Well, just make it an arbitrary chemical (or even the wire itself) which makes it dissolve within x time on air contact.

Also note that the stuff in grenades and the monowhip is called monofilament, the security measure sold at 1000:nuyen:/meter is called monowire. So the explaination that these two are different kinds of nanotech would be perfectly canon.

Let's please stick to the topic. I'd live to see the monofiliment grenade discussion in another topic. Thanks!

No Mr Bond
I expect you to die.

I dunno. Maybe the fluff can state the monofilament is spooled in the grenade and when it pops off the filament breaks down into a crap ton of inch long pieces of monofilament peices firing through the air. After the explosion they are so dispersed that they effectively cease to be a threat or something. Let the writers figure out the fluff to go with the crunch.

The point is, the crunch in a book like War! that is full of broken rules and half-thought out ideas can be fixed after the fact thanks to the internet. Catalyst can say "this rule is broke. Mea culpa. Here's the replacement for that rule/spell/stat." That's not as satisfactory as getting it right the first time I admit, but it's also a hell of a lot better then hearing "well, the book is out and we made a great product and you can always houserule it."

I wonder the same thing. I love Shadowrun but sometimes it seems to run very deep with some people.

For someone like me, it's because I grew up reading the books but didn't get to play until the 4e, which was the first ruleset I actually understood. That means that I missed the FASA and the Fanpro days, and I kind of wish I hadn't. So now I try to be as active with the community as I can, but as I laid out in my last post, I have severe trust issues with anyone in the management department of the company.

Folks like Aaron or Patrick or anyone else? No real ire. I know what it's like being the guy on the firing range, thanks to the insurance company work I've done. I don't envy what they have to deal with right now. I've always made it a point to distinguish unless there's been someone directly involved in a Stupid Decision.

I'd love to see Dumpshock return to something resembling decorum, but right now, it ain't going to happen. It's as much the fans as it is the "circle the wagons / there are no Americans in Bagdhad" tack that CGL has chosen to take.

Anyway, the real reason I'm posting once again is to stress that snail mail letters work much better towards getting a company's attention, especially if they're something that needs to be signed for. For Blade and anyone assisting in this process, ya'll should take a page from the PK Siege efforts Starmen.net took to try and get Nintendo to release Mother 3 here in the States. Sure, it hasn't worked, but there's been proof that very important people have been listening, and it's more stubborness than anything else keeping the game out of Western hands.

I hope that wasn't too off-topic for you, mods?

It does, yes. I can't explain it. It seems absurd that after five years (going on six) I can still get legitimately angry over SR4, for example. Maybe that's what happens when you make something beautiful—sometimes people fall in love with it.

~J

My man (Or woman)

I have been playing Shadowrun for 18 years now. I understand how beautiful and awesome the setting is. I was there when 2nd edition was a First Printing.

And yes, some of the direction of Shadowrun bothers me these days. I must admit, I am in no way mad at Fourth Edition Shadowrun. I actually think the rules work quite well (Even if somethings were not thought out).

But it has gotten to a personal level that sometimes borders on obsession. It is a little strange to be honest. I love Shadowrun very much, enough to own EVERYTHING that has come out for it just about. OTOH, I do not feel the need to attack freelancers, stomp on their religion, call them Nazi Sympathizers (Uh, man, this is the worst. The Holocaust was horrible but so was the Armenian genocide, the Belgium treatment of the Congo, etc... Let us not damn people) and the such as I have been seeing. That is some harsh stuff for a game.

I just think some of this has went WAY too far. I would almost say that it would be good for CGL to lose Shadowrun soon just because of how jaded and pure hateful some of the fan base has become towards them.

And then again, sometimes CGL does not really help their case at all.

As much as I think even mentioning places like Auschwitz is a mistake, it's the whole reason it was included that irks me. Yeah, chock full of angry ghosts, got it. Sensitivity issues aside, the whole "use it for a dungeon crawl" think makes no sense at all. There's literally nothing there to plunder. A few wooden buildings? A shower? Some old canisters of Zyklon-B? Those aren't really magical artifacts that someone wants.

