'll be done for you, and that's fine. If you think my trying to calm the cynicism and bitterness before THAT is what ends up killing the game is bad, then fine. I shouldn't have to say this one more time. I support the letter writing campaign. But I guess 'cause I'm not bashing everything that just keeps getting ignored.

Last warning.

Actually, given many of the people I've encountered, that seems like it could be a very, very bad idea. Unless it's someone who is intelligent, eloquent, eager to push balanced discussion, preferably with a question prepared beforehand, I see the potential for it just reinforcing the lack of communication we're seeing.

Make questions sessions seem like protests and they'll stop having questions sessions - but probably still won't listen to your protests.




I disagree with you about the practical effects. As has been pointed out, the license has changed hands twice. It still has a very major following. Transitioning to a new company can and has been handled quickly and efficiently, with a significant increase in quality. The worse option is degrading the brand name over time - that's actual damage to Shadowrun which is difficult or impossible to repair.

The major caveat to that is I'm not especially attached to CGL or SR4 specifically. If you are, keeping the line in CGL's hands is clearly beneficial. But definitely, the concern is 'CGL/SR4 vs. Other/SR5', not 'Shadowrun or no Shadowrun'.

Shove the passive agressiveness, please. That, not you not bashing everything, makes you go unnoticed.

Also, if you buy anything CGL produces, CGL has no reason to change it'S ways before it'S too late. Eventually, many people will not buy SR because CGL thinks putting out crap product is fine - in a line that has a reputation for high quality, or had - and less and less people will be interested. THAT will tank the line. Certainly not complaining so the company egts off their arse and does soemthing (or the license goes to another, more capable publishing company).

Done: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34010

MADNESS!!!

Although that would be more polite and likely for a Canuck like me to do...

I just want to write this quick -

I still support the letter campaign. If I had a little more time tonight, I'd c/p the letter and do a quickie edit. Don't have that time.

But I am done arguing with everyone. If you don't support the letter, if you think everything is fine, cool. Then go do something else.

If you're like me and you support the letter, take a copy of it, print it, and snail mail it out to the proper folks at Topps.

Beyond that, I think the best thing any of us can do is continue to do what we love with Shadowrun and just let it all be settled. Me? I've got a brand new game to plan for, some stuff to think over for Data Haven, and I've been thinking of doing my part with the Sixth World wiki.

But whatever you decide to do, do it because you love Shadowrun, not because some dood on an internet message board called you a bad name or distrusts a company because they've shown that they're willing to screw everyone else in order to save face and make money. Remember, remember, April 2010 and all of that.

Just saying.

My statements to the contrary, one bad book does not make a pattern. Yeah, there's been some issues with previous books, but they were what they said on the tin. War! wasn't.

I'm going to wait and see before I put in my two cents.

And, frankly, I have it on good authority that all media is going to hell in a hand basket when it comes to quality control... Why should RPGs be any different?

I mean, have we seen a game come out recently that HASN'T had a patch for it a week or two after release recently? *Shakes Head*

Some issues -> Many issues -> Not a trend?

Yeah, but they don't patch RPGS
and they certainly don't patch them for free.

Errata is a kind of patch.

When's the last time we saw errata for a CGL shadowrun product?

Errata that CGL doesn't seem to want to release.

I have it on a pretty good source that if Smith and Tinker took over Shadowrun, they'd nuke the setting and start over from ground zero

Posthuman already caught flak for mixing too much transhumanism into Shadowrun, so they just made EP. Good game, I'd rather they keep their eye on that ball and not water down their talent spliting up dev and writing on multiple games. And who's to say, since they've all been down the SR road, they want it back?

And who's supposed to buy it? What for?

Still all for Pegasus, myself.

Presumably, the same people that bought D&D 4th edition, or nWoD, or any other such massive revamp.

Either way, I don't find it terribly surprising. Current Shadowrun is fairly different from what Weisman originally wrote.

Why yes, let's destroy twenty years of history - which we should be celebrating more of, Catalyst - because it might make it more popular.

This current trend of nuking deeply historical worlds because "metaplot ruins my games" disgusts me. Honest truth.

Two years ago me probably wouldn't have wrote that sentence in regards to any world, honestly.

ETA:


Again, IMO, I appreciated this, muchly. Too much doom and gloom in some settings nowadays, and as I've said on here before, I know some people, especially among the transgender crowd, that really appreciated it too. It doesn't take much to include everyone, y'know?