Now, if the author would have said Desert Wars 12 is on and Egypt is all in turmoil but some rich guy wants something really cool from the Pyramids/the Sphinx/somewhere in Cairo or a museum in Bogata or something like that, well that's not so much of a stretch. At least with the pyramids at Giza or the Sphinx or some Aztech temple that archaeologists just found there's some possibilities, but there's nothing at Auschwitz.

The whole Auschwitz angle was just a bad idea that should have been nipped in the bud or at least redirected by Hardy.

Hear, hear.

I make no secret of the fact that I want sone people out of their current positions and the game in different and better hands. By that I honestly mean that I would love to see Jason Hardy spending more time with his family and working a well paying job that he loves doing, but one that will mean his name never appears as Line Developer in another Shadowrun book. That's pretty much it.

You don't have to love this game to freelancer for it(but it helps). You do however have to have a line dev who loves the game, and I doubt Jason's vision.

I don't know if Dumpshock will ever become the defacto official forum again. I can't say if it's URL will ever grace the pages of another Shadowrun book. But I don't think that's going to happen with CGL in charge, and with people who love this game and can smell their own reading the content coming out of CGL and finding it lacking.

But if anyone thinks a letter will help(and I think it will), that letter needs to be one of as great a number as the fan community can produce. It needs to be targeted and it needs to be on paper. The management of CGL got themselves into the mess partially because they had a near total disregard for the mail, so letters should be sent to Topps.

Once this is over I hope that things can calm down and we can go back to talking about terrible ideas in books by people who, though we may disagree with them, are at least capable of proofing and editing to a level that makes the book appear finished at publication.

My hope is that with fan corrections we will be able to change some of the glaring errors before the book is sent to print. I don't know if it has gone to the printers yet, but it seemed the last 3 pdfs had a significant lag time between the electronic and physical product.

Has gone to printers. Jason Hardy also has a well documented habit for not including free lancer corrections, let alone fan ones.

Whether the books are in the state they are because Jason is unable to produce quality product, or because his bosses are forcing him to release these books before they are done, the fact is that War! is going to stay in the state you see it in PDF for a very long time. Perhaps for the entire run of Shadowrun being made at CGL.

Thankfully they are only licensed to write for the game, they do not own it. With any luck someone else will be chosen by Topps to address the quality issues and lead the line into the next edition.

Even if CGL wanted to, they probably couldn't. AFAIK printers are hired long beforehand and if the master copy doesn't show up at the specified date, you will have to compensate them for the time they did nothing. Plus the second date where the book actually gets printed, which will be somewhere in the future when the printer's schedule allows. Same reason why PC games often see their first patch a week after the original release, missing the factory's deadline is worse than any premature release.

It's too late to fix War! now, it's probably even too late to fix some of the upcoming books. The problems are at a far too fundamental level for any easy fixes. I know, I'm sounding like a doomsayer, but how else are you going to describe a book where even a rough content sketch yells "this makes no sense"? Where editorial oversight and proofing was either completely absent or did not do their job? Where according to Critias' posting the scrambling for solutions only started after the end customers pointed out what everybody in the loop knew(c'mon, they're not blind)?
Hate to say it, but I'm beginning to believe the guys who think CGL will go belly up are right. Vice was a bit meh, but every line books which don't raise the bar. Corp Guide and 6WA were bad, but excusable given their troubled birth. War! should have shown some recovery and fighting spirit, instead it's WAR!-terloo.

So after 9 pages, is there an actual letter about how we care?

Well, we have some addresses, and uh, some complaints. And um, I uh...

Shit.

Ah, internet, what a fickle beast ye be.

So it starts out with ARGH, NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO OUR COMPLAINTS, but as soon as someone lets you know the complaints are being taken seriously, it's ARGH, NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING UNTIL WE COMPLAIN!

There is a big difference between a freelancer coming out and saying that things are happening and people are listening, and a book like War! being put up for sale. Last year CGL asked the fans to take a lot on faith, and though I wasn't ready to do that then they have not in the intervening time given the fans much evidence to base that faith on.

The problem is.. we should never have had to complain.

Have you /read/ War yet Critias?

I know you can't answer the real questions. Even if you hate War with a passion, you can't afford to piss off CGL.. as they give you money

But still, read it.. if you really think it's a fine piece of work, and not representative of the overall quality of the CGL Shadowrun line to date.. then keep on defending it. But if you dont.. stop shilling for CGL.

See, that's where I think we need to focus. There seems to be some kind of movement to turn this into a three-sided fight between groups that are perceived as (whether they are or not...for reference, they aren't because it is never that simple): CGL apologists, Trollman and trollish cronies, and well everybody else who isn't aware and just hasn't picked the "right" side yet. I don't get this.

This is a pretty solid idea. Write a letter from the fan base who chooses to participate (also key, don't presume this in any way representative of the fan base). Voice clear, concise, polite points of criticism with recent products. Be willing to provide backing information as/if requested. Keep it short, simple, and make sure it is sent to both CGL and Topps. Make it public online. Make the statement clear, devoid of personal axes to grind, personal distaste, and keep it entirely focused on issues with product quality. Make sure it is made up of common points that the majority of this fanbase (who participate) can agree on. But after 9 pages, are we any closer to that? Or do we just have another thread that keeps that non-existent three way fight going on?

Examples of what not to include:

1. There's still varying opinions on everything that went down before. Keep out references of line developers needing to find another job, specific people "ruining" the game, losing too many people that were essential to the game, etc. Keep it limited to what you can show, in text/product that is an issue.

2. Personal tastes on Bogota, or the trees, or the response to the Artifacts adventure series, etc. It's too meta involved for Topps, and way too easily prone to state personal opinion as fact, when you're covering what is highly subjective material.

Examples of what to include:

1. Formatting and proofreading issues. These have been covered in detail for WAR! and other recent products. Go side by side and check errata counts between other similar SR4 products, so we can see how the total count of fixes matches up. Be willing to enclose lists of some examples if necessary.

2. Lack of updates for PDFs. If there's info to back this up, this should definitely be included. (I honestly don't know if there is, but I remember seeing it mentioned several times in this thread.) It has been mentioned that later print runs of some products have had errata incorporated, yet the PDFs are still not updated. That begins to look (whether it is the case or not) like the company is trying to force a repurchase of a product that was noted as being updated.

3. A very calm, balanced note about the concern of what is perceived (whether it is or not) as a lack of central editing, which resulted in some questionable material (the Work Makes Freedom section) that has discomforted/upset portions of the fan base. Don't delve into specifics here, simply note the concern as whether editing process/control could use some revisiting.


Just keep the heat and personal attacks out of it. There's common ground here, whether you're a <sarcasm> Gaming Den nutjob, fellow Mormon conspiracy nut at CGL, Dumpshock greybeard who doesn't want 1995 to end, and so on <end sarcasm, remove tongue firmly from cheek>. Let's actually focus on that common ground to get a message out there. Let's not be just one more fan base that has a world of complaints, with no actual drive to get a shared, community message in place. Or let's just go back to the bickering, I guess.

I understand that, Sabs. I'm a consumer, too. I've been buying and reading Shadowrun books since I bought the core SR1 book with leftover Christmas money, as a middle school kid, early in 1990. I'm not any happier with basic spelling and grammar errors than anyone else is, trust me (heck, I recently wrote a grad school critical book review where I called a manuscript "amateurish" and "sloppy" because I found six such errors in a 300+ page book). Try to remember it's some of my work going through the conveyor belts next, and I want people to read it and enjoy it, not be unhappy with it once they've got it in their hands.