I wish I had the money to pull together for the hardbound EP book - and the space

I, for one, wish they had mixed in more transhumanism. I like EP but I also think SR could use some of the same concepts and not just be aping EP. I don't like the idea of SR avoiding certain technologies or themes just because they are identified with transhumanism. One of the saddest things I saw in the developer chat regarding War! that AH leaked was when Jason Hardy said something along the lines of "we shouldn't do anything that looks like transhumanism because EP has that covered."

Agreed... Shadowrun should really be including a great deal of Transhumanism at this point...
Oh Well, nothing stopping em from doing that at or Table I guess...

Seeing as how SR started on the Gibson & techno-dystopia trope I can't fathom why it doesn't have more transhumanism in it. Hell, throw in the magic factor and that amps up the whole concept (whether it be necromancy, transmutation, or a combination thereof). If anything, removing transhumanism from the plot line erases many of the key concepts of the genre. The question of "what is human" is still relivant today.

The question "what is human" is even more important in a world full of orcs, trolls, elves, ghouls, vampires, wendigo etc.

I think adding the techside of transhumanism to SR is somewhat ... well, let's say that for us "mere humans" exploring and expanding the limits of our race is more interesting than for any human in the Sixth World (who is thankful that he hasn't transmogrified to a four-armed monkey or Obsidiman – yet).

Meaning: The question "what is human" IS or SHOULD BE one of the central motifs in SR – but not necessarily in a technobabble way.

Agreed, but while D&D 4 found customers - and D&D is the opposite of a setting-driven game - nWoD lost far more fans than it gained. Also, SR has strayed considerably from Weisman's ideas, but whether straying even more from them would fix this is ... doubtful.


+1. Also, it doesn't do the systems much good either. It's just lazyness of the writers, so they don't have anything to read up and can just start over (with writing of sub-par quality, if Hill and Wich are any indication of the talent of current nWoD writers).


Indeed.

Truth be told, I'm quite tempted to ask the question come GenCon Indy. Frightningly, I have the feeling that it will still be an unresolved question in the coming eight months. There's a quality issue that now exists. While we have word from some of the freelancers that it's being looked at, in the next eight months we will have several releases that will lend support to one camp or the other.

Will I purchase another product? That's actually fairly likely for me, however it will be for different reasons. I've left off buying these books for the fluff and crunch, and now am looking at it as a research project - I'm judging the company by the fruits of their labor, and in Indianapolis come the first week of August, I will be on hand to ask "Why did the editing process miss these problems?"

What remains to be seen is will it involve just War!/6WA, or subsequent releases?

Is this established somewhere? That's not meant to argue the point, that's me being honestly curious. Is it personal experience with you and those you know that leads you to that, or was this mentioned somewhere (like WW saying sales were way down, or something of that sort)? I'm asking, because I wasn't an old WoD player (was too busy with SR and BT), and came into only around the Time of Judgement/birth of the nWoD. I've actually enjoyed most of the nWoD (though to be fair, I haven't looked at anything from the last year), so I was wondering what had led to that statement.

I don't have hard numbers but I do know that White Wolf was not selling product at the most recent GenCon and I overheard lots of "how the mighty have fallen" conversations. I'm the opposite of you, having played a lot of old WoD and then stopped entirely with the change-over to nWoD. The manager of my FLGS complained that nWoD books don't move at all and he's had the same stock for the last year.

So, that's pretty anecdotal but my impression has been that a lot of fans didn't make the transfer from old to new and I would expect that, should Shadowrun do the same sort of reboot, we would see a similar splintering of the SR community. Hell, we've already got splintering between the various editions, imagine the wailing and tearing-of-hair if there was a complete reboot.

The people who run Posthuman, when we worked on Shadowrun, "caught flak" for everything, and were giving praise for everything. As is the nature of working on a widely-loved game.

Trying to say that the transhumanistic elements of Shadowrun were part of some sort of downfall of Shadowrun is an ... interesting perspective. As is implying that we were failing at Shadowrun, so we "just" decided to go off and make a completely different game.

I, for one, Absolutely Love what was done with Eclipse Phase... Congrats on an amazing product...

Eclipse Phase is one of those games that I will pick up when funds are better, unfortunately.

As far as WoD goes, apparently the reason that White Wolf didn't have a "true" booth at Gencon was that they were trying to advertise more for their convention down in Louisiana this year. That's the scuttlebutt I picked up. I haven't been a WoD fan since the Time of Judgment and from what I've picked up anecdotally, the fans have dwindled.

No hard proof to back that though, sorry.

As the others have said, mostly anecdotal references, but I also read an article that WW sales have gone down with nWoD. Now if only I could *find* that. Generally, my FLGS also complained sales of WoD are down since the changeover to nWoD.

I too while not wanting to threadjack have to say love the stuff going on with eclipse phase