I'm just saying, you guys have to admit it's kind of a Catch 22, here: when you're not hearing that anything is being changed, it's riots in the streets because no one is paying any attention to the loyal fans and future products are going to suck. When you do hear that something is being changed to try and make sure future products look better, it's riots in the streets anyway because ZOMG now they're "scrambling" to make changes too late to do any good.

I'm not happy that folks aren't happy with War!, obviously. But all I can do is try to let folks know they are being heard, and that there are changes being made. I had nothing to do with War!, I'm just reading it same as everyone else is, and sharing some writer knowledge to try and show that criticism is being listened to, conversations are happening on the freelancer boards about it, and we're all working together on some new peer review and editing stuff...and then I'm getting that thrown in my face.

I can either laugh about that a little and point out the irony, or just stop posting and go play video games or something.

I'm glad you guys are working on peer review etc, although if the Line Developers aren't involved in the process and onboard with it, then no amount of peer review is really going to make a big difference. (run on sentence for the win!)

I've been playing shadowrun since literally 1989. I have (REALLY BEAT UP) a 1st printing 1st edition Shadowrun book. I spent years playing Shadowrun and CP2020. I loved 1st edition, I liked 2nd Edition, I never touched 3rd Edition. (I was playing the game that shall not be named (is that D&D or WoD?) ) I came back to 4th edition. And it's overall pretty good. The Matrix rules still suck, but at least they suck in a completely different way than the original matrix rules. I have some quibbles, I miss the difference between Mages and Shamans. That being said, there's a LOT I like about 4th Edition.

But what I'm seeing:
a FAQ that hasn't been updated in god knows how long.
Changes in later printings to rules that have never been errated anywhere.
An increasing amount of editing and proofing errors.
Starting with 6WA and really blatantly with War
A feeling the developer does not know, care, or respect the 20 years of metaplot and history behind Shadowrun.
That the developer couldn't be bothered to understand the fundementals of Shadowrun Magic and Physics™.
And especially with War, I feel like we were told.. we're going to make Latkes, with applesauce, they'll be delicious, and instead we got instant mix pancakes made with water.


Sorry for the Shilling comment, it was uncalled for.

Not really, no—I don't think you're interpreting the reactions properly. The issue is that these are problems that should have been internally visible prior to public outcry, and while recognizing that change is needed is better than not recognizing it, the fact that it was necessary to wait for public outcry is an entirely different bad sign that casts doubt on the effectiveness of the changes.

It's true, in a sense, that the company can't win now. The thing is, though, that's not because they were caught from the beginning—it's that their opportunity to win was back before the book shipped, or at least back before the public outcry started.

~J

These are understandable to a degree as CGL was bordering on bankruptcy not long ago, and keeping those updated are work that give little to no sales.

They are more likely to be updated while freelancers are deep in writing and there are no books on the final leg between layout and printing.

So before any of the "new" product (in terms of what seems to be the common parlance here, that WAR! is the first book developed after all the freelancer changes*) came out the company was going to convince folks that have continued to show an outright hostility that things had changed? That they would be won back before there was even this new product to look at, without the baggage and bias they've publicly proclaimed time and again? That's a heck of an awesome mental manipulation spell. Where does my mage get one?

Mistakes were made, that's been clear. I'm not quite sure how that factors into a prescient way to wave your fingers and say "all fans are now happy forevermore."

*I'm not even sure that common parlance is quite accurate. Attitude appears to be the book that was developed much more from the ground up, under the hated new crew.

I made my case for trying to put common issues and points of criticism together in a useful message. Apparently, things haven't changed much here, and circular complaints and bitter infighting to establish "sides" in this fight is still the norm. I'll head back to lurking again now.

Time is an important issue here. I stopped being a CGL fan boy over a year ago when this whole mess started. At the time Jason had been line dev since Gen Con. CGL worked through a back log of the material they had, dealt with the stuff they lost and we called that Corp Guide and SWA. Both of those books have been slammed partially for being written by CGL, but also for real clear legitimate problems. CGL has stated that they are aware, but in the time between has no made no apparent effort to rectify the situation.

Then War! gets published. Though the idea was originally floated before Jason's time, it could be safe to say the idea was originally floated when Field of Fire was planned. Jason was placed in nearly full control of bringing this book to fruition and the product that he chose to make as current ultimate creative authority of Shadowrun was War! as you see it in PDF.

So if I'm not exactly ready to pull the Catalyst shirt back out and stump for them at the FLGS again, I hope you can understand. Things might change, but I'm going to guess they won't. And as fans of the "Buy it or don't, it's all you can do" philosophy are fond of pointing out, my saying one thing or another on one forum or another isn't going to change anything at all.

But I hope that's not true. I love this game to much to let go like that. So let's get a draft letter together.

Er, no. What I mean is, that was their opportunity to not put out a book filled with editing problems, and by extension not have people all upset that the book is filled with editing problems. Alternatively, it was their opportunity to realize that their process was creating books filled with editing problems, and have begun to modify their process without needing to be spurred by public outcry.

If your assertion genuinely is that they would need to have looked into the future to have found that the book was insufficiently proofread, well, I don't think there's a coherent conversation that can be had here.

~J

CGL doesn't have to convince anyone of anything to make this go away and bring back the halcyon days that we all used to complain about in the halcyon days of the forum. All they have to do is put out a quality product, and that will do all the work for them.

That is a completely honest statement by someone who has made it his goal to point out as much as possible the situation at CGL. They just need to meet my personally stated level of quality, SR4A.

A third author has popped up on the official forums apparently, and aside from still not realising Bogotá, despite being a city in South America, really is not surrounded by Jungle and actually very elevated and mountainous, promises he noticed fans being angry about grammar and spelling errors galore, and thus now, being already an accomplished writer but also willing to learn, he will try to make the best writing he can produce even better by paying more attention to grammar. Seriously. Isn't having mastered the language, grammar included, a basic skill among writers? Or at least, shouldn't it be?

It's like an airplane engineer saying "so I noticed that many users of my planes are unhappy about them exploding in midair, so in the future I'll design my planes so they don't regularily spontaneously explode, to make the best planes I can design even better".

I'm undecided if this is hilarious or sad, really.

I know, I know, snide comment, but really, I hope this is not what Critas was referring to when he meant that there were things happening in CGL. And really, CGL needs someone not totally incompetent at communication to communicate for the. But even more, CGL needs to produce something that isn't so totally damnable as War! is.

You think it would be tacky to send CGL a world atlas with elevations and topography?

Yes.

Meh, Bogota is surrounded by rainforest in Shadowrun, sure. It's pretty well established that after Amazonia worked their rituals to re-grow the forests, it got out of hand and kind of engulfed the entire damn upper portion of the continent, to the point where they had to burn it back from the cities in contravention of their tree-love. I forget what book that was in precisely, but I believe it was Fields of Fire?

So saying "OMG Bogota is a jungle!" doesn't surprise me terribly. No, it's not a jungle now. But there's also no awakened nation *causing* it to be surrounded by rainforest now. So that's hardly an issue, especially when compared to "Why the fuck do we care about Bogota at all?"

I wondered about this as well. But unless the magic that grew those forests is on the a level many times larger than the one that maintains the barrier around Tir Na nOg, it's going to have trouble maintaining that much jungle that close to the city. I might be reading the terrain and sat images wrong though, and we're assuming that Bogota is in the same place as there has been no mention that it was moved for whatever reason.

http://goo.gl/maps/jw57

Well, in the same passages it was talking about how the jungle was so awakened that the elevation of various areas in Amazonia were changing by several hundred feet over the space of a month or two, with the implication rivers changed places as well. The shadowtalk indicating mapping software went out of date every two to three months, because the landscape was so changed it wasn't recognizable. Given that level of magical power, I have little problem assuming the general laws of forest growth have been subverted to hell and back.

even if it was rain forest..

it's rain forest at 2 miles elevation through super cragy mountainous area.

It's.. not the same as the basin.

Yeah but he's saying that if there were physical changes to the terrain the area may be basin now. At some point someone said "It's magic!" and since War! doesn't have a map we have to take their word for it.

Unless the map in 6WA has elevation indication. Or a book between War! and the growth of the rainforest has one.

They're just continuing the tradition FanPro started with some not-lowlands in California abruptly dropping into the sea in the SR4 core book.

~J

Exactly that kind of shit. Eventually, even *I* have to give up and say "Augh, it's fucking magic or something."

I'm still 1/2 of the opinion that if it wasn't published by FASA it's kinda crap

Except of course.. FASA had a few goose eggs themselves.

Not everything early is gold, but I peg the line at… I want to say Shadows of Europe, but I can't find a chronological list. Anyway, that book and everything after it form the "Liber Non Grata" as far as SR3R is concerned, and we just pretend they don't exist.

~J

Just curiosity, but I thought SoE was pretty well received..? Or is this some 3e holdout thing?

Like I said, honest curiosity at work here.

I don't have my copy on hand (and I didn't rebuy it in PDF, natch), so I can't review the details, but I know it included the genesis of the awful WMI idea. I think I had more objections, but it's not entirely impossible that the WMI connection and lack of stand-out good material caused me to shift back one book from SotA:64, which absolutely needed to go. IIRC I pegged SoE as the beginning of the world-feel migration towards SR4.

SotA:64 got tossed as soon as it came out, more or less, and I didn't buy Shadows of Asia, but it wasn't until SR4 thoroughly derailed my canon-following that I went back and tossed out the rest of the Liber Non Grata. It wasn't a rejection-on-sight like :64 was (or like War! appears to be for some here).

(Hopefully my memory of the timeline here is all accurate.)

~J

Wait, what? There's a distinct possibility that I've only really used SOTA '64 for the adept chapter, cop chapter, and spy fluff...but I'm pretty sure the other big chapter of it was trendy European magic crap. What's the WMI connection?

I think he was talking about Shadows of Europe, in answer to the previous post.

No no, the WMI was SoE. I bring up SotA:64 mostly because its social adept rules got me comfortable with the idea of creating the Liber Non Grata to begin with.

~J

Got'cha. My misreading. I was trying to picture some major WMI revelation crammed somewhere in shadowtalk about Orxploitation or the Urban Brawl scores for the year, and just scratching my head.

Of course, decking via cellular networks has been possible ever since Matrix.

Sometimes I wonder, given how similar the books are in content and structure - was the working title for Unwired Matrix:Reloaded?

I much prefered SR1 to SR3 (I know, I'm weird)

Except for the poor Adepts. Its the one thing I like about SR4.. Adepts aren't painfully weak.

Back on topic for a moment: even if the letter is going to be signed by members of the community I'm looking for someone to "represent" the disappointed members of the American/English speaking community.

I'm looking for someone who isn't and hasn't been working for CGL (though some involvement such as playtesting, commando work or refused proposals isn't a problem), who doesn't have the reputation of hating SR4/SR4A/CGL/Jason Hardy, who has been disappointed by War! and is ready to be the "spokesman" of the American/English-speaking community.
Someone with a deep involvement in the Shadowrun community or whose name is well-known in the community (and by people at CGL) would be better, but isn't necessary.

Is anyone interested?

It might be now, because CGL basically has the choice between either risking the fan's wrath, or throw the release schedule and organizational structure into turmoil again when they just survived the last upheaval.
But what lead to this situation were certainly not logical inescapabilities. What lead to this situation was either the complete absence of an organized planning and review process, or the planners and reviewers spent their time with youporn and googling their names. And no, I'm not throwing that in YOUR face, or in that of any of the writers.

I would do it, but I don't have a copy of War! and have no intention of buying it just to find out